The Danish Cartoon - pretext to war?? !!??

rsynnott

I'm always amazed that people get so excited about affronts to their religions, really. God(ess)(e)(s), Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, and so on are grown-ups, and can probably deal with it.

Binomate

If I were Muhammed I'd have laughed at the drawings. Just because something is divine doesn't mean it doesn't have a sense of humour.

fly_agaric

BlitzKrieg wrote:

But Catholicism is not tied directly into the legal/political system of European countries (not 100% on Italy but i'm sure its not tied directly into the legal system) unlike say some Middle easten countries where Islam is not only the majority religion but the basis and policy of the entire legal system.

Fair enough.

BlitzKrieg wrote:

Yes to us it can appear barbaric. But looking down on it and gibbering on that they should adopt our ideals and attitude will only push them further away.

I know. Just as this "show the proper respect for Islam the Religion of Peace -or else!" stuff has exactly the opposite effect here.

BlitzKrieg wrote:

I agree, dont give into a bully. but if the reason the bully is bullying you is because you keep singing "smokers die younger" when you pass him in the schoolyard, well maybe you shouldnt sing it.

True. But if you refer to the cartoons it is done now, and it looks like what is being demanded at the moment in the way of appropriate restitution/apology will be a bridge too far for most people. If you are referring to European criticism of the way many ME countries are run etc the US has been far more vocal on this and hasn't been afraid to use force to change things.

mike65

the difference betwen east and west?

Mike.

ISAW

Suff wrote:

freedom of speech is completly different this is a insensitive, attack, vulgar, insulting, ignorance mocking of a religious Icon.

freedom of speech is a term for something that does not exist

I am angry and insulted but I would not rush out to burn a Danish flag!

In my opinion this cartoon issue is so problematic because it exists in a grey are where principles and application enforecment of them are difficult to demark. what do I mean? Well here are some things I think about it.


No right is ultimately protected.

For example one may not have a right to kill onesself or even to abort an unborn child. You may have the right to believe or think what you want (even if it is morally unacceptable) but actions based on that CAN be restricted.

Therefore:Free speech is not entirley free. The action of shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater or incitement to hatred are examples where one can not appeal to free speech.

One may have a right to speak but not a right to have an audience.
there are people who have every right to say they hate Jews or ridicule Mohammad or Christ. A problem arises however when their opinions are broadcast and actions based on them aries. In the cartoon case however it is the adverse reaction that caused concern. I mean, someone is not sending a message to do harm but some people who take offense at the message ARE!

SAy someone depicted Christ or Moses eating Pork. This is offensive to some jews (christ was a Jew). But if the reaction is to kill or injure the person creating the offence then that is over reacting. The difficulty is that telling people jews are inferior is not really a nice thing to do. Indeed in some places it is illegal! Preaching hatred is one thing, encouraging people to act on that hatred is another. But when does making jews/gypsies/arabs/the Irish/ etc. look silly become preaching hatred? Is saying that refusal to eat pork is silly an incitement to hatred?

In this particular case there is an added issue that any representation of a prophet is immoral. The cartoon delved into that in two ways. First it depicted someone and second it depicted them in a bad light. But the really silly idea is that first how does anyone know this even looks like any prophet? thay have no images to go by do they? And second the people who are mostly upset about the ridicule are claiming that the cartoonist should be killed - the sort of silly level of violence which the cartoonist was rediculing! By reacting in the way they did they prove him correct!

Suff

Well put, I Agree with ISAW.

The Violence is out of order, I am a Muslim and I was very angry when I saw these cartoons, the message they are trying to display were insulting.

They knew it was offensive the first time when the Islamic community protested peacefully in September on the issue. they did not oppologies then and went to re-print them again.

The violence did not start the first time as it was peaceful protest.

Whistle Blower

It is amazing the way the Muslims are looking so closely at the West maybe it is about time we looked at the Barbaric sub human and evil ways they go on..

The abuse of Women
The Execution of Humans for Adultery
The Gouging of Eyes
The Amuputation if Limbs
Beheading

The Slaughtering of Chrisitians or people with Moderate views...


The Murder of Aid workers, Bigley the Irish Woman, Nick Berg


The slaughter of Iraqi's by Iraqi's

I don't agree with the Iraq war but I do agree that Sadam could hold the country together by fear as did Tito in the Balkans...


Muslims who complain or incite hatred from this are Hypocrites no more no less

Chrisitianity has its flaws but does not advocate the death and destruction of Humans -- Islam Does

Judaism also is not perfect but does not advocate Murder and brutality against humans...


At the end of the day why so Scared do you see us rioting when we see fellow westerners from all walks of life getting slaughtered or put on video...

No why because we are civilised, we are liberal most of us believe in the right to life and to have free speech and if you don't like our ways GET OUT OF OUR COUNTRIES:mad:

Whistle Blower

Suff wrote:

Well put, I Agree with ISAW.

The Violence is out of order, I am a Muslim and I was very angry when I saw these cartoons, the message they are trying to display were insulting.

They knew it was offensive the first time when the Islamic community protested peacefully in September on the issue. they did not oppologies then and went to re-print them again.

The violence did not start the first time as it was peaceful protest.

Peaceful protest don't make me laugh I was in Gaza last year and saw it with my own eyes...

RENT A MOB

more like

Suff

Guys Dont worry too much about Whistle Blower....he's a silly Zionist
which is obvious when you look at his remarks!

Whistle Blower

Dont like the Truth it hurts doesnt it..... You we wont kill you here for being wrong, we believe in Compassion,Love and Forgiveness what do you believe in

Suff

Whistle Blower wrote:

we believe in Compassion,Love and Forgiveness

Yeah right a then you must return your Zionist ID membership if you really believe in the above

rsynnott

Suff wrote:

The violence did not start the first time as it was peaceful protest.

That makes it okay, then, does it? Hmm...

Suff wrote:

Guys Dont worry too much about Whistle Blower....he's a silly Zionist
which is obvious when you look at his remarks!

Oh, not the bloody secret Jewish conspiracy again. In any case, he seems to be more a fan of Christianity.

BuffyBot

The violence did not start the first time as it was peaceful protest.

Indeed. So when they didn't get there own way the first time, it's ok to step it up a bit?

Suff

BuffyBot wrote:

Indeed. So when they didn't get there own way the first time, it's ok to step it up a bit?

YES!
it's our right to do so!...freedom of speech!

Binomate

Suff wrote:

YES!
it's our right to do so!...freedom of speech!

Using freedom of speech to silence someone. The irony.

Suff

Binomate wrote:

Using freedom of speech to silence someone. The irony.

it does work on both sides, they want to silence the muslims by saying it's freedom of speech while the muslims are angry with the level of response from the west so they are using their freedom of speech!

rsynnott

Suff wrote:

YES!
it's our right to do so!...freedom of speech!

Even the most liberal interpretation of freedom of speech does not cover setting fire to embassies, or making overt threats.

Cork

Why are Danish products being singled out?

I cannot see the connection between a newspaper and the produce of a country.

If the Sunday Indo published the cartoon tomorrow would every thing Irish be boycotted?

The cartoons are on the net - Are computers with internet access a target?

Do the Muslims want stricter censorship laws in the West?

Can we then make demands on Muslim countries?

Binomate

I think the Irish Star has already published the cartoons.

Sand

I think the Irish Star has already published the cartoons.

Bertie will happily apologise on behalf of the country and paper. Would probably offer to behead the editor himself come to think of it...

rsynnott

Sand wrote:

Bertie will happily apologise on behalf of the country and paper. Would probably offer to behead the editor himself come to think of it...

Sadly, probably true. I'm glad to see the Danish are standing up to this sort of nonsense, though.

BlitzKrieg

Why are Danish products being singled out?

I cannot see the connection between a newspaper and the produce of a country.

Because in a number of islamic countries newspapers are directly tied to the government and there was false information going around that the head of the current party in power in denmark was the paper's editor.

Hence the people using their understanding of how newspapers worked struck out at who they assumed were responsible and should be fixing the problem.

Dont get me wrong i am not supporting the actions islamic groups have taken (i have lost most of my sympathy after they burned down an embassey) But i would like to understand how the situation arose, and i dont believe that it can all be thrown onto those 'dirty muslims' or those 'idiotic Danes' its a mess in the middle.

the_syco

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

the Catholic church was the same until everyone (nearly) started to ignore them

The don't have suicide bombers. Those who claim to defend Islam, carry out suicide bombings, but don't seem to see the irony that they are carrying out suicide bombing in revenge for their religon being called a religon of suicide bombers.

Threatening the lives of those who write the stories is not always a good idea, as those who write the stories may find out alot of skeltons in your closet.

ISAW

Whistle Blower wrote:

It is amazing the way the Muslims are looking so closely at the West maybe it is about time we looked at the Barbaric sub human and evil ways they go on..

The abuse of Women

I don't think that is confined to Muslims. If you are referring to Saudi Arabia (big pals and clients of Bush) then that is a dictatorship and not really a Muslim state. Women are abused in the West also. You seem to think women have rights in non- muslim states which are allied with the West. I woud suggest the treatment of women in dentral and south AMerica and in Oceania wher ther are strong western persence is not with out abuse.

The Execution of Humans for Adultery

Well while the EU has banned execution the Us is still very strong on it. Second only to China I believe. Both of them are not majority Muslim.

The Gouging of Eyes

Again I dont know this is restricted to Muslims. Most of the torture I heard of recently was related to the Us doing it on Muslims.

The Amuputation if Limbs

This happens when you blanket bomb an area does it not? One could also say that in prision ridden countries with high levels of gun crime they perfer to amputate your dignity.

Beheading

Again chinsa is the world leader on this. But if one has the eath penalty you should not kid yourself that lethal injection or gassing is somehow "more humane". If killing someone is inhumane then the death penalty is not matter which way it is carried out. Shooting and hanging are options in the Us also.

The Slaughtering of Chrisitians or people with Moderate views...

Which Muslim state did this? you do realise that most of the death due to military in the twentieth century were from non religious regimes?

The Murder of Aid workers, Bigley the Irish Woman, Nick Berg

But this was not in a Muslim run country. Either the country IRAQ was not being run by anyone or it was being run by the US. If not by anyone then you cant claim a muslim regime caused these deaths. If run by the Us then the US have some answers to give. Before the US occupation under Saddam there were NO aid workers murdered indeed Saddam was OPPOSED to Muslim Fundamentalists gaining control in Iraq. This only happened AFTER the US invaded. Makes you think does it?

The slaughter of Iraqi's by Iraqi's

This happened under Saddam - who as I just stated was not a supporter of Muslim fundamentalist government. And for some time Iraqis have been killing each other and other people. Ever heard of Saladin?

I don't agree with the Iraq war but I do agree that Sadam could hold the country together by fear as did Tito in the Balkans...

This much we agree on.

Muslims who complain or incite hatred from this are Hypocrites no more no less

Wow! we agree on this too. Yu seem to understand that wanting to kill other people for the likes of a cartoon is as much against Muslijm thinking as it is against Christian.

Chrisitianity has its flaws but does not advocate the death and destruction of Humans -- Islam Does

Really? where? I seem to remember that during the Crusades christians treated cities much much worse than Muslims.

Judaism also is not perfect but does not advocate Murder and brutality against humans...

You really should read your Bible. For a geographically apt reference :- Try Pslam 137 - "By the rivers of Babylon". Look at the last two lines.

At the end of the day why so Scared do you see us rioting when we see fellow westerners from all walks of life getting slaughtered or put on video...

No why because we are civilised, we are liberal most of us believe in the right to life and to have free speech and if you don't like our ways GET OUT OF OUR COUNTRIES:mad:

One does see Westerners rioting. It has happened in The US and the UK.
The "right to life" of the Unborn is not protected in most US States or in the UK. They have abortion on demand.

And what about those Iraquis? If they said "we have a democracy now. We dont like your presence. Please get out of our coutry" Do you think the Us would leave?

Furthermore forigners provide cheap labour. If they are not allowed in thenm the Big Business men in the US will just switch operations to Mexico Chile China India or wherever they get the cheap labour. Dont kid yourself that freedom is everything. some people are left free to starve or die of bad health because they are poor. This is true in the US just as it is in Muslim countries.

ISAW

Suff wrote:

it does work on both sides, they want to silence the muslims by saying it's freedom of speech while the muslims are angry with the level of response from the west so they are using their freedom of speech!

Threatening to kill someone or threatening terror on their country is NOT freedom of speech! It is ad hominal. One should attack the argument made of the message one disagrees with. It is no use shooting the messenger if you don't like the message.

dlofnep

http://nation.ittefaq.com/artman/publish/article_25275.shtml

An article from a different point of view. Interesting read, although I still think it's blown out of proportion.

Mucco

I'm currently wondering what Muhammed would find more offensive, a few poor quality scribbles in a newspaper, or the torching of foreign embassies in His name?

M

ISAW

rsynnott wrote:

Sadly, probably true. I'm glad to see the Danish are standing up to this sort of nonsense, though.

the Danes don't usually do insults but when they do they are probably the best insults in the world.

Binomate

Somg muslim vandalised an innocent Danish website and left a signature to their IRC channel on DALnet. Here is the conversation I had with him. It is quite disturbing that some people actually have this mentality.
IRC logs here! (Open with wordpad)

[12:37:49] <07Aindriu> hello
Aindriu is ~leetsuper@users.proxy.net> * Andrew
Aindriu on #dk-ops 
Aindriu using broadway.ny.us.dal.net The Great White Way
Aindriu has been idle 5secs, signed on Sun Feb 05 12:36:21
Aindriu End of /WHOIS list.
[12:38:32] <07Aindriu> Any muslims here
[12:39:41] <01@kram`otak> yah 
[12:39:44] <01@kram`otak> im moslem
[12:40:02] <07Aindriu> cool cool
[12:40:03] <01@kram`otak> what you need
[12:40:22] <07Aindriu> just came across this
[12:40:24] <07Aindriu> [url]http://www.jacksonaction.com/[/url]
[12:40:35] <01@kram`otak> then ?
[12:40:54] * kram`otak is now known as Death_Knight
[12:41:11] <01@Death_Knight> ireland
[12:41:11] <07Aindriu> "Presented by DK-Ops@DALnet"
[12:41:13] <07Aindriu> yeah
[12:41:43] <01@Death_Knight> i just not happy with denmark goverment
[i]Death_Knight is ~danang@dns3.altair.it * danang
Death_Knight on @#dk-ops @#surabayahelp #America @#surabayahack @#tiongkokmusic @#tiongkok @#auriella @#egyptfm @#arpanet @#irchelpers +#dalnet @#mirjam @#vsutra 
Death_Knight using powertech.no.eu.dal.net PowerTech DALnet Server, Oslo, Norway
Death_Knight has identified for this nick
Death_Knight is away: --=@[MissYou]@=-    
Death_Knight End of /WHOIS list.[/i]
[12:41:51] <01@Death_Knight> if that your site im so sorry
[12:42:04] <07Aindriu> no it's not my site
[12:42:06] <07Aindriu> :)
[12:42:15] <01@Death_Knight> owh, what you need ?
[12:42:22] <07Aindriu> why are you angry at yhe Danish government?
[12:42:30] <07Aindriu> I know the person who's site it is
[12:42:59] <01@Death_Knight> [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_drawings.jpg[/url]
[12:43:02] <07Aindriu> yeah
[12:43:10] <07Aindriu> but did the danish government print them?
[12:43:34] <07Aindriu> newspapers are independant from the danish government
[12:43:41] <07Aindriu> so are websites
[12:43:52] <01@Death_Knight> so ?
[12:43:55] <07Aindriu> JacksonAction.com didn't print or even reproduce the images
[12:44:00] <07Aindriu> so why attack them?
[12:44:10] <01@Death_Knight> because is at DK
[12:44:36] <01@Death_Knight> we fight for our belive
[12:44:53] <01@Death_Knight> same of you belive to your jesus and santa
[12:44:57] <07Aindriu> lol
[12:45:14] <07Aindriu> Have you ever seen the film "The life of Brian"
[12:45:15] <07Aindriu> ?
[12:45:35] <01@Death_Knight> when i paint jesus naked and make sex with dog and put at my web 
[12:45:45] <01@Death_Knight> all chisthian will attact our web
[12:45:51] <07Aindriu> i wouldn't really care to be honest
[12:45:58] <01@Desp> Morning all
[12:46:17] <01@Death_Knight> we just wanna fight againt Denmark Goverment and ask them to say sorry to all moslem
[12:46:20] <01@Death_Knight> thats all
[12:46:38] <07Aindriu> But why target an innocent website?
[12:46:56] <01@Death_Knight> if nececary the president of denmark talk at UN or OKI and make appologize
[12:47:09] <01@Death_Knight> as long it's DK is guilty
[12:47:11] <01@Death_Knight> sorry
[12:47:14] <07Aindriu> surely the newspaper that printed the pictures in the first place have a website
[12:47:23] <01@Death_Knight> dont fight againt fanaticsm
[12:47:27] <07Aindriu> How are they guilty
[12:48:08] <01@Death_Knight> do you know who type and make that pic ?
[12:48:19] <01@Death_Knight> are mohammad have mistake to him ?
[12:48:32] <01@Death_Knight> are all moslem was have mistake to him ?
[12:48:35] <01@Death_Knight> NO!!!
[12:48:41] <01@Death_Knight> moslem not terrorist
[12:48:48] <07Aindriu> nobody said they were
[12:49:00] <07Aindriu> but the need to lighten up a bit
[12:49:19] <07Aindriu> I mean what warrants the burning of a building 
[12:49:30] <07Aindriu> just because someone is offended
[12:49:34] <01@Death_Knight> i just say i fight again who and what i belive
[12:49:37] <01@Death_Knight> i just say i fight again who and what i belive
[12:49:54] <01@Death_Knight> and i wan't to make them know moslem have power
[12:49:56] <01@Death_Knight> hape brain
[12:50:18] <01@Death_Knight> not some idiot who only talk with newpaper
[12:50:24] <01@Death_Knight> we human 
[12:50:54] <01@Death_Knight> when someone who have all respect from all moslem was got like that 
[12:50:58] <07Aindriu> I still don't see how a Danish privately owned newspaper can be connected with the Danish government
[12:51:27] <01@Death_Knight> danish goverment say that is freedome to expression
[12:51:40] <01@Death_Knight> and can't be punish
[12:51:43] <07Aindriu> yes
[12:51:45] <07Aindriu> it was
[12:51:54] <07Aindriu> he had every right to do what he did
[12:51:56] <01@Death_Knight> that is not exprexionis
[12:52:00] <07Aindriu> yes it is
[12:52:03] <01@Death_Knight> that is make a war
[12:52:07] <07Aindriu> he has the freedom of speech
[12:52:14] <07Aindriu> he can say what he wants
[12:52:16] <01@Death_Knight> but not like that 
[12:52:24] <07Aindriu> it's disrespectfull
[12:52:30] <07Aindriu> but that doesn't mean he cant do it
[12:52:40] <01@Death_Knight> and then ?
[12:52:45] <07Aindriu> you can make pictures of Jesus if you want
[12:52:51] <07Aindriu> nobody will stop you
[12:52:58] <01@Death_Knight> i ask, are all moslem have mistake to christian ?
[12:53:01] <07Aindriu> you have the right to do it
[12:53:07] <07Aindriu> huh?
[12:53:29] <01@Death_Knight> we never make human picture
[12:53:43] <01@Death_Knight> Mohammad never painted
[12:53:44] <07Aindriu> I don't think the cartoonist was right but I don't think the Muslims are right in vandalising things just because they are offended
[12:54:11] <07Aindriu> It is against the laws of Islam to make pictures of Muhammed right?
[12:54:56] <01@Death_Knight> we Fight againt Denmark Goverment who give permition and say that is his freedom to make that, sorry we is only make revenge
[12:55:04] <01@Death_Knight> if you wanna complaint 
[12:55:14] <01@Death_Knight> complaint to Denmark goverment
[12:55:16] <07Aindriu> so you are against free speech?
[12:55:39] <01@Death_Knight> we can spech, but they have limit
[12:55:44] <07Aindriu> you would prefer if people weren't allowed to say what they like?
[12:55:44] <01@Death_Knight> we can spech, but they have limit
[12:56:37] <01@Death_Knight> Aindriu : im belive with Allah and i say Mohammad is His Rosul 
[12:56:53] <07Aindriu> i know
[12:57:19] <07Aindriu> why shouldnt someone be able to say what they would like
[12:57:26] <07Aindriu> everyone is entitled to an opinion
[12:57:31] <01@Death_Knight> please don't ever say who make a pic and say that is Mohammad are rite and sould be sorry 
[12:57:48] <07Aindriu> just because their opinion may be different doesn't mean they shouldn't have one
[12:57:57] <07Aindriu> im not saying the cartoons were right
[12:58:04] <01@Death_Knight> and than ?
[12:58:15] * Daithai (here@ipaddresshere) has joined #DK-ops
[12:58:15] <07Aindriu> but he had the right to draw them
[12:58:34] <01@Death_Knight> then ?
[12:58:55] <07Aindriu> so in vandalising someone elses website it puts you in the wrong
[12:59:06] <07Aindriu> there is a way to do things properly
[12:59:59] <01@Death_Knight> i thinkin my do is Jihad 
[13:00:14] <01@Death_Knight> i was fight who fight my religion
[13:00:20] <01@Death_Knight> and that is JIHAD 
[13:01:02] <07Aindriu> but nothing gives you the right to wave Jihads about the place
[13:04:08] <01@Death_Knight> us attact afghan 
[13:04:14] <01@Death_Knight> attact iraq
[13:04:17] <07Aindriu> The US are morons
[13:04:24] <01@Death_Knight> than ?
[13:04:27] <01@Death_Knight> DK is ?
[13:04:36] <07Aindriu> DK has nothing to do with it
[13:05:01] <07Aindriu> A PRIVATE newspaper published them
[13:05:08] <07Aindriu> NOT the Danish Governmen
[13:05:18] <01@Death_Knight> so ireland wanna help DK and fight againts moslem ?
[13:05:37] <07Aindriu> Denmark isn't fighting against Islam
[13:05:43] <07Aindriu> nobody is
[13:05:58] <01@Death_Knight> that pic is fightin' again all moslem 
[13:06:01] <07Aindriu> In my honest opinion the Muslims are making a big deal out of it
[13:06:08] <01@Death_Knight> we not only attact denmark
[13:06:11] <01@Death_Knight> jordania
[13:06:14] <01@Death_Knight> indonesia
[13:06:34] <07Aindriu> im sure it's actually against your religion to attack people
[13:06:54] <07Aindriu> have you ever heard of a religion that promotes violence
[13:06:55] <07Aindriu> ?
[13:08:21] <01@Death_Knight> and are you ever hear moslem paint jesus bring knife ?
[13:08:33] <01@Death_Knight> and bomb at his head ?
[13:08:56] <01@Death_Knight> any religion teach that ?
[13:09:09] <01@Death_Knight> that is chistian newpaper
[13:09:24] <02ijoo> wew
[13:09:26] <02ijoo> wow
[13:09:43] <02ijoo> wih
[13:10:08] <07Aindriu> I'm pretty sure someone has drawn degrading pictures of Jesus
[13:10:17] <07Aindriu> Infact the Christians themselves do it!
[13:10:27] <07Aindriu> They can see the funns side of it 
[13:10:36] <02ijoo> relax :)
[13:11:34] <02ijoo> yez..
[13:11:36] <02ijoo> huehuehueue
[13:11:38] <02ijoo> hahahahhaa
[13:11:39] <07Aindriu> are any of you on Quakenet?
[13:11:47] <02ijoo> nop
[13:12:35] <07Aindriu> By the way
[13:12:37] <07Aindriu> I am Danish
[13:12:45] <07Aindriu> I'm using an Irish proxy
[13:12:46] <07Aindriu> :)
[13:13:29] * Disconnected
Session Close: Sun Feb 05 13:13:29 2006

Suff

Yes, I am a Muslim and some of this is disturbing for me!

Remember than there are 1.2+ Billion Muslims in the World,
what we have seen is less han %0.0 of them, if all Muslims start to use the same type of response as those we have seen in the last few days...
it will be WAR!

I hope someone somewhere is working on a solution to this Madness (both sides the West and the Islamic World).