The Danish Cartoon - pretext to war?? !!??

Zombrex

Great post Blitz

GypsumFantastic wrote:

Muslims always assure us that Muhammed was merely a prophet 'just like Moses and Jesus' (they're so reasonable, doncha know). So presumably they get just as hot under the collar about Life of Brian or the Last Temptation of Christ? No?

"Just" a prophet as in not the son of God .. he is still the most important person in the Islamic faith ... would Christians say Mary was just a woman? :rolleyes:

BuffyBot

would Christians say Mary was just a woman?

Well, ermm, yes - some of them have a bit of an issue with the veneration of Mary.

Some Muslims however hold Mary in high esteem. Mad mad word, huh?

GypsumFantastic

Wicknight wrote:

"Just" a prophet as in not the son of God .. he is still the most important person in the Islamic faith ...

Why? If he's just a prophet, like Jesus, as they tell us? Why is he more important?

Wicknight wrote:

would Christians say Mary was just a woman? :rolleyes:

Yes. Have you heard of the Reformation?

Zombrex

GypsumFantastic wrote:

Why? If he's just a prophet, like Jesus, as they tell us? Why is he more important?

I really wish you would stop saying "just" with everything :rolleyes:

Muslims don't say he is just a prophet, you do. To Muslims he was the prophet, the big cheese, the prophet of prophets.

Christians say Jesus was the "king of kings" after all, so you wouldn't say Jesus was just a king now would you.

GypsumFantastic wrote:

Yes. Have you heard of the Reformation?

Yes, I also understood it :rolleyes: Protestants still hold Mary in very high regard, they just don't think the was a virgin (well some of them don't).

Suff

Wibbs wrote:

Anyway if I'm so wrong how come it seems the whole Islamic world seems intent to jump on the violence/retribution/overreaction bandwagon and prove this point right, time after time after time.

IMO and I'm not trying to genrelise things here...to many Muslims minds talking doesnt work anymore....sad i know...they have tried the talking route many times in the past on anumber of issues but it always seems to fall on deaf ears....so they start using Violence as it does seem to grap the World's attention.

this is wrong IMHO!

However staing that Islam is violent is very silly, sure look at the Christain teachings [that no one seems to follow these days] and you would see it more extreme than Islam!

the point I was making in regards to the west...it seems to me that the west does'nt hold anything holy or sacred anymore! everyone can have a go at Christ or Moses....no respect to these figures anymore?

but if we make fun or challange the Holocaust it's a crime in many EU countires, France and Germany for example. you can attack any figure you want publicly but cannot say "Boo" about the Holocaust!!
or in the USA were they had to remove the Twin towers shot in SpiderMan! and in the Simpsons coming Boxset they will remove the Twin towers in "Homer Vs NY" !!!
ok we have to be Sensitive and give respect to the people who died in these event but what about religious icons? its ok to make fun and insult them!???

Freedom of speech my ****!

Zombrex

Davei141 wrote:

I miss the part where the christian world is up in arms.

Thats because you don't view the thousands (hundred of thousands?) of fundamentalist Christians in the western world as the "Christian world", which is kinda my point.

For a Martian looking down on earth there is very little difference between the rows over Harry Potter, abortion, evolution etc (ie Christian issues) and the problems with the Muslim world.

There are protests all over the Islamic world, but how many Muslims are actually going nuts, out of the 1.2 billion? There were protests all over the Christian world over abortion or something like Harry Potter, but how many Christians actually went nuts, out of the 2.1 billion?

When something like this happens the nut jobs and fundamentalists have a field day, no one is denying that. Its just like they do in the western Christian world. Yet when it happens in the Islamic world we see it as the entire religion up in arms because we believe all Muslims are pretty much all alike in the way they think.

So if a hundred people go on a rally in Gaza over this, shooting guns in the air, that means "Gaza" is up in arms. Which ignores the fact that 99% of Gaza didn't go nuts over this, even if it really pissed them off. If a thousand people in Jordan burn western flags in a market, that means "Jordan" is really pissed off. And so on and so on until the entire Islamic world is seemingly up in arms over this.

Yet if the Pennselvanian police department refused to direct traffic to an event organsisted by a group that reads Harry Potter to kids we don't assume Pennselvainia is pissed off about Harry Potter, we assume that some people in Pensselvania are a bit nuts.

If the Kansas school board votes to remove evolution from the teaching of biology, we don't assume that the state of Kansas are all fundamentalist nut jobs. We assume the right wing religious groups have managed to influence the school board.

If 10,000 neo-Nazi march in Germany against gay people we don't assume that Germans hate gays, we assume that there is a very worrying but never the less small, group of racist/homophobic groups in Germany that are interested in getting as much media attention as possible.

If 1000 SF/IRA supporters march in Dublin against British occupation in N.I we don't assume "Dublin" is pissed off at Britian

Etc etc

We have to get out of the habit of viewing the entire Muslim world as a single entity with a single opinion on everything.

Some Muslims might be mildly pissed off about this, some Muslims might want to run into the Danish embassy with TNT straped to their chest.

There are degrees to which people get annoyed. The media of course is only going to report the most extreme positions because those are the ones that make the news (the gun men surrounding the EU base for example).

[edit]
To add, there is nothing wrong with that I am not saying it is media bias or anything. It is "news" when a armed gang take over a EU station.

But it is up to us to not derive stereotypes about how we view Muslims, or the Muslim world, in general from the actions of these people, any more than we shoud derive stereotypes about Christians (or Americans for example) based on the news reports about the latest nutty thing the right-wing Christians have done
[/edit]

Suff

Wicknight wrote:

We have to get out of the habit of viewing the entire Muslim world as a single entity with a single opinion on everything.

There are degrees to which people get annoyed. The media of course is only going to report the most extreme positions because those are the ones that make the news (the gun men surrounding the EU base for example).

I Agree.

RE*AC*TOR

Suff wrote:

However staing that Islam is violent is very silly, sure look at the Christain teachings [that no one seems to follow these days] and you would see it more extreme than Islam!

I disagree thoroughly. Christian (new testament) teachings are anything but violent. Having said that, a comparison to Christianity is hardly relevant either, as you rightly said fewer people give a toss about it nowadays anyway. You cannot deny though that there are passages in the Koran dealing with punishing those who offend Mohommad.

Suff wrote:

the point I was making in regards to the west...it seems to me that the west does'nt hold anything holy or sacred anymore! everyone can have a go at Christ or Moses....no respect to these figures anymore?

Some people respect them, other people don't. Its a personal choice and needn't be imposed on everyone.

Suff wrote:

but if we make fun or challange the Holocaust it's a crime in many EU countires, France and Germany for example. you can attack any figure you want publicly but cannot say "Boo" about the Holocaust!!
or in the USA were they had to remove the Twin towers shot in SpiderMan! and in the Simpsons coming Boxset they will remove the Twin towers in "Homer Vs NY" !!!
ok we have to be Sensitive and give respect to the people who died in these event but what about religious icons? its ok to make fun and insult them!???

Freedom of speech my ****!

I don't see why this comparison is repeatedly being made. Its not the same. Victims and families of victims involved in the holocaust and sept11th are still around. It personally affects them. If there is any censorship around these issues it should be because of the global human condition, ie compassion. They suffered a great loss, and there's no need to compound it. Mohommad is a person who may or may not have existed thousands of years ago who claimed to be a prohpet. Its not the same. If some people happen to believe in that, then ok, good for them. Just because certain archaic rules happen to be associated with those beliefs does not mean we should all be subject to them. Muslims need to learn how to live in the real world. Its like a baby throwing its rattle out of the play-pen because it didn't get its own way. If muslim's want to obey their own rules, fine, their choice. They should be able to accept criticism, especially in an era where large elements among them are using their beliefs in the pursuit of violence against other human-beings. Is that not the bigger threat?

And for the record, there are plenty of anti-semetic cartoons in arab newspapers on a regular basis - and some of them do involve the holocaust.

Wibbs

tracert wrote:

Regarding the Koran being flushed down the toilet; you must admit that it has a bit more significance than that of a simple book to Muslims. And it was done to humiliate Muslim prisoners, now, wasn't it?

Agreed and personally I thought that was well out of order, both from a moral and practical point of view.


Good link from mike65 BTW. Well worth a perusal.

Davei141 wrote:

My point was with proper education, they wouldnt be so quick to freak out. I heard a guy on the news talking about muslims over reacting, he was a muslim in authority, he had a sensible head on his shoulders, lets put more people like him up on a pedestal. The problem is, there will more than likely be people gathering around some crackpot with one hand saying these cartoons are a declaration of war on muslims.

Very good point.

Agree with Wicknight here* good post Blitzkreig

Just one thing though;

Blitzkreig wrote:

have you thought the cartoonist might be overreacting? Did he go into hiding because he had a threat more genuine and real then any of the other threats mentioned on this thread here. Or did he think that a threat from a Muslim means terrorists are defitnally gonna chop his head off with a sword?

Well the satanic verses example would suggest that a litlle overreaction was warranted. Deaths and injuries all over the place. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salman_Rushdie#The_Satanic_Verses_controversy

....because the image we have of a christian nutjob is not a threatening as a muslim one and those people laugh it off

Why is that?

GypsumFantastic wrote:

So presumably they get just as hot under the collar about Life of Brian or the Last Temptation of Christ? No?

Sometimes they do actually.

Suff wrote:

IMO...talking doesnt work anymore....sad i know...they have tried the talking route many times in the past on anumber of issues but it always seems to fall on deaf ears....so they start using Violence as it does seem to grap the World's attention.

The problem I have with that, is that it's usually the more religious Muslims that call for violence, not the more secular. It seems to suggest that the more you know and follow Islam as a faith, the more support for violence you seem to find. Mad right wing old testament christians fall into the same category. Maybe that's it. With Christians the second they start quoting the old testament the danger level rises. In the new testament they'd have a lot less support for their more nutty violent assertions. It could be argued the same is true of Islam. If you just take the Quran, there is a lot less violence going on. The Hadeeth(life and sayings of the prophet) gives a much more violent viewpoint altogether. I've heard of some Muslims attempting to give less weight to hadeeth because of this. Discussion for the Islam forum methinks though.

this is wrong IMHO

! We're in full agreement there, Suff.

However staing that Islam is violent is very silly, sure look at the Christain teachings [that no one seems to follow these days] and you would see it more extreme than Islam!

I agree with RE*AC*TOR on this. There's far far less support for violence from the teachings of JC, but the previous point re. the OT might go some way to explain the nutters in that faith.

the point I was making in regards to the west...it seems to me that the west does'nt hold anything holy or sacred anymore! everyone can have a go at Christ or Moses....no respect to these figures anymore?

I would argue that the ideal situation is that we respect the right to hold anything or nothing sacred. The freedom to do so, without fear of death or injury is what we should hold "sacred".

but if we make fun or challange the Holocaust it's a crime../..its ok to make fun and insult them!???

I side with RE*AC*TOR on this one tbh(other than his assertion that Mohammad may or may not have existed. He did and it was 1500 yrs ago. give or take. Help me out with dates here Suff )

Freedom of speech my ****!

TBH I would rather the wests admittedly imperfect version of it, than the version you find in the Islamic world.

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

You cannot deny though that there are passages in the Koran dealing with punishing those who offend Mohommad.

Correct, altough more in the Hadeeth IIRC. In there you will find a few examples of those who made fun of the Prophet in his lifetime were killed, by his followers, with his direct personal approval.

RE*AC*TOR's last two paragraphs above hit the nail on the head for me.


*Wonders never cease:)

Zombrex

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

I disagree thoroughly. Christian (new testament) teachings are anything but violent.

Yes but Christian (old testament) teachings are. And it is the old testament teachings that are used for the vast majority fo Christian fundamentalist views from abortion to gay rights to evolution.

I think it is funny when people just ignore an entire book of the Bible because it doesn't support their point. The Quar'an is all shining light and happiness if you take out the bits about killing and stoning people.

fly_agaric

Wicknight wrote:

For a Martian looking down on earth there is very little difference between the rows over Harry Potter, abortion, evolution etc (ie Christian issues) and the problems with the Muslim world.

I'm sure to Martians, most things that happen on this Earth don't amount to much and they find it difficult to distinguish between all of the above but you are an Earthling (or at least a Martian who lives here) and should be able to do better!

Wicknight wrote:

There are protests all over the Islamic world, but how many Muslims are actually going nuts, out of the 1.2 billion? There were protests all over the Christian world over abortion or something like Harry Potter, but how many Christians actually went nuts, out of the 2.1 billion?

Governments and media (and religious leaders who have now called for a day of anger for Muslims) in Islamic countries are also "going nuts" (because bash the evil West always goes down well it seems, and maybe they think that small, pretty peaceful countries like Denmark - hardly a warmongering neocolonial nation - will be easy enough to bully). You can't run a big product boycott with just a few fanatics either. The violent ones are obviously just the bleeding edge of what is a wider groundswell of hatred stirred up/sparked by these cartoons. I really can't see why you downplay this so much.

I wonder, if the US evangelical's reaction against Harry Potter's evil in the US had been, 100 times worse and involved diplomatic protests at the UN by Bush on their behalf, boycotts of utterly unrelated UK produce etc you would have still said it was just a minor thing that didn't really reflect on Americans at all. Maybe 30% of Americans opposed the war in Iraq and more than 50% of them voted for Gore and then almost 50% voted for John Kerry and yet we generalise that the Bush Whitehouse's Iraq war and its outcome is something "America" as an abstract has responsibility for.

I'm not even going to go into abortion since it actually deals with big stuff like human life and death and what is a human and is not just about a bunch of politically risque cartoon insults to someone who lived and died along time ago and who most people on Earth probably do not believe is a prophet of God anyway.

All your comparisons are ridiculous really and the fact that your worthy attempts to be fair as you see it and not generalise blind you to this is quite sad IMO.

Wibbs

Wicknight wrote:

Yes but Christian (old testament) teachings are. And it is the old testament teachings that are used for the vast majority fo Christian fundamentalist views from abortion to gay rights to evolution.

Exactly my point. Jesus, twice in one day agreeing with Wicknight. Must be a change before death or something.

I think it is funny when people just ignore an entire book of the Bible because it doesn't support their point. The Quar'an is all shining light and happiness if you take out the bits about killing and stoning people.

I figure if Christians all started to ignore or play down the primitive murderous barbarity in the old testament and Muslims ignored or played down the primitive murderous barbarity in the Hadeeth, we might be on a better footing. I'm not holding my breath though.

Zombrex

fly_agaric wrote:

I really can't see why you downplay this so much.

I'm not down playing it at all, its a big fecking deal to Muslims

From a Muslim point of view this cartoon, and its blantant republishing through out Europe, is a huge two fingers up to the entire Islamic religion and is one of the worse possible ways to insult a Muslim.

I'm not a Muslim but producing a cartoon of Mohammad as a suicide bomber, and then reprinting it over and over again would (I imagine) be about the same as the Washington Post producing a cartoon of Martin Luther King raping a white woman in the mid-1960s which was then picked up by every major newspaper in America. I'm sure that would have gone down well with African-Americans.

fly_agaric wrote:

Maybe 30% of Americans opposed the war in Iraq and more than 50% of them voted for Gore and then almost 50% voted for John Kerry and yet we generalise that the Bush Whitehouse's Iraq war and its outcome is something "America" as an abstract has responsibility for.

Yeah and thats wrong too.

fly_agaric wrote:

I'm not even going to go into abortion since it actually deals with big stuff human life and death and what is a human and is not about a bunch of cartoon insults to someone who died along time ago and who most people on Earth probably do not believe is a prophet of God anyway.

Wow, you are just over flowing with religous understanding there.

Bascially most people don't even believe in Islam so whats the big deal..

And people wonder why exactly Muslims feel insulted by the west?

fly_agaric wrote:

All your comparisons are ridiculous really and the fact that your worthy attempts to be fair as you see it and not generalise blind you to this is quite sad IMO.

My comparisions are ridiculous to you because you seem to be more interested in blaming and demonising the Islamic religion (after all most people don't even believe in it do they) than looking at these events in context and from a rational point of view.

Zombrex

Wibbs wrote:

I'm not holding my breath though.

Neither am I unfortunately

As an atheist I think the entire religous thing is nonsense, and causes far more problems than it solves.

fly_agaric

Wicknight wrote:

I'm not down playing it at all, its a big fecking deal to Muslims

You seem to be trying to have it both ways. First you say that the protesting (boycotts, flag burnings, mobbing embassies etc) (not the violence) going on is not reflective of a general muslim response to these cartoons and then you say it is a "big fecking deal" to muslims?

Wicknight wrote:

Wow, you are just over flowing with religous
understanding there.
Bascially most people don't even believe in Islam so whats the big deal..

I suppose that was meant as a free insult:), but you are right in this case. Explain how anyone who is not a certified religious nut could think these damned cartoons, which probably have more people than ever wanting to look at them because of all this fuss, or indeed any insult to Mohammed, are a bigger deal than abortion?

Is the Koran getting flushed down the bog as an insult a bigger deal than torture of muslims in US custody?

Wicknight wrote:

My comparisions are ridiculous to you because you seem to be more interested in blaming and demonising the Islamic religion (after all most people don't even believe in it do they) than looking at these events in context and from a rational point of view.

They don't need little old me posting boards.ie to demonise them. Your comparisons are ridiculous to me because your most powerful ones (cartoons defaming MLK for example) involve actual events in recorded history and not religious figures and texts.

One example you gave was interesting as it hightlights the problem with your attitude:

If the Kansas school board votes to remove evolution from the teaching of biology, we don't assume that the state of Kansas are all fundamentalist nut jobs. We assume the right wing religious groups have managed to influence the school board.

My unenlightened conclusion would be that the entire state of Kansas has a serious problem with Christian fundamentalists since an important body in the state has fallen so far under their sway, not that the school board is some kind of outpost of fundamentalism in Kansas. I suppose such a generalisation makes me a bad person!
Of course, it still doesn't mean that everbody in Kansas is a Christian fundie but what does that matter if the fundies hold the levers of power and have a majority behind them.

In all your arguments you claim that generalisations should never be made about anyone because some people always fall outside them.
Such an attitude is something I can't really get my head around. It's certainly not one a religious fundamentalist would be able to understand.:D

Hagar

My understanding is that Christianity and Islam are so close as to be inseperable.

Christians are taught that they should be willing to lay down their lives for their fellow man.
Islam seems to want to help them do it.

No problem. What's all the fuss about?

RE*AC*TOR

I have one observation. The reaction of large parts of the muslim community to these cartoons is far more demonising of islam than those cartoons ever could be.
Without this furore, if I had seen the cartoon(s) I would merely have thought they were observations on a section of the muslim community, who happen to be touting the name of allah in a lot of their killings.
Now, however, that's all a dot. My new impression is of a community far more irrational than I had ever previously thought possible. I guess as a community, Muslims since 2001 have been getting more attention than ever before. Perhaps its true to say that western society had largely ignored them prior to that. The lesson learned is he who makes the most noise gets the most attention? Is this a continuation of that, are they overreaching? Is this an effort to impose Sharia law on western states? The mind boggles.

rsynnott

The whole thing's very silly. It's the Satanic Verses all over again.

Zombrex

fly_agaric wrote:

You seem to be trying to have it both ways. First you say that the protesting (boycotts, flag burnings, mobbing embassies etc) (not the violence) going on is not reflective of a general muslim response to these cartoons and then you say it is a "big fecking deal" to muslims?

Sigh ... its only a contradiction in your own head

It is your stereotype of Muslims that makes you believe that if something is a big deal to a Muslim they must go out and burn flags and mob embassies. Would you expect western Christians to do the same thing?

That has been my entire point all along ... sweet jesus! :eek:

It is perfectly possible for something to be insulting and a big deal to a Muslim without turning him/her into fundamentalist nut jobs who wants to go blow something up. Some of them turn into fundamentalist nut jobs, in the same way that abortion drives some Christians to murder for their religion.

fly_agaric wrote:

Explain how anyone who is not a certified religious nut could think these damned cartoons, which probably have more people than ever wanting to look at them because of all this fuss, or indeed any insult to Mohammed, are a bigger deal than abortion?

It depends on if you think abortion is a big deal or not. You obviously do.

fly_agaric wrote:

Is the Koran getting flushed down the bog as an insult a bigger deal than torture of muslims in US custody?

I seem to remember Muslims were quite pissed off about that as well until it turned out it wasn't true.

fly_agaric wrote:

Your comparisons are ridiculous to me because your most powerful ones (cartoons defaming MLK for example) involve actual events in recorded history and not religious figures and texts.

Firstly, it doesn't matter if Mohammad actually existed, any more than if Jesus actually existed. It is the foundation of their entire religion, they believe in it thats the important bit.

Secondly, it isn't the cartoon itself, it is the message behind it. It would be like saying black people shouldn't get upset by a cartoon of MLK raping a white woman because MLK didn't rape a white woman, which completely missed the point. The cartoons (the Mohammad one, and my fictional one) are both convaying a very negative message about a group of people.

The reason I picked the MLK example is because one of the worst stereotypes about black people in the US was that they were a threat to the white women of the day. This racism was faced every day, so if a major newspaper had been blatant enough to put that racist very insulting view into a cartoon there would have been up roar.

fly_agaric wrote:

Of course, it still doesn't mean that everbody in Kansas is a Christian fundie but what does that matter if the fundies hold the levers of power and have a majority behind them.

It matters a great deal, but it isn't a reflection on all Christians, all westerners, all Americans or even all Kansas people.

Or put it another way, would you stand for someone attacking Christian people in Ireland based on the Kansas school board ruling?

fly_agaric wrote:

In all your arguments you claim that generalisations should never be made about anyone because some people always fall outside them.

I'm saying that there are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world and unfortunately most of the contact the west has with the Islamic religion and people is when someone is blowing something up.

This is producing a very negative image of Islam to people in the west (which can clearly be seen in this thread alone). It is the responsibility of people to seek the reality behind the negaitve stereotypes, and to not demonise 1/5 of the world population based on actions of a tiny minority

Suff

Hagar wrote:

My understanding is that Christianity and Islam are so close as to be inseperable.

Christians are taught that they should be willing to lay down their lives for their fellow man.
Islam seems to want to help them do it.

No problem. What's all the fuss about?

Ohhh...again stating that Islam is Violent!!!

If the west would try to understand the other side point of view then we won't have this crazy anger across the world today.

how would you establish dialogue if one side "the West" is single minded and would not accept that this is a sensitive issue for the 1.2 Billion people on this earth?

I think that the Danish goverment have dealt with this matter badly/poorly.
I see it as an attack on religious beliefs.

Hagar

Wicknight wrote:

sweet jesus! :eek:

Blasphemer!!! Stone him. Chop off his whatsists. Boycot his country. Bomb his country. Kill every Irish Wolfhound, Kerry Blue and Red Setter.

Zombrex

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

The lesson learned is he who makes the most noise gets the most attention? Is this a continuation of that, are they overreaching? Is this an effort to impose Sharia law on western states? The mind boggles.

Not really.

People seem to be viewing this cartoon completely out of context of the last 5-10 years.

This cartoon has become a focal point of the feeling in the Muslim world that the West (the US and Europe) is totally disrespectful to them, to Islam and to the foundations of their religion.

The anger wasn't generated by this cartoon, it was funnelled and directed to this cartoon. So to say it is a gross over reaction without viewing the issue in a wider context is to ignore a the much more important elements of this issue

Zombrex

Hagar wrote:

Blasphemer!!! Stone him. Chop off his whatsists. Boycot his country. Bomb his country. Kill every Irish Wolfhound, Kerry Blue and Red Setter.

Well 50 years ago that phrase would probably have been censored if it had appeared in a newspaper or film in Ireland ... ah weren't the old days good

Hagar

Wicknight wrote:

The anger wasn't generated by this cartoon, it was funnelled and directed to this cartoon. So to say it is a gross over reaction without viewing the issue in a wider context is to ignore a the much more important elements of this issue

Do I read that as "this cartoon was just an excuse to kick off"?

RE*AC*TOR

Suff wrote:

I think that the Danish goverment have dealt with this matter badly/poorly.
I see it as an attack on religious beliefs.

The Danish government has nothing to do with it. The paper didn't break any laws in Denmark - that's the end of the story.

As for it being an attack on religious beliefs. Firstly I don't agree. I thought it was a comment on the association of religion and violence. If someone blow themself or others up in the name of allah or muhammed - is that not already making that association. How's about boycotting their countries? Secondly, assuming it was an attack on religious beliefs - so what? Its called debate. Debate is healthy. Blind faith is not.

Suff

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

And for the record, there are plenty of anti-semetic cartoons in arab newspapers on a regular basis - and some of them do involve the holocaust.

Anti-Semetic! that term have been abused and used...

Dont forget that Arabs are Semetic so how can I be anti-me?!

Davei141

Wicknight wrote:

Thats because you don't view the thousands (hundred of thousands?) of fundamentalist Christians in the western world as the "Christian world", which is kinda my point.

You still didnt tell me where all the christian leaders of countries were demanding an apology from the british government. Or where they said britain was declaring war on christians.

For a Martian looking down on earth there is very little difference between the rows over Harry Potter, abortion, evolution etc (ie Christian issues) and the problems with the Muslim world.

The scale.

There are protests all over the Islamic world, but how many Muslims are actually going nuts, out of the 1.2 billion? There were protests all over the Christian world over abortion or something like Harry Potter, but how many Christians actually went nuts, out of the 2.1 billion?

Have a listen to the countries leaders, the imams, the papers, Tv stations. You know? These are the people/things these people look for guidance in, because poverty is high. I havent heard of newspapers, priests, tv or presidents/leaders/PM's demanding an apology from JK rowling or britain.

When something like this happens the nut jobs and fundamentalists have a field day, no one is denying that. Its just like they do in the western Christian world. Yet when it happens in the Islamic world we see it as the entire religion up in arms because we believe all Muslims are pretty much all alike in the way they think.

No, because all islamic leaders, imams and whoever else, are freaking out! Yet when one goes against the tide theyre prosecuted (editor of the jordanian paper). Let me ask you this wicknight, how many catholics 70 years ago, would freak out at a picture of mary as a prostitute or something? And this country alone would of been freaking out. Why? Because religion controlled peoples everyday lives in catholic ireland 70 years ago.

So if a hundred people go on a rally in Gaza over this, shooting guns in the air, that means "Gaza" is up in arms. Which ignores the fact that 99% of Gaza didn't go nuts over this, even if it really pissed them off. If a thousand people in Jordan burn western flags in a market, that means "Jordan" is really pissed off. And so on and so on until the entire Islamic world is seemingly up in arms over this.

No i think when the elected officials of jordan freak out, the papers of jordan freak out, the religious leaders of jordan freak out, then 1000 people burning flags, i think i can assume theyre freaking out, and with merit.

Yet if the Pennselvanian police department refused to direct traffic to an event organsisted by a group that reads Harry Potter to kids we don't assume Pennselvainia is pissed off about Harry Potter, we assume that some people in Pensselvania are a bit nuts.

Well if the mayor of pennsylvania, the newspapers of pennsylvania, the religious leaders of pennsylvania are freaking out, in a predominantly christian state, i could safely assume pennsylvania is freaking out!

If the Kansas school board votes to remove evolution from the teaching of biology, we don't assume that the state of Kansas are all fundamentalist nut jobs. We assume the right wing religious groups have managed to influence the school board

Or just that the board is regilious themselves.

If 10,000 neo-Nazi march in Germany against gay people we don't assume that Germans hate gays, we assume that there is a very worrying but never the less small, group of racist/homophobic groups in Germany that are interested in getting as much media attention as possible.

Well, if the german PM hated gays and was a nazi, the papers hated gays and were spouting nazi bull****, not to mention, people growing up with nazi ideology, i would assume germany would freak out if some gay program got on TV.

If 1000 SF/IRA supporters march in Dublin against British occupation in N.I we don't assume "Dublin" is pissed off at Britian

How many times have you heard "up the ra" or "i hate the brits" by uneducated fools who grew up believing that because their father/grandfather/uncle taught them that?

Etc etc

We have to get out of the habit of viewing the entire Muslim world as a single entity with a single opinion on everything.

Theres no denying the scale of this, and as i said before, those with contrasting opinions in the ME are being prosecuted! for "lets not overreact" while printing the pictures. And also, when people read about the "western" world attacking their beloved prophet, they going to gather around some crackpot who is in a position of religious authority. Because lets face it, bashing the west always draws big crowds.

Some Muslims might be mildly pissed off about this, some Muslims might want to run into the Danish embassy with TNT straped to their chest.

Did i mention we are talking about a cartoon?

There are degrees to which people get annoyed. The media of course is only going to report the most extreme positions because those are the ones that make the news (the gun men surrounding the EU base for example).

Yes there is, but people are telling them that "denmark is attacking the prophet", the newspaper is a "mouth piece to their right wing extremist government", a "denmark has declared war on islam". How do they know that the paper is privately owned? How do they know that the danish government isnt declaring war on islam? Well? Im sure them being brought up believing they should help every muslim brother and sister, then hearing denmark is declaring war on all muslims, would rile them? no?

[edit]

To add, there is nothing wrong with that I am not saying it is media bias or anything. It is "news" when a armed gang take over a EU station.

It was news when people over reacted.

But it is up to us to not derive stereotypes about how we view Muslims, or the Muslim world, in general from the actions of these people, any more than we shoud derive stereotypes about Christians (or Americans for example) based on the news reports about the latest nutty thing the right-wing Christians have done
[/edit]

Of course, but how many of those in the ME are being given both sides of the story? Just look at the cindy sheehan thread, shes being oppressed by the evil bush administration, then wait...nope, just dress policy.

Suff

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

- so what? Its called debate. Debate is healthy. Blind faith is not.

Is that your ideal way to conduct an "Educated/Modern" debate ??

very stupid point!

RE*AC*TOR

Suff wrote:

Anti-Semetic! that term have been abused and used...

Dont forget that Arabs are Semetic so how can I be anti-me?!

That's fine, be pedantic. Allow me to rephrase:

there are plenty of anti-semetic cartoons in newspapers printed in Muslim States on a regular basis - and some of them do involve the holocaust.


some examples:
http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/img/arabcartoons06.jpg
http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/img/arabcartoons07.jpg

goose.... gander?

RE*AC*TOR

Suff wrote:

Is that your ideal way to conduct an "Educated/Modern" debate ??

very stupid point!

Touché. Very compelling stuff.