Where do you stand on the Muslim cartoon issue?

Freddie59

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

May i suggest you change then to God Bless Russia - they paid for it with far more lives.

I sincerely apologise. You are right - it was insensitive not to mention them. They paid in full also.

magick

Originally Posted by RE*AC*TOR
May i suggest you change then to God Bless Russia - they paid for it with far more lives.

well i guess u could argue that point, if its ww2 ur talking about.

Remember Russia was run by Stalin at the time , and last i heard he wasnt a fan of free speech ,sweets bunny rabbits generally anything nice.

RE*AC*TOR

magick wrote:

well i guess u could argue that point, if its ww2 ur talking about.

Remember Russia was run by Stalin at the time , and last i heard he wasnt a fan of free speech ,sweets bunny rabbits generally anything nice.

This is way off-topic. But if you know your history, you'll know that the Russian offensive broke the Germany army. Stalin's politics aside - the Russian contribution had far more to with Freddie59's "Western freedom" than America's.

SeanW

Hobbes wrote:

Thats not free speech then. What do you think would happen if boards.ie left the cartoon there? Do you think they would have free speech to do so?

YES they would, there would be no law to prevent boards.ie so from doing if they chose. There may be consequences of that decision though.

Can you imagine if the hypothetical cartoon was carried on boards.ie, do you honestly expect there would be such a brouhaha? Would the Taoiseach be demanded to apologise? Would Britian be declared an "Enemy of Catholocism" "hater of dogs" or whatever? No. Becuase logic and common sense would be applied to the situation and none of this crap would start.

YES there is some censorship - many people avoid anything offensive, and in the case of Islam, self-censorship out of fear for life and limb. Lest one get a fatwa issued against them like ... Salmon Rushdie, these cartoonists ... etc.

The Political Correctness brigade has a lot to answer for too, that we all have to be touchy-feely and inclusive and always nice to everyone, that certain things are off limits for criticism, well, that approach has failed completely becuase it is now painfully obvious, if any more proof were needed, that there are people who are out to destroy our freedom and our way of life, and are exploiting immigration etc to destroy us from within, people like "Dr. Hook" of Finnsbury Park.

As mentioned numerous times, the argument has been on going since September and was inflamed more then after the press learning that it was offensive went and printed it in more papers. Add to that clerics visiting the middle east brought copies of the cartoons with them as well as samples they sent by people in Denmark to show the level of racism in Denmark.

Ah, yes, that's right it's all the racist Danes. Perhaps they were afraid of something? Like what ended up happening? The cartoons themselves were part of an analysis of an environment of fear that Muslims must have been causing in Denmark, and resulting self-censorship. The other papers picked up the cartoons as a freedom of speech issue.

BTW Do you know what is written about Westerners and Jews in Arab media? I don't know much about it but I've heard and seen stuff - really vile lies about Jews, the Star Of David being gravely defiled, etc. Those who criticise Jyllads Posten but stay silent about Arab Media, Iranian president Ahmedinijad's "Israel should be wiped off the map" comments etc, are hypocrites of the highest order.

growler

I find it very funny how the "Go USA" brigade seem to think themselves justified in tarring all followers of Islam with the same brush, if they were all explosive wearing, Al Qaida supporting, fatwah following loons then we'd all know about it, a tiny percentage follow extremist doctrines and preachers, usually the ill educated.

Of course the media is going to show the extreme reactions in the ME, there's not much point showing headline footage of millions worldwidegetting on with their daily lives and not burning embassies. Of course many ordinary muslims were probably insulted, much the same way as some catholics were annoyed by Jesus LOL images here, if some extreme fringe catholic group had picked up on that then boards could easily have found itself at the centre of a similar controversy.

Under the auspices of free speech I have no issues with anyone slagging off any religion, if you choose to believe in any theology you can expect others not to believe the same things. Whether or not all beliefs are worthy of respect is a different matter, some beliefs , islamic and others, fly in the face of western secular culture, then I think that in the west the secular nature of our society should be the default view. I'm all for tolerance and integration, but the old maxim, "when in rome" is very relevant to this whole debate. If the danish clerics hadn't willfully exported this furore for the sake of (i presume) highlighting the callous, godless, heathen, direspectful western society they , somewhat ironically, have chosen to live in , then this would all be a storm in a tea cup.

Waving "west is best" banners seems so very childish.

Hobbes

SeanW wrote:

YES they would, there would be no law to prevent boards.ie so from doing if they chose.

News to me. Tell you what how about getting a printed T-Shirt of it and walking around Dublin. Do you think it will be allowed?

Do you honestly expect there would be such a brouhaha? Would the Taoiseach be demanded to apologise?

If he went and looked at it and said "Ah sure lads theres nothing I can do its fine".

Would Britian be declared

What has Britain got anything to do with it?

YES there is some censorship

Some? there is lots of censorship at varying levels.

of fear for life and limb.

Where as in Ireland you would be sued for Libel/slander.

Ah, yes, that's right it's all the racist Danes. Perhaps they were afraid of something?

They get them on a daily basis as far as I have heard. Add that to the papers being allowed to print similar offensive pictures what perception do you think they get?

Irish Muslim group get similar crap. For example from what I heard during the July bombings the press received a fake letterhead letter from the Irish Muslim group saying they agreed with the bombing. The only reason they knew about it is because the press in question rang them up to get a personal comment on it. That was handed over to the Gardai.

The cartoons themselves were part of an analysis of an environment of fear

No the cartoons were offensive. They were told they were offensive. The press could of said "Ok, fair enough sorry for upsetting you" and left it at that. Instead they printed them again in more papers.

Lets put it this way. I create a cartoon of you having sex with children. I'm sure you will find offense with that (unless your into that sort of thing). So I get a paper to print it. You tell them your offended by it. They apologise and then tell me. What do you think you would do if I then went and got it printed in 20 or so more papers. Would you be more or less annoyed? What if then your told to "get over it, ah sure its just freedom of speech". More or less annoyed? What if then trying to sue me for libel that the government says "Ahh get over it". More or less annoyed?

The other papers picked up the cartoons as a freedom of speech issue.

Quit with the freedom of speech crap. The newspaper in question already censored offensive Jesus cartoons before this because they found them offensive.

BTW Do you know what is written about Westerners and Jews in Arab media?
I don't know much about it but I've heard and seen stuff

Yes I am aware of it and there is a group that currently monitor and try to get it resolved. Go to www.adl.org Are you saying that is not ok? But you have no problems with Denmark doing the same?

Or are you saying that what they print is ok as well so the shouldn't be bothered with Denmark?

SeanW

Hobbes wrote:

News to me. Tell you what how about getting a printed T-Shirt of it and walking around Dublin. Do you think it will be allowed?

You're gone way out into left field. There's a big difference between putting something in a newspaper or forum and wearing it on a T-Shirt, for example the Sun has a topless woman on Page 3 every day - would that be allowed on a T-Shirt walking around Dublin? Yes? No? But it IS allowed in a newspaper, if you don't like it don't buy the paper.

What has Britain got anything to do with it?

What has Norway got to do with the Danish cartoon mess? The Norwgians seem to have been pulled into this in some way. Also, Jews seem to be getting more than their usual bashing ... I'm sorry did the Israeli government draw this cartoon?

Reason has been abandoned as everything evil, Jewish, Western, Scandinavian etc has been pulled down into an "Infidel Dane" phobia spreading throughout the Islamic world. So my comparison to Britian being to blame for a hypothetically offensive boards.ie post holds water.

No the cartoons were offensive.

So f***ing what? The papers still have the right to publish them. In a secular society with democratic institutions I or anyone else has the right to publish something someone will find offensive.

You have the choice to be an adult and not go crazy burning things and issuing death threats etc.

Lets put it this way. I create a cartoon of you having sex with children. I'm sure you will find offense with that (unless your into that sort of thing). So I get a paper to print it. You tell them your offended by it. They apologise and then tell me. What do you think you would do if I then went and got it printed in 20 or so more papers. Would you be more or less annoyed? What if then your told to "get over it, ah sure its just freedom of speech". More or less annoyed? What if then trying to sue me for libel that the government says "Ahh get over it". More or less annoyed?

I don't know what the hell you're talking about, but I'll tell you one thing right now I WOULDN'T do and that's go around torching embassies or threatening to kill people or bomb the newspaper ... and neither would most Westerners.

Yes I am aware of it and there is a group that currently monitor and try to get it resolved. Go to www.adl.org Are you saying that is not ok? But you have no problems with Denmark doing the same?

Or are you saying that what they print is ok as well so the shouldn't be bothered with Denmark?

I'm saying the Islamists are using a double-standard, it's Ok to condone terrorism and call for Israel to wiped off the map and to print sick, twisted garbage about Jews and Westerners but as soon as someone says Boo about them, all hell breaks loose.

Maybe I'm just not enlightened in PCdom, but it seems to me that calling for a nation to be exterminated and state sponsoring anti-Semetic material to be much worse than a private newspaper publishing a cartoon in a democratic non-Islamic state.

Freddie59

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

This is way off-topic. But if you know your history, you'll know that the Russian offensive broke the Germany army. Stalin's politics aside - the Russian contribution had far more to with Freddie59's "Western freedom" than America's.

In fairness that's a source of contention. America freed the continent (or their part of it) - Russia subdued the other half for over 50 years.

Freddie59

growler wrote:

Waving "west is best" banners seems so very childish.

In your opinion - which you're entitled to because of free speech.......won for you by the West in which you in turn enjoy those same freedoms. Life's a circle - isn't it?

Freddie59

Hobbes wrote:

Lets put it this way. I create a cartoon of you having sex with children. I'm sure you will find offense with that (unless your into that sort of thing). ?

Why oh why this harping on about sex with children? Is this the only example you can come up with?

Hobbes wrote:

Quit with the freedom of speech crap. ?

Isn't it about time you gave it a rest. We have freedom of speech - it's a fact. Live with it. I've already asked - is a version of boards available in Iran? Do people have unfettered Internet access as we do here? Well?

It's great to see a French paper reprinting the cartoons today. We cannot allow our basic freedom of speech to be undermined by 'religious' zealots who should be living in the middle ages.

Manic Moran

Dude, that pope picture was class. I had totally forgotten about Spitting Image. Can you imagine what they'd to do Osama?

Reactor's about nailed it. Russia is the likely reason we're not all speaking German. The US is the likely reason we're not all speaking Russian.

NTM

LoL lads at the God Bless America and God Bless Russia sigs etc

One small point though regarding Russia, they may have lost millions more lives fighting fascism than the Americans and British.
But they werent fighting for our freedom.
They didnt win our freedom.
Unless you call stalinist communist Russia free or the USSR and the iron curtain countries.
They were far from free.
Those millions were defending their motherland but they werent defending what we in the west would describe as freedom.
Soviets were never free.

mike65

Exactly the Soviets were fighting to save themselves which happened to knacker the Nazis. Many non Russians fought under duress.

Mike.

fly_agaric

Freddie59 wrote:

In your opinion

No, it is childish! Like chanting Nah Nah Nah Nah Nah! :rolleyes: which most people give up when they are older than about 5.

Anyway Hobbes, what do you think needs to be done [on *our* part] to restore a bit of calm here?

A public apologia to all muslims on this Earth by all European governments and people delivered by the leader of each one?

A special EU directive on Insulting Islam which must be incorporated into the laws and constitutions of all EU member states?

Islamic Offence punishment reparations - maybe a tax levied on each country in the world where the cartoons have been printed (funds go to the support of the Saudi Royal Family)?

Maybe the government in Denmark could supply every white, non-muslim citizen with a whip, some ashes, and a piece of sackcloth for a punishment procession through the streets of Copenhagen.
Don't forget to chant Allahu Ackbar boys!

Catsmokinpot

Freddie59 wrote:

In fairness that's a source of contention. America freed the continent (or their part of it) - Russia subdued the other half for over 50 years.

america only stepped in when the allied forces were all but crushed.... when it was in their own interests to do so.... not out of some duty or anything of that nature, if they were a truly liberal free thinking freedom fighting part of the world community they would have stepped in straight away!

Freddie59 wrote:

In your opinion - which you're entitled to because of free speech.......won for you by the West in which you in turn enjoy those same freedoms. Life's a circle - isn't it?

Waving "west is best" banners IS very childish. its as childish as "freedom fries" (coz the french didnt agree with the war in iraq), its as childish as and calling names in school, your sinking to the level of extreemist attitudes, and your further antagonising an already enraged community.

Catsmokinpot

Earthman wrote:

LoL lads at the God Bless America and God Bless Russia sigs etc

One small point though regarding Russia, they may have lost millions more lives fighting fascism than the Americans and British.
But they werent fighting for our freedom.
They didnt win our freedom.
Unless you call stalinist communist Russia free or the USSR and the iron curtain countries.
They were far from free.
Those millions were defending their motherland but they werent defending what we in the west would describe as freedom.
Soviets were never free.

dont you detect the hint of sarcasm in my sig or were you actually taking it seriously? my god bless russia sig was to point out how stupid the god bless america sig was:rolleyes:

Freddie59

Catsmokinpot wrote:

america only stepped in when the allied forces were all but crushed.... when it was in their own interests to do so.... not out of some duty or anything of that nature, if they were a truly liberal free thinking freedom fighting part of the world community they would have stepped in straight away!.

And whipped the Nazis, whilst taking care of the Japs along the way. They won your freedom for you. The Russians temporarily liberated people, then subdued them - not quite the same.

Catsmokinpot wrote:

Waving "west is best" banners IS very childish. its as childish as "freedom fries" (coz the french didnt agree with the war in iraq), its as childish as and calling names in school, your sinking to the level of extreemist attitudes, and your further antagonising an already enraged community.

Well I suppose millions of us must be classed as childish then. I'll take the childish West ahead of the extremist, despotic middle Eastern 'governments' anyday.

Freddie59

Earthman wrote:

LoL lads at the God Bless America and God Bless Russia sigs etc

One small point though regarding Russia, they may have lost millions more lives fighting fascism than the Americans and British.
But they werent fighting for our freedom.
They didnt win our freedom.
Unless you call stalinist communist Russia free or the USSR and the iron curtain countries.
They were far from free.
Those millions were defending their motherland but they werent defending what we in the west would describe as freedom.
Soviets were never free.

Very well said Earthman.

Catsmokinpot

Freddie59 wrote:

And whipped the Nazis, whilst taking care of the Japs along the way. They won your freedom for you. The Russians temporarily liberated people, then subdued them - not quite the same.

Well I suppose millions of us must be classed as childish then. I'll take the childish West ahead of the extremist, despotic middle Eastern 'governments' anyday.

well if you call whipped the nazis stepping in while both sides had taken heavy casualties and finished the job. and if you call taking care of the "japs" being attacked by the japanese before they attacked the japanese, having a military installation attacked before they could attack (which they were planning on doing by the way!) and then thoughtlessly killing over a million innocent CIVILLIANS, oh yes thats totally different...

and millions of you are completely childish, noone needs to stoop to the level of another persons actions that is what children do that perpetuates a situation and doesnt do anything to help anyone

Boggle

No the cartoons were offensive. They were told they were offensive. The press could of said "Ok, fair enough sorry for upsetting you" and left it at that. Instead they printed them again in more papers.

Was it offensive for the British to associate the Irish with the IRA? Should the British have not reported anything referring to the cause in which they killed?

Cop on would you? Everyone here knows your grasping at straws trying to justify a reason why the SACRED MUSLIMS are right to go nuts.

News is for reporting things you don't like aswell as things you do like but in this western society we have to learn to deal with that fact - if they can't then let them p1ss off back to the middle east.

BlackWizard

Boggle wrote:

No the cartoons were offensive. They were told they were offensive. The press could of said "Ok, fair enough sorry for upsetting you" and left it at that. Instead they printed them again in more papers.

Boggle wrote:

Was it offensive for the British to associate the Irish with the IRA? Should the British have not reported anything referring to the cause in which they killed?

Cop on would you? Everyone here knows your grasping at straws trying to justify a reason why the SACRED MUSLIMS are right to go nuts.

News is for reporting things you don't like aswell as things you do like but in this western society we have to learn to deal with that fact - if they can't then let them p1ss off back to the middle east.

I can understand why certain people in the middle east found the cartoons
offensive. Years ago alot of us Irish would of found a cartoon or movie
portraying our God in a comedic way offensive. It was not long ago when we
banned a film called "The life of brian" and also "The Exorcist". Back even
further we had armys dedicated to the slaughter of anyone who publically
stood against our religious ideas.

So my understanding of some of the middle eastern countries is that their
societies have yet to evolve to the stage we are at today. I dont think they
will ever evolve on their own now that most of the world has done so, already
its known that this has created a resentment towards these countries.

Right now we all support free speech. I hope
Right now we all respect one and others religion and no country or person or
religion ever consistantly slags or bullies other religions using free speech.
There is a line that cannot be crossed with free speech and I think its a
line drawn by educated common sense.

I think the french summed it up today by using the word "fools" in their
cartoon. Its sad to see the publisher getting sacked but maybe there is more
to it than what it seems.

A wise man with a vast experience of politics and war in these countries
once wrote

Truman wrote:

The Jews, I find are very, very selfish. They care not how many Estonians, Latvians, Finns, Poles, Yugoslavs or Greeks get murdered or mistreated as D[isplaced] P[ersons] as long as the Jews get special treatment. Yet when they have power, physical, financial or political neither Hitler nor Stalin has anything on them for cruelty or mistreatment to the under dog.

Ive nothing against the jews and nor did this president. It was regarding
Israel at the time. But I belive this informative opinion can be applied to
alot of the middle eastern countries. They are extremists in alot of their
decision making and actions. Also alot of their decisions are based knowledge
from their past and their teachings from their religion. I for one do not trust
people who do this. Their education of world affairs to this day still worries
me. They do not understand the full consequences of their actions, spoken
or physical.

Truman wrote:

The Jews have no sense of proportion nor do they have any judgement on world affairs.

Again not pointed directly at the jews but I belive can be applied to alot of
the middle eastern nations.

Note: Truman was not a perfect president and I only refer to him as wise in
only certain political fields.

Capt'n Midnight

On BBC Radio 4 they said that some Danish Muslims travelled to the middle east and were showing the cartoons and OTHER ONES TOO. Those people should be held accountable for incitement too.

The Life of Brian was banned here too, and no lynchings when it was later shown. I don't claim to know sharia law but while it bans blasphamy, what punishment does it suggest, compared to the events that have happened.

AFAIK Denmark has anti-incitement laws , anyone know if anyone has lodged an official complaint so the due process of law can happen ?

Vangelis

To Catholics: How do you feel about this issue? How did you react when your Pope was offended last time?

I myself am very humble. I can understand the Muslims' resentment. But I do not support their re-actions. They make me scared and frustrated. I've never been so afraid in my life.

Those are true words from a homegrown, ethnic Norwegian.

I cannot hate any Muslims. I know what it is like to have one's faith harrassed.

But to those who support the Danish newspaper and all those who embrace its manners, do you protect people's rights to offend the Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, Taoists and other religions?

Capt'n Midnight

Freddie59 wrote:

No actually - I'm not. I'm giving support and recognition to a country which has paid for our Western freedom in millions of lives.

TRUE, but not with American lives.
The US military has killed approx 10 million civilians since the end of WWII.

Freddie59 wrote:

Were it not for them this forum would not exist. Hitler (or maybe some of his middle eastern relations) would now be running the show.

look up info about the numbers of troops/divisions on the Eastern and Western fronts. eg: Germans had Jet Aircraft, but the engines only lasted 10 hours because they didn't have the vital raw materials. Army groups were delayed by hours by single Russian tanks during the invasion ( I've heard this related to three different types of tanks T34, the multi-turrreted one, and IITC an IS) Don't forget that Napoleaon got to Moscow for all the good it did him. Germany lost their best chance of avoiding defeat when the Japanese decided to strike south instead of north into Siberia. But then again this would have freed up a lot of Eurpean Colonial manpower and resources so it would probably have evened out.

Freddie59 wrote:

Yes, God Bless America. Long may they reign and protect us from the midlle ages, middle east mindset.

Once you remember that the "holy land" is in the middle east, many US fundamentalists, Christians and Jews appear to my eyes to have that mindset too. cf. Debate re Evolution, and personal freedoms, the whole political right. In the USA today "Western freedom" is under attack, I could get two years in prison for this post if some found it annoying ! Things like the patriot act mean that the US is less free than it was a decade ago.

Also the neo-cons were friends with Muslim extremeists not so long ago when they united against the common enemy of the "Red Empire". Check up and you will find many CIA links too.

Wibbs

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

On BBC Radio 4 they said that some Danish Muslims travelled to the middle east and were showing the cartoons and OTHER ONES TOO. Those people should be held accountable for incitement too.

Too right they should be.

I don't claim to know sharia law but while it bans blasphamy, what punishment does it suggest, compared to the events that have happened.

It suggests that those who insult a the Prophet(or indeed any prophet, Jesus etc.) should be killed. People killed those who insulted Mohammed in his own lifetime and he cleared them of the act. A poet and a slave girl killed by her master/husband spring to mind.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...d/038.sat.html scroll down to 4348. If you read the next one it's a jewish woman that is strangled for "abuse" and disparagement. I would suspect these cartoons would fall within this remit, especially if you add the ban on idolatory and image making.


Unfortunately, this is the kind of guff the fundamentalists take comfort from. The christian fundi's do the same kind of reasoning when they attack abortionists. It seems to be more widespread in Islam. I suspect due to lack of education and more fervent beliefs in Islamic countries. It was also a more "martial" faith than others from the get go, so that may add to it.


BTW Capt'n Midnight. Great historical lesson there and good post in general.

BlackWizard

Vangelis wrote:

But to those who support the Danish newspaper and all those who embrace its manners, do you protect people's rights to offend the Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, Taoists and other religions?

I do respect the freedom of speech. I think the Bible is the most creative
book ive ever read. What I just said is offensive to every catholic and some
other religions out there. But its the way in which I used it that makes it not
in your face offensive. What I said was an opinion which can be understood
by others as offensive. Now if I take an opinion and make it funny by drawing
a picture of God on a toilet seat in heaven with a porn magazine this can also
be seen as offensive. But its not in your face offensive. Im just using art to
describe a common topic of discussion that week. What I am saying is that
our so called God seems to be like the average bum. Just sitting about doing
nothing.

But abusing free speech is another subject. Is that what you are trying to
get at? You think the danish paper is being a bully and abusing its freedom of
speech?

lili

well, i'm not too much into sacred stuffs. my family is sacred for me, i wouldn't burn a building or kill someone if a member of family is insulted by draws though.

Frederico

Vangelis wrote:

They make me scared and frustrated. I've never been so afraid in my life.

I can't even think of anything to say to this its so ridiculous. This guy is pulling our leg I think. Man, if you are serious, then you have alot more to fear from traffic, electrical storms, toasters, plastic bags...

Capt'n Midnight

Vangelis wrote:

But to those who support the Danish newspaper and all those who embrace its manners, do you protect people's rights to offend the Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, Taoists and other religions?

Voltaire? wrote:

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".

And we have laws that cover incitement, so there is NO excuse to resort to violence.

Scientology is also big into silencing critics. It has used the legal system at the drop of a hat. Islam would have a stronger case and certainly is a more widespread and longer respected faith.

BlackWizard

Frederico wrote:

I can't even think of anything to say to this its so ridiculous. This guy is pulling our leg I think. Man, if you are serious, then you have alot more to fear from traffic, electrical storms, toasters, plastic bags...

Its the first international crisis that im actually worried about also.

Explain why its ridiculous please. If you cant explain why this current situation
brings about no emotions of worry from anyone in western countires then I
suggest you edit your post because I think its "ridiculous".