Where do you stand on the Muslim cartoon issue?

lili

am i the only one to think that the reaction to those draws are a little hysterical?
i mean, i would prefere watch muslims in the streets when ugly stuffs are done in the name of god!

SpitfireIV

I'm sort of on the fence on this issue. I dont like what the Danes did (no more than I like what the French have said they are doing to do) nor do I agree with the way the Muslims have reacted, it was a bit much. But you are messing with religion and a people who take there religion to heart, so that is NOT right! Each to there own.

What I dont like either is on this forum and others seeing these 'Support Denmark', 'Support the Free World', and 'Buy Danish' adverts, why should I support Denmark? They started this whole mess lest ye forget. So I'm supposed to support Denamrk because they antagonised a major world religion?? I dont think so :rolleyes: .

CroppyBoy1798

BlackWizard

CroppyBoy1798 wrote:

I'm sort of on the fence on this issue. I dont like what the Danes did (no more than I like what the French have said they are doing to do) nor do I agree with the way the Muslims have reacted, it was a bit much. But you are messing with religion and a people who take there religion to heart, so that is NOT right! Each to there own.

What I dont like either is on this forum and others seeing these 'Support Denmark', 'Support the Free World', and 'Buy Danish' adverts, why should I support Denmark? They started this whole mess lest ye forget. So I'm supposed to support Denamrk because they antagonised a major world religion?? I dont think so :rolleyes: .

CroppyBoy1798

I agree with about 75% of your post. Im glad your on the fence on this issue.
Thats where western politicians have been on this since it all started.

If you look at Democracy as a religion and try to see the situation as our
religion coming in conflict with the other religion then you might understand
why others feel the urge to support our fellow country denmark. They merly
use art as a form of communication. If you look at what they communicated
its just an impression of these peoples god percieved by someone who
knows little about their religion and only their actions based on their religion.

Edit: "1798" Age of birth?

SpitfireIV

BlackWizard wrote:

If you look at Democracy as a religion and try to see the situation as our
religion coming in conflict with the other religion then you might understand
why others feel the urge to support our fellow country denmark. They merly
use art as a form of communication. If you look at what they communicated
its just an impression of these peoples god percieved by someone who
knows little about their religion and only their actions based on their religion.

Edit: "1798" Age of birth?

So if any western country decided to 'skit' (because thats what it was, a blatant and insulting skit towards another religion) an eastern religion, I should stand by my western neighbours because thats what we ought to do??

I can think of other ways of using art as a form of communication, they knew well what they were doing, believe me, and know how serious the Muslims take there religion, so the blame is with them. As I said in my other post, I still think the muslim reaction was uncalled for and there should be other ways of protesting, but then the media would have us believe what they want and like most issues concerning the middle east, blow it out of all proportion.

Edit: "1798" Year of the Irish rebellion, an attempt to establish a goverment for the people, by the people that had the aspirations of all religions at heart.

CroppyBoy1798

BlackWizard

CroppyBoy1798 wrote:

So if any western country decided to 'skit' (because thats what it was, a blatant and insulting skit towards another religion) an eastern religion, I should stand by my western neighbours because thats what we ought to do??

Sorry but its not a blatant and insulting skit towards another religion.
Its just an impression of these peoples god percieved by someone who
knows little about their religion and only their actions based on their religion.
Its a hot topic of conversation shown in a form of art. Arts been used like this
for years.

If they had drawn a picture of their God kissing our Gods ass then it would be
"a blatant and insulting skit towards another religion".

Freddie59

Catsmokinpot wrote:

well if you call whipped the nazis stepping in while both sides had taken heavy casualties and finished the job. and if you call taking care of the "japs" being attacked by the japanese before they attacked the japanese, having a military installation attacked before they could attack (which they were planning on doing by the way!) and then thoughtlessly killing over a million innocent CIVILLIANS, oh yes thats totally different...

and millions of you are completely childish, noone needs to stoop to the level of another persons actions that is what children do that perpetuates a situation and doesnt do anything to help anyone

I must say you have a very selective (if not clouded) view of history. So the millions of us who you call childish are wrong and you are right?

Freddie59

Vangelis wrote:

To Catholics: How do you feel about this issue? How did you react when your Pope was offended last time?

I myself am very humble. I can understand the Muslims' resentment. But I do not support their re-actions. They make me scared and frustrated. I've never been so afraid in my life.

Those are true words from a homegrown, ethnic Norwegian.

I cannot hate any Muslims. I know what it is like to have one's faith harrassed.

But to those who support the Danish newspaper and all those who embrace its manners, do you protect people's rights to offend the Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, Taoists and other religions?

As a Catholic I have seen many jokes about God, The Pope, etc and found many very funny. I'm sure even God himself raises a wry smile at some - after all He did give us our sense of humour.:)

Freddie59

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

TRUE, but not with American lives.
The US military has killed approx 10 million civilians since the end of WWII..

And saved, in turn, millions of Western lives.

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

look up info about the numbers of troops/divisions on the Eastern and Western fronts. eg: Germans had Jet Aircraft, but the engines only lasted 10 hours because they didn't have the vital raw materials.

Don't know where you're getting your figures. The only operational German Jet fighter had a flight time of six minutes approx, when the fuel ran out it became a high speed glider. It was totally uncontrollable and only a small amount of kills were attributed to it, as it advanced faster than the approaching aircraft, making accuracy impossible.

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Things like the patriot act mean that the US is less free than it was a decade ago.

Because..........they're defending themselves. And rightly so.
QUOTE]

Captain Trips

Freddie59 wrote:

Over reacting? About six million deaths. I actually place a value on human life. Yes it is freedom of speech and if I am seen by some (blinkered) people to be over reacting then they're entitled to that opinion. Pople said that about Winston Churchill in the late 30s.........

Was that before or after Churchill refused to accept a peace treaty with Nazi Germany? Before Britain got dragged unwillingly into the war? I can't remember. (Spot the irony there).

Captain Trips

ambro25 wrote:

Can I ask people perusing this thread 3 simple questions:

(i) why such a furore now for something that dates back to September 2005? (i.e. whose agenda?)

Well ask yourself what is the benefit of these protests?

1. Certainly, the larger Muslim community doesn't keeps loads of Danish and Norwegian flags lying around by chance, so there are definitely local instigators of these riots, much as the UN was informed and broadcast by CNN on Sunday morning.

2. If a war with Iran is closing in fast, as Putin has inferred, would EUropean nations be more supportive this time and perhaps try out the Rapid Reaction Forces in Iran? The US couldn't invade my kitchen at this point without losing control of my kettle.

Likewise, as Americans watching TV from Belfast in the 1980s would presume we are all drunk violent religiously aggressive fools, watching the IRA/Orangemen/etc., etc., . Yet, they don't realise that a small group of people do not represent the larger nation.

So likewise, we can learn (from this experience of people's perspective's of Ireland abroad) that the TV protests have a certain unreal quality about them, as it's unlikely that they (the muslims in Iran, Syria, Lebanon and so on) are no different to us and there are not millions of Indonesians demanding to blow up Europe.

Ireland was not a warzone of primitive religious freaks in the 1980s - yet foreign television protrayed us as such.

The middle-east is not a warzone of primitive religious freaks in the 2000s - yet foreign television protrays them as such.




Will you support a war by European nations on Iran? That is the ultimate purpose - to raise European support for the next war, IMHO. Conspiracy? We'll see over the next 6-8 weeks.

Beer is Life

http://mm.andreib.com/fun/popecore.jpg

*Runs away from the rioting Catholics*

Vangelis

I found some images which I will post here. They might say something...

Freddie59

Vangelis wrote:

I found some images which I will post here. They might say something...

Very good example of the mindset. And the 'real holocaust' is being carried by......a woman.......almost treated as a sub species in some parts. Maybe that's why she's in England.

Freddie59

Captain Trips wrote:

Was that before or after Churchill refused to accept a peace treaty with Nazi Germany? Before Britain got dragged unwillingly into the war? I can't remember. (Spot the irony there).

I'm trying to. Dragged unwillingly is stretching it a bit. They had to. They were next on the list. Churchill did try to warn them - but was ignored:

"In 1934, at age 60, Winston Churchill spoke about the dangerous rise of German military power under the Nazi regime of Adolf Hitler. But most Britons were focused on domestic affairs, because of the depression, so Churchill's warnings about Hitler went unheeded"

http://www.school-for-champions.com/biographies/churchill3.htm

Oh yes you could have signed a peace treaty with Adolf alright. Neville Chamberlain and 'peace in our time' comes to mind. For Hitler, write the President of Iran - for Germany write Iran. And for Neville Chamberlain and appeasement write the people who think you can reason with these terrorists hiding behind religion.

ambro25

Captain Trips wrote:

Well ask yourself what is the benefit of these protests? (etc.)

I think I can well imagine what is the benefit of the protest and who is most likely to benefit - my questions were rethorical

You want a conspiracy theory? all the US...sorry, the free world is after, is getting a hand on as many oil-producing ME countries as possible to safeguard/reserve as much of this most major of economy boosters, oil, before the Chinese get to it themselves - as otherwise they'll eat us raw, economically, within a couple of decades. So how do you go about that? Well, you stir up enough sh1t over long enough a time about the countries in question, be it about their leaders, their religion, etc, etc... and then you find yourself fighting the good fight and meeting your ends.

So, the drawings in all this? well, just another piece of straw, eventually one will break the camel's back and then it's "Right, Iraq's done with, UAE are in the pocket, onto the next ME country, lads!"

Howzat?

Wibbs

Freddie59 wrote:

Don't know where you're getting your figures. The only operational German Jet fighter had a flight time of six minutes approx, when the fuel ran out it became a high speed glider. It was totally uncontrollable and only a small amount of kills were attributed to it, as it advanced faster than the approaching aircraft, making accuracy impossible.

If you're going to go OT at least get your facts right. The "only" operational german jet fighter(ME262 and variants) had a far higher range than that. In practice the engines were crap due to operational and material pressures and shortened flight times, but technically was capable of hours of flight(up to 1000km). They were also effective in putting a serious scare into the bomber crews and the fighters charged to protect them. I know this because a relative of mine had to engage and try and shoot them down. Try telling him about their ineffectiveness. He had to limp home after one of them ineffectively shot up his oil lines. http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/Messerschmit/page4.html

You're thinking about the german rocket propelled aircraft.

For Hitler, write the President of Iran - for Germany write Iran. And for Neville Chamberlain and appeasement write the people who think you can reason with these terrorists hiding behind religion.

Riiiight. Germany with a huge standing army, navy and air force that was capable of invading and subdueing pretty much all of Europe and Iran which eh..... hum, eh.... isn't. They couldn't invade your local chipper. They're sabre rattling with wooden sabres. For gods sake make some decent comparisons. Comparing every despotical regime to nazi germany is hardly inventive or useful.

Captain Trips makes some good points there. It'll be interseting to see how this pans out.

Catsmokinpot

Catsmokinpot wrote:

dont you detect the hint of sarcasm in my sig or were you actually taking it seriously? my god bless russia sig was to point out how stupid the god bless america sig was:rolleyes:

no this is the internet and my mind reading capabilities via broadband are limited.

Now stay on topic everyone or I'll be using my mod tools.

Wibbs

Yea sorry about my foray into aeronauctical history there.

SeanW

It's starting to become more clear just what the hell actually happened. These cartoons were published in the middle of last year.

As to why it took until now for the bedlam to start, I've found the answer. Incitment.

"Danish" Musilms put together a brochure of images taken from European press, supposidly to show we're all racist and we all hate muslims, which apparently they then distributed around the Middle-East, undoubtedly along with some fair-and-balanced commentary that the Middle East is so famous for.

Here's the funny part, some of the images used in the said brochure had NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH ISLAM. See this article. AP Protests misue of photos of a French pig-squealing contest, which nothing to do with the issue whatsoever.

Should the French president now apologise for causing offence/hurt/pain/PTSD or whatever? Should they ban pig-squealing contests because some Islamo-fascist f*** (who is only in Europe to start trouble anyway) decided they cause offense? Will there be any end to the madness if these crazy nutjobs aren't faced down?

There is now an overriding onus on all of us to stand by Denmark in it's hour of difficulty. It could be something as simple as putting a Danish flag in your sig/blog whatever, or going for a Carlsburg instead of the usual at the pub or off-license. Got children? Buy 'em some Lego. We must not, however, do nothing.

Catsmokinpot

Freddie59 wrote:

I must say you have a very selective (if not clouded) view of history. So the millions of us who you call childish are wrong and you are right?

what was selective and clouded about what i said? is what i said not true??? please tell me im wrong but didnt they drop 2 nuclear weapons on heavily populated areas just coz their biggest military base from which they could launch any military endevour was completely destroyed, im not saying that the japanese were a bunch of angels but america's **** smells just as bad as the rest of em.... i never blame people for their actions but the nations governments are definitely to blame

millions of people think like me are are we wrong too? oh but we dont matter... do we? the same things keep happening throughout history and idiots who wave banners keep it going, so what if the middle east has this view of those cartoons does that mean we should go waving banners. and adding to it

you may think that america is a peachy pillar of democracy but they are just as savage as middle eastern countries you say are beneath them, they did after all use the only nuclear weapons dropped in wartime, then they go around telling everyone else not to get nukes or we'll go to war with you!!! dont give me that bull, they dont want iran to have weapons because they dont want iran to be able to do what they want.

if they were so righteous in freeing iraq.... why didnt they lend a hand to the burmese when their democratically elected leader was overthrown by a brutal dictatorship? i mean surely they wanted democracy?... surely they were so close..... why didnt america help? because america only give a fúck about themselves

Earthman wrote:

no this is the internet and my mind reading capabilities via broadband are limited.

Now stay on topic everyone or I'll be using my mod tools.

ok maybe my thought projection capabilities arent that good ill try again... nanananananananana! dadadadadadada! pichiooo! pichiooo! pichiooo! :v: sorry though i will stay on topic from now on

Boggle

Its getting beyond a joke at this stage - maybe someone should start a petition or register in support of the paper and its right to untethered reporting... although I doubt the nutjobs'd like the outcome.

Hobbes

Use the goddam already existing threads. For that matter read them as well you will find answers to what you are spouting already.

Here's the funny part, some of the images used in the said brochure had NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH ISLAM. See this article. AP Protests misue of photos of a French pig-squealing contest, which nothing to do with the issue whatsoever.

That is the source of the picture, but that is not the picture they took with them. It was a photocopy of that picture exclaiming it was Muhammad. They had received it with all the usual crap they get as mail from idiots in Denmark (note idiots does not mean all people from Denmark are idiots).

Catsmokinpot

Catsmokinpot wrote:

because america only give a fúck about themselves

Thats true of people in general though and from there it extends itself into governments of countries.
Governments being made up of people.
I mean the IDA dont give grants to set up factories in Scotland,
yet the people of Scotland are surely as deserving of jobs as the Irish.
People in general do give charitable donations as do countries but in the final analysis, just as some people are just interested in getting the latest plasma telly, they arent going to give to charity donations such that they cant afford said telly.

Now thats more deserving of a topic all of its own.If any of ye wish to discuss it, then open a different thread or I'll splitt the OT stuff off to a separate one instead should this line continue.

Dave!

Lego is Danish?

Cool!!!

I'll change my sig when I get home, and I'll pick up some Carlsberg in future.

It's getting ridiculous now how afraid the West is of Islam... It's nice to see that alot of countries are uniting against this crap though.

I wonder if the Irish government are gonna say anything.

Hobbes

Edit.. correction. The pig cartoon wasn't even part of the list that the Muslim Inmans brought on tour. It appears it was pulled (by mistake) from another source by the media services.

This appears to have a good timeline of what went on..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons

The protesting/rioting didn't actually start until the pictures were printed in other newspapers. Up to that point numerous peaceful means were used to voice being upset by the offense.

Btw, the majority of the countries in the world while disagree with the rioting/violence said that the cartoons were in poor taste and should never of been reprinted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_reactions_to_the_Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy

Freddie59

Wibbs wrote:

If you're going to go OT at least get your facts right. The "only" operational german jet fighter(ME262 and variants) had a far higher range than that. In practice the engines were crap due to operational and material pressures and shortened flight times, but technically was capable of hours of flight(up to 1000km)

You're thinking about the german rocket propelled aircraft.

Eh - no actually - I'm not. From:http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=10xhskcigzi8o?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Messerschmitt+Me+262&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc07a&linktext=Messerschmitt%20Me%20262

"Operationally, the Me 262 had an endurance of 60 to 90 minutes".

That would have been in ideal conditions. Because of the fact that they were experimental, and the shortage of fuel, the actual propelled flight was in or about 6 minutes. Watch the documentary on the History Channel.;)

Wibbs wrote:

Riiiight. Germany with a huge standing army, navy and air force that was capable of invading and subdueing pretty much all of Europe and Iran which eh..... hum, eh.... isn't. They couldn't invade your local chipper. They're sabre rattling with wooden sabres. For gods sake make some decent comparisons. Comparing every despotical regime to nazi germany is hardly inventive or useful.

Actually it is. It's called learning the lessons of history - you should try it. It's extremely naieve to hold such a view of Iran. Should they get a nuke they will use it. Make no mistake, and it will be Israel who'll get it first. You won't have to worry about your local chipper. Wooden sabres of today are the nuclear weapons of tomorrow.

Hobbes

Hobbes wrote:

Use the goddam already existing threads. For that matter read them as well you will find answers to what you are spouting already.

I tend to agree on this occassion.

Merging this with the existing thread.
I'll decide on the other one in a moment.

Dave!

http://www.petitiononline.com/danmark/petition.html

Over 25,000 signatures already!