Why alcohol is forbidden?

Suff

Why alcohol is forbidden?

Can you live without it?

Discuss Alcohol's Social, health effects!

Wibbs

Ah a subject away from the current madness.

Alcohol eh? Well I lived without it for most of my 20's. Took it up again a couple of years ago. I'd have a pint(s) now, glass of red wine or two. I would say that in moderation, I'm better with it than without it. I can take it or leave it though.

It's relaxing, chills people out and in moderate doses is good for you(no surprise there). The problem is the larger doses are bad for people and society, but I would say 90%+ of people don't have that problem. You'll always have the muppets anyway. Every culture that's existed has had some drug taking or other. As a drug in small doses alcohol ain't the worst IMHO.

marco murphy

It is forbidden as you cant concentrate while praying, which requires concentration.

Wibbs

Fair enough Poblachtach I can see why showing up to morning prayers a few under would be well out of order, but what about other times when prayer isn't an issue? Though IIRC Qadri posted a good explanation some of the anti alcohol stance and the reason it was allowed at the start of Islam, but later changed to a full ban. The more studious among you might dig it out as I'm off for a pint soon(I'm not takin the p!ss, I actually am, though tonight I'm driving so it'll be a pint of Ballygowan so....:) ).

larryone

I was going through bits of the Quran*, and found a piece in 47:15

"Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord."

Does this promise rivers of wine to the righteous?

so I did a bit of further searching for references to wine, (76:21)

"Upon them will be green Garments of fine silk and heavy brocade, and they will be adorned with Bracelets of silver; and their Lord will give to them to drink of a Wine Pure and Holy."

and 83:22-25

22. Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss:
23. On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things):
24. Thou wilt recognise in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss.
25. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed:

So maybe if you're righteous you can have alcohol, but there are similar references condemning it as sinful. Bit of a Catch22?

*http://www.faizani.com/quran-koran/index.html

ShayHT

Slightly moving of the topic, but why are softdrinks more expensive than beer?!

I'm a non-drinker and a pint of coke costs upto €8 depending where you go.:mad:

larryone

I think you'll find much better forums for discussing that elsewhere on boards.

Karoma

That is off topic, and bears no relevance in the context of a discussion re: Islam.

"Alcohol is the mother of all evils and it is the most shameful of evils"

In fairness, you only have to look at Ireland and the other people/faiths that exist to know why alcohol should be banned. Many faiths (not just Islam) discourage or prohibit alcohol consumption as it distracts one from enlightenment, can take control of ones life, and often leads one to a path of violent crime.

Suff

larryone wrote:

I was going through bits of the Quran*, and found a piece in 47:15

"Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord."

Does this promise rivers of wine to the righteous?

so I did a bit of further searching for references to wine, (76:21)

"Upon them will be green Garments of fine silk and heavy brocade, and they will be adorned with Bracelets of silver; and their Lord will give to them to drink of a Wine Pure and Holy."

and 83:22-25

22. Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss:
23. On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things):
24. Thou wilt recognise in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss.
25. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed:

So maybe if you're righteous you can have alcohol, but there are similar references condemning it as sinful. Bit of a Catch22?

*http://www.faizani.com/quran-koran/index.html

hehehehehe.....no no
The wine is in Heaven only, you can only be righteous after you die! (no more sin)

lots of free drink in heaven lads!

Suff

ShayHT wrote:

I'm a non-drinker and a pint of coke costs upto €8 depending where you go.:mad:

the answer is....... WATER!
thats what I do

larryone

Karoma wrote:

"Alcohol is the mother of all evils and it is the most shameful of evils"

In fairness, you only have to look at Ireland and the other people/faiths that exist to know why alcohol should be banned. Many faiths (not just Islam) discourage or prohibit alcohol consumption as it distracts one from enlightenment, can take control of ones life, and often leads one to a path of violent crime.

Got a referance for that quote? I havent read the whole Quran yet.

I dont think banning alcohol is the answer. They tried prohibition of it in the US and it caused more problems than it solved. I think more of an understanding of the cause of alcoholism and how to deal with it makes more sense. I think if respect and understanding is taught with regard to a substance then the risk of substance abuse is greatly reduced. Distracting from enlightenment? Maybe if you're pissed all the time, but an occasional pint?

Blub2k4

As far as I know, but this is open to correction, alcohol is not forbidden by Islam.
Mohammed disapproved of excess and made this known in the Quran but did not forbid it, Sharia forbids alcohol.
The words of Mohammed were something to the effect of anything in excess is not good, alcohol and hashish were the easiest targets, Sharia also punishes drug dealing with death.

<edit>I only just saw who opened the topic, I dunno if this is the angle meant.

larryone

Well the question is why alcohol is forbidden, so your post is certainly relevant.

Could I live without it? I've done so for over 6 months here and there. If I really had to, I could live without it completely. (but I dont really want to)

Karoma

larryone wrote:

Got a referance for that quote? I havent read the whole Quran yet.

..oddly, the best I can provide:
Sheikh Younus Al-Zalawi - www.islamireland.ie .
http://islamireland.ie/events-activities/news/news/article/83/1/neste/1/

I dont think banning alcohol is the answer. They tried prohibition of it in the US and it caused more problems than it solved.

I personally disagree prohibition. Prohibition is the making unlwaful of consuming alcohol; whereas with Islam it's a personal vow to submit and be obedient, through purity, to god...

Distracting from enlightenment? Maybe if you're pissed all the time, but an occasional pint?

Do you honestly think clearer with even as little as one pint? And how many (especially, Irish) people stop after literally one?

Islam is not the only faith to discourage alcohol consumption; it's just one of the few remaining faiths were the followers remain loyal.

Suff

larryone wrote:

Got a referance for that quote? I havent read the whole Quran yet.

that's not from the Quraan.

I dont think banning alcohol is the answer. They tried prohibition of it in the US and it caused more problems than it solved. I think more of an understanding of the cause of alcoholism and how to deal with it makes more sense. I think if respect and understanding is taught with regard to a substance then the risk of substance abuse is greatly reduced. Distracting from enlightenment? Maybe if you're pissed all the time, but an occasional pint?

before the law came, Muslims used to drink every night as that was there arab traditions, there are a aya in the Quraan where GOD states: "Dont come into Prayer while you are drunk" (very rough translation!)
so it was taken into moderation, I dont think people who used to drink can stop "." they have to take the time to reduce the body's addection.

Suff

Karoma wrote:

Do you honestly think clearer with even as little as one pint? And how many (especially, Irish) people stop after literally one?

Alcohol has the effect of reducing the Brain's reaction speed to the world around the drinker. it can activate all kinds of moods depending in the pyhcological state of the person, it also have a double effect on the body.
it can be good and bad in the same time.

larryone

So as Bulb2k4 was saying, it's not the Quran but Sharia that forbids it. The Quran doesnt forbid drinking, just coming to prayer while intoxicated? I certainly think I could live with that.

Talliesin

Karoma wrote:

Do you honestly think clearer with even as little as one pint? And how many (especially, Irish) people stop after literally one?

It's worth remembering that until relatively recently quite a large number of Irish people were tee-totallers, and this was often seen as related to their faith (being in the vast majority of cases one or other form of Christianity). The Irish have a reputation which originated in the way in which we drink (which is highly visible, and most often not with food) and a tendency in recent more affluent years to strive to live up to our reputation.

Christianity makes use of alcohol in its rituals, as do many other faiths including Judaism, Wicca and Heathenry, but has always condemned excessive drunkenness (Wicca and Heathenry are not so much opposed to drunkenness but the lack of deliberate action repeated drunkenness will bring into one's life will make you a poor Witch or Heathen). Even in Vodoun, which makes ritual use of drunkenness, one still has to be able to function and make the drunkenness work for you, rather than work for the drunkenness.

The warnings against wine in Islam are exceptional.

jimmycrackcorm

Karoma wrote:

"Alcohol is the mother of all evils and it is the most shameful of evils"

In fairness, you only have to look at Ireland and the other people/faiths that exist to know why alcohol should be banned. Many faiths (not just Islam) discourage or prohibit alcohol consumption as it distracts one from enlightenment, can take control of ones life, and often leads one to a path of violent crime.

Well I must need enlightenment as I'm left wondering how I manage to live in Ireland and once a week got to the pub after work to have two Guinness with which I relax while I read my paper. Definitely a bannable offence.

While we are at it we shoudl ban cars too we can manage with bicycles and donkeys as we once dit. Cars are evil as they encourage you to speed and you only have to look at how many more lives are lost due to car usage than due to drink.

Wibbs

Suff wrote:

I dont think people who used to drink can stop "." they have to take the time to reduce the body's addection.

Well Suff, I wouldn't altogether agree with you ther. They would be extreme examples IMHO. Most can stop(or not drink excessively). Few drinkers would be what you would describe as addicts. As I say I can take or leave it. I just prefer to take it sometimes, depending on the situation(and i think you'll agree I'm no saint:D ).

Talliesin wrote:

It's worth remembering that until relatively recently quite a large number of Irish people were tee-totallers, and this was often seen as related to their faith (being in the vast majority of cases one or other form of Christianity).

Very true. In my childhood, I remember many lectures on the evils of drink from priests. Even today, some of the protestant faiths in the US are against alcohol. A friend of mine lives in the states and one of his ex girlfriends, whom you would describe as a very "bible belt" Christian is a teetotaller and even goes as far as to believe that Jesus didn't drink wine but grape juice(I kid you not), so it's not just Islam. Sorry I can't recall the particular branch of Christianity she belonged to, but I do recall how "strange" some of her views where, when compared to mainstream Christians. Very anti Jew/pro creationism/right wing kind of thing.

Christianity makes use of alcohol in its rituals, as do many other faiths including Judaism, Wicca and Heathenry..../.....The warnings against wine in Islam are exceptional.

I always wondered why myself, given that Islam is from the same source as Judaism and Christianity, which has refrences to alcohol all over the place(not withstanding my earlier example above).

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

you only have to look at how many more lives are lost due to car usage than due to drink.

Or you could argue that the mixture of the two is much of the problem

Suff

Wibbs wrote:

Well Suff, I wouldn't altogether agree with you ther. They would be extreme examples IMHO. Most can stop(or not drink excessively). Few drinkers would be what you would describe as addicts. As I say I can take or leave it. I just prefer to take it sometimes, depending on the situation

My point was...even if you drink one glass of Wine your body reaction is not the same as it would have been if sober.

Wibbs wrote:

and i think you'll agree I'm no saint:D

neither am I

Suff

larryone wrote:

So as Bulb2k4 was saying, it's not the Quran but Sharia that forbids it. The Quran doesnt forbid drinking, just coming to prayer while intoxicated? I certainly think I could live with that.

The first revealed Chapters of the Quraan did not forbid Alcohol, it only asked not to come in prayer if you had a drink, it was forbidden in later revealed Chapters.

It's a sin to Drink alcohol, however a person can repent and remove this sin as log as they dont return to it.

And in some cases it's ok to drink it (to survive thirst)
if I had a meal that was cooked with some Wine without me knowing it wouldnt be a sin. I always ask just to be careful:)

Blub2k4

Suff wrote:

The first revealed Chapters of the Quraan did not forbid Alcohol, it only asked not to come in prayer if you had a drink, it was forbidden in later revealed Chapters.

I dont understand what you mean by later revealed chapters? Was it similar to old testament vs new testament where politics were mixed in and things changed to suit an agenda?

Wibbs

Suff wrote:

My point was...even if you drink one glass of Wine your body reaction is not the same as it would have been if sober.

That's the point.:D Though some might consider me less of an irishman if just one glass did it.....;) I would say (and many doctors would agree) that if you have one or two glasses of wine a day with a meal, you will live longer and have a healthier heart and arteries. A bottle a day might be an issue though. Everything in moderation. The rest is down to personal faith though.

Wibbs

Blub2k4 wrote:

Was it similar to old testament vs new testament where politics were mixed in and things changed to suit an agenda?

Later verses abrogate(over rule) earlier verses. The explanation for the change with wine is apparently to give time to the early Muslims to give it up for good, with increasing restrictions. Allah's 12 step program so to speak.

larryone

But from what I understood the Quran was not written in chronological order - I could be wrong. I mean the individual books (or surahs) are listed in a particular order, but that doesnt really mean they were actually written in that order, does it?

larryone

Suff wrote:

The first revealed Chapters of the Quraan did not forbid Alcohol, it only asked not to come in prayer if you had a drink, it was forbidden in later revealed Chapters.

It's a sin to Drink alcohol, however a person can repent and remove this sin as log as they dont return to it.

Could you refer me to the chapters that actually forbid it? As I was saying I havent read the whole thing yet.

If it's a sin to drink alcohol, does that mean that Jesus committed sin when he drank wine? (And no, I am not trying to assert the idea that Jesus was totally without sin, nor am I trying to provoke any Christians that would condemn me to hell eternal for such "blasphemy")

Clinical Waste

Why aren't cigarettes and hubbly-bubbly and chewing gatt (or whatever it is ) banned also?

Suff

Wibbs wrote:

Later verses abrogate(over rule) earlier verses. The explanation for the change with wine is apparently to give time to the early Muslims to give it up for good, with increasing restrictions. Allah's 12 step program so to speak.

Correct on the step by step on wine, however the Quraan doesnt have over rulling laws in it, you can take the interpetations for the wine as follows as some scholars put it, ok alcohol is forbidden however the verse that adress the prayer is still valid, some Muslims do drink wine, beer or whatever but the above law "not to come in prayer if drunk" still applies for them if they get drunk.

Suff

larryone wrote:

Could you refer me to the chapters that actually forbid it? As I was saying I havent read the whole thing yet.

Sure,

first to answer the question about the Qur'an, several separate verses revealed at different times over a period of 23 years.

At first, it was forbidden to attend to prayers while intoxicated

Suret: Al Nesa - (The Women 4:43)
"O you who believe! Approach not the prayer when you are in a drunken state until you know (the meaning) of what you utter, nor when you are in a an unholy/ unclensed state, except when travelling on the road, till you wash your whole body. And if you are ill, or on a journey, or one of you comes after answering the call of nature, or you have been in contact with women (by sexual relations) and you find no water, clean yourselfs with earth and rub therewith your faces and hands (Tayammum). Truly, Allah is Ever OftPardoning, OftForgiving. "

Then a later verse was revealed which said that....
alcohol contains some good and some evil, but the evil is greater than the good. which wibbs confirms you theory that it's good for you to drink a glass or two a day.

Suret: Al Bakara - (The Cow - 2:219)
"They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider-"

Forbidden:

Suret: Al Maaidah (the City - 5:90)
"Believers, wine, gambling, [animals sacrificed at] shrines and [food distributed by] raffling through arrows are all unclean, satanic deeds, therefore refrain from them, so that you may be successful [in the test of this life]."

In these verses, it is clearly stated that the 'wine' served in paradise shall not cause loss of senses or consciousness and thus, shall be absolutely clear of those effects:

Suret: Muhammad (47:15)
"The parable of Paradise, which the God-fearing are promised: In it are rivers of incorruptible water, rivers of milk of which the taste never deteriorates, rivers of wine of joyous taste for the drinkers, and rivers of clear and pure honey. In it shall they be bestowed all kinds of fruits and [complete] forgiveness from their Lord. Are these like him, who is to dwell forever in fire and shall be given boiling water, which shall cut-up their bowels?"

Suret: Al Saaffaat (37: 43 -- 47)
"They shall be] in blissful gardens; on esteemed thrones, facing each other; glasses of a pure drink shall be served to them, [a drink] pure white, an exquisite taste for those who would drink; In it shall neither be headiness nor shall they lose their senses due to it."


As in regards to why aren't cigarettes and hubbly-bubbly and gatt banned is.

since the Quraan oesnt refernce these items the Scholars agreed that while the Quraan forbids anything that harms the body or mind they cannot Issue a law to forbid it so it left for the actual person to either keep up smoking or stop.

larryone wrote:

If it's a sin to drink alcohol, does that mean that Jesus committed sin when he drank wine?

No, the law came after Christ, Prophets never sin. they are protected from sin from GOD, otheriwse they would'nt be a good role models for us to follow

larryone

So drinking alcohol wasnt initially a sin, but it became a sin when the law was introduced by a more recent prophet???!!!
Do you define sin as being offense to God? Was drinking alcohol not offensive to God until the time of Muhammad?
Sorry If my questions read like accusations, I'm just trying to make sense of this...