The Danish Cartoon - pretext to war?? !!??

Hobbes

mike65 wrote:

So there we are then, show respect or get blown up and if you have been blown up then you'll be very,very careful now.

Thats some jump of logical conclusions I've seen in a while. So your saying if there were no July bombings they would of posted the cartoon?

Nuttzz

Hobbes wrote:

Thats some jump of logical conclusions I've seen in a while. So your saying if there were no July bombings they would of posted the cartoon?

look at it another way, if there weren't Muslim suicide bombers there wouldn't be any cartoon....

fly_agaric

"Norway has declared war on Islam"

:eek:

mike65 wrote:

Morning Ireland had an interview with a bod from The Observer newspaper, the fact of UK media not publishing these pix came up. He suggested the media in Britian was sensitive to the feelings of Islam..............after the July bombings.

So there we are then, show respect or get blown up and if you have been blown up then you'll be very,very careful now.

Mike.

Lets hope (or pray:) ) they get cracking on a reformation or two before they all have nukes and genetically engineered plagues to unleash on the unbelievers who insult their religion!

Vangelis

Vangelis wrote:

Where is free speech in a caricature?

I think the more appropriate term is the right to freedom of expression.

Hagar

Suff wrote:

Why dont we all print a sketch on the people who died in 9/11

And who killed them? Let me remember... Ah yes Muslim fanatics.:mad:

I suppose there wasn't a single cartoon in any arabic papers gloating and taking immense pleasure in the atrocity at the time?

The so called "peaceful" Islamic people are showing their true colours now. What hypocracy.
It didn't take much to send them into a violent frenzy did it?

Suff

Suff wrote:

the so called Holocaust

:eek:

Suff wrote:

unlike the "west' as you put it where it seemes they have lost respect for everything and nothing is sacred to them!!!

:eek:

Hagar

Where's Walt Disney when you need him?

mike65

Hobbes wrote:

Thats some jump of logical conclusions I've seen in a while. So your saying if there were no July bombings they would of posted the cartoon?

First off, that was the journalists linkage not mine second, yep I suspect the UK media is 'scared' of any potential backlash. "Finsbury Mosque goes to White City" sort of moment.

Mike.

Wibbs

What are you basing that on? People get death threats all the time. A previous class of my masters course recieved death threats from Christian groups for a class project ffs. They just don't make the news, and it doesn't fit into our idea of what western society is, yet it fits perfectly into our idea of fundamentalist Islam.

How many many of your masters course had to go into hiding? How many needed police protection? How many were killed? Go further, how many are killed by Christians world wide in defense of their faith? How many Buddhists? Now compare and contrast to Islam. The difference with that culture/religion is that the threat is all to often carried out, so if the cap fits...

So according to some Mad Mullah(c) in Norway FFS "Norway has declared war on Islam". I truly hope it's not the start of open season on non Muslim Norwegians then. France, Germany, Uk, and Holland to name but 4 does not bode well however.

Vangelis wrote:

The death-threats are horrible. But what else can one expect?

Civilised behaviour from the so called religious. You ever notice it's the most Quran thumping beardy types that are the first ones to call for revenge and bloodshed. Not the secular.

Hobbes wrote:

Thats some jump of logical conclusions I've seen in a while. So your saying if there were no July bombings they would of posted the cartoon?

Yep that's exactly what he's saying. You've pretty much said it yourself

It is considered offensive to insult Mohammad in Islamic religon. The west has known about this for years, clear examples Rushdie and the Miss World pagent in Nigeria.

Replace offensive with dangerous and you're singin' from the same hymn sheet.

fly_agaric wrote:

Lets hope (or pray ) they get cracking on a reformation or two before they all have nukes and genetically engineered plagues to unleash on the unbelievers who insult their religion!

Sadly that's unlikely, although many Muslims are trying. The mechanism isn't there unfortunately. There's no strict heirarchy for such a reformation to trickle down from.

dloob

Just to give some background
A writer of a book in Denmark had trouble getting an illustrator who would draw
Muhammad.
Any illustrator approached was too fearful for their personal safety.
The paper sent out an invite for illustrators around Denmark to send in
their images.
They accompanied a piece on the dangers of self-censorship and Islam.

Isn't it ironic that the first reaction of the followers of Islam to a suggestion that their religion is violent, is to grab the guns start rioting and issuing death threats.

The BBC says it is going to broadcast the cartoons as part of their news story about this.
So expect more uproar.

Hobbes

Hagar wrote:

And who killed them? Let me remember... Ah yes Muslim fanatics.:mad:

Ok how about a cartoon showing Jewish people dying in ovens with a German flag over it. That will go down well no?

Come to think of it, I recall a certain morning time presenter (Kate Lawler) on Channel 4 being fired because she said "I know Hitler was evil but he had to of been a great leader". Over-reacting?

Hobbes

Wibbs wrote:

How many many of your masters course had to go into hiding? How many needed police protection? How many were killed? Go further, how many are killed by Christians world wide in defense of their faith?

This has been covered before, but don't you remember Christian fundies posting the names and addresses of Abortion doctors and thier families and telling people to go kill them. Or ones that have had acid thrown at them. Or how those that had Anthrax letters sent to them? Or how about those going for an abortion having thier pictures taken and then harrassed at home?

Saying that Violence is more connected with Islam is a fallacy and one I wish you would not keep spouting over and over.

Davei141

While you have those crazy groups over in America (mainly), that will try to blow up abortion clinics, you have MORE people supporting peoples rights to have an abortion in said country. A country that is predominantly christian. A newspaper in Jordan (i believe) printed the cartoon and said "lets not over react" or something to that effect, and guess what? theyre facing prosecution.

Zombrex

Davei141 wrote:

You think people think its acceptable when its christian nutjobs as opposed to islamic?

No, I think people have the good judgement and restraint to not tarnish or scape goat the entire western Christian population with the views and actions of a tiny fundamentalist minority, mainly because we are part of that society and we can see that we are not all like that.

I simply would assume we should do the same for the Muslim world.

It troubles me when people talk of "Muslims" as if the very nature of being a Muslim means you are predesposed to being a violent fundamentalist psychopath suicide bomber.

We know from first hand experience that being a Christian doesn't make you a fundamentalist, and that being a fundamentalist Christian doesn't mean you want to blow up abortion doctors.

Yet we speak of Islam as if every Muslim is given a Quar'an and "Sucide Bombings for Dumbs" book at birth.

Zombrex

mike65 wrote:

First off, that was the journalists linkage not mine second, yep I suspect the UK media is 'scared' of any potential backlash. "Finsbury Mosque goes to White City" sort of moment.

Mike.

I think you might have missunderstood his point.

He wasn't saying we aren't going to publish the cartoon because we don't want to anger the Muslim nutjobs into another bombing.

He was saying that we have to be sensitive to be seen not to be jumping on, or condoning, a anti-Islamic band wagon when tentions are already high between the two communities. A similar restraint was shown in the US by the more liberal media outlets after 9/11 when violence and negative propaganda against Muslims, and simply people of Middle Eastern origin, sky rocketed.

fly_agaric

Wicknight wrote:

tensions are already high between the two communities.

LOL. Which side do you think needs to calm down more, eh?
Yeah, them crazy Danes and Norwegians. They really need to get that whole Viking thing out of their system and lick whatever boots need to be licked so they can sell dairy produce in the ME again.
Maybe the government could shut down the newspaper and chuck all the staff in prison. That would show they mean business.

Davei141

Wicknight wrote:

No, I think people have the good judgement and restraint to not tarnish or scape goat the entire western Christian population with the views and actions of a tiny fundamentalist minority, mainly because we are part of that society and we can see that we are not all like that.

Of course, but if jesus was drawn being buggered by a panda, you would hear stuff like "christian groups condemn joe soap for his distasteful drawing". You would not have every leader of every christian country demanding an apology from the government of the country, over a cartoon in a tabloid newspaper! You wouldnt have boycots issued by governments, you wouldnt see flags getting burned because of cartoon in a paper.

It troubles me when people talk of "Muslims" as if the very nature of being a Muslim means you are predesposed to being a violent fundamentalist psychopath suicide bomber.

As i said before, the one muslim country that printed the cartoon saying not to overreact, is being prosecuted by the government of the country. Nobody saying theyre all suicide bombers, dont start putting words in peoples mouths. But its a fact that muslims hold religion extremely sacred, and the fact that there was riots because of reports that a koran was flushed down the toilet in the US, now this nonsense, over flushing a BOOK and drawing a CARTOON. Theres flag burning and boycotts in over 10 countries, there was a take over of the UN building, the person who drew the cartoon is in hiding, the paper has extra security, there was bomb threats, fatwahs issued for danish soldiers...Sorry but i think we are past the stage of "its only a tiny minority".

We know from first hand experience that being a Christian doesn't make you a fundamentalist, and that being a fundamentalist Christian doesn't mean you want to blow up abortion doctors.

Of course, but if we didnt have proper education available who knows?

Yet we speak of Islam as if every Muslim is given a Quar'an and "Sucide Bombings for Dumbs" book at birth.

What do you want me to say to this? Weve heard the "its only a tiny minority" thing plenty of times, how many more times do we have to hear it? You can tell me again when somebody dies over this cartoon.

Zombrex

fly_agaric wrote:

LOL. Which side do you think needs to calm down more, eh?

Well if you had properly read my post you will see I was talking about tensions in the UK, but then the issue of who should be blamed is largely irrelevent to calming tensions don't you think.

Wibbs

Hobbes wrote:

Come to think of it, I recall a certain morning time presenter (Kate Lawler) on Channel 4 being fired because she said "I know Hitler was evil but he had to of been a great leader". Over-reacting?

Did she go into hiding because of death threats from ultra orthodox Jews? Did the British have to recall diplomatic staff from Germany or Israel? Did anyone accuse her of declaring war on Judaism. Nope.

Saying that Violence is more connected with Islam is a fallacy and one I wish you would not keep spouting over and over.

It's a fallacy as far as you're concerned. Ok, Fair enough, that's your view and you defend it well. Can I not be allowed to defend mine? Spouting that it's not, over and over again doesn't make it correct either. Selective editing to suit either of our views does not a cogent argument make. Something we can both be challenged on. The difference is I'll generally respond and show historical/religious/cultural reasons to show why the perception we have of Islam is the way it is, while others seem to hide behind cultural relativism and say everythings OK. I repeat, I don't think every Muslim is a nutbag. Not by a long shot. I think that as a faith, in the context of the modern world it is one that has vastly more violent/primitive tendencies than the rest. Contextually, in the past this of course was not always the case. Today it is.

Anyway if I'm so wrong how come it seems the whole Islamic world seems intent to jump on the violence/retribution/overreaction bandwagon and prove this point right, time after time after time.

Davei141 wrote:

Theres flag burning and boycotts in over 10 countries, there was a take over of the UN building, the person who drew the cartoon is in hiding, the paper has extra security, there was bomb threats, fatwahs issued for danish soldiers...Sorry but i think we are past the stage of "its only a tiny minority".

Exactamundo.

Zombrex

Davei141 wrote:

Of course, but if jesus was drawn being buggered by a panda, you would hear stuff like "christian groups condemn joe soap for his distasteful drawing". You would not have every leader of every christian country demanding an apology from the government of the country, over a cartoon in a tabloid newspaper! You wouldnt have boycots issued by governments, you wouldnt see flags getting burned because of cartoon in a paper.

Actually, you would -
http://www.gainesvillehumanists.org/potter.htm
My fav quote...

PENRYN, Pa. (AP) - The police department has refused to direct traffic at a YMCA triathlon because it says the club promotes witchcraft by reading Harry Potter books to children.
Penryn Fire Police Capt. Robert Fichthorn said the eight-member force voted unanimously to boycott the 20th running of the triathlon, scheduled for Sept. 7.
``I don't feel right taking our children's minds and teaching them (witchcraft),'' Fichthorn said. ``As long as we don't stand up, it won't stop. It's unfortunate that this is the way it has to be.''

Davei141 wrote:

Nobody saying theyre all suicide bombers, dont start putting words in peoples mouths.

Hagar wrote:

The so called "peaceful" Islamic people are showing their true colours now. What hypocracy. It didn't take much to send them into a violent frenzy did it?

Clearly not ... :rolleyes:

Davei141 wrote:

Sorry but i think we are past the stage of "its only a tiny minority".

You do know there are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world?

How may Christians have burned Harry Potter books alone. Thousands by my count.

Davei141 wrote:

Of course, but if we didnt have proper education available who knows?

Thats kinda my point, that our preception of the Muslim world is based on our lack of knowledge and stereotypes rather than reality.

Davei141 wrote:

You can tell me again when somebody dies over this cartoon.

157 abortion doctors have been killed or injured since 1982 in the US alone. Thats over 6 a year on average. Would kinda imply there is something far more fundamentally wrong with the teachings of Christianity wouldn't it? When Muslims are killing 6 cartoonists a year get back to me

fly_agaric

Wicknight wrote:

Well if you had properly read my post you will see I was talking about tensions in the UK,

Ok...your comment makes more sense to me now that I am paying attention!:o Sorry about that.

Wicknight wrote:

but then the issue of who should be blamed is largely irrelevent to calming tensions don't you think.

Yes, but a good question is how far do you have to go to get a quiet life? So far it seems the governments involved will have to apologise (grovel) and "punish" the journalists involved or they may have to face the consequences from some of Islams' less peaceful avenging angels.

Wibbs

Wicknight wrote:

Actually, you would -
http://www.gainesvillehumanists.org/potter.htm
My fav quote...

Class, pure class.:D Muppetry thy name is blind faith.

tracert

Davei141 wrote:

As i said before, the one muslim country that printed the cartoon saying not to overreact, is being prosecuted by the government of the country. Nobody saying theyre all suicide bombers, dont start putting words in peoples mouths. But its a fact that muslims hold religion extremely sacred, and the fact that there was riots because of reports that a koran was flushed down the toilet in the US, now this nonsense, over flushing a BOOK and drawing a CARTOON. Theres flag burning and boycotts in over 10 countries, there was a take over of the UN building, the person who drew the cartoon is in hiding, the paper has extra security, there was bomb threats, fatwahs issued for danish soldiers...Sorry but i think we are past the stage of "its only a tiny minority".

Regarding the Koran being flushed down the toilet; you must admit that it has a bit more significance than that of a simple book to Muslims. And it was done to humiliate Muslim prisoners, now, wasn't it?

mike65

Guardian readers speak http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/organgrinder/2006/02/cartoon_controversy_to_publish.html#more

Mike.

Davei141

Wicknight wrote:

Actually, you would -
http://www.gainesvillehumanists.org/potter.htm
My fav quote...

PENRYN, Pa. (AP) - The police department has refused to direct traffic at a YMCA triathlon because it says the club promotes witchcraft by reading Harry Potter books to children.
Penryn Fire Police Capt. Robert Fichthorn said the eight-member force voted unanimously to boycott the 20th running of the triathlon, scheduled for Sept. 7.
``I don't feel right taking our children's minds and teaching them (witchcraft),'' Fichthorn said. ``As long as we don't stand up, it won't stop. It's unfortunate that this is the way it has to be.'

I miss the part where the christian world is up in arms. Listen, the crackpots in america drive me fecking crazy, i go into a state of anger everytime i read some bull**** that offends them. Harry Potter is corrupting the minds of children, cmon...I think we all know how retarded those nutters are. Its hard to argue against this, my blood boils even thinking about them, but would you see that ****e outside america? Everytime theres some retarded organisation like "Christians against satan potter" (fiction) and if theyre in europe is usually americans trying recruit. Harry potter is huge all over the world, now if theres some little crackpot organisation thats all you can get, its not really comparable to loads of countries burning flags and whatnot.

Clearly not ... :rolleyes:

Dont see suicide or bombers in that post?

You do know there are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world?

Do you know how many muslims are in poverty? Do you know how easy it is to manipulate an impoverished person? The only thing they have is religion (people in poverty). And look at the amount of imams or whatever theyre called, just listen to them, not all, but lots of them say some scary ****, look at the power priests had in this country over the years.

How may Christians have burned Harry Potter books alone. Thousands by my count.

In america, cmon, is there any other places besides america? They have every kind of nutjob, never out of stock.

Thats kinda my point, that our preception of the Muslim world is based on our lack of knowledge and stereotypes rather than reality.

My point was with proper education, they wouldnt be so quick to freak out. I heard a guy on the news talking about muslims over reacting, he was a muslim in authority, he had a sensible head on his shoulders, lets put more people like him up on a pedestal. The problem is, there will more than likely be people gathering around some crackpot with one hand saying these cartoons are a declaration of war on muslims.

157 abortion doctors have been killed or injured since 1982 in the US alone. Thats over 6 a year on average. Would kinda imply there is something far more fundamentally wrong with the teachings of Christianity wouldn't it? When Muslims are killing 6 cartoonists a year get back to me

And the majority of americans are in favour of abortion, and as i said before, america has every crackpot under the sun. And to be honest, the biggest problem is twisting of religion, in america, theres about 1000 different branches of christianity, each one crazier than the next. Look at the amount of people of "religious power" preaching different things from the same religion! The so called knowledgable people of both religions, spouting true bull**** only a crackpot would be proud, the biggest problem is, theres more poverty in islam than christianity. Hence why i believe it has more of problem.

Davei141

tracert wrote:

Regarding the Koran being flushed down the toilet; you must admit that it has a bit more significance than that of a simple book to Muslims. And it was done to humiliate Muslim prisoners, now, wasn't it?

Of course, but the facts are, it is a book. It was done to humiliate muslim prisoners that is correct, but the prisoners in question were supposed to be fanatics, how do you get at fanatics? you **** all over what means most to them. Ive grown up as a christian, and ive never read or cared about the bible. No book will ever provoke such a reaction from me, i guess because im more of a film man.;)

BuffyBot

Come to think of it, I recall a certain morning time presenter (Kate Lawler) on Channel 4 being fired because she said "I know Hitler was evil but he had to of been a great leader". Over-reacting?

Ermm, I don't remember that and can't find any mention of it on the web. She was on RI:SE until the last show, also so wasn't sacked.

Captain Trips

Vangelis wrote:

Where is free speech in a caricature? Surely, they could have printed the article WITHOUT the caricature! And they wouldn't have ended up with so much annoyance. The article would still have been good and created debate. But now, in many Muslims' eyes, they are war-mongers.



Fun isn't it.

I think that a caricature is the essence of free speech - the ability to take the piss without meaning severe fatwa insult. Should every British comedy or that episode of the Simpsons with Milhouse saying "careful Itchy, he's Irish" be banned? Or is it simply because part of growing up and being an adult is accepting that other people may have different opinions to yours.

Declaring fatwa on Denmark and Norway is like the IRA declaring war on Channel 4 and sending death threats because of Father Ted - a caricature TV show.

In fact, if it wasn't for the caricature element, it would have simply been an insult. Adding the humour means "well we're not being serious obviously".

What's a bit irritating is that we can't see what way this is being spun in local Islamic TV stations. Every news broadcaster has a certain angle, so is the angle trying to incite hatred against Danes over there? Or has it all been taken as a good old chummy joke.

Regarding the Abortion issue: this is a little far ahead. Discussing life and death of unborn children is one to get worked up about (right or wrong depending on your opinion), but we are talking about a cartoon here, not 22 month old foetuses and the rights of mothers/teenagers/whatever. It's too much to compare the Christian "fundamentalist" regarding abortion (a very serious matter) and the ISlamic fundamentalists and a cartoon, IMHO!

BlitzKrieg

Should every British comedy or that episode of the Simpsons with Milhouse saying "careful Itchy, he's Irish" be banned?

I think your missing the importance of timing...

the simpsons episode where Liam Neeson guest stars as a catholic priest was put back because it was due to air when the Previous Pope passed away.

Similar there is an episode of Star Trek the next generation that was not shown on British Television because it stated that the IRA won the torubles in the North and this was going to air while IRA bombs were going off in London.

These are changes made because while one can drool on about freedom of speech, their is a sense of practicality and common sense, what does one gain by p*ssing off or offending people, what does one gain in even risking it if its even a small chance.


Now those appear as small nuggets compared to the sh*t cake mixing here.

But.

Timing must be understood. The Muslim faith has caused and recieved a hell of alot more crap over the past few years, with the war, the difficulties with Muslim immigrants intergrating in European countries, with it's association with Terrorism and so on.

And yes this cartoon comes out and appears to be adding another piece to the 'war' they feel western society is throwing at them.


Why are the Muslims screaming at the Danish government? Because thats how some parts of the muslim world assume the problem can be removed. In SOME Islamic states newspapers are controlled by the government, others are small groups or individuals staying in denmark, who think if something offends your faith you turn to the government to protect it (Which has been the way of the PC brigade for years and is a large part of how american politics work. The NRA have done it for decades)


I look at this thread and i am seeing a US and THEM mentality. Sh*t like this does not go off like a nuclear bomb. It rolls like sh*t, it stains and drips its way across the arsecheek of the world. one part of Islamic community is offended complains to government, government says no! (stating freedom of Expression) another part picks it up by the wrong end, overreacts thinking Danish government is giving them the finger. Western community see's this and thinks the Islamic community is giving them the finger (over something small) and passes the cartoon around. All the other parts of the islamic community takes a big irrational dump. And we are left with this unholy mess.

Yes i think the newspaper should apologise, but i think the islamic governments should apologise to the danish government, and someone should explain to the islamic people that the newspaper and government are seperate entities, it would make everyone all happy duvvy. But it will diffuse the situation enough.

Did she go into hiding because of death threats from ultra orthodox Jews?

have you thought the cartoonist might be overreacting? Did he go into hiding because he had a threat more genuine and real then any of the other threats mentioned on this thread here. Or did he think that a threat from a Muslim means terrorists are defitnally gonna chop his head off with a sword?

Do you think that maybe just for a second that the reason when someone recieves a death threat from a christian fundamentalist and doesnt go into hiding is because the image we have of a christian nutjob is not a threatening as a muslim one and those people laugh it off


EDIT:

some things to throw in:

WIKIPEDIA wrote:

Further misinformation spread among Arab Muslims include claims that Jyllands-Posten is a government-owned newspaper (it is privately owned) — the spokesman for the Danish delegation Muhammed al Samha, and delegation member Ahmed al-Harbi said in the Egyptian newspaper al-Ahram: "Jyllands-Posten, a newspaper belonging to the ruling Danish party — an extreme right-wing party — [was] publishing drawings and sketches of the prophet Muhammad."

explaining why the attack was focused at the government.

GypsumFantastic

Wherever there's a gooky story floating around, you can be sure there's a Mohammed somewhere in it.

Personally, I relish the embarrassment, and subsequent reaction, of Islam on an international scale lest there be any doubt about its nature.

One thing does puzzle me. Muslims always assure us that Muhammed was merely a prophet 'just like Moses and Jesus' (they're so reasonable, doncha know). So presumably they get just as hot under the collar about Life of Brian or the Last Temptation of Christ? No?