Newbie MIDI question

ikoonman

I have access to a Yamaha EMX5000 powered mixer and want to experiment doing some multi-channel recording (say 4 tracks for instance).

I suppose the easiest way of going about it is to use the MIDI interface on a pc and use some software available on the the net, but I have a few questions.

For now, my first question - does the mixer have to "support" MIDI interfaces? (For instance, i haven't noticed any MIDI jack on the mixer - or am I looking for the wrong connection type?) I can get a 4 port MIDI to USB for, say, my laptop, but i don't really know how this would be set up with the mixing desk.

Can anyone give me some advice? TIA

Beecher

I think you seem to be getting a little confused about what midi is. Midi devices dont send out an audio signal, so you would never use a mixing desk with them. Instead they send out an instruction to your PC by a midi device (like this) controlling whatever midi compatable software you have selected (like this one) and that software will create the Audio on the PC.

Are you trying to multitrack real instruments or virtual ones?

dalk

I could be completely missing your point here, but MIDI is not used to 'record' audio. MIDI is used to trigger sounds on a midi device (like a synth). Its just a digital signal that carries information like note pitch, lenght, volume etc...

If you want to record onto your laptop via the mixer, you need a soundcard with multiple analog inputs.

ikoonman

dalk wrote:

I could be completely missing your point here, but MIDI is not used to 'record' audio.

You may be correct yes. I've always thought you could record individual channels using MIDI, hence my question. From sample software on the web I thought it's done via MIDI port. But then again I also thought that could do it if you had more than one (soundcard) in a pc.

ikoonman

Beecher wrote:

I think you seem to be getting a little confused about what midi is. Midi devices dont send out an audio signal, so you would never use a mixing desk with them.

Ok thanks. I apologise if my questions sound a bit stupid, I am trying to extend my knowledge about mixers and how to extend it's functionality. If it helps, you can view the mixer here http://www.thomann.de/thoiw6_yamaha_emx_500012_prodinfo.html#fpix. Click on the 360 ZOOM and you'll see that the INSERT I/O is below the input jacks right on the top of the each channel.

Essentially what I am trying to do is to "try" and record a number of channels on, say, my laptop or pc. The channels could be vocal 1, vocal 2, keyboard and guitar. (Altho, if it would help any explanations, we can ignore the keyboard or MIDI for now and just assume that I am trying to record sound.) What would be the way to get to do this?

I thought you could use the I/O jack on each channel to loop through (either) a pc or some intermediate equipment, but I don't know. If you cannot use the I/O jack for this, then I suppose you'd have to "split" each input channel so the you can use one jack to go in the mixer for the intended use and then the 2nd for recording the individual channel.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

dalk

ikoonman wrote:

I've always thought you could record individual channels using MIDI, hence my question. From sample software on the web I thought it's done via MIDI port.

Some General Midi Info.

ikoonman wrote:

Essentially what I am trying to do is to "try" and record a number of channels on, say, my laptop or pc. The channels could be vocal 1, vocal 2, keyboard and guitar. (Altho, if it would help any explanations, we can ignore the keyboard orMIDI for now and just assume that I am trying to record sound.) What would be the way to get to do this?

There a number of ways to do this. But you need to state whether you intend recording all the channels at the same time (ie recording a group of musicians)? Or if you intend to record all the tracks seperately?

Beecher

ikoonman wrote:

Ok thanks. I apologise if my questions sound a bit stupid, I am trying to extend my knowledge about mixers and how to extend it's functionality.

Dont worry about it, sure we all had to start somewhere :v:

ikoonman wrote:

Essentially what I am trying to do is to "try" and record a number of channels on, say, my laptop or pc. The channels could be vocal 1, vocal 2, keyboard and guitar. (Altho, if it would help any explanations, we can ignore the keyboard or MIDI for now and just assume that I am trying to record sound.) What would be the way to get to do this?

I thought you could use the I/O jack on each channel to loop through (either) a pc or some intermediate equipment, but I don't know. If you cannot use the I/O jack for this, then I suppose you'd have to "split" each input channel so the you can use one jack to go in the mixer for the intended use and then the 2nd for recording the individual channel.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Okay,

Well im presuming you dont have a multitrack soundcard (and if its just a standard soundcard you probably dont). A multitrack soundcard can take in multiple sources of audio as seperate tracks. So your vocals, guitars and keyboards can all be recorded at the same time with each signal being plugged into a different input in the soundcard then being processsed as a seperate track in your sequencer/recording program.

Without that you still have options. The mixing desk is going to send out one stream of audio to your soundcard line-in, so whatever passes through it will record as one audio track in your recording program/sequencer. So to achieve the best results in my opinion each instrument should be recorded seperately one by one into your recording software, so each track can be adjusted after. The only exception to this could by the guitars, you could record these together, just pan one to the left and pan one to the right and record into a stereo track in your software.

Midi is fantastic and should really be looked into. Theres so many freeware vsti's (virtual studio instruments) out there that can reproduce many classic keyboards and synths that will sonically kick the a** off many expensive real keyboards.

ikoonman

Beecher wrote:

Well im presuming you dont have a multitrack soundcard (and if its just a standard soundcard you probably dont). A multitrack soundcard can take in multiple sources of audio as seperate tracks. So your vocals, guitars and keyboards can all be recorded at the same time with each signal being plugged into a different input in the soundcard then being processsed as a seperate track in your sequencer/recording program.

Ahaaaaa......! So this is the missing link. Ok, this is great. Yes, this will be what I have to get in order to do some recording. Problem solved, thank you very much.

Beecher wrote:

So to achieve the best results in my opinion each instrument should be recorded seperately one by one into your recording software, so each track can be adjusted after.

I understand, but unfortunately recordings would be during "live" performances so I suppose recording seperately would not be an option.

Beecher wrote:

The only exception to this could by the guitars, you could record these together, just pan one to the left and pan one to the right and record into a stereo track in your software.

So that means that even if I have one sound card in my PC (normal sound card), I could record "two" tracks, each pan'd left and right and recorded on a stereo track - the same with vocals? So (the cheap option) would be to have 2 sound cards, pan vocals,instruments (guitars), and theoretically i can record four channels onto 2 stereo tracks using software?

If you don't mind me asking another question, now that you mention abt pan. I've noticed some keyboards have 2 output jacks (L and R) stereo, where the R can be (L+R), assuming "mono". Why is this? Surely by playing keyboards you'd only need to have one physical output cable from the keyboard via snake into mixer? Why would you want to use both L+R jacks? (assume that the keyboard player is just playing the keys, and not adding any special sound effects etc)

Thanks once again

david

Stereo keyboard jacks are there because most keyboard sounds are in stereo, be it stereo reverb, stereo delay, stereo chorus etc. I dont think the L+R 1/4" jack out is mono either, its probably just a TRS out so you can monitor using headphones in stereo.

Two soundcards? I dont think that this will be an option, most software i've used don't support dual soiundcards, just one with howevermany ins it has. Read up on latency, a consumer 5.1 soundcard geared towards games and dvd's WILL be rubbish for recording. Lots and lots of latency when recording, if you record two tracks one panned left and the other panned right, you'll lose all stereo imaging and to be honest, the results wont be good. Best thing you can do is get a decent audio soundcard with 2ins and 2outs with low recording latency and experement with four or five inputs mixed down to stereo with the yamaha mixer. Mess around with panning and EQ to get a decent live recording with little post-production required. You can always use the live recording as a guide track, and record each instrument seperately into different tracks and eventually delete the original live track when everything else is recorded.

Beecher

ikoonman wrote:

So that means that even if I have one sound card in my PC (normal sound card), I could record "two" tracks, each pan'd left and right and recorded on a stereo track - the same with vocals? So (the cheap option) would be to have 2 sound cards, pan vocals,instruments (guitars), and theoretically i can record four channels onto 2 stereo tracks using software?

N-Track Studio and Cool Edit Pro apparently support dual soundcards, and yes thoeretically you could bounce 4 tracks using panning onto 2 audio signals.

ikoonman

freakonaleashx wrote:

Stereo keyboard jacks are there because most keyboard sounds are in stereo, be it stereo reverb, stereo delay, stereo chorus etc. I dont think the L+R 1/4" jack out is mono either, its probably just a TRS out so you can monitor using headphones in stereo.

Sorry if my definition was a bit crude. But it's certainly not a headphones jack. It's the output L and R, but if you don't want to plug the keyboards into two mixers channels, you use the R which is marked "R (L+R)". Does this clear it up?

I suppose I need to be convinced that by having a L+R plugged into two seperate channels in the mixer, (and from what I saw) each channel pan'd far left and right respectively, that audibly there would be a considerable diffence in sound. Does it make sense then, as freakonaleashx says, to use it as stereo, but with the channels pan'd?

Also, like I've mentioned, sadly I don't think the keyboard player specifically uses the sound affects on the keyboard. This is why it doesn't make sense to me to use stereo in this set up.

Thanks

ikoonman

Beecher wrote:

N-Track Studio and Cool Edit Pro apparently support dual soundcards, and yes thoeretically you could bounce 4 tracks using panning onto 2 audio signals.

Thanks - I have a spare sound card so I'll give it a shot and see if I can manage with the abovementioned apps.

jtsuited

running two soundcards is gonna get awful messy

david

Seconded, do yourself a favour and get one decent soundcard with all the ins you need. And no, you dont plug the keyboard into two seperate mono mic channels and pan them left and right, plug it into one stereo line level channel. Dont plug anything like a keyboard or CD player or anything line level into a mic channel, they have preamps and will make line level signals sound like crap.