The Danish Cartoon - pretext to war?? !!??

Essey

Essey wrote:

The reaction of Muslims groups throughout the world has been to some extent quite excessive. Should they be outraged? Sure - I'm a Christian and I've been appalled by some of the things that I've read but that isn't an excuse. The appropriate response would be to demand an apology and if necessary then boycott that newspaper. Not take all Danish products off the shelves throughout the Middle East. This behavior is merely reenforcing what the cartoonists were pointing out (rightly or wrongly) - that Muslims are violent, excessive and borderline insane. To not respect the principals of freedom of speech leaves us open to "where will this end?". What next topic will upset everyone.

Gotta say I agree with pretty much everything in that post.

Suff

I don't!

Suff

Essey wrote:

They too must respect our values of free speech and if what is being said is deemed moronic then say so.

freedom of speech is completly different this is a insensitive, attack, vulgar, insulting, ignorance mocking of a religious Icon.

freedom of speech is a term for something that does not exist

I am angry and insulted but I would not rush out to burn a Danish flag!

BlitzKrieg

I don't understand why they are so very upset (er, angry would be better) over this a few thousand miles away in the ME and in other countries that they boycott products en masse, and the most "upset" people burn flags and go on marches while the extremists issue threads.

Because a group of very pissed off Muslims from Denmark campaigned across the middle east since september. Throw in an already escalating fear on both sides and you can see how so many can easily jump the gun (as people around the world have done so many times before when information is told in a negative fashion).

Wikipedia wrote:

A Muslim religious organisation in Denmark, Islamisk Trossamfund, has brought attention to the cartoons during a tour of the Middle-East, and has allegedly represented that Muslims in Denmark have been exposed to much more overtly offensive images

So because Muslims are a special case and (generalising) take their religion more seriously than most we also have to take it deadly serious about it at all times? What if that conficts with other things we hold dear and are a "big deal" for us?

Yes Muslims should be treated as a special case in the same way judiasm and other religions which are directly tied to a governemental body should be treated as special cases. We dont bend over backwards for them, but we dont forget that it is not an internal affair with a religous minority, its a kick in the teeth to a number of countries.

Unlike the majority of western states, there is no seperation of church and state in many middle eastern states, so in the politics of international relations it is advised that people have common sense not to knowingly offend entire nations rather then groups within a nation. Its the same as openly offending the Jewish faith, you will offend the entire Isreali state.

That doesnt mean we should take the backstep on every issue, as not to offend, it means one should (and i go back to my original post) do a risk assessment. And keep in mind that your not offending a minority group, your offending numerous countries.

I have to ask why the cartoons had to directly scribble onto to them that the character was Muhammad, the outcry would have been nowhere near as huge if the artist had gone for stereotypical bad muslim, yes there would have been complaints, but there are always complaints, except now something has been commited that almost every Muslim agrees is too offensive.

Essey

Suff - freedom of speech does exist and has been embodied in our culture since the age of enlightenment. People and been imprisoned for exercising it and other have died because they have used it or because someone didn't use it enough. Muslims when they burn a flag - use freedom of speech but don't extend the courtesy to us. While I agree that one should exercise restraint and a few ounces of reason when exercising their right - we would be doing our society a grave injustice if we were to muzzle every unpleasant, bizarre, ridiculous thought that ever existed. Once upon a time thinking of moon walking could have gotten you committed. If something you read or heard is wrong or offensive it is you right - no duty - to point it out - in a peaceful, responsible and logical manner.

Vangelis

Well, extremist Muslims are now declaring war on Norway and Denmark and they have issued threats of terror-attacks if an offical apology by the government is not given within a limited time. Thank you so much, Jylland-posten.

So much for a the utterance of a despicable little Christian newspaper.

It's embarrassing. All because the newspapers are to stuck up to humble themselves. If they want suicide-bombers to come to Scandinavia, I hope they attack the newspapers' locations first. You reap what you sow.

dermot_sheehan

Vangelis wrote:

Well, extremist Muslims are now declaring war on Norway and Denmark and they have issued threats of terror-attacks if an offical apology by the government is not given within a limited time. Thank you so much, Jylland-posten.

So much for a the utterance of a despicable little Christian newspaper.

It's embarrassing. All because the newspapers are to stuck up to humble themselves. If they want suicide-bombers to come to Scandinavia, I hope they attack the newspapers' locations first. You reap what you sow.

Why the hell should they humble themselves? They were exercising their right to free speech in a country that guarantees free speech. Their conduct did not advocate the commission of a crime (such as the free speech we tolerate from some islamic fanatics).

It's our right to ridicule and poke fun at religions and other systems of beliefs, because they are ideas, and if they are strong they should be able to stand up to them. Restrictions on freedom of speech should be constrictly construed for only the most necessary of reasons, that forgeiners in a forgein land find it offensive is not good enough.

We should have the right to offend other religions. I have the right to say that the prophet was not devinely inspired, that he heard the voices in his head from some mental illness. That the quaran was rewritten to remove references to a goddess that Rushdie alleges was in the original version. Practioners of islam may find my statements create awkward questions in their mind, but tough, live with it.

If we can't publish pictures like this in our own land, surely we've given in to a forgein tyranny.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/jbgusa/muhamed%20cartoons/Muhammed_Jens_Julius_Hansen_Jylland.jpg

rsynnott

The paper should absolutely not back down just because of crazy threats.

Suff

there is a difference between the freedom of speech and the freedom to insult!

take boards.ie for example you cannot abuse or insult people/faith. otherwise we would have the same tension now.

Suff

rsynnott wrote:

The paper should absolutely not back down just because of crazy threats.

they should apologiese because its insulting and offensive.

the cheif editor said that if he had known of the reaction level he would not approved of publishing these images.

there is the freedom of speech and the freedom to insult!

Sand

Well, extremist Muslims are now declaring war on Norway and Denmark and they have issued threats of terror-attacks if an offical apology by the government is not given within a limited time. Thank you so much, Jylland-posten.

So much for a the utterance of a despicable little Christian newspaper.

It's embarrassing. All because the newspapers are to stuck up to humble themselves. If they want suicide-bombers to come to Scandinavia, I hope they attack the newspapers' locations first. You reap what you sow.

Van, they were making a point about how people are terrified of going anywhere near Islam like they do with say Christianity or any other religion -primarily because fanatical nut jobs wont just threaten them, theyll kill them. Dont you think its a problem that people are threatening to murder cartoonists and scandinavias over something that barely registers compared to South Parks use of Jesus and Christianity in general? Say they appease the violent fundamentalists this time, how long till more threats are issued for some other infraction against Muslims feelings?

There has to be a point where its made clear that violent threats on the exercise of free speech is wholly wrong and unacceptable. If something offends you, say so. Dont go round murdering the person or persons who offended you. The later you leave it to spell it out, the greater the fallout. Theres an imbalance in terms of freedoms between the Middle East and Europe. I would hope they would gain our freedoms, not us surrender ours to meet them.

I have to ask why the cartoons had to directly scribble onto to them that the character was Muhammad, the outcry would have been nowhere near as huge if the artist had gone for stereotypical bad muslim, yes there would have been complaints, but there are always complaints, except now something has been commited that almost every Muslim agrees is too offensive.

As I understand it, the point was to have it as Muhammed, to directly confront the reasons why cartoonists are so difficult to find for childrens books dealing with Islamic tales. Or why there has never been an Islamic Life of Brian.

Essey

Actually Suff - not really. Boards.ie moderate in order to maintain control over the posters and keep the subject matter on topic. In the real word discussion of varying sorts must take place. If we are to silence all objectionable subject matter - without the benefit of airing thoughts and administrating education and guidance these ideas will merely fester and infect further. Extreme shows of defiance will only serve to enforce the ideas others have formed on you or of the topic. When **** flies it sticks somewhere. If Muslims sense that westerns have a poor opinion of them - then their response should be dialogue and education - not beheading, kidnappings, and mass destruction.
It was nice chatting - have a nice weekend.

Sand

take boards.ie for example you cannot abuse or insult people/faith. otherwise we would have the same tension now.

Yes you can. You cant abuse posters, but you can make any comments you wish (within reason) about any public person, institution or group. Including religions. The amount of stick Christianity gets on Boards.ie is proof of that.

BlitzKrieg

Van, they were making a point about how people are terrified of going anywhere near Islam like they do with say Christianity or any other religion -primarily because fanatical nut jobs wont just threaten them, theyll kill them. Dont you think its a problem that people are threatening to murder cartoonists and scandinavias over something that barely registers compared to South Parks use of Jesus and Christianity in general? Say they appease the violent fundamentalists this time, how long till more threats are issued for some other infraction against Muslims feelings?

I understand the newspapers intentions, but it could it infact have been too blunt? It was an interesting theory that printing such cartoons would lead to a fanatical response. But even before it was printed there was enough evidence to tell the world what the response would have been (previous incidents) and also the general atmosphere between the west and islam should made someone think twice before posting something that could set it off.

Of course they had the article to go with the cartoons, but like so much the rest of the world a narrow minded group ignored the true intentions and have paraded around pulling everyone else off their feet putting their own intentions into it.

Funny that you mention South Park. Cause episode 504 Super Best Friends has Mohammad in it. Throwing fireballs from his hands no less. But this was before 9/11

It is more a creation of the times and its presentation that has led to the current situation.

dloob

I don't see why any religious icon should be protected from critism.
Especially in the case of muhammad whose history is the source of some
controversy involving wars and massacres.

There are elements of all religions that deserve critism.
It's getting to the stage where Islam is becoming beyond reproach and
people won't say anything about, not out of respect for it mind, but because
of fear of the inevitable freak out and death threats.

Where will it end? Will the west have to adopt Shari law because our
decadent lifestyles offend Muslims.

Wibbs

Vangelis wrote:

So much for a the utterance of a despicable little Christian newspaper.

What about the utterances of a the despicable little Islamic newspapers (and clerics) that are further fanning the flames

It's embarrassing. All because the newspapers are to stuck up to humble themselves.

And why are we treating some in the Islamic world like unruly aggressive children, incapable of "humbling" themselves and looking at this as the unfunny "joke" it is?

If they want suicide-bombers to come to Scandinavia, I hope they attack the newspapers' locations first.

Nice sentiment.

You reap what you sow.

Quiite and if "we"* back down too far over this we're going to be doing some reaping.

Suff wrote:

there is a difference between the freedom of speech and the freedom to insult!

I agree with you, but the difference should be worked out in dialogue and/or a court of law. Too many times nowadays, especially in dealings with Islam, violence and the threat of same is what sets the boundaries.


*Sadly I think more and more it is an us and them situation. This furore goes some way to proving the ignorance and intolerance on both sides.

Cork

Suff wrote:

there is a difference between the freedom of speech and the freedom to insult!

take boards.ie for example you cannot abuse or insult people/faith. otherwise we would have the same tension now.

Mary O rourke could actually wage war on RTE over Bull Island.

Bertie could declare war on Today FM over Gift Grub.

We live in an open & free society.

This needs to be pointed out.

Suff

dloob wrote:

Where will it end? Will the west have to adopt Shari law because our
decadent lifestyles offend Muslims.

No! and it's not decadent!!! the west needs to understand the difference between freedom to speak your mind and the freedom to be insulting and vulgar while hiding behind the "Freedom of Speech".

Funny that only in the west you would find a statue of Christ with ofensive words and some male parts (How sick) if the west has lost its morals values do you want the world to copy it!

Moral values, respect towards religious icons from whatever religion can only show the level of RESPECT ,UNDERSTANDING and TOLLERNCE that people have for each other

at the moment the West seems to be running low on that.

Suff

Cork wrote:

Mary O rourke could actually wage war on RTE over Bull Island.

Bertie could declare war on Today FM over Gift Grub.

We live in an open & free society.

This needs to be pointed out.

thay are all political and not religious Icons!!!

Stimpyone

Suff wrote:

No! and it's not decadent!!! the west needs to understand the difference between freedom to speak your mind and the freedom to be insulting and vulgar while hiding behind the "Freedom of Speech".

Funny that only in the west you would find a statue of Christ with ofensive words and some male parts (How sick) if the west has lost its morals values do you want the world to copy it!

Moral values, respect towards religious icons from whatever religion can only show the level of RESPECT ,UNDERSTANDING and TOLLERNCE that people have for each other

at the moment the West seems to be running low on that.

Thou shalt not kill....... respect that

CiaranC

thay are all political and not religious Icons!!!

Religion is a voluntary belief system, the same as a political one. You seem to be under the impression that belief systems centred around theology should have some special protection. This is not the case, and hopefully it never will be.

Cork

Suff wrote:

thay are all political and not religious Icons!!!

So - It is fine to insult political people and not religious.


We live in a democracy. We have incitement to hatred legalislation.

We give rights of freedom of speech and equal rights to women.


Freedom of speech is also a right that has to be defended.

There is no way any group should tell us to impose censorship.

Let them boycott away.

What has been learnt since Salman Rushdie?

BuffyBot

Moral values, respect towards religious icons from whatever religion can only show the level of RESPECT ,UNDERSTANDING and TOLLERNCE that people have for each other

Lots of respect, understanding and tolerance at the London demonstrations yesterday, especially on the banners and placards. Now, imagine if non-muslim people went marching with placards saying some of what they were saying, how long would that demonstration last. You can't help but wonder...

Wibbs

Good point BuffyBot. You can imagine the outcry if we saw "Islam is the cancer, the west is the cure" or "Kill those who deny freedom to speak" or Cut the head off all who don't believe in the west". Ho ho, there would be hand wringing aplenty over those kind of sentiments, especially if it was a large number of people, not your usual 20 blokes and a dog that the daft neo nazi types get. These radicals are equally daft I reckon.

fly_agaric

Thanks Blitzkrieg for the reference to your first post which I had not read fully. Your point about bad timing is taken, but something like this was inevitable at some point (Western newspaper/media deciding to have a pop at Islamic taboos) because of what has being happening over the past few years. Being selfish, it is good for Ireland that something like this has happened now rather than later when we have a large Muslim minority here in less of a mood to be reasonable. That assumes that things will improve after this affair blows over of course.

Blitzkreig wrote:

Yes Muslims should be treated as a special case in the same way judiasm and other religions which are directly tied to a governemental body should be treated as special cases. We dont bend over backwards for them, but we dont forget that it is not an internal affair with a religous minority, its a kick in the teeth to a number of countries.

Well, Catholicism is the ultra-example of that. Hasn't stopped it getting a great kicking lately. Perhaps it depends how big your economy and army are and what kind of weapons you have (Uncle Joe and the Popes' divisions).

I wouldn't have published the more offensive cartoons and the original paper was irresponsible (they already apologised a few days back I think?), but the expectation of the governments (and some of the more militant citizens) of Islamic countries that they can order governments in Europe to change their laws to suit Islamic mores better, basically bully and threaten to get their way over this issue is mad and is mainly what resulted in the escalation (reprinting the cartoons all over Europe). I have a gut instinct that you should not give in to a bully, you'll just get an even worse beating the next time.

Of course, I'm sure I'm open to the inevitable response of what's sauce for the goose given the US's efforts to promote democracy and change the political culture in Muslim countries. To that I'd say that use of external force, threats and bullying to change these countries is also not on, and the pace and direction of change is ultimately something that will have to be driven from within the countries themselves.

BlitzKrieg

Well, Catholicism is the ultra-example of that. Hasn't stopped it getting a great kicking lately. Perhaps it depends how big your economy and army are and what kind of weapons you have (Uncle Joe and the Popes' divisions).

But Catholicism is not tied directly into the legal/political system of European countries (not 100% on Italy but i'm sure its not tied directly into the legal system) unlike say some Middle easten countries where Islam is not only the majority religion but the basis and policy of the entire legal system. Yes to us it can appear barbaric. But looking down on it and gibbering on that they should adopt our ideals and attitude will only push them further away.

I have a gut instinct that you should not give in to a bully, you'll just get an even worse beating the next time.

I agree, dont give into a bully. but if the reason the bully is bullying you is because you keep singing "smokers die younger" when you pass him in the schoolyard, well maybe you shouldnt sing it.

Whistle Blower

Suff wrote:

Sure , I delebretly used that term to see reactions on the board.
my point..... people will react to that as more offensive than a picture that insults Muhammad/Christ/Moses (PBUT)

forget the term freedom of speech..no one is against it, the problem lies in the "idea/ image/concept" that is being portrayed in the published images.

another thing...what is the idea, reason behind publishing such images?
what's the message?

Here is the message we have freedom to speech, we have freedom to slag each other and do so without the threat of death...The Holocaust is not a joking point as Millions died at the hands of the Nazi's and today a lot of Arab(Islamic) Cultures pump more hatred and propaganda that the Nazi's ever did...

This is Western Europe, we are liberal and FREE and not oppressed under a Insular Hardcore Dictaorial government or Faith, if you don't like it go back to Syria and listen to the indoctornation about destroying the West, the Zionist Pigs etc and watch the public Barbaric executions as at the end of the day a cartoon is what it is as we dont go out and blow ourselves up in the name of Jesus or God Almightly...

GET A GRIP!

Whistle Blower

Suff wrote:

freedom of speech is completly different this is a insensitive, attack, vulgar, insulting, ignorance mocking of a religious Icon.

freedom of speech is a term for something that does not exist

I am angry and insulted but I would not rush out to burn a Danish flag!

How is Mohammed an Icon, explain this because I certainly dont seem him as one and from looking at his life and the Fables, he did'nt exactly do anything for anyone and instilled the seed of hatred more than Peace or Compassion which Islam does not have.!!

Captain Trips

Whistle Blower wrote:

Here is the message we have freedom to speech, we have freedom to slag each other and do so without the threat of death...The Holocaust is not a joking point as Millions died at the hands of the Nazi's and today a lot of Arab(Islamic) Cultures pump more hatred and propaganda that the Nazi's ever did...

Indeed. Jermey Clarkson got into a tiny bit of trouble when he did the Nazi salute and said "Ve vill build fan belts that vill last a thousand years" on an episode of Top Gear a few months ago. It was funny but sort of not so in Germany where it could apparently have him arrested.

But, that said, people are welcome to make fun of Hitler, or The Pope, George Bush, the Dalai Lama in our culture - whether it's funny or not is for people to decide but it doesn't mean that you occupy a non-related adminstration building in the Gaza Strip (the EU building) at GUNPOINT.

Respect being demanded on threat of execution rarely gets respect. That's why the US foreign policy (you are with or against us, shock andawe, etc., ) rarely gets moderates on side, and they are learning more how to use "soft" power. Respect being demanded on threat of closing diplomatic relations, withdrawing trade agreements and issuing death threats also will not get respect.

mike65

Well we've gone from marches and speeches to burning embassys in a few days, the bombs will be going off in the next fews days or some peoplewill get shot at the very least.

Welcome to the clash of civilisations?

Mike.