Why alcohol is forbidden?

Suff

larryone wrote:

So drinking alcohol wasnt initially a sin, but it became a sin when the law was introduced by a more recent prophet???!!!
Do you define sin as being offense to God? Was drinking alcohol not offensive to God until the time of Muhammad?
Sorry If my questions read like accusations, I'm just trying to make sense of this...

dont't worry

I would say "Yes" to the best of my knowledge,
I'm not sure if other Prophets consumed wine before??
The Law of forbidding Alcohol was introduced in Muhammad's (PBUH) time.

It's not offensive to GOD to drink alcohol, it's for us as it dameges our body (Liver, Stomach, kidneys and Sexual abilities) and reduces/slow the power/senses of the brain. we lose control over our actions to put it simply.

larryone

It does long term damage if abused, but the ill-effects are negligable if there is moderation. Loss of control is temporary. It depends on the person and how they handle it. I can understand how abuse of alcohol can destructive, and then could be considered as sin. So then is the only solution to forbid everyone to consume it?

So can the definition of what is sinful change over time? If sins are defined relative to the time of their definition, then can the definitions not change again one and a half millenia after? And if the answer to that is "yes, but this requires a Prophet to happen" then would we have to go outside the bounds of Islam to do this?

If offense to God is not how you define sin, then how???

hawkmoon269

In some parts of Asia, some Muslims do drink - they avoid strong liquor and spirits but do drink beer and/or wine.

The % of Christian denominations with a blanket prohibition on alcohol is very small.

Let's not forget that wine was drunk at the Last Supper.

larryone

Tell that to some of the hard liner, transubstantiation pushing Christians, and they will scream at you that they drank the blood of Christ at the last supper, and not wine.

hawkmoon269

larryone wrote:

Tell that to some of the hard liner, transubstantiation pushing Christians, and they will scream at you that they drank the blood of Christ at the last supper, and not wine.

Well that is principally a Catholic belief and not generally shared by non-Catholic Christians.

Somewhat ironically, such blanket prohibitions on alcohol consumption as do exist within the wider Christian body of believers tend to be found in some of the more fundamentalist leaning Protestant churches, whereas Catholicism seems to be relatively tolerant of alcohol consumption within reason - although, as I said, as a proportion of the total body of Christian believers, and even within Protestant churches, the element that subscribes to blanket prohibitions on alcohol as a part of their belief system is relatively small.

Suff

Guys...there is no point to go back to that period in time.

There were no Laws that forbidds it, however I really doubt that Christ or any other prophet ever abused it or even got drunk!

as regards to the Last Supper, in Islam we beleive it was sent down from GOD, it would have food/wine from Heaven. so if you take it "faith based" then that wine doesn't make you drunk.

ref :
Suret: Al Saaffaat (37: 43 -- 47)

"They shall be in blissful gardens; on esteemed thrones, facing each other; glasses of a pure drink shall be served to them, [a drink] pure white, an exquisite taste for those who would drink; In it shall neither be headiness nor shall they lose their senses due to it."


the ref for Christ's last supper in the Quraan (Suret: The Table 110-115)

"[5:110]When Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said: This is nothing but clear enchantment.

[5:111] And when I revealed to the disciples, saying, Believe in Me and My messenger, they said: We believe and bear witness that we submit (ourselves).

[5:112] When the disciples said: O Isa son of Marium! will your Lord consent to send down to us food from heaven? He said: Be careful of (your duty to) Allah if you are believers.

[5:113] They said: We desire that we should eat of it and that our hearts should be at rest, and that we may know that you have indeed spoken the truth to us and that we may be of the witnesses to it.

[5:114] Isa the son of Marium said: O Allah, our Lord! send i down to us food from heaven which should be to us an ever-recurring happiness, to the first of us and to the last of us, and a sign from Thee, and grant us means of subsistence, and Thou art the best of the Providers.

[5:115] Allah said: Surely I will send it down to you, but whoever shall disbelieve afterwards from among you, surely I will chastise him with a chastisement with which I will not chastise, anyone among the nations."

larryone

Thank you for the references Suff.
Can anyone address just my final question in post #33?

Suff

larryone wrote:

If offense to God is not how you define sin, then how???

Sin is required in our life, no one is perfect but GOD, thats how we are made to be.

Sin is required in order to ask for forgivness. otherwise we are perfect being who never Sin, then why need all those prophets and book to guide us in life?

God doesnt get offended from any Sin, the Greatest Offense to God is to deny his existance.

Sin is an offence to us, we are accountable for our actions,
if we make a mistake or a sin no one to blame but the person who did it.


I'll post some ref's from the Quraan and Hadeeth soon.

Wibbs

Suff wrote:

Sin is required in our life, no one is perfect but GOD, thats how we are made to be.

So we are made to sin by God? Then we are punished by him?

Sin is required in order to ask for forgivness. otherwise we are perfect being who never Sin, then why need all those prophets and book to guide us in life?

It would be a better universe though. It still doesn't explain why any God would create us to sin and then punish us for it.(I've had this debate with Christian types before)

Sin is an offence to us, we are accountable for our actions,
if we make a mistake or a sin no one to blame but the person who did it.

Again If God made us that way, surely He bares some of the responsibilty for that sin? If not from Him, then where does sin come from, if all that is, He created. See my problem?

larryone

Suff wrote:

Sin is an offence to us, we are accountable for our actions,
if we make a mistake or a sin no one to blame but the person who did it.

Do you mean that sin is offense to the self, or do you mean "us" in a collective way?

Earlier you said the Prophets were without sin, but now you're saying only God is without sin. Could you clarify this a bit?

Suff

Wibbs wrote:

So we are made to sin by God? Then we are punished by him?It would be a better universe though. It still doesn't explain why any God would create us to sin and then punish us for it.(I've had this debate with Christian types before)

Again If God made us that way, surely He bares some of the responsibilty for that sin? If not from Him, then where does sin come from, if all that is, He created. See my problem?

yes we are made to Sin by GOD, we have the ability to ask for forgivness and repent just as we have it to Sin.

if a sinner doesnt repeant then they will be punished.
GOD doesnt share any responsibility for a sin that we make, he gave us the Mind to decide what to do in our life. you can choose the path you want to take either follow GOD's Law or live without it, it's up to the individual.

Sin is an offense to the self, if you sin you carry the sin.

Regarding to Prophets, they are human, they could Sin just like us but GOD has removed that from them so they can be a better example for people who follow them.
Some of the prophets did sin, one example would be Moses killing the Eypgptian when asked by a man from his tribe (Children of Israel/Jacob)

GOD is perfection.

Diablolical

I think banning alcohol is a joke.I can only speak for myself but some of the best nights out I have had with my friends have involved 10+ pints.I don't understand whats wrong with it,last christmas I went out twice and got destroyed but haven't touched a pint since then.Everybody can have a great time with drink I don't see the problem with it.

CerebralCortex

Wibbs wrote:

That's the point.:D Though some might consider me less of an irishman if just one glass did it.....;) I would say (and many doctors would agree) that if you have one or two glasses of wine a day with a meal, you will live longer and have a healthier heart and arteries. A bottle a day might be an issue though. Everything in moderation. The rest is down to personal faith though.

Not from the alcohol otherwise they wouldn't specify red wine. Besides theres more than one way to keep a heart healthy.
It sounds like the relationship between alcohol and religion is just another stupid reason to get drunk.

Wibbs

Alcohol does have a beneficial effect on it's own. It's just the other chemicals in red wine increases said effect. Anyway, who mentioned anything about getting drunk?

ninja 101

Well now you hardly start drinking with the aim of increasing your sobriety,do you?

metrovelvet

How forbidden is it? Is it a no no the way condoms are for catholics? :rolleyes:

In the UAE any hotel over three stars serves alcholol. Like homosexuality there, its practised its just very hidden.

Can someone elaborate on this?

Ridire_Dubh

May I propose an alternative view regarding wine and life from yet another great book by someone from the Middle East? From the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam:

Dreaming when Dawn's Left Hand was in the Sky
I heard a Voice within the Tavern cry,
"Awake, my Little ones, and fill the Cup
Before Life's Liquor in its Cup be dry."

And, as the Cock crew, those who stood before
The Tavern shouted -- "Open then the Door!
You know how little while we have to stay,
And, once departed, may return no more."

Iram indeed is gone with all its Rose,
And Jamshyd's Sev'n-ring'd Cup where no one knows;
But still the Vine her ancient Ruby yields,
And still a Garden by the Water blows.

And David's Lips are lock't; but in divine
High piping Pehlevi, with "Wine! Wine! Wine!
Red Wine!" -- the Nightingale cries to the Rose
That yellow Cheek of hers to incarnadine.

Come, fill the Cup, and in the Fire of Spring
The Winter Garment of Repentance fling:
The Bird of Time has but a little way
To fly -- and Lo! the Bird is on the Wing.

Suff

metrovelvet wrote:

In the UAE any hotel over three stars serves alcholol. Like homosexuality there, its practised its just very hidden.

Can someone elaborate on this?

Alcohol in the UAE, Qatar and Bahrian is not hidden, have allowed Alcohol to be sold in a number of shops and Hotel bars due to the increasing numbers of westren workers over there. I remember that you need to have an ID card to buy alcohol in those states.

While in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan (just few to mention...) have Off-licences all over the country for christians.
Alcohol is publicly Banned in Kuwait, Saudi. however the goverment do provide it to westren workers who live in seperate communities.

as for homosexuality, I'm sure its in ebery country on this earth.

Hobbes

Suff wrote:

I remember that you need to have an ID card to buy alcohol in those states.

Is that like the ID you get in the bible belt in the US? Friends of mine where in the Mormon areas and couldn't get a drink as they had to have a special ID to prove they were not Mormons.

Suff

I'm not sure, maybe....I think they are given to westren workers only!
I think it's like SuperQuinn, they wont sell you sprits if you look under 25, unless you show them som ID.

but I went to the Irish Village in Dubai, and the pub had lots of westren workers and some Arabic people, they all had drinks.
when i went to buy the next round I was'nt asked for my ID, not that i have one. I was there on holiday.

Wolff

Suff wrote:

Alcohol is publicly Banned in Kuwait, Saudi. however the goverment do provide it to westren workers who live in seperate communities.

eh the saudi government providing westerners with drink ? emm i think not

The Saudis have a strict ban on alcohol - its bootlegged by the westerners living there

Though didnt stop the last king from being an alco though !

Hobbes

Wolff wrote:

eh the saudi government providing westerners with drink ? emm i think not

The Saudis have a strict ban on alcohol - its bootlegged by the westerners living there

Though didnt stop the last king from being an alco though !

Kindly back that up with some facts or you will be taking an extended holiday.

Wolff

Every one knows the saudis reputation for the absolute ban on alcohol in Arabia - talk to anyone who has ever worked there - alcohol is available but only on a bootleg or homebrew or smuggled basis - and certainly not provided by the government - what government - Saudi Arabia is ruled by a family the Sauds who have named the country after themselves and still prosecute people for witchcraft so we are talking about a stoneage mentality here - also while we are on the topic why wasnt the last poster who made these comments asked to back up their information.

The Saudis will galdly put you in prison if you are caught in possession of drink and torture you as well just for the fun of it - just ask the 20 or 30 ex pats who were wrongly imprisoned after al queda started blowing up things in Saudi and the saudis blamed them instead saying they were bootleggers at war with each other.

The reputation of Saudi Princes is well known especially when they come to the west and they have no problem availing themselves of everything that is forbidden in Saudi Arabia under Wahhabi law
here is a random list of links to back up what I say

http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=852&id=873432003

http://www.meib.org/articles/0401_saudd.htm

http://www.britishembassy.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1062157221709

Just for good luck as well

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1160846.stm




Also its fair enough to ask someone to back up what they say in a post but hardly fair to threaten to ban them if they dont

Are you a Saudi by any chance ?

Hobbes

Wolff wrote:

Also its fair enough to ask someone to back up what they say in a post but hardly fair to threaten to ban them if they dont

Are you a Saudi by any chance ?

You have already been banned before, and to date you don't seem to contribute all that well to the forum. Also for your last comment consider this your final warning. as always if you want to complain about warnings use the forum thread/feedback or PM.

Wolff

try to stay on topic hobbes

pH

Said Aburish's book : "House of Saud: Rise, Corruption and Coming Fall of the House of Saud" documents some of King Fayd's excesses, and there's plenty of repetition of the stories on the internet, including the famous 'losing $6million in one night in a casino' story.

There are certainly many anecdotes and stories that seem to give this credence:

And then I picked up the common knowledge that the largest trade was operated by Princes, who had the clout and "Wasta" to get container-loads past Customs officials at the ports, and make sure they weren't searched at the regular roadblocks. Not only that, but the Princes themselves were said to be major customers, by those who occasionally moved in those circles. And it wasn't just my private joke; the late King Fahd was indeed known to be a great Johnny Walker fan.
http://muttawa.blogspot.com/2005/09/booze.html

Hobbes

*sigh* Look what has this to do with the thread?

Wolff can come back in a month.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Clinical Waste wrote:

Why aren't cigarettes and hubbly-bubbly and chewing gatt (or whatever it is ) banned also?

I'd imagine because they're not intoxicants, as far as I'm aware(though I haven't read the Quran & a source is a Muslim I used to work with) that the promlem is with intoxicants ie cannibis alcohol