Quick fix for Blanchardstown

Victor

Run trains to Broadstone and terminate southside busses there.

[revisions in post 13]
Orange - current DART & Suburban rail including Phoenix Park Tunnel
Pink - restored railway line
Dark Green - Luas
Red - southside routes that currently terminate at Parnell Square 1, 2, 7/A/B/D, 14/A, 44, 46A/B/C/D/E, 48A, 58C, 145
Yellow - cross city routes that currently go via Broadstone 19/A, 83
Black - cross city routes that currently go via Phibsborough 10/A, 121, 122
Navy - northside routes that currently terminate at Parnell Square 120

BrianD

Should all the Orange not be called DART instead of Arrow. Surely the Maynooth line should be next for electrification?

And what about bring the Green Line Luas up to Broadstone? Where is the pink line terminating? It seems to be two points at a relatively short distance from each other.

Winters

Nice idea but the Spencer Dock station will be up and running well before a redeveloped Broadstone could ever be.

Charles Darwin

There's two pink bits at the city end - is that correct?

Charles Darwin

I think it's an interesting idea. He's suggesting slight deviations or extensions of existing bus routes - so no new buses would be required to actually enable people to get to the city centre. Plus there are two wide roads (Western Way and Constitution Hill) leading to Broadstone. Perhaps Grangegorman upper and lower might also be used.

Access from Spencer Dock to the city centre would not be nearly as good - pretty much the clogged North wall quay and Sheriff Street. The Macken Street bridge doesn't look like it's happening any time soon. Plus it would require quite lengthy extensions or deviations of existing bus routes to get the buses down to Spencer dock. There are pretty much no buses which currently travel east of Butt Bridge. So expenditure on extra buses would probably be required.

Winters

The Spencer Dock station is in preparation for planning at the moment and will be served by the Luas docklands extension. Congestion on the quays will be relieved by the Dublin Port Tunnel opening this year.

People will not be enticed into dual mode journeys (combining rail+bus etc.) while the antiquated stage rebate fare system is still in operation.

J.R.HARTLEY

doesn't matter what you do in the city centre if blanchardstown itself remains congested.
some mornings it takes a bus over 40 mins to travel maybe a kilometre of the clonsilla road.

Charles Darwin

The LUAS will get to Spencer Dock when all the fighting with the IFSC businesses about the route is over and done with. That might take some time. Then it has to be built. 2010? Even then it only gets people from Spencer Dock to the north side of the city centre.

Extension/diversion of buses to Broadstone could, if the will was there, happen within a month, probably less. And relaying the track, with no art galleries and stuff in the way. How long would that take, a year? So start date for this plan could be sometime in 2007.

As a quick fix for the Maynooth line it's not perfect, but it's not bad.

Victor

Well, actually, looking at it Spencer Dock could be an alternative, but it wouldn't have the space for a large number of buses.

Macken Street Bridge is expected to go to site soon.

The proposal has an advantage in being simple, avoids the train congestion at Connolly and means more trains can be put in place as they become available.

BrianD wrote:

Should all the Orange not be called DART instead of Arrow.

The map indicates what is there at the moment.

Surely the Maynooth line should be next for electrification?

I'm all for it, but it is a bigger project.

And what about bring the Green Line Luas up to Broadstone?

I'm all for it, but it is a bigger project.

Where is the pink line terminating? It seems to be two points at a relatively short distance from each other.

My mistake. I'm actually only suggesting one terminus, either along the eastern or western boundaies of the Broadstone site.

Broadstone has parking capacity for 400+ buses, connects to the Grangegorman site (all the DIT colleges are moving there) and with a push has space for both Luas and DART.

Winters wrote:

Nice idea but the Spencer Dock station will be up and running well before a redeveloped Broadstone could ever be.

I imagine similar timelines, but Spencer Dock doesn't have the connectivity - yet. Planning-wise, laying some track and adding a simple station with two/three platforms at Broadstone is a lot easier than Spencer Dock station + Luas. I would however consider restoring the bridge over Constitution Hill / Phisborough Road to allow a more direct access between Western Way / Dominick Street and Broadstone.

Winters wrote:

The Spencer Dock station is in preparation for planning at the moment and will be served by the Luas docklands extension.

All very much up in the air.

Winters wrote:

Congestion on the quays will be relieved by the Dublin Port Tunnel opening this year.

Hopefully, but will the port trucks merely be replaced by delivery trucks and cars?

People will not be enticed into dual mode journeys (combining rail+bus etc.) while the antiquated stage rebate fare system is still in operation.

One solution at a time, at the moment people from Blanchardstown have little choice - from Connolly many will have to change to bus / DART anyway.

J.R.HARTLEY wrote:

doesn't matter what you do in the city centre if blanchardstown itself remains congested.

Another [strike]day's[/strike] thread's fight

J.R.HARTLEY wrote:

some mornings it takes a bus over 40 mins to travel maybe a kilometre of the clonsilla road.

Thats because nearly everyone is trying to go directly to the city centre. Have more people head for the trains stations and it lessens the fight for everyone.

murphaph

The alignment from Liffey Junction to Broadstone is earmarked under T21 for Luas from Broombridge to the city centre to tie into the rest of the then Luas network with a possible extension to Finglas (metrowest at M50) post T21.

Nevyn

The broadstone station may remove the restriction for slots at connelly station
but the track from clonsilla to maynooth is still only one line and that limits the ammount of rail traffic.

John R

Thaedydal wrote:

The broadstone station may remove the restriction for slots at connelly station
but the track from clonsilla to maynooth is still only one line and that limits the ammount of rail traffic.

Clonsilla-Maynooth was doubled several years ago.

The problems at Connolly could be overcome with some imaginative operations, I could draw up a working timetable that would allow a 10minute or better frequency from Maynooth - Connolly and free up more peak time slots for DART and northern suburban services that could be implemented today.

Victor

Thaedydal wrote:

but the track from clonsilla to maynooth is still only one line and that limits the ammount of rail traffic.

What are you doing in here

Two rails + sleepers + base = one track

One or more tracks together = one line

---

I did some more poking of bus routes

Orange - current DART & Suburban rail including Phoenix Park Tunnel

Pink - restored railway line

Dark Green - Luas

Red - southside routes that currently terminate at O'Connell Street / Parnell Square / Mountjoy Square 1, 2, 5, 7/A/B/D, 8, 14/A, 44/C, 46A/B/C/D/E, 48A, 58C, 116, 117, 118, 145

Yellow - cross city routes that currently go via Broadstone 19/A, 83

Black - cross city routes that currently go via Phibsborough 10/A, 37X, 39X, 121, 122

Navy - northside routes that currently terminate at Parnell Square / Parnell Square / Westmoreland Street 38/A/B/C, 40/A/B/C/D, 120


This leave nothing heading towards the North East of the city, one possible solution would be to re-route the 123 and 130

The 748 could operate Heuston - Broadstone - Phibsborough - Ballymun - Airport as a semi-express, picking up only on the outbound / charging the €5 fare. This could be topped up with a Heuston - Broadstone - Phibsborough "route 93"

Some of the multitude of routes coming through Drumcondra could be sent through Phibsborough - Broadstone - 3, 11/A/B, 13/A, 41s

Was the 134 one of the routes that were merged to form the 83?

Other southside routes that currently terminate at O'Connell Bridge / Fleet Street / College Street / Hawkins Street 15/A/B/C/D/E/F, 45, 49/A, 50, 84/x, 150.

I still need to go through the 51-79

Metrobest

Sending more buses along the city centre part of the 83 route alignment, avoiding O'Connell Street, should be central to Dublin Bus's route plan it has promised to submit to Martin Cullen.

The key thing is to get buses off O'Connell Street. These days, most of the traffic on that street is buses - which delay other buses.

Victor

Metrobest wrote:

Sending more buses along the city centre part of the 83 route alignment, avoiding O'Connell Street, should be central to Dublin Bus's route plan it has promised to submit to Martin Cullen.

Actually I would modify this. The 83 goes from South Great Georges Street to Westmoreland Street only to double back to Church Street. A possibility would be via Christchurch returning via Parliament Street. Capel Street might also be an idea.

The key thing is to get buses off O'Connell Street. These days, most of the traffic on that street is buses - which delay other buses.

I think its more the road works interfering with the buses than the buses themselves, e.g. at the Gresham Hotel, several routes are expected to pick-up / set-down on a single stop, with no space for a second or third bus to even set-down.

Nevyn

John R wrote:

Clonsilla-Maynooth was doubled several years ago.

Really so I last week was sitting on the train at clonsilla for no reason waiting for the change over. :rolleyes:

They need to split te 39 into 3 routes to cover the area and get enough buses
to cope with the ammount of people looking to use them.

Metrobest

Victor wrote:

Actually I would modify this. The 83 goes from South Great Georges Street to Westmoreland Street only to double back to Church Street. A possibility would be via Christchurch returning via Parliament Street. Capel Street might also be an idea.

I think its more the road works interfering with the buses than the buses themselves, e.g. at the Gresham Hotel, several routes are expected to pick-up / set-down on a single stop, with no space for a second or third bus to even set-down.

Good idea Victor. Would there be room on Parliament Street for a contra-flow bus lane? If not the bus could travel down Thomas Street and onto Church Street?

Another problem with O'Connell Street is that Dublin Bus decided to re-introduce bus poles onto the lovely GPO plaze. Not only is this aesthetically distasteful, but stopping buses delay other buses, a delay which filters down the length of the street.

BendiBus

Metrobest wrote:

Would there be room on Parliament Street for a contra-flow bus lane?

That would be a classic as I think the first ever bus lane in Dublin was on Parliament St (going in the direction of current traffic). Not sure of it was contraflow back then.

markpb

Metrobest wrote:

Another problem with O'Connell Street is that Dublin Bus decided to re-introduce bus poles onto the lovely GPO plaze. Not only is this aesthetically distasteful, but stopping buses delay other buses, a delay which filters down the length of the street.

I had hoped this was just a temporary measure until the work is finished on upper o'connell st. It really does spoil the entire idea of the plaza.

Charles Darwin

Victor wrote:

This leave nothing heading towards the North East of the city, one possible solution would be to re-route the 123 and 130

It'd be interesting to know how you envisage this scheme working. I imagine you intend retaining the slots at Connolly and running extra trains to Broadstone. So I might go down to Louisa Bridge and get a train to Connolly/Pearse if that suited me or wait 5-10 minutes and get a train to Broadstone, if I worked near there or there were better onward bus connections.

If this is how you see it, it's worth remembering that there are plenty of bus connections to the north east of the city from Drumcondra and Connolly. So someone might get on a Drumcondra/Connolly train if they wished to travel onward to the north east of the city, or get on a Broadstone train if they wished to travel onward to other parts of the city.

murphaph

Thaedydal wrote:

Really so I last week was sitting on the train at clonsilla for no reason waiting for the change over. :rolleyes:

No need for the :rolleyes: , Clonsilla-Maynooth was indeed doubled several years ago. They haven't handed over a token at Clonsilla for many years. You used to see the drivers leaning out of the loco window and catching the token which was on a wire loop, passed to them from the guy in the signal cabin. Anyway-all history, there is no token as there are two tracks all the way to Maynooth for some years now.

Charles Darwin

John R wrote:

The problems at Connolly could be overcome with some imaginative operations, I could draw up a working timetable that would allow a 10minute or better frequency from Maynooth - Connolly and free up more peak time slots for DART and northern suburban services that could be implemented today.

Have you suggested your timetable to the powers that be?

John R

Charles Darwin wrote:

Have you suggested your timetable to the powers that be?

No. It is a very simple solution that they already know about but it doesn't fit in to their plan. (it would make Spencer Dock surface all but redundant for a start)


All it involves is terminating all Maynooth/Longford trains at Connolly Platform 7. Use P6 for all northbound DART/Dundalk and P5 for all Southbound.

If all Maynooth line trains were set to arrive, turnaround and depart within 3-4 minutes it would give more than enough time for the Newcomen curve single section to be cleared within 10 mns for the next train to enter. It would mean a transfer for Tara St/Pearse but that is a hell of a lot better than a yet to be built LUAS from Spencer Dock. It would also mean that Drumcondra would not be served any longer.

This clears a large number of conflicting movements so as well as freeing up all the maynooth train paths from Connolly-Pearse it would allow better and more reliable passage for DART/Northern Suburban through the north of Connolly, only Sligo IC and departing Belfast trains would require conflicting movements.

NavanJunction1

Opening the FULL Navan line will take up to 8,000 commuters off the whole N3, and a huge number off the Stretch outside the shopping centre and other rat runs.

Navan alone is forecast to increase in size by 2/3's in the next 15 years.

Much other stuff has to be put in place, but Navan is Blanch's best hope by miles..

Metrobest

John R wrote:

No. It is a very simple solution that they already know about but it doesn't fit in to their plan. (it would make Spencer Dock surface all but redundant for a start)


All it involves is terminating all Maynooth/Longford trains at Connolly Platform 7. Use P6 for all northbound DART/Dundalk and P5 for all Southbound.

If all Maynooth line trains were set to arrive, turnaround and depart within 3-4 minutes it would give more than enough time for the Newcomen curve single section to be cleared within 10 mns for the next train to enter. It would mean a transfer for Tara St/Pearse but that is a hell of a lot better than a yet to be built LUAS from Spencer Dock. It would also mean that Drumcondra would not be served any longer.

This clears a large number of conflicting movements so as well as freeing up all the maynooth train paths from Connolly-Pearse it would allow better and more reliable passage for DART/Northern Suburban through the north of Connolly, only Sligo IC and departing Belfast trains would require conflicting movements.

Incredibly, I find myself in agreement with JohnR!

Connolly Station is definately an under-utilised resource. It is the most central station, has the best onward connections, and has the track capacity to handle more train movements.

A clockface timetable, where trains to particular destinations depart at set intervals every hour common in most other cities, would synergise the current capacity and carry far more passengers on more frequent trains. It can be done, but the will is not there to do it. Irish Rail management, through a combination of laziness, ineptitude and fear of trade union strife, would rather that less passengers are carried and less track capacity utilised. As a state-sponsored monopoly, why would they do anything else?

murphaph

John R's simple proposal could be modified to forget about Newcommen Curve as the approach to P7 from the Drumcondra Line doesn't conflict with DARTs or could easily be modified to do this.

I'm living on the Maynooth line but I can see that this solution is far better than the so called docklands station that IE want to build. Spencer Dock offered so much but IE sold it all off for so little.

As well as terminating ALL Maynooth line trains at P7 they should terminate all Rosslare services at Pearse (may require some signalling changes) and allow ONLY DARTs and northern line commuter trains over the loop line.

It's all political though as it sounds like you're shafting Maynooth/Rosslare users when you're actually not. Many people have no problem changing to a DART at Connolly as it is and I'd imagine even fewer would object if the DART was restored to it's former frequent glory by eliminating conflicts.

This is the best way forward until the interconnector but because it sounds to the average punter like a shafing, it won't happen. I'd like to add that as the Maynooth line is rapidly overtaking the northern line in terms of development and once it does then the priorities should be switched, so that Maynooth trains get electrified and run through Connolly P5 and P6 with northern line DARTs and commuter trains terminating in the shed (P1-4) in Connolly.

None of this will happen unfortunately. I'd happily accept cutting the Maynooth-Pearse direct stuff for more trains with a quick change at Connolly (preferably syncronised train arrivals/departures to allow a cross platform change in the evenings, just step off a northbound DART at P6 and get on a waiting Maynooth train at P7).

In my view, this would be preferable to the proposed docklands station and if the frequency was set at 15 mins on the Maynooth Line then there would be scope to sneak Kildare line trains around the Phoenix Park Tunnel to P7 also on a 10-15 min frequency as 5-7.5 mins would be ample time to terminate and get out of P7 back onto the Drumcondra Line. It would be a vastly superior service to what IE are proposing right now.

IE have no imagination I'm afraid but also are under the reins of te DoT and politics is a bastard.

MarkoP11

Rule one of timetabling is not to reduce the service to any party, there can be no (apparent) losers thus terminating everything in Connolly would lead to a serious backlash from the several thousand who travel to Tara, Pearse and further, also misses Drumcondra

There is little or no capacity for onward transfer, try Connolly at 8:28am. Some northern line trains terminate in Connolly so you have to account for them too, a suburban train takes 1200 you would be lucky to fit 300 onto a DART at that time as Tara and Pearse remain the busier stations. Northside DART services are already loading to crush levels

Newcommen Curve offers no capacity advantage in fact

6 trains per hour is the most you can get from Maynooth to the city as things currently stand 3 of which would reach Bray the rest Connolly, you could get 8 once the signalling is upgraded

Turnarounds are at minimum 5 minutes, 1 minute per coach length is the rule it has to be reliable

The principle restriction is not the timetable or track or management its a lack of rolling stock to use the resources available at least a further 60 coaches would be needed to fully saturate Connolly, next question is where to park all these trains when they reach Connolly? Go down to Connolly at 8:20-8:35, 2 trains terminate in parallel and a further 5 pass through there is no physical way any more trains could fit in, in fact the problem is the station cant cope with the volumes of people it produces.

All the conflicts can be timetabled out leaving everyone with a perfect clockface service but it leaves one problem Malahide and that comes with a €40 million price tag, extra rolling stock is another €120 million and that will take at least 2 years

murphaph

I think the point about onward capacity is to eliminate conflicts caused my Maynooth trains crossing the DART paths and run more DARTs. I can see that rolling stock would be a issue but additiona rolling stock is needed anyway.

I don't believe Connolly would be as badly staurated if the conflicts were removed and changes forced. It just can't happen because it 'looks' bad.

They could also have short 4 car DARTs waiting empty at Fairview sidings for the arrival of fully laden Maynooth trains at P7. These Fairview DARTs would not conflict with northbound DARTs at all as they pulled out to get to P5 in Connolly.

There are solutions to these issues but more changes are required and that's why it's a dead duck. I spoke to some people who use the Maynooth line everyday and they admitted that the new timetable with mre changes is fine really, just breath in for 1 stop and it's all over.

Metrobest

murphaph wrote:

I think the point about onward capacity is to eliminate conflicts caused my Maynooth trains crossing the DART paths and run more DARTs. I can see that rolling stock would be a issue but additiona rolling stock is needed anyway.

I don't believe Connolly would be as badly staurated if the conflicts were removed and changes forced. It just can't happen because it 'looks' bad.

They could also have short 4 car DARTs waiting empty at Fairview sidings for the arrival of fully laden Maynooth trains at P7. These Fairview DARTs would not conflict with northbound DARTs at all as they pulled out to get to P5 in Connolly.

There are solutions to these issues but more changes are required and that's why it's a dead duck. I spoke to some people who use the Maynooth line everyday and they admitted that the new timetable with mre changes is fine really, just breath in for 1 stop and it's all over.

Without a doubt the pinch point in the network is Connolly-Pearse, but Irish Rail have insisted on worsening the situation by bad timetabling, lack of imagination and failure to spot commuting trends when the Celtic Tiger began to work her magic.

The tens of million euro investment in a surface station at Spencer Dock that nobody asked for and nobody wants, would be far better spent on improving Connolly. Yes, why not close down Connolly for 6 months or a year and turn it into a world class station? In the short time commuters are disrupted; in the long term they gain because more of them are brought direct into the city centre. The potential is there for another North/South platform, better access facilities and revenue potential in terms of a large retail development above or beneath the station itself.

NavanJunction1

Can I ask what does Spencer Dock have going for it that a Broadstone connected to the Luas doesn't (similar to the extended green line in T21)?

Aside from the northern line piece?

MarkoP11

The problem is a lack of rolling stock it always has been, hell there are 4 coach trains running into Connolly at 8:30 in the morning. Track capacity means nothing if there are not enough trains.

There is a long history of the DoT refusing the release funds for new rolling stock in sufficent time

murphaph

NavanJunction1 wrote:

Can I ask what does Spencer Dock have going for it that a Broadstone connected to the Luas doesn't (similar to the extended green line in T21)?

Not much, however the Broadstone alignment has been promised to Luas and I'd be in favour of that given that our metro will be a highly segregated high capacity Luas to all intents and purposes, so in theory the Broadstone Alignment Luas could be extended to Finglas along the route of the origianal PFC metro alignment and a tunnel could be bored from Broadstone to Ranelagh to give yet another cross-city metro route.

NavanJunction1 wrote:

Aside from the northern line piece?

The northern line piece won't even connect to Sheriff Street station! It'll only connect to Maynooth/Navan! It's an incredibly short sighted stroke by IE.

The KRP will see a massive increase in services into Heuston from Adamstown etc. yet IE have NO PLAN to cater for them and the Luas CANNOT COPE with these people. They should have run under the park to docklands but because IE don't really care about getting people where they want to go, they won't be doing that.

Mark mentions DoT funding and of course he's right, but €30m+ would have bought a fair few DART units.

MarkoP11

€30 million would get 16 coaches
The need is for at least 60 coaches another €110 million plus a heap more to find space to park them
Spencer Dock woudl then require a further 36 coaches, €70 million

You are looking at a need for at roughly 96 further coaches, €180 million more funding before the system reaches its current capacity limit

There never where plans to link Spencer Dock surface the northern line

NavanJunction1

murphaph wrote:

The northern line piece won't even connect to Sheriff Street station! It'll only connect to Maynooth/Navan! It's an incredibly short sighted stroke by IE.

Is there a Maynooth/Navan line capacity benefit for Spencer Dock over Broadstone then?

I just can't help but think that Broadstone is much more central than Spencer Dock. If there is a problem or delay in the interconnector it might still be useful as an extra terminal on top of Spencer Dock.

If Spencer Dock will leave no room for Kildare trains then surely Broadstone as a Maynooth/Navan terminus, and Kildare/Maynooth services split to Spencer Dock may be of use?

I'm not as proficient as some of ye guys on the timetabling/capacity but loosing Broadstone as a possible terminus just seems unfortunate to me.

Surely 2 platforms on the Grangegorman side of Broadstone or in the Building would still leave an option for a cross city Metro, shared track for a distance from Broadstone and then on to Finglas?

There is huge potential to develope the area around Broadstone, and then you have that massive DIT going in.

MarkoP11 wrote:

There never where plans to link Spencer Dock surface the northern line

At the risk sounding like someone that plays with Lego, would it not have made sense to put that link in?

mackerski

NavanJunction1 wrote:

Surely 2 platforms on the Grangegorman side of Broadstone or in the Building would still leave an option for a cross city Metro, shared track for a distance from Broadstone and then on to Finglas?

Gauge conflict........

Dermot

murphaph

NavanJunction1 wrote:

Surely 2 platforms on the Grangegorman side of Broadstone or in the Building would still leave an option for a cross city Metro, shared track for a distance from Broadstone and then on to Finglas?

No that can't happen. The metro is light in nature. You can't have light trains sharing track with heavy ones. It's too dangerous. Broadstone simply can't be used for Navan because it's been given to Luas (possible future upgrade to metro).

NavanJunction1 wrote:

At the risk sounding like someone that plays with Lego, would it not have made sense to put that link in?

You'd imagine so, wouldn't you. It's a land thing. Look at the spencer dock masterplans and you can see they want to build in the gap between the midland line and the tracks running to the docks. It's all being done to suit Treasury Holdings and CIE property and not for the benefit of the public.

Just on the €30m front. Is it 30m or 60m? I've even seen 50m on a consultantancy firms website.

murphaph

mackerski wrote:

Gauge conflict........

Dermot

No, dual gauge track would be quite possible but it's the safety aspect of trams/light metro sharing tracks with heavy rail.

NavanJunction1

Could it not be seen in terms of Metro or a Dart sharing line with heavy rail? Appreciate it is Luas first off though.

I just keep getting this vision of commuter services being dumped in a corner metaphoically, and Spencer Dock being a cheap electoral ploy to win votes at the next election.

Say if the government had said no to the interconnector in T21 - what would the alternatives have been?

murphaph

NavanJunction1 wrote:

Could it not be seen in terms of Metro or a Dart sharing line with heavy rail? Appreciate it is Luas first off though.

No, cos the metro we're getting is low-floor in nature, much like a wide bodied tram. If it was heavy metro it might be at least legally possible and anyway, as you say it's Luas first.

NavanJunction1 wrote:

I just keep getting this vision of commuter services being dumped in a corner metaphoically, and Spencer Dock being a cheap electoral ploy to win votes at the next election.

Personally I think it is a stunt. It could have been so much more to people from Drogheda to Kildare but it's a shadow of that now

NavanJunction1 wrote:

Say if the government had said no to the interconnector in T21 - what would the alternatives have been?

You know, I dread to think. It pretty much all hangs on the interconnector now. Sheriff St provides little in terms of integration.

NavanJunction1

murphaph wrote:

You know, I dread to think. It pretty much all hangs on the interconnector now. Sheriff St provides little in terms of integration.

My mammy told me never to go in to any dark dangerous cul de sacs unless there was definitely some way out..!

Supposing like Navan under T21, the Interconnector was announced only to keep ye guys off the Government's backs in the election run up.

Don't mean to be a cynic, but in my case I saw Navan announced just before the last election in 2001 under Platform for Change, and then dumped after it - all I ask is consider where this will all be if a report is commissioned and Sheriff Street station suddenly become a cul de sac for a generation.

Is it possible too much is flying on this one project?

Victor

Broadstone can easily be widened / deepened to have 3/4 tracks.

Is there a slight dysfunction in having there Luas / rail interface at the Broadstone end (only Broadstone trains served by Luas) rather Broombridge end (all trains served by Luas)?

And sod off the lot of yis. This is my thread.

murphaph

If FF fail to deliver the interconnector they'll lose Lenihan's seat in Dublin West (Blanch & Lucan both affected) as well as whatever TDs they have in Navan/North Kildare and importantly, Louth. The trains are all creaking at the seems. Drogheda can't use Sheriff St. Only way to increase capacity there is divert more and more trains from Maynooth out of Pearse/Connolly and into Sheriff-a highly unpopular move. They themselves have backed themselves into this. They simply must deliver the interconnector now.

murphaph

Victor wrote:

Broadstone can easily be widened / deepened to have 3/4 tracks.

It'd be very expensive to widen as it runs in a trench with houses right up to the retaining walls. It'd also be expensive to double deck it (I assume that's what you meant).

Victor wrote:

Is there a slight dysfunction in having there Luas / rail interface at the Broadstone end (only Broadstone trains served by Luas) rather Broombridge end (all trains served by Luas)?

This is a very valid point. It is in fact better to let the Luas (possibly later metro) up as far as Broombridge to let all train users get the benefit instead of just those terminating at Broadstone.

NavanJunction1

murphaph wrote:

whatever TDs they have in Navan/North Kildare and importantly, Louth. .

Kildare North - already a FF free Zone
Meath West - Forget about it - the Chronicle are an FF paper, and not sure Interconnector needed for Navan trains
Louth - Dermot Aherne - say he's safe

Navan rail gets promised EVERY election by FF and never even been in danger of being delivered until now.

Just think it would be worth considering the world without an interconnector just for a wee while because even though it may well happen I'd bet you E20 here and now it will not be within the deadline given in T21

Just saying, think of a P11 type solution, even to cater for "delays" in the delivery of the IC

Victor

murphaph wrote:

It'd be very expensive to widen as it runs in a trench with houses right up to the retaining walls. It'd also be expensive to double deck it (I assume that's what you meant).

I would have to count, but there isn't that many, because the streets are perpendicular to the railway, you just need to lop of the end house on the terrace.

Also you could run Luas as an upper (surface) deck with only 3 level crossings.

But yes, digging a bigger hole would be an engineering task, but not insurmountable.