Where do you stand on the Muslim cartoon issue?

Goodshape

Personally I'm standing firm in the "couldn't give a crap" camp with regards these cartoons. I'm not about to start spouting off about some idiolised notion of freedom of speech, but I couldn't care less what some paper prints either. I have just as much of a right not to read it. Problem solved imho.

It's the fact that people are now being killed that I have a problem with. And things like a "Support Denmark" and "West Is Best" (..are you serious with that by the way?) banners do nothing AT ALL to help the situation.

For whatever misguided reason you've got some seriously pissed off people out there. I don't see what rubbing it in their faces and shouting HA HA HA is going to do to calm them down.


As an aside, I heard on the news this evening that an Iranian newspaper is holding a compitition to find the best cartoon send-up of the holocost. Had to laugh at that.

Can you imagine the stupidity of a war breaking out on account of a ****ing cartoon!?

clearz

samb wrote:

With the ''God bless America'' under your posts are you trying to be funny.


I think we should defend our right to take the piss out of anybody; Jesus, Pope, Mohammed or President are great targets for fun. However I think we must remember that it is only small groups of muslims over-reacting just like a small group of puritans objected here to those paddypowers ads (last supper). These countries are run by and populated mainly by religioius extremists just like Ireland was in the past (remember Catch 22 was banned and Casablanca edited).
We should not label muslims anything as clearz may be doing. We have come out of the dark ages so we must help them do so. Anti muslim sentiment will only breed more extremism. Cultures do change, are we helping the moderate Muslims cause?

Im sorry but I dont have to label them anything. They are doing a pretty good job themselves.

samb

clearz wrote:

Im sorry but I dont have to label them anything. They are doing a pretty good job themselves.

Who, Muslims? Most of them are not rioting or anything, so if we must generalise we must conclude that most muslims rightly do not repond violently when insulted.
Do you think your retoric is helping moderate muslims or is it not feeding into the hands of extremists. If you say you are the enemy then you are.

Capt'n Midnight

Denmark is a democracy with laws. They have freedom of speech.

But they also have laws on slander and lible etc. So this problem should have been taken to court by those who felt agreeved by it. Perhaps they could have sued for PTSD.

I'm wondering if the rioters have seen the cartoons. If they have then they are obviously fit to publish, if not then why are they rioting, who incited them ? The people who are the cause of this are not those who published the pictures, but those who resourted to violence before working within the framework of the law.

But it's like yer man from Procter and Gamble said during the fuss over the "dancing devil" logo of their products. "I wouldn't care if all the real christians boycotted our products, there aren't enough to affect sales." If all the Muslims in the middle east vowed to nevermore buy Danish newspapers or magazines...

This has set relations back. It's Salman Rushdie all over again. Actually the fatwa against him is still in effect so the word again is superfluous.

philologos

Demeant0r wrote:

They don't want us to see their religion as violent, yet they have no problem burning down a whole Danish immigration building, this smacks hard of hyprocrisy... :rolleyes:

You've just fallen into one big trap as many do.. Not all muslims are violent, it's just a very small minority who are. I think as the media show more images of Islamic extremists there will be a perception that the entire islamic world is violent. Thats how stereotypes are made.

Clinical Waste

gurramok wrote:

....
We live in a democratic society with free expression speech, we don't live in a repressive one

Whatever your opinion on this matter, only an fool would believe this staement.

Hobbes

Jakkass wrote:

You've just fallen into one big trap as many do.. Not all muslims are violent, it's just a very small minority who are. I think as the media show more images of Islamic extremists there will be a perception that the entire islamic world is violent. Thats how stereotypes are made.

Exactly. Second largest religon in the world. If the majority were rioting you would know about it.

Freddie59

Hobbes wrote:

If you had true freedom of speech on boards.ie you wouldn't be banned from the Islam forum at this time.

Ah my dear friend Hobbes. Getting to you is it? I was banned from these for articulating the sames views as here (as many others have) but the moderator involved chose to ban me as he didn't agree with my perspective.

Attack the post Mr Hobbes......not the poster. I still have freedom of speech - amazingly it's the Islamic forum which banned me. Now doesn't that say it all!! I rest my case. Checkmate.;)

Freddie59

Manic Moran wrote:

An Iranian newspaper has announced a competition for the best cartoon about the holocaust.

Classic Mulim strategy. Their 'prophet is insulted' and and they attack Israel. Were the cartoons not printed in a Danish newspaper?

Freddie59

samb wrote:

With the ''God bless America'' under your posts are you trying to be funny

No actually - I'm not. I'm giving support and recognition to a country which has paid for our Western freedom in millions of lives. Were it not for them this forum would not exist. Hitler (or maybe some of his middle eastern relations) would now be running the show.

Yes, God Bless America. Long may they reign and protect us from the midlle ages, middle east mindset.

Freddie59

Clinical Waste wrote:

Whatever your opinion on this matter, only an fool would believe this staement.

Only if he was from a tyrannical country, ruled by a despot, and brainwashed from the time he could read.

Wibbs

^^^^^ I'm tempted, I really am.....

SeanW

Hobbes wrote:

No we don't have free speech. We have restricted speech. Make a picture of the pope having sex with a dog and see how long you last posting it here or see if you can get it printed in a paper.

If you had true freedom of speech on boards.ie you wouldn't be banned from the Islam forum at this time.

No, we have free speech. If you drew a cartoon of the Pope having sex with a dog, you could post it here on boards.ie but you'd get banned. Boards.ie would have that right not to carry your cartoon.

All publishers have free speech, and by extension that includes the right to self/member censor. IF they choose not to do so, and to carry something offensive, as the Danish paper did, that is not considered a legal issue as it would be in some Mid. Eastern countries. So the Denmark, Norway, Austria and all the other countries targeted in the recent wave of madness have no case to answer.

This reminds me of a line from one of my favourite movies. "Hey, you can't take away people's right to be assholes." Censorship laws such as those in France and Germany relating to hate speech and anti-semitism don't work - laws don't stop people from hating each other.

I hope the Danes stand tall and do not back down.

ambro25

Can I ask people perusing this thread 3 simple questions:

(i) why such a furore now for something that dates back to September 2005? (i.e. whose agenda?)

(ii) doesn't the Coran advocates tolerance in equal measures to faith? (e.g. associating here Muslim 'tolerance' to 'freedom of speech', so to speak)

(iii) are people calling BLaden to avenge the affront not themselves guilty of idolatry (the very concept upon which the ban of representations of the prophet Mohammet is based)?

Where I stand on the cartoon issue? Self-explanatory from the above: a whole bunch of much-a-do over nothing ... made all the worst since the first deaths-while-protesting yesterday. And I hold Muslim religious leaders (not all of them, but certainly those of the extreme/obscurantist variety, with an agenda) responsible for those deaths, certainly not Denmark or the paper in question :mad:

All this for 12 drawings? So what are they waiting for, to riot in response to the 7 years Hamza got in the UK?

My problem in relation to this whole issue is not the extremists' reaction (expected), but the complacency with which moderate Muslims (and/or relevant ME governments) appear to treat the violation of sovereign land (a Danish embassy in Iran or elsewhere is on Danish -sovereign- soil), calls for unmitigated/unsegregated retaliation on 'the West', unwarranted attacks on Norwegian interest (FFS! bigoted and ignorant!), etc. How can they expect 'the West' not to consider them all the same basket-cases?

As an aside - may I precise that my position in respect of a hypothetical cartoon involving the Pope and a goat, or the Holocaust, and suitable over-reaction by the appropriately/expectedly aggrieved parties, would be exactly the same.

The one thing Marx got right: "... opium for the masses...". Indeed.

Wibbs

ambro25 wrote:

)

(ii) doesn't the Coran advocates tolerance in equal measures to faith? (e.g. associating here Muslim 'tolerance' to 'freedom of speech', so to speak)

Not really. No religion does, by their nature, but Islam while saying in one place that there's "no compulsion in faith", goes out if it's way in other places suggesting that there is, in this world and the next(the suggestion that a person who leaves Islam is to be executed give the game away).

The one thing Marx got right: "... opium for the masses...". Indeed.

Very true, though at the moment it seems it's cocaine for the masses.

Hobbes

SeanW wrote:

No, we have free speech. If you drew a cartoon of the Pope having sex with a dog, you could post it here on boards.ie but you'd get banned. Boards.ie would have that right not to carry your cartoon.

Thats not free speech then. What do you think would happen if boards.ie left the cartoon there? Do you think they would have free speech to do so?

(i) why such a furore now for something that dates back to September 2005? (i.e. whose agenda?)

As mentioned numerous times, the argument has been on going since September and was inflamed more then after the press learning that it was offensive went and printed it in more papers. Add to that clerics visiting the middle east brought copies of the cartoons with them as well as samples they sent by people in Denmark to show the level of racism in Denmark.

Clinical Waste

Freddie59 wrote:

Only if he was from a tyrannical country, ruled by a despot, and brainwashed from the time he could read.

That could be nearly any country, (including this one.)
Only the level of tyranny and brainwashing varies.

county

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/gallery/2005/03/23/The-Pope.jpg

lets hope all catholics on boards dont go crazy and demonstrate out side my house baying for my blood:rolleyes:

ambro25

Hobbes wrote:

As mentioned numerous times, the argument has been on going since September and was inflamed more then after the press learning that it was offensive went and printed it in more papers.

You may call it inflammation, I call it information. Small nuance, but note that I am not playing on words here - it all started in Denmark 6 months ago or so, and who in Europe or the world at large would have heard of until a few days ago if it wasn't for...

Hobbes wrote:

Add to that clerics visiting the middle east brought copies of the cartoons with them as well as samples they sent by people in Denmark to show the level of racism in Denmark.

This simply corroborates the fact that said 'clerics' have been doing the rounds with nothing more of an agenda than stirring sh1t.

I am certainly not stating that Muslims have no right to be incensed, or to burn Danish flags in Teheran or Lahore. I am stating, certainly, that the reaction has been massively over-proportioned at the hands of those clerics. And I am also stating that they have no such right in 'Western countries' (read: non-Islamic), where they should avail of any appropriate legal mechanism to right what wrong they have perceived. Be it a peaceful demonstration (with placards revendicating outrage, but not calling for murder/assassination/beheading/stoning/whatever and certainly not on the 'West' at large), a suit or whatever...

magick

I hope the Danes stand tall and do not back down

completely agree

Wibbs

ambro25 wrote:

(i) why such a furore now for something that dates back to September 2005? (i.e. whose agenda?)

Well IIRC the original catalyst for this was someone who wanted illustrators for a childrens book on Islam, as a way to show non muslims kids in schools all about the faith(ironic or wha?). There are similar childrens books by the same guy about the other faiths.* When he couldn't get anyone to do it out of apparent fear of reprisals, the newspaper got wind of this and asked for submissions from artists for images of Mohammed. While it is not allowed for Muslims to do represent the prophet in art, if you look at some of them they are not particularly insulting or designed to be so. The one of the prophet standing with the sun behind him in the desert for a start. If it was just those "innocent" ones I don't think we'd be seeing the sh1tstorm we're seeing now. The odd tut tut maybe, but this? I doubt it. The ignorance to the possible reactions of muslims by the newspaper(and the Danish gov.) and the frenzy of outrage by those on both sides hasn't helped.

*This is the quickest reference I could google, without finding a page with the cartoons in question. It could be a dodgy link so if a mod finds it so, delete.
http://www.signandsight.com/features/588.html

Boggle

Originally Posted by Hobbes
No we don't have free speech. We have restricted speech. Make a picture of the pope having sex with a dog and see how long you last posting it here or see if you can get it printed in a paper.

Eh, you can't say that!... Oh wait you can. Think its called free speech.

I reckon that I, as an agnostic, I should be able to comment freely about what I see in other religions without worrying about being attacked. If you wish to disagree fine, but attacks - no. The fact of the matter is that if you are blown up in the morning by a suicide bomber, the bomber will more than likely be doing it in the name of the muslim religion. As long as this is so I will always associate mulim faith with bombings... That is why many cartoonists, when asked to draw a picture related to the Muslim faith, associated it with terrorism. Is it not the papers job to comment on these matters?

In summary, up denmark!!

Clinical Waste

county wrote:

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/gallery/2005/03/23/The-Pope.jpg

lets hope all catholics on boards dont go crazy and demonstrate out side my house baying for my blood:rolleyes:

:eek: BLASPHEMOR !!!!

Stone him!

Catsmokinpot

Freddie59 wrote:

No actually - I'm not. I'm giving support and recognition to a country which has paid for our Western freedom in millions of lives. Were it not for them this forum would not exist. Hitler (or maybe some of his middle eastern relations) would now be running the show.

Yes, God Bless America. Long may they reign and protect us from the midlle ages, middle east mindset.

millions of lives? where are you getting these figures?????? 405,399 is the figure for world war 2, england lost 300,000. our russian friends lost 10 million during world war 2 defending our freedom... so russia lost more than 10 times more in 1 war than america lost in all its wars defending our freedom dont see you putting a russian flag up there?

and we should thank god for all those who died in afghanistan "searching for OSAMA"? (danger mouse found more than the american army could) and those who died in iraq because of those big bad WMD that they never found...... that was a war that america started..... not iraq, iraq had nothing to do with the 11th september attacks....

i could say something about you but it would insult both dogs and monkeys, your god bless america isnt helping anyone. and why would god bless america? need we forget that america has armed isreal, iraq, iran, saudi arabia, a host of countries in africa and southamerica. o bless america will you god!! bless their cotton socks:rolleyes:

what the muslim community is doing is wrong but what we did and what your doing is wrong aswell, two wrongs dont make a right, or did your mother not teach you that?

clearz

The mainstream media haven't seem to reporting this probally for fear of the crisis escalating but an Italian Priest has been shot in the back and killed while praying in his chapel in nothern Turky.
The killer was a 16 year old muslim youth who is claiming that he did it to avenge the cartoons.

This will most certainly have implications for Turkeys entry into the EU and I have to say that in respect to most countrys I usuallly say that its the Government thats the problem and not the people but it seems to be the other way round with Turkey.

Also Iran in all its childish wisdom has decided like a primary school kid to publish cartoons of the Holocost. How offending the Jew's in responce to a dainish newspaper offending them is beyond me but anything is possible when it comes to Iran. I just wish we had a better militry in Europe so we could just invade them and get it over with.

rsynnott

Although the original cartoons were tasteless and offensive, this has become a freedom of press issue, and I applaud Denmark for not standing down.

The reaction to the cartoons has been absolutely ridiculous.

RE*AC*TOR

Freddie59 wrote:

No actually - I'm not. I'm giving support and recognition to a country which has paid for our Western freedom in millions of lives. Were it not for them this forum would not exist. Hitler (or maybe some of his middle eastern relations) would now be running the show.

May i suggest you change then to God Bless Russia - they paid for it with far more lives.
It dissapoints me that I'm coming down on the same side of an arguement with someone who has a "God Bless America" sig. But I am. This is a freedom of speech issue.
Yes I agree that there may be a sensitivity issue - and perhaps it would of been better not to publish the cartoons. However, it would be a far better world if we could all get to the point where we respect these opinions through open discourse, not through fear. What we need is for the average Dane to accept that the cartoons are insensitive and not buy the paper/magazine. Something like what Liverpool did after The Sun newspaper and the Hillsborough disaster. You cannot, however, deny the paper the right to print the cartoons. Nor should the government apologise for something outside of its control. However, that goal is probably unnattainable now. A siege mentallity is now in effect.

The Muslim world needs to learn how to voice their protest or outrage in a civilised manner - or at the very least control those elements within it that promote a violent reaction, and respect laws of sovereign countries. Perhaps the majority of Muslims are being calm at this time, but are they making efforts to limit the violence? Are they just standing by and letting the violent elements do as they please? As long as this circle of violence in the name of islam is perpetuated, western opinion will grow increasingly polarized. As many people said, it is not all muslims. Those Muslims who disagree with the violence need to make their voices heard louder. Right now, to use a cliché, the silence is deafening.

zuma

county wrote:

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/gallery/2005/03/23/The-Pope.jpg

lets hope all catholics on boards dont go crazy and demonstrate out side my house baying for my blood:rolleyes:

Thats a seriously funny picture!!!

Now what would happen if the Phropet was satired in such a way???

MiniMetro

"how dare you depict us as violent bombers!! I say jihad , massacre the west"

Kind of proving the old point there Mr.Muslim.

Freddie59

Clinical Waste wrote:

That could be nearly any country, (including this one.)
Only the level of tyranny and brainwashing varies.

Yes but we (all of us including our women) have freedom of movement.........and I don't see the Mosques in Irealnd being attacked. Seriously though - you cannot compare Ireland to what's going on in the middle east.....by any stretch of your imagination.;)