The Danish Cartoon - pretext to war?? !!??

Lemming

Binomate wrote:

Somg muslim vandalised an innocent Danish website and left a signature to their IRC channel on DALnet. Here is the conversation I had with him. It is quite disturbing that some people actually have this mentality.
IRC logs here!

That is just ... disturbing. Of course, news portrayed in a negative light is so much easier to rabble-rouse with. Few people are mentioning the little fact that it was a muslim group from Denmark that did a tour of the ME to highlight the images in the first place. I believe that is what is commonly referred to as "sh*t stirring" and one has to wonder what was their motive for doing so?

So all these people have basically been misinformed, making what would seem an insult in their eyes into something far more sinister. Classic case of "OMFG won't someone pleeeeeeeease think of the children!!!"

fly_agaric

Suff wrote:

Remember than there are 1.2+ Billion Muslims in the World,
what we have seen is less han %0.0 of them, if all Muslims start to use the same type of response as those we have seen in the last few days...
it will be WAR!

Great stuff. The technology of destruction has advanced well beyond the point where humans can afford wars on this scale.

Everybody loses - not just the godless infidels who make insulting cartoons or the holy mulsims who would defend Mohammed's honour!

I really hope muslim countries and their leaders will be responsible when they get their hands on all these nasty toys over the coming decades.

Sand

Yes, I am a Muslim and some of this is disturbing for me!

Remember than there are 1.2+ Billion Muslims in the World,
what we have seen is less han %0.0 of them, if all Muslims start to use the same type of response as those we have seen in the last few days...
it will be WAR!

I hope someone somewhere is working on a solution to this Madness (both sides the West and the Islamic World).

Actually, not all muslims. A Jordanian paper has called for people to be reasonable in their reaction to the article/cartoons, and reprinted 3 of them - brave move on their part. The editor made the point regarding what made Islam look worse, these cartoons or human sacrifices by fundamentalists? Its sad that cartoons can get the masses out, but not beheadings. The head of Canadian muslim community says violent reactions only feed stereotyping of muslims as dangerous and violent. What is happening is the most violent, loudest shouters make the news. People who shrug and get on with their lives trusting in God/Allah/Whoever to sort out all us unbelievers dont make the news so much. That said, there are pictures of Mohammed and his relatives on display in the Chester Beatty last I heard. Pictures painted by Muslims. As I understand it, its only the Sunnis who are so hardline on it.

Out of curiousity Suff, as someone who seems to have strong convictions regarding your faith, can you explain exactly why an all powerful God needs people going round to sort out blasphemy? Surely if he saw it as all that big a deal an all powerful deity would be able to deal with it himself?

That is just ... disturbing. Of course, news portrayed in a negative light is so much easier to rabble-rouse with. Few people are mentioning the little fact that it was a muslim group from Denmark that did a tour of the ME to highlight the images in the first place. I believe that is what is commonly referred to as "sh*t stirring" and one has to wonder what was their motive for doing so?

So all these people have basically been misinformed, making what would seem an insult in their eyes into something far more sinister. Classic case of "OMFG won't someone pleeeeeeeease think of the children!!!"

I doubt theyve even seen the cartoons or had the context in which they were drawn explained. This Danish muslim group probably painted it as some deliberate, calculated and direct blasphemy. The cartoon with say Mohammed wearing a bomb as a turban ( a clear nod towards the way violence is associated with Islam these days ) has drawn most of the outrage. No one points at the cartoon of the cartoonist anxiously looking over his shoulder as he draws Mohammed, which most clearly states what the whole article was about.

As for the motive, its obvious - political power. A lot of the placards at the rallies are more to do with issues other than the cartoons themselves. I dont think/hope Sharia law will ever come into force in a European country, but a surprising amount of European muslims are in favour of it - perhaps because theyve never encountered it and hear only the good stuff. That said, Id reckon there are factions within European Islam that believe Sharia is the answer to their woes and think they can engineer a deal to achieve at least the option to use it instead of the secular laws of the land. And whilst its unlikely, I dont think its impossible that some moronic-so-called-liberals will give it. Cultural understanding and all.

Suff I think has noted that if people cant see the problem with this blasphemy, then its means nothing is held sacred in Europe anymore. But hes wrong on that I think, as free speech and the right to say what you think is seen as sacred by most, though compromises have been reached in terms of hate speech before. I dont think what was published qualifies as hate speech. Sure, some muslims may find it offensive, but many, many christians found things like Piss Christ or Life of Brian extremely offensive. But our laws and rights have to stand back and recognise that what someone holds as sacred, another person might hold as being wholly wrong and so long as theyre not inciting violence or hatred people need to be adult enough to agree to disagree.

Captain Trips

Suff wrote:

YES!
it's our right to do so!...freedom of speech!

So, if a government that had NOTHING to do with the publishing of the cartoons refused to "apologise" for something it had NOTHING to do with, it's okay to burn embassies and threaten death can hanging to the cartoonist?

Saying you object and being heard is one thing - and the beauty of freedom of speech is that NO-ONE HAS TO LISTEN TO YOU. So the next step, like an angry child throwing a temper tantrum, is to get AK47s and occupy EU offices in Gaza and burn the Danish and Norwegian embassy?

The middle-ages want you back, mate.

Frederico

I'm sitting in an internet cafe right now full of muslims, they don't seem to be rioting or burning anything right now... but I have my eye on them..

In fairness the "look we can make fun of Jesus" argument is just too lame to comment on. Its just rascism plain and simple, plenty of it in Europe, and our great sensationalist media, exercising our free speech to stir up sensitive religious people.

Lemming

Sand wrote:

I doubt theyve even seen the cartoons or had the context in which they were drawn explained. This Danish muslim group probably painted it as some deliberate, calculated and direct blasphemy. The cartoon with say Mohammed wearing a bomb as a turban ( a clear nod towards the way violence is associated with Islam these days ) has drawn most of the outrage. No one points at the cartoon of the cartoonist anxiously looking over his shoulder as he draws Mohammed, which most clearly states what the whole article was about.

As for the motive, its obvious - political power. A lot of the placards at the rallies are more to do with issues other than the cartoons themselves. I dont think/hope Sharia law will ever come into force in a European country, but a surprising amount of European muslims are in favour of it - perhaps because theyve never encountered it and hear only the good stuff. That said, Id reckon there are factions within European Islam that believe Sharia is the answer to their woes and think they can engineer a deal to achieve at least the option to use it instead of the secular laws of the land. And whilst its unlikely, I dont think its impossible that some moronic-so-called-liberals will give it. Cultural understanding and all.

As I said, one has to question the motives since it was quite clearly a concerted effort to whip up Muslim anger across the globe to what would have passed off otherwise as a non-entity outside of Denmark.

However I do disagree with your "Liberal" comment. It seems to me that most western people, of whatever socio-political leaning including those "Liberals" (and how I despise the right-wing for coining that disgusting innuendo), have pretty much said "ok the images might have been in poor taste, but cop the f*ck on like ... " and aren't backpedalling to cater to what are - lets be honest - unreasonable/ disproportionate demands and actions.

Suff

Sand wrote:

Out of curiousity Suff, as someone who seems to have strong convictions regarding your faith, can you explain exactly why an all powerful God needs people going round to sort out blasphemy? Surely if he saw it as all that big a deal an all powerful deity would be able to deal with it himself?

If that was the case then the entire world would believe in GOD!

Sand wrote:

But our laws and rights have to stand back and recognise that what someone holds as sacred, another person might hold as being wholly wrong and so long as theyre not inciting violence or hatred people need to be adult enough to agree to disagree.

I may not agree with your way of life/ faith but I wont go insulting it!
to be an adult is to understand how to treat, respect values, sacred beliefs held by others.

Suff

Captain Trips wrote:

So, if a government that had NOTHING to do with the publishing of the cartoons refused to "apologise" for something it had NOTHING to do with, it's okay to burn embassies and threaten death can hanging to the cartoonist?

no I do not agree with the burning of embassies, it is unfortunate thing t happen.
but the Syrian Goverment did apologies, knwoing that its not responsible for that action. however it does represent the Syrian people therefor if the danish newspaper have insulted the Islamic world the Danish goverment should appologies as it does represent the Danish people.

Captain Trips wrote:

The middle-ages want you back, mate.

No Thank you, you can stay there I'm happy here

Frederico

Frederico wrote:

I'm sitting in an internet cafe right now full of muslims, they don't seem to be rioting or burning anything right now...

Fair enough. And maybe the pictures from Gaza and Syria are all made up. It's another devious plot to undermine their world, first cartoons to get them mad and then fake news stories to make them look entirely unreasonable, when really they're just all milling harmlessly around internet cafes...

Lemming

Suff wrote:

If that was the case then the entire world would believe in GOD!



I may not agree with your way of life/ faith but I wont go insulting it!
to be an adult is to understand how to treat, respect values, sacred beliefs held by others.

Suff, from what I've heard - and I will freely admit that this is hearsay - ME newspapers quite often make fun of the Jewish community, and I'd guess Christianity in it's various guises from time to time also.

So what you are basically implying is that because Islam is so intrinsically (sp?) linked with the social structure of countries where it is the dominate faith that it is therefore beyond critiscm?

OoooooohIDon'tThinkSo.

If you want to look at freedom of speech, muslims actively excercise it when burning flags or effigies or whatever else they perceive as having a slight with. Yet we are not apparently allowed same.

Further, I seem to recall shortly after the "liberation" of Iraq, non-muslim religious centres inside Iraq - which had been there for decades - were getting attacked/burnt/vandalised/etc by those claimnig to be of the Muslim faith. So pardon me if I cough when you mention respect for other religions.

Lemming

Suff wrote:

but the Syrian Goverment did apologies, knwoing that its not responsible for that action. however it does represent the Syrian people therefor if the danish newspaper have insulted the Islamic world the Danish goverment should appologies as it does represent the Danish people.

Eh ... no. Your logic is very, very flawed there Suff. The Syrian government apologised because a foreign embassy, on its land, was not protected by the state security services when it needed them to.

A newspaper in Denmark does not represent or speak for the Danish people. If it were a government published paper, perhaps. But it's not. So how you can claim the Danish government must apologise is ludicrous.

Embassies are in place at the invite of the local government with agreements with the foreign power obviously. Biiiiiiiiiiigggggggg difference to a newspaper.

Frederico

Deleted User wrote:

Fair enough. And maybe the pictures from Gaza and Syria are all made up. It's another devious plot to undermine their world, first cartoons to get them mad and then fake news stories to make them look entirely unreasonable, when really they're just all milling harmlessly around internet cafes...

Haha, I guess these must be the only muslims not burning down an embassy right now.. maybe Sky News should do one of their token "from the other side" stories and interview them as to why they aren't beheading people and burning down embassies.

rsynnott

Suff wrote:

Yes, I am a Muslim and some of this is disturbing for me!

Remember than there are 1.2+ Billion Muslims in the World,
what we have seen is less han %0.0 of them, if all Muslims start to use the same type of response as those we have seen in the last few days...
it will be WAR!

I hope someone somewhere is working on a solution to this Madness (both sides the West and the Islamic World).

No solution would seem to be needed on the Western side. It's over and done with. There is not going to be a war over this silliness.

Suff wrote:

I may not agree with your way of life/ faith but I wont go insulting it!
to be an adult is to understand how to treat, respect values, sacred beliefs held by others.

A certain amount of playful disrespect and trivialisation of religion is a good thing; it lessens the power that religious bodies hold over people.

And would I be right in thinking that some of the governments and newspapers having hissy fits about these cartoons have in the past engaged in holocaust denial, and other marked disrespect for other groups?

Sand

If that was the case then the entire world would believe in GOD!

Youve dodged the question there Suff. If God is all powerful, then he wouldnt need a mortal army. People who run around claiming to be that mortal army are demonstrating their own lack of faith in God. Lets face it, even the worst blasphemer is going to hell in a handbasket. Do mortals have a right to make Gods judgements on his behalf, imperfect as they are compared to the Almighty?

I may not agree with your way of life/ faith but I wont go insulting it!
to be an adult is to understand how to treat, respect values, sacred beliefs held by others.

Thats not the way it works Suff. Followers of David Koresh might get very offended if someone described him as a dangerous, manipulative cultist but tough for them.

However I do disagree with your "Liberal" comment. It seems to me that most western people, of whatever socio-political leaning including those "Liberals" (and how I despise the right-wing for coining that disgusting innuendo), have pretty much said "ok the images might have been in poor taste, but cop the f*ck on like ... " and aren't backpedalling to cater to what are - lets be honest - unreasonable/ disproportionate demands and actions.

Well, Im very wary of the "right-on" attitudes about being unable to judge something as wrong, that we just dont understand other cultures, that so called western civillisation doesnt have all the answers etc etc. The people who refuse to see *anything* as other than grey. I can see adherents to that line of thinking happily allying with hardline supporters of Sharia. Thats why Id refer to them as so-called liberals. I dont consider them liberal whatsoever as theyd sacrifice those values, such as one law for all people regardless of their faith. Sharia law is already being touted in Canada as government policy for family issues- though now the Liberal party there got voted it out it may be dropped. It sets a dangerous precedent, and according to that story the advocate was comparing Sharia to Roman Catholic and Jewish arbitration tribunals which demonstrates that "right-on" attitude Im talking about.

And whilst the Danish government has proven resilient so far, I simply dont trust the likes of Bertie to stand firm if he came under any pressure whatsoever here.

rsynnott

Sand wrote:

Sharia law is already being touted in Canada as government policy for family issues- though now the Liberal party there got voted it out it may be dropped. It sets a dangerous precedent, and according to that story the advocate was comparing Sharia to Roman Catholic and Jewish arbitration tribunals which demonstrates that "right-on" attitude Im talking about.

*blinks*

Are they MAD?!

Whistle Blower

Oh again the Rent a mob got a bus from Damscus last night and a few Mc'D's and headed for Beruit....


They are acting liked Hormonal teenagers now the Danish embassy there is on fire......


Freedom of Speech EH ! my left arse cheek !

Captain Trips

Suff wrote:

no I do not agree with the burning of embassies, it is unfortunate thing t happen.
but the Syrian Goverment did apologies, knwoing that its not responsible for that action. however it does represent the Syrian people therefor if the danish newspaper have insulted the Islamic world the Danish goverment should appologies as it does represent the Danish people.

But that's utter nonsense. An attack on an embassy IS an attack on a governement of a foreign country. So when the embassies were burned, the Syrian government as the government in charge of keeping order and maintaining relations would have been totally correct - they failed to protect diplomatic buildings in it's territory. Likewise, if a bunch of Danish youth attacked the Syrian embassy in Copenhagen, it would be important that the Danish government respond to that appropriately.

BUT - some CARTOONIST drew some CARTOONS. So the Danish government has **** ALL to do with what that guy says. The cartoonist didn't attack any property physically or threaten harm to anyone, nor did he do anything criminal.

1. the Syrian government apologised for it's citizens attacking diplomatic missions in it's territory. That's very proper.
2. The Danish government didn't apologise for some cartoons.

Are you honestly truly absolutely utterly determined to compare a flipping cartoon with burning down an embassy??

BlitzKrieg

BUT - some CARTOONIST drew some CARTOONS. So the Danish government has **** ALL to do with what that guy says.

again for the millionth time, There was misinformation that the newspaper in dnemark was owned by the majority party in denmark:

wikipedia wrote:

Ownership confusion

Further disinformation reportedly spread amongst Arab Muslims includes claims that Jyllands-Posten is a government-owned newspaper, which in incorrect. For example, the spokesman for the Danish delegation Muhammed al Samha, and delegation member Ahmed al-Harbi said in the Egyptian newspaper al-Ahram: "Jyllands-Posten, a newspaper belonging to the ruling Danish party — an extreme right-wing party — [was] publishing drawings and sketches of the prophet Muhammad."[citation needed]

Other claims include statements that Danish newspapers are running a campaign against Islam[citation needed] and that the Danish government is planning to publish a censored version of the Qur'an.[citation needed] The confusion might have arisen because of the recent publication of Kåre Bluitgen's children's book Koranen og profeten Muhammeds liv ("The Qur'an and the life of Prophet Muhammed"). It is not published by the government but by an independent publisher (Høst og Søn).

and

wikipedia wrote:

Confusion between editors-in-chief

Per Kokkvold, the general secretary of the Norwegian Press Society has incorrectly been identified as both the editor-in-chief of Jyllands-Posten, and the artist who created the drawings. His picture has been shown on Al-Arabiya and other TV channels, as well as in printed and online newspapers. Kokkvold has attempted to correct this error, but is not optimistic of success, "if foreign newspapers are as bad at correcting their mistakes as Norwegian ones."[40]

The Corinthian

Lemming wrote:

As I said, one has to question the motives since it was quite clearly a concerted effort to whip up Muslim anger across the globe to what would have passed off otherwise as a non-entity outside of Denmark.

Clearly a concerted effort? Only if one ascribes to conspiracy theories at the drop of a hat, otherwise it’s not clearly any kind of effort. Of course it may be an effort, concerted or otherwise, to whip up Muslim anger across the globe (unlikely, TBH) but this is hardly as clearly established, as you seem to suggest.

However I do disagree with your "Liberal" comment. It seems to me that most western people, of whatever socio-political leaning including those "Liberals" (and how I despise the right-wing for coining that disgusting innuendo), have pretty much said "ok the images might have been in poor taste, but cop the f*ck on like ... " and aren't backpedalling to cater to what are - lets be honest - unreasonable/ disproportionate demands and actions.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4226758.stm

(Edit: already been cited by Sand, I see)

Sand

*blinks*

Are they MAD?!

Hard to say. They certainly seem to think Sharia is comparable to Cannon law.

Back on topic, it was great to see the US coming out in support of freedom of speech. Cheers for the help lads. Obviously a play to try and be on the populist side of a muslim issue for once.

rsynnott

Sand wrote:

Hard to say. They certainly seem to think Sharia is comparable to Cannon law.

Back on topic, it was great to see the US coming out in support of freedom of speech. Cheers for the help lads. Obviously a play to try and be on the populist side of a muslim issue for once.

Well, they don't enforce canon law, do they?

And good to see some people are condemning them, at least. I was unimpressed by the Vatican's implicit endorsement...

Wibbs

ISAW wrote:

I don't think that is confined to Muslims. If you are referring to Saudi Arabia (big pals and clients of Bush) then that is a dictatorship and not really a Muslim state.

They would doubtless disagree, given that they are the keepers of the most sacred sites of Islam.

Wow! we agree on this too. Yu seem to understand that wanting to kill other people for the likes of a cartoon is as much against Muslijm thinking as it is against Christian.

Not quite. While IIRC worship no idols before me comes into it(against representations of holy types), in no part of the Christian canon does it say that those who mock the prophet must die. In islam it does. The cartoons would fall under that it seems.

Really? where? I seem to remember that during the Crusades christians treated cities much much worse than Muslims.

Largely a fallacy. They were both equally vicious

You really should read your Bible. For a geographically apt reference :- Try Pslam 137 - "By the rivers of Babylon". Look at the last two lines.

Luckily, the west is increasingly secular and not mired in the middle ages. BTW. You really should read your Quran and life of the Prophet.

Binomate wrote:

Somg muslim vandalised an innocent Danish website and left a signature to their IRC channel on DALnet. Here is the conversation I had with him. It is quite disturbing that some people actually have this mentality.

Bloody hell. What comes across very strongly is the lack of understanding that the papers aren't controlled by the government. That and blind stupidity from someone who has the education to hack into websites. Scary. Imagine what the uneducated are thinking.

Sand wrote:

Actually, not all muslims. A Jordanian paper has called for people to be reasonable ..

Yep and that bloody brave editor has been sacked and has already had death threats. That guy is a hero in my eyes.

Vangelis

gabhain7 wrote:

Why the hell should they humble themselves? They were exercising their right to free speech in a country that guarantees free speech. Their conduct did not advocate the commission of a crime (such as the free speech we tolerate from some islamic fanatics).

They weren't criticising the right to freedom of expression, free speech or freedom of speech(all are the same thing!). They were offended by one particular caricature, not by anyone's right to express their views.

It's our right to ridicule and poke fun at religions and other systems of beliefs, because they are ideas, and if they are strong they should be able to stand up to them. Restrictions on freedom of speech should be constrictly construed for only the most necessary of reasons, that forgeiners in a forgein land find it offensive is not good enough.

Fine. Exercise your right. And die.

We should have the right to offend other religions. I have the right to say that the prophet was not devinely inspired, that he heard the voices in his head from some mental illness. That the quaran was rewritten to remove references to a goddess that Rushdie alleges was in the original version. Practioners of islam may find my statements create awkward questions in their mind, but tough, live with it.

Do what you want. But what you want to do may not always be so WISE.

And there are more important things than defending one's right to speak up. Discretion and respect for instance. We are not all the same.

Personally, I did support the Muslim view. But not now any longer now that they've burnt down Norwegiand an Danish embassies. Have you guys seen how they behave on TV? Primitive monkeys, that's what they are.

Vangelis

rsynnott wrote:

The paper should absolutely not back down just because of crazy threats.

Oh... and they are not JUST "silly threats". They WILL ACT and they have begun ALLREADY.

Vangelis

I apologise for making three posts, it's really not necessary, but I have to say...

I'm scared. For my country and the people I love. Osama bin Laden has allready stated that Norway is one of his army's main targets. Now, the whole Muslim extremist community all over the world is against us. It wasn't like that before.

There is a great gap between the Westerm civilisation and that of the Islamic civilization. Muslims of the extreme sort are spreading in my country. And i Norway we see that many of these Muslims aren't capable of adjusting to Norwegian norms for behaviour. I'm beginning to see the rage they pour over my nation for what "we" have done. They blame the whole country for ONE newspaper's "transgression".

MANY Muslims want Norwegians to conform to THEIR way of living.

That is one of the reasons why they do not accept that newspapers' expressions and now threaten to use violence against Norwegians.

This cultural gap that is between Western civilization and Islam cannot simply be erased by "diplomatic" conversations. The rage against anything anti-Islamic is imprinted in these Muslims and it cannot simply go away.

So I'm afraid. I've never been so afraid for my country as now. Never really cared for my country untill now. Because this is unfair.

Last night I was so disturbed that I cried. Seeing angry Muslims who beat their fists in the air like apes is very scary, no matter how imbecilic it looked. And seeing them burn embassies. Together they are strong.

I was horrified. I've never felt such a fear ever.

Hobbes

Vangelis wrote:

MANY Muslims want Norwegians to conform to THEIR way of living.

That is one of the reasons why they do not accept that newspapers' expressions and now threaten to use violence against Norwegians.

No they used the laws to try and get an apology for an offensive cartoon and were told to suck it up. Then brought it to the government and were ignored. Then to add insult to injury despite being told the cartoon was offensive felt the need to post it in other papers.

Has absolutly nothing to do with wanting to change Norwegians way of life.

Lemming

The Corinthian wrote:

Clearly a concerted effort? Only if one ascribes to conspiracy theories at the drop of a hat, otherwise it’s not clearly any kind of effort. Of course it may be an effort, concerted or otherwise, to whip up Muslim anger across the globe (unlikely, TBH) but this is hardly as clearly established, as you seem to suggest.

Corrie, a Danish Muslim group did a tour of the ME to bring attention to these cartoons. Exactly what isn't a concerted effort on their part about that?

Beyond their efforts, I'd call it mass hysterical reaction to mis-information. Not so concerted, or an effort.

As for the Canadian law proposals, they were presented before this current tempest in a tea-cup, which I am referring to with regards the seemingly majority western opinion that I'm getting of "calm the f*ck down"

Lemming

Hobbes wrote:

No they used the laws to try and get an apology for an offensive cartoon and were told to suck it up. Then brought it to the government and were ignored. Then to add insult to injury despite being told the cartoon was offensive felt the need to post it in other papers.

Has absolutly nothing to do with wanting to change Norwegians way of life.

Hobbes, yes it does have everything to do with the Danes way of life.

Lets look at this. They tried to use laws to get an apology from a newspaper. The law of the land to which they live under, said "sorry, no dice. This is not a crime".

So, suck it up.

They were tried to lobby government and were told that since the courts had ruled on it, it was pretty much open and shut.

So suck it up.

OTHER media outlets, incensed by the attempt to curtail free-speech then decided to post it. After all, it is hot news right now and everyone wants to talk about it. So who's fault is it that it gained so much publicity?

Most people will leave it at lobbying government - or will persist. Most lobbying groups have to push for a long time for whatever it is they're seeking. But instead this muslim group went for a far more sinister option. Incitement with their claims of "war against their religion" which is a, lets be realistic here, idiotic statement to make. They would have known the context in which the illustrations were made, and deliberately misled other muslims when telling them about these cartoons.

ISAW

Wibbs wrote:

They would doubtless disagree, given that they are the keepers of the most sacred sites of Islam.

No not really. Having been camped there for decades, the Yanks puled out of Saudi Arabia when they invaded Iraq. The Us don't have such a huge presence in SA anymore. They moved next door.

Not quite. While IIRC worship no idols before me comes into it(against representations of holy types), in no part of the Christian canon does it say that those who mock the prophet must die. In islam it does. The cartoons would fall under that it seems.

Well let's see then. Let us just take the book of law:

A man curses and blasphemes while disputing with another man. Moses asks God what to do about it. God says that the whole community must stone him to death. "And the children of Israel did as the Lord and Moses commanded." Leviticus 24:10-23

All "devoted" things (both man and beast) "shall surely be put to death." 27:28-29

If priests misbehave at the tabernacle by uncovering their heads, tearing their clothes, leaving with holy oil on them, or by drinking "wine or strong drink", then God will kill them and send his wrath on "all the people." 10:6-9

Kill anyone who "gives his seed" to Molech. If you refuse, God will cut you and your family off. 20:2-5

For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." 20:9

Both parties in adultery shall be executed. 20:10

If a man has sex with his father's wife, kill them both. 20:11

If a man "lies" with his daughter-in-law, then both must be killed. 20:12

If a man has sex with another man, kill them both. 20:13

If you "lie" with your wife and your mother-in-law (now that sounds fun!), then all three of you must be burned to death. 20:14

If a man or woman "lie with a beast" both the person and the poor animal are to be killed. 20:15-16

People with "familiar spirits" (witches, fortune tellers, etc.) are to be stoned to death. 20:27

A priest's daughter who "plays the whore" is to be burned to death. 21:9

Largely a fallacy. They were both equally vicious

Maybe. What about this?:

1098, Fall of Antioch: 100,000 Moslems massacred
1099, Fall of Jerusalem: 70,000 Moslems massacred.
Siege of Tiberias: 30,000 Christians k.
Siege of Tyre: 1,000 Turks
Richard the Lionhearted executes 3,000 Moslem POWs.
1291: 100,000 Christians k after fall of Acre.
Fall of Christian Antioch: 17,000 massacred.

Albigensian Crusade (1208-49)
Rummel: 200,000 democides
Helen Ellerbe, The Dark Side of Christian History: 1,000,000
Max Dimont, Jews, God, and History: 1,000,000 Frenchmen suspected of being Albigensians slain
Michael Newton, Holy Homicide (1998): 1,000,000


From Aletheia, The Rationalist's Manual (1897)
7,000,000 during the Saracen slaughters in Spain.
2,000,000 Saxons and Scandinavians lost their lives opposing the introduction of Christianity.
1,000,000 in the Holy Wars against the Netherlands, Albigenses, Waldenses, and Huguenots.

Bethancourt: The Killings of Witches, lists 628 named and 268,331 unnamed witches killed as of Dec. 2000, and estimates that between 20,000 and 500,000 people were killed as witches. [http://www.illusions.com/burning/burnwitc.htm?]

St. Bartholomew's Massacre, France (1572)
The 11th edition of Britannica (1911) : 50,000 in the whole of France

The Thirty Years War (1618-48)
Population LossRichard Dunn, The Age of Religious Wars 1559-1715: Empire was 7-8M fewer

Ireland
Charles Carlton, Going to the Wars (1992)
1672 estimate of Protestants d. by war, disease, malnutrition: 112,000, incl. 37,000 massacred at outbreak. Carlton says that 37,000 is exaggeration by factor of 9 or 10.
Catholic d.: 504,000
Total: 618,000


Medieval wars as a whole:
Pitirim Sorokin estimated that Europeans lost some 435,000 men on the battlefield between 900 and 1450 CE: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm

Luckily, the west is increasingly secular and not mired in the middle ages. BTW. You really should read your Quran and life of the Prophet.

I did some years ago. A lot of the same is in Jewish/christian scripts. Indeed the Jews have the srories of all the Prophets bar Mohammad wuith much more detail and the christians have much much more on Jesus.

Surah 9
Those who oppose Allah and His messenger will burn in the fire of hell. 9:63

If you refuse to fight, Allah will afflict you with a painful doom. 9:39

Believers must fight for Allah. They must kill and be killed , and are bound to do so by the Torah, Gospel, and Quran. But Allah will reward them for it. 9:111

Surah 5:
Those who make war with Allah and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom. 5:33

Bloody hell. What comes across very strongly is the lack of understanding that the papers aren't controlled by the government. That and blind stupidity from someone who has the education to hack into websites. Scary. Imagine what the uneducated are thinking.

It happens to educated people as well. Many so called "Muslims" are well educated but wilfully ignorant of such things, just as many westerners and
so called "Christians" are. Noam Chomsky spoke a deal about this "willful ignorance" on his trip to Dublin.

Yep and that bloody brave editor has been sacked and has already had death threats. That guy is a hero in my eyes.

Sadly, the same type of guy would be blacklisted and spurned by Fox news for speaking his mind if his mind happened to be anti Bush.

ISAW

Vangelis wrote:

I'm scared. For my country and the people I love. Osama bin Laden has allready stated that Norway is one of his army's main targets. Now, the whole Muslim extremist community all over the world is against us. It wasn't like that before.

It is not like that now. In Ireland people went on with life but the rest of the world thought there was a huge war on.

There is a great gap between the Westerm civilisation and that of the Islamic civilization. Muslims of the extreme sort are spreading in my country.

The east had civilisation FIRST! How do you know extremism is spreading at such a great rate? What evidence hove you got? Or do you just believe the fear filled messages in the media? REmember the "white powder" in the mail and the anthrax threat? People were paralized by fear. How many died? Three? four? But the media built up a big head of steam didnt they?

And i Norway we see that many of these Muslims aren't capable of adjusting to Norwegian norms for behaviour.

Nor are many Americans or gypsies. So what? If they are breaking the law you have ways of dealing with that.

I'm beginning to see the rage they pour over my nation for what "we" have done. They blame the whole country for ONE newspaper's "transgression".

Was that not in denmark?

Snip...

This cultural gap that is between Western civilization and Islam cannot simply be erased by "diplomatic" conversations. The rage against anything anti-Islamic is imprinted in these Muslims and it cannot simply go away.

So I'm afraid. I've never been so afraid for my country as now. Never really cared for my country untill now. Because this is unfair.

Last night I was so disturbed that I cried. Seeing angry Muslims who beat their fists in the air like apes is very scary, no matter how imbecilic it looked. And seeing them burn embassies. Together they are strong.

this has really no basis in fact. It is a media creation. It is also assisted by muslim and christian and jewish fundamentalists. Do you really believe that in Muslim countries everyone keeps several flags of western democracies? So how come there are all of a sudden loads of DANISH flags being burned? Where did they come from? Obviously people are being manipulated and handed flags from some group who procured them. This was designed to attract media attention and is not a "sporadic" gesture. It was PLANNED! Don't be foolish and think all muslims think like that just as they shouldn't think all westerners are like Bush.

I was horrified. I've never felt such a fear ever.

This is the type of paralysis that got the neo - conservatives into power. If there is no enemy they will manufacture one. Don't be afraid - BE AWARE!