British Media: Vendetta against Ryanair

whiskeyman

LiamD wrote:

One thing that puzzles me though, is how he is making a profit.200 seats on a plane at €1 each would surely barely cover the jet fuel for that flight!I know some seats are going to be more, but they're rarely more than €20 or so.The only thing I can think of is the merchandise.Anyone care to shed any light on how they are doing so well?

I think you have to realise not everyone who travels on a Ryanair flights is flexible enough to have planned their trip many weeks in advance and managed to get a 99c deal.
A lot of these flights will be taken by business customers or those who have no other choice, and these flights can go up to, and above, the €100 mark, depending on destination and times.

A lot of the "99c flyers" will be seen a just "bums on seats", and will hopefully be a source of additional income through onboard sales. They will make up a planned percentage before the price starts going up. (depends on route).
The real money comes from the other passengers.

Our man in Havana

Will this show be available online or thru c4's many arms such as E4 or More4?

therecklessone

LiamD wrote:

but as I recall Mr. O'Leary is well known for not just having one, but two of all the major components for each plane on standby in case they need replacing.

Something tells me this is very unlikely, as they won't even keep a spare aircraft around their hubs to cover eventual hiccups caused by delays/tech problems.

Can I ask all of the people so convinced that Ryanair are an unsafe airline to do one thing please. Take all of the FACTS that you are in possession of to support your contentions and present them to the relevant authorities. You have a moral duty to report your concerns, you could save lives if you are to believed.

The Irish Aviation Authority are the licensing authority for Irish registered aircraft, as all Ryanair aircraft are.

Given that Ryanair operate hundreds of flights out of the UK, and through UK airspace, you may find the Civil Aviation Authority in the UK are interested in your claims.

Finally, you may want to contact the relevant European safety body, which in this case would be the European Aviation Safety Agency

Other than that, can you preface any further posts on this thread with a disclaimer explaining that your allegations are unsubstantiated?

Thanks.

TempestSabre

What contentions? The only allegation or claim is that they operate closer to the limits of the regulations without breaking them, and they haven't been found to break regulations yet. Its one of the many reasons they operate more profitably than other airlines. Of course other low cost airlines have followed this example and where possible now operate closer to the limits of the regulations themselves. Faster turnarounds, approaches, departures, more sectors per pilot etc.

Non of this is exactly news. Theres been countless articles in the general media about it and its a tired topic in aviation circles. So I dunno why the fuss. BTW can anyone vote themselves mod?

therecklessone

TempestSabre wrote:

What contentions? The only allegation or claim is that they operate closer to the limits of the regulations without breaking them, and they haven't been found to break regulations yet.

Really?

TempestSabre wrote:

People should look at how they achieve the €1 seats.

BuffyBot wrote:

How do you think they do it?

TempestSabre wrote:

Compromise everything for the sake of profit.

Compromise everything? Or compromise everything up to legal limits. You chose not to mention the second part until page 2 of this thread, if you want to infer that the airline is run in an unsafe manner be my guest. Don't get upset when you're called on it.

TempestSabre wrote:

Regulations? You mean the ones they feel like complying with...;)

Care to explain that? They either comply with regulations or not. If you have FACTS to suggest they do not, then you have a moral duty to report them to the relevant authority. Otherwise, its unsubstantied rumour and nothing more.

TempestSabre wrote:

Non of this is exactly news. Theres been countless articles in the general media about it and its a tired topic in aviation circles. So I dunno why the fuss.

I'm well aware of rhe "tired" topic as you call it, I'm employed in the industry (not a Ryanair employee) and can read PPRUNE just like yourself. If the airline are operating up to legal limits I am moved to borrow a phrase from you: what's the fuss? The limits are safe, are you suggesting otherwise?

TempestSabre wrote:

BTW can anyone vote themselves mod?

I'll take that as a dig at me. I'm not trying to mod this forum, I'm just using my bull**** detector.

TempestSabre

Lets quote someone in the industry... (IALPA's president, Capt. Evan Cullen)

Cullen says: “While not commenting on any particular incident or airline, there is no doubt that the safety margins in Irish aviation have been eroded. The important question is whether we have in place the regulatory oversight system to alert us when the safety margin has been eroded to an unsafe extent.”

therecklessone

TempestSabre wrote:

Lets quote someone in the industry... (IALPA's president, Capt. Evan Cullen)

Cullen says: “While not commenting on any particular incident or airline, there is no doubt that the safety margins in Irish aviation have been eroded. The important question is whether we have in place the regulatory oversight system to alert us when the safety margin has been eroded to an unsafe extent.

Sounds to me like he's commenting on the ability of the IAA to competently oversee aviation regulation in Ireland. Hell, he even says he's not commenting on a particular airline.

Are you trying to suggest that there's nothing to stop Ryanair doing as they please in relation to regulations because the IAA can't enforce their own rules?

BuffyBot

Anyway, considering IALPA's rather fractious relationship with Ryanair, they're hardly a impartial source..

TempestSabre

BuffyBot wrote:

Anyway, considering IALPA's rather fractious relationship with Ryanair, they're hardly a impartial source..

There are no impartial sources in the aviation industry. Everyone has an angle. So no matter who you quote someone will have a problem with it. If its a pilot seeking either seat hes not going to bite the hand that feeds him and similarly no one believes an ex-employee.

The OP was querying was this a "British" vendetta against Ryanair. Well really everyone has some issue or other with Ryanair so its not solely the British. http://www.ryan-be-fair.org/index.htm seems pretty international. The only people who like RyanAir are people who haven't had a problem (yet) and the shareholders.

However it will be interesting to see whats in the program. Not that I've much Confidence in the media these days.

whiskeyman

Watched it and have to say I'll keep on flying Ryanair.
There's nothing there that the rest of the "no-frills" airlines aren't doing.

I found it "tabloid television" reporting at best.

TempestSabre

I was working and missed it. I wasn't expecting much myself.

Sarsfield

whiskeyman wrote:

Watched it and have to say I'll keep on flying Ryanair.
There's nothing there that the rest of the "no-frills" airlines aren't doing.

I found it "tabloid television" reporting at best.

Got to agree there.

They were really clutching at straws. One or two genuine issues highlighted (quite possibly once-off) but mostly complete garbage and misrepresentation.

I've 2 trips booked on Ryanair in the next 6 weeks and I see no reason to change my plans!

This is interesting Latest Ryanair release Basically accusing C4 of lying!

TempestSabre

therecklessone wrote:

..Are you trying to suggest that there's nothing to stop Ryanair doing as they please in relation to regulations because the IAA can't enforce their own rules?

Not really. Though thats an interesting point. The point I was trying to make was that the low cost model in general, not specifically Ryanair does increase the pressure on the system, pilots infrastructure etc. Theres been no real bona fida investigation (and that program seems to have been junk) into how this effects the safety margins. Theres been a lot of pressure on Ryanair to screw up with regard to regulations and they've been very particular about adhering to them. In fairness to Ryanair their their safety record has been pretty good thus far, and they've made a point of rebutting any such alegations with the facts of their safety record. You can't really argue with that. Rather than focusing on Ryanair perhaps more attention should be focused on the regulations, to see if they are still appropriate and the regulating bodies themselves are sufficient.

Lump

I had a rant on www.myspace.com/johnloughman I won't repeat it all here. I think Ryanair well come out well on this one. And where do they get off saying Ryanair is Britain's fastest growing airline?!

John

dahamsta

I just hope the Ryanair defenders aren't one of their planes when it drops out of the sky. It's only a matter of time.

adam

therecklessone

Ken Shabby wrote:

I just hope the Ryanair defenders aren't one of their planes when it drops out of the sky. It's only a matter of time.

adam

Thats right Adam, statistically its only a matter of time before one of their aircraft is involved in a crash.

Thats what you mean, right?

ButtermilkJack

I didn't see it but I heard a guy from Ryanair on TodayFM last night.

Apparantly Dispatches/C4 took a full-page ad in some newspaper showing a picture of a cabin crew member asleep in the staff seat. Only one thing wrong with the picture... it was not one of Ryanairs planes!!:D

It seems the crew member was sitting in a 747 and Ryanair do not operate any 747's (the difference is there are 2 cabin crew seats in one plane and only one in the other).

If this was their best attemp to get an audience the day before the programme, and they had to use a false/doctored photo then I'm afraid that says it all really.

Complete bull**** from start to finish!!

ButtermilkJack

Ha I just read the Ryanair statement about the false photo. Spot on!

My god they must feel like idiots... 5 months of their lives wasted!!

BTW, the programme will be repeated at 3.25am on Wednesday 15th (tomorrow morning!).

BuffyBot

It's only a matter of time.

As it pretty much everything. How many aircraft have the other major airlines lost? Aviation is by is nature a risky business.

PhoenixRising

Here are a few FACTS for you therecklessone:

1) Ryanair pilot declines to fly extra flights after a days duty due to feeling fatigued. Said pilot demoted. Complaint submitted to IAA.

2) Ryanair First Officer refuses to fly further flights with captain she feels is bullying and harassing her. First Officer fired on the spot.

3) The recent 'Ryanair pilot freezes in flight'. Captain suffered a breakdown flying just days after the death of his child. Why did he feel he had to go to work? Wanted to keep his job maybe? Investigation pending from IAA (only having been beaten into action, mind you) and the Italian CAA.

4) Near miss on a go-around in Beauvais recently. Report in the offing.

5) Even more dangerous was this incident in Skavsta. AAIU report here

6) And just last week

The list goes on but my fingers are getting tired. Anyway that program last night only confirmed what everyone in the industry already knows about the way Ryanair operate. No great surprises.

Lump

That last link is in funny words

John

Zombrex

Ryanair have an appauling safety record, which is due to standard pratices in the company, not just bad luck.

Air flight was one of the safest ways of traveling. That is going to change with the more airlines that adopt Ryanairs way of doing business.

We are taking the pass record of safety with air flight and assuming it will still hold true with Ryanair, not realising that Ryanair are stopping all the things that made air flight so safe in the first place, to save costs.

I don't care if my seat is as dirty as a Bus Eireann bus, or if I don't get any food or drink on my flight. I do care if the safety standards are lets slide by the company to make money, which they clearly are, even if you ignore this dispatches program.

The media don't have a vendetta against Ryanair, they have a realisation that safety standards cannot be mentained with Ryanairs current business practices. To sooner the public wake up to this fact the better.

Lump

Have you anything to support this Appauling Safety Record?

John

therecklessone

PhoenixRising wrote:

Here are a few FACTS for you therecklessone:

1) Ryanair pilot declines to fly extra flights after a days duty due to feeling fatigued. Said pilot demoted. Complaint submitted to IAA.

Ryanair's explanation of events is available in Apendix 11 of this document (PDF). If they are to be believed, the pilot only cited fatigue after his duty ended, following a request for a report from him on the incident.

PhoenixRising wrote:

2) Ryanair First Officer refuses to fly further flights with captain she feels is bullying and harassing her. First Officer fired on the spot.

I am aware of this, but not aware of the details. No comment.

PhoenixRising wrote:

3) The recent 'Ryanair pilot freezes in flight'. Captain suffered a breakdown flying just days after the death of his child. Why did he feel he had to go to work? Wanted to keep his job maybe? Investigation pending from IAA (only having been beaten into action, mind you) and the Italian CAA.

Any conclusion from either of us on his decision would be supposition.

PhoenixRising wrote:

4) Near miss on a go-around in Beauvais recently. Report in the offing.

Point being? Near miss for Aer Lingus aircraft. I suppose US ATC is dangerous because of that?

PhoenixRising wrote:

5) Even more dangerous was this incident in Skavsta. AAIU report here

Point being?

PhoenixRising wrote:

6) And just last week

Point being?

The first two points aside, there is nothing to suggest that Ryanair's management culture is a contributory factor in any of the incidents you mention. Supposition is not sufficient. And I'm aware of all of them thanks you very much, like I said earlier, I'm involved in the industry.

My point remains this: if anyone is aware of evidence to support the claim that Ryanair management is responsible for a lapse in safety standards then it is incumbent on them to report their concerns to the relevant authorites. To do otherwise is unprofessional and could possibly be categorised as criminally negligent. That includes Ryanair pilots, engineers, cabin crew and ground crew by the way.

dahamsta

"INSERT AIRLINE HERE does it too, what's the problem?"

I'm surprised people don't get embarassed while using this defense.

adam

mike65

Lump wrote:

. And where do they get off saying Ryanair is Britain's fastest growing airline?!

John

Are you saying they are not? Or are you making a political point?


Mike.

BuffyBot

Ryanair have an appauling safety record, which is due to standard pratices in the company, not just bad luck.

Do enlighten us..

democrates

I presume there are safety standards which either you adhere to or you don't. Find it hard to imagine that an airline with such a big business to protect would wilfully take any risks. Then again the privatised uk rail companies...

Pressure to perform can lead to staff deviating from best practice. We saw that in the banks here, regional management piled on the pressure, some local bank managers engaged in theft to get their figures right for the next regional meeting.

There are thousands of decisions that affect the quality of work, bit by bit corners can be cut, no one change is enough to risk your job raising an official complaint, but over time as they mount up you can end up far from where you should be. Defective o-rings on the shuttles solid rocket boosters, and this from the zero-defects nasa. Of course it was private contractors who failed to test them adequately.

I don't trust any commercial entity to self-regulate because the competitive and greed driven cost-cutting system is a recipe for trouble. The answer is to enforce strict standards if there are genuine concerns about aviation safety.

dahamsta

14 page discussion on PPRuNe. Bear in mind when reading that there are a LOT of people involved in the industry on that site, from both "sides". More hidden agendas than you could shake a stick at. Like many on that forum, I retain the opinion that while many - not all - of the problems are common knowledge, and Ryanair are hardly the only airline responsible, it remains cause for major concern, and that Ryanair are a primary example.

adam

TempestSabre

PPRuNe isn't going to hold any weight here. Thats just a bunch of pilots mouthing off. Unless you can show an official report of an incident from AAIU or AAIB it never happened.