TD's double basic salary since 1997

gurramok

From http://home.eircom.net/content/unison/national/7338035?view=Eircomnet

TDs' pay has doubled since Fianna Fail and the Progressive Democrats came to power.

When all pay, which includes that for ministers, office holders, MEPs etc is added up, the total average spend by the taxpayer on each TD is €115,000.

And that is before they claim for generous expenses and other allowances.

The 'minimum wage' for a TD has doubled to almost €92,000 since 1997 when the new long-service allowance is included.

But only a handful earn that. Most enjoy a major salary boost thanks to extra allowances for being ministers, or serving on committees, or special party responsibilities.

The startling increase in political remuneration is revealed in the first comprehensive study of the salaries of all 166 TDs carried out by the Irish Independent.

And there will be more hikes before the next election.

The level of TDs' pay is highlighted as talks on a new national pay agreement begin today.

The Government is telling workers that double digit pay increases are not on the cards. Yet TDs' wages are now linked to principal officers in the civil service, so they, too, will benefit from the outcome of the pay talks.

TDs got more wage hikes than any other public sector workers as a result of two special pay reviews.

The salary details are based entirely upon documents released under the Freedom of Information Act from the Houses of the Oireachtas and figures from the Department of Finance.

The basic rate of pay for a TD in July 1997 was €45,729. Today it is €88,556.

However, these figures are not directly comparable, as long service bonuses were introduced in the meantime and 70pc of all TDs are entitled to benefit from these.

TDs with seven years service in Leinster House are paid €91,382 and those with 10 years service get €94,205.

When the numbers entitled to the long service bonuses are factored in, the average basic pay works out at €92,112 - double the basic rate in 1997. This is before the additional wages are added into the mix.

The figures show that 70 out of the 166 TDs now earn more than €100,000. Just 18 TDs are paid the bottom rate of €88,556 and the remainder benefit from a range of additional payments including: Ministers (€110,488), Junior ministers (€48,215), Oireachtas committee chairs (€17,698), Oireachtas committee vice-chairs (€9,051), Oireachtas committee whips (€5,639).

Office holders, members of the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission and party whips all get additional sums.

The salary increases over the past nine years have come from the Partnership 2000 national wage deal, Programme for Prosperity and Fairness wage deal, Sustaining Progress wage deal, Public Service Benchmarking Body, and the Review Body on Higher Remuneration in the Public Sector.

Hikes

TDs are the only public sector workers to benefit from the pay review process for top civil servants and benchmarking, as well as partnership agreements.

In industrial relations circles this has been described as a 'double whammy'.

No other public sector group was ever allowed to benefit from these two special pay reports, which were separate.

Aside from the basic pay, there have also been substantial hikes in allowances, travel expenses, office grants, pension, gratuity and severance payments.

The pay increases are defended by both Government and opposition parties who point to the long hours of work put in by politicians.

Finance Minister Brian Cowen says they do not set their own pay rates as it is an independent process.

The Minister believes the issue has to be debated in that context, his spokesman said. "The pay increases for parliamentarians, TDs and Ministers have always been independently reviewed," he said.

Fine Gael chief whip Paul Kehoe described the pay as "generous" but said TDs do have to work hard in return at both a local and national level. TDs work from early in the morning until late at night, six or seven days a week, and it is expected that they attend numerous meetings, he said.

What are people's views on this?

Are TD's worth every 100% of that cent, are the doubling of salaries justified due to their 'hard work' wayyyyy above inflation in those 8 or so years?

Did Bertie really earn his €25k pay rise this year?

I certainly think that part of the TD's enormous wage packet should be witheld and given back to the taxpayers!

Nuttzz

my salary has quadrupled since 1997, but dont tell bertie he might think he's underpaying himself

constitutionus

ive said it before elsewhere, the more a TDs paid the further away they are from the average person they're meant to represent and now politicians are living in a world only 2% of the population can relate to.
people keep saying you need to pay people well to get em involved but as far as im conscerned politics is a vocation not a career.
ya wanna make millions work in the private sector where you get sacked if you did half of what some of our ministers did, you wanna serve your country then get paid like the rest of us I.E average industrial wage.
running your country is an HONOR not a business endevor:)

Zebra3

Did a certain politician leave politics a few years ago mouthing off about how he was being underpaid then failed miserably trying to get a better paid job in the real world and then came back to politics? (I'm thinking Des O'Malley here, but I could be wrong).

And apparently Blankcheque Bertie is on as much or more than Blair. Is running a country of four million or so that much more difficult than running a country of seventy odd million? :rolleyes:

And politicans wonder why people are so cynical about them-nothing to do with them lining their own pockets (and their wealthy friends) at our expense.:mad:

geraghd

Zebra3 wrote:

Did a certain politician leave politics a few years ago mouthing off about how he was being underpaid then failed miserably trying to get a better paid job in the real world and then came back to politics? (I'm thinking Des O'Malley here, but I could be wrong).

And apparently Blankcheque Bertie is on as much or more than Blair. Is running a country of four million or so that much more difficult than running a country of seventy odd million? :rolleyes:

And politicans wonder why people are so cynical about them-nothing to do with them lining their own pockets (and their wealthy friends) at our expense.:mad:

If it was Des O Malley, he didnt do too badly with a tax free salary of 120K as a Bank Director (European Bank?). Which equated roughly to a gross salary of 200K.

dúnadoirse

Still,nice money if you could get it.What exactly do politicians do?What does their daily routine entail?What would you need to know to be a TD?

Snake-

d&#250 wrote: »

Still,nice money if you could get it.What exactly do politicians do?What does their daily routine entail?What would you need to know to be a TD?

You need to be some way linked(through family) to 1916 rising...:rolleyes:

The_Minister

d&#250 wrote: »

Still,nice money if you could get it.What exactly do politicians do?What does their daily routine entail?What would you need to know to be a TD?

It is one of Irelands most thankless jobs. You are hounded 24/7, ambushed by media, insulted, up of renewal every four years without redundancy pay, and if you become a minister, blamed for the actions of civil servents

dahamsta

Firespinner wrote:

It is one of Irelands most thankless jobs. You are hounded 24/7, ambushed by media, insulted, up of renewal every four years without redundancy pay, and if you become a minister, blamed for the actions of civil servents

These would be the civil servants they're responsible for, yes?

adam

ronbyrne2005

if you pay peanuts you get monkeys,but we pay gold and get gob****es. i dont mind high levels of pay to attract the best into politics but irish politics is less about ability than it is how well regarded you are within a party ,what will you do for the locals,who you know etc.
a lot of td's have little or no higher education or high level managerial/descision making roles in private sector,and it shows.
what annoys me are the politicans with other careers and continue these careers while in politics,why would they enter politics when they have a well paying career? maybe because politics =power and influence etc,you should be commiting yourself full time to politics and not lining your own pockets at tax payers expense.

The_Minister

Ken Shabby wrote:

These would be the civil servants they're responsible for, yes?

adam

You'd think so but no. One famous minister (forget which) described how civil servents saw ministers as "shipps passing by night". Ministers came and went and nothing was ever changed too much because the next minister would want something different.

dahamsta

Then they should sack them. Oh wait...

Now there's something that should be knocked on the head; should have been knocked on the head decades ago. Jobs for life my hole.

adam

Akrasia

Zebra3 wrote:

And apparently Blankcheque Bertie is on as much or more than Blair. Is running a country of four million or so that much more difficult than running a country of seventy odd million? :rolleyes:

And politicans wonder why people are so cynical about them-nothing to do with them lining their own pockets (and their wealthy friends) at our expense.:mad:

not to mention the fact that Blair has to actually answer questions in his parliament instead of just reading off a script once every few weeks with no right of reply for the opposition (not that there are ever any of them in the dail during taoiseachs questions)

The_Minister

Ken Shabby wrote:

Then they should sack them. Oh wait...

Now there's something that should be knocked on the head; should have been knocked on the head decades ago. Jobs for life my hole.

adam

Damn unions. I know someone in the health service. Know how it changed organisations this year? They had to keep all the old managers and add new ones to cover for them.

dahamsta

Firespinner wrote:

Damn unions.

I didn't say anything about the unions. I think this recent clamour for disbandment of the unions is one of the most ignorant (I mean that in both senses of the word; I think these people are genuinely stupid, not just ill-informed) notions of all time, particularly when I hear it coming from someone in regular employment. It's masochism of the highest order; if the unions didn't exist, they would be unmercifully reamed by employers before the decade was out.

adam

The_Minister

Ken Shabby wrote:

I didn't say anything about the unions. I think this recent clamour for disbandment of the unions is one of the most ignorant (I mean that in both senses of the word; I think these people are genuinely stupid, not just ill-informed) notions of all time, particularly when I hear it coming from someone in regular employment. It's masochism of the highest order; if the unions didn't exist, they would be unmercifully reamed by employers before the decade was out.

adam

I not complaining about their existance im complaining about how they perpetuate incompetance in the public service and prolong the employment of idiots.
Nice use of stupid by the way so tolerant:D

ps why adam

dahamsta

Firespinner wrote:

I not complaining about their existance im complaining about how they perpetuate incompetance in the public service and prolong the employment of idiots.

I don't know the history of "jobs for life", but I very much doubt it was entirely down to the unions. Either way, it has to go; it's a ridiculous concept. If you're doing a bad job, you should be fired, fullstop.

Nice use of stupid by the way so tolerant

What's to be tolerant about? It's stupid, therefore the people that believe it are stupid. Seems perfectly logical to me.

ps why adam

Because that's my name.

adam

The_Minister

Ken Shabby wrote:

I don't know the history of "jobs for life", but I very much doubt it was entirely down to the unions. Either way, it has to go; it's a ridiculous concept. If you're doing a bad job, you should be fired, fullstop.

It was the unions, and they still enforce it. I agree it has to go

Ken Shabby wrote:

What's to be tolerant about? It's stupid, therefore the people that believe it are stupid. Seems perfectly logical to me.

Well it isn't. There is a large arguement to say that society has moved on and unions are no longer needed. While, i don't agree with this there is enough reasons for belief that i would not call anyone of this belief stupid

Ken Shabby wrote:

Because that's my name.

When I saw ken I assumed that was your name.

dahamsta

Firespinner wrote:

It was the unions, and they still enforce it. I agree it has to go

Only the unions? Who wrote the legislation? Who voted it in?

Well it isn't. There is a large arguement to say that society has moved on and unions are no longer needed. While, i don't agree with this there is enough reasons for belief that i would not call anyone of this belief stupid

Sorry, but the argument is plainly myopic to anyone with an ounce of sense. If the unions went, employers would pounce, and anyone that doesn't believe that is, in a word, stupid. Only a moron or someone with a vested interest really believes that Ireland would be better off in the medium to long term without unions.

When I saw ken I assumed that was your name.

Ken Shabby is a Monty Python character. It's a long story...

adam

The_Minister

Ken Shabby wrote:

Only the unions? Who wrote the legislation? Who voted it in?

Correct but it is the unions who got the government by the balls and put the squeeze on.

Ken Shabby wrote:

Sorry, but the argument is plainly myopic to anyone with an ounce of sense. If the unions went, employers would pounce, and anyone that doesn't believe that is, in a word, stupid. Only a moron or someone with a vested interest really believes that Ireland would be better off in the medium to long term without unions.

No they wouldn't as that would cause immediate restarting of the unions.
Please stop using words such as moron just because some people think differently. There is a genuine argument to say that workers issues are sufficiently advanced to merit the dissolution of unions, and that workers rights as a concept are sufficiently ingrained in the national phyce to avoid such abuses.

dahamsta

Firespinner wrote:

Please stop using words such as moron just because some people think differently.

This isn't a difference of opinion, I genuinely believe that these people are stupid.

There is a genuine argument to say that workers issues are sufficiently advanced to merit the dissolution of unions, and that workers rights as a concept are sufficiently ingrained in the national phyce to avoid such abuses.

I can only hope you're not making that argument, for the aforementioned reasons. Issues like this are not and will never be static, as the creation of the unions has proven. It's simply not a credible argument.

adam

The_Minister

Ken Shabby wrote:

This isn't a difference of opinion, I genuinely believe that these people are stupid.

I can only hope you're not making that argument, for the aforementioned reasons. Issues like this are not and will never be static, as the creation of the unions has proven. It's simply not a credible argument.

adam

It is a valid arguement if not one i suscribe to. People have a right to hold it without being insulted. Currently the main purpose of unions is to cement inefficiencies in the public service. The points in my previous posts were valid.

dahamsta

Firespinner wrote:

Currently the main purpose of unions is to cement inefficiencies in the public service.

I honestly can't respond to a statement like that. It's ridiculous.

The_Minister

Ken Shabby wrote:

I honestly can't respond to a statement like that. It's ridiculous.

Think of An Post and the rail drivers.

dahamsta

Firespinner wrote:

Think of An Post and the rail drivers.

Think of the thousands - or is it tens of thousands - of other organisations that unions represent.

Just because it isn't in the Star or the "Independent"...

constitutionus

Ken Shabby wrote:

Think of the thousands - or is it tens of thousands - of other organisations that unions represent.
.

agreed. i have my job in the financial sector because im unionised. the rest of the lads that weren't were sacked , sorry "downsized". i agree about the public sector though and they are trying to get around that by bribing new employees i.e offering em higher wages than usual in return of losing tenure. mate of mines girlfriend was in the civil service and was bemoaning the fact the newbies were earning more money and just couldnt get over the fact we thought she was better off because she couldnt be sacked (idiot left the job anyway.some people just dont know how good they have it :rolleyes: ,suffice to say life in the private sector is a real eyeopener to her:) )

from what ive seen in my job if unions disolved tomorrow within one generation it'd be 1913 all over again. why go through the grief when we've got functioning mechanisms in place now

The_Minister

Ken Shabby wrote:

Think of the thousands - or is it tens of thousands - of other organisations that unions represent.

Just because it isn't in the Star or the "Independent"...

I read the Irish Times.

The_Minister

constitutionus wrote:

agreed. i have my job in the financial sector because im unionised. the rest of the lads that weren't were sacked , sorry "downsized". i agree about the public sector though and they are trying to get around that by bribing new employees i.e offering em higher wages than usual in return of losing tenure. mate of mines girlfriend was in the civil service and was bemoaning the fact the newbies were earning more money and just couldnt get over the fact we thought she was better off because she couldnt be sacked (idiot left the job anyway.some people just dont know how good they have it :rolleyes: ,suffice to say life in the private sector is a real eyeopener to her:) )

from what ive seen in my job if unions disolved tomorrow within one generation it'd be 1913 all over again. why go through the grief when we've got functioning mechanisms in place now

I just think that the mentality has changed enough that the old abuses could not be resurracted. Even if they were then the unions would be reformed. I just feel that unions do more damage to the public interest then good as most groups of workers could negotiate on their own.

Imagine if Labour gets in and they have to negotiate about pay. I'd like to see them demand anything of the unions:D


PS. Thanks for not having to say moron or idiot like some muppets i know....

constitutionus

Firespinner wrote:

I just think that the mentality has changed enough that the old abuses could not be resurracted. Even if they were then the unions would be reformed. I just feel that unions do more damage to the public interest then good as most groups of workers could negotiate on their own.

i wouldnt count on it. its been so long since most people have had to negotiate wage increases themselves i honestly believe they dont have the skills anymore. a lot of companies rely on peoples ignorance of their rights to get free labour out of em, my own included. i thought i was being a good employee but truth is they didnt give a damn about the stuff i did pro bono and laughed all the way to the bank, soon wised up though:D

my big conscern is the change in corporate mentality out there. when i first started working the wages were crap and the company (different one to the one im in now:) ) was forever on the edge of collapse (hey it was 92) so much so some times i DIDNT get paid, only getting it later in the month because if i forced the issue the company would go bust. but i didnt mind because i had a job and there was a GENUINE feeling of comraderie. we were all in it together and you had a sense that if you looked after them the company would look after you which they did.
when i started in my present company it was the same, so much so we used to ALL head out every friday with the directors for a pint after work. NOW it got like a fecking phirrana pool out there. the company's all about maximising money now and the only time anyone see's anyone else is the christmas do (which ive avoided for the last 3 years,its just full of gordon gecko types now since the original founders went part time or retired:( )

i know thats the celtic tiger and i DONT want things to be as bad as it was back in the '90s, but weve lost something vital in our workplace that i dont think we'll ever get back which is why i wont shed a tear when i finnish with my company next year

firespinner wrote:

PS. Thanks for not having to say moron or idiot like some muppets i know....

hey man , free exhange of ideas is whats this is all about. people should ALWAYS be open to new concepts,particularly the ones they dont like

MontgomeryClift

Are you people actually surprised that when people set their own wages those wages can double in under nine years?