Letter on current tensions between Muslims and Denmark + Norway

Vangelis

Letter on current tensions between Muslims and Denmark + Norway

Dear Muslims

I intend to write a letter to the Islamic Council of Norway entreating them to transmit my message of sympathy and humility to other Muslims in Norway.

With this post I'm starting a project of my own with the purpose to communicate my worries and compassion and hopeful advise to Muslims. I intend to take this far, into newspapers, to other Islamic organizations and so forth.

I must say that so few Norwegians have expressed themselves who don't support the publishing of the caricature of your Prophet Muhammed. I feel an urgent and pressing call to reach out to Muslims whereever I can get in touch with them.

As a Christian and an ethnic Norwegian, residing in Norway, I feel ashamed on behalf of my country. Although, it is unfair that 4,5 million individuals should be held responsible for something that a newspaper with only a minority reader group have done. So far, only the newspapers' proponents have seemed to have their say. I on the other hand am worried about my country, about Muslims in my country and my future.

The reactions from Muslims in the Middle-East and their resentment is frightening. I know that they are capable of attacking my country in unmentionable fashions and I myself wish to avoid any conflicts with Muslims. I'm not a war-mongerer like so many other Europeans(incl. Norwegians and Danes) appear to be at the moment.

I cannot possibly be alone about my viewpoints. I know what it is like to have my faith offended. I experience it almost daily myself. Jokes about Jesus, silly cartoons and caricatures, depictions of my God as a terrorist, imbecile and other things that makes my stomach churn by thinking of it.

But I don't let myself be quailed or harrassed by these insults. I have as a Christian who is used to ridiculing of my faith and my God, developed a rigid immunity to these things and I ignore them. Instead I try not to be upset and I pray for God to preserve my patience, persistence in my faith and love for those who ridicule me. Is it possible for Muslims to do the same? Maybe it will seem cynical to you. With the deepesy humility, I hope someone will consider it.

My God dispises those who strife and cause strife, wars and arguements to occur. He wants me to be meek, gentle, peaceful, patient, not to let myself be filled with hatred and bitterness. Is it possible for Muslims to think the same way?

I have never been so afraid for my country like I am now. I don't hate Muslims and wish that they won't hate me.

There is more I can say and I will write whenever I think of something.

In the meantime, I'll be looking forward to replies.

Yours humbly,
Vangelis

Sand

Dear Lord....

The reactions from Muslims in the Middle-East and their resentment is frightening. I know that they are capable of attacking my country in unmentionable fashions and I myself wish to avoid any conflicts with Muslims. I'm not a war-mongerer like so many other Europeans(incl. Norwegians and Danes) appear to be at the moment.

Thats what it comes down to. Youre scared so you run about posting stuff like this. Tactful not to include your description of the protestors as primitive monkeys. Mightnt go well with the feel good hippy stuff.

LORDOFDOOM

lol @ this.

Wibbs

Tbh, very nice sentiment and all that, but the Muslims who are not rioting and calling a jihad on your arse, know it's not the average Norwegian to blame. The ones who do want to call a jihad on your arse will think you're weak, afraid and decadent and most of the rest of us will think you're a hippy. No offence but do you not think you're over reacting a tad? I agree with Sand. It's a bit of a turnaround to go from "monkeys" to fearful appeasement. That said your need to "feel an urgent and pressing call to reach out to Muslims whereever I can get in touch with them", will probably put off all but the most fervent Jihadist.

Vangelis

Jihad doesn't actually mean 'holy war'. I was told by a kalif.

I'm not afraid anymore, Sand. And you can ridicule me as much as you like. But pride won't do you any good, neither will calling me silly things like a hippy.

I'm not overreacting. I'm reacting before it's too late.

Wibbs

Jihad means struggle. There are many types of Jihad. The one considered by some Muslim scholars as the highest form is the battle fought for Allah. Others particular those of the Sufi traditiont think the opposite and consider the inner struggle the higher. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad#Greater_and_lesser_jihad

That said historically it has come to mean holy war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad#Historical_Islamic_view_of_Jihad

Vangelis wrote:

I'm not overreacting. I'm reacting before it's too late.

No offence, but that does strike me as a little hysterical, especially given your earlier stances on the topic.

Frederico

Vangelis wrote:

Jihad doesn't actually mean 'holy war'. I was told by a kalif.

I'm not afraid anymore, Sand. And you can ridicule me as much as you like. But pride won't do you any good, neither will calling me silly things like a hippy.

I'm not overreacting. I'm reacting before it's too late.

Please put all this on the humour board..

Vangelis

Wise men are hard to find.

magick

I'm not a war-mongerer like so many other Europeans(incl. Norwegians and Danes) appear to be at the moment.

why dont u add the swiss to that whille ur at it :rolleyes:

Please put all this on the humour board..

exactly

Binomate

Eh, where is the punchline?!

Vangelis

I'll quote a very good friend of mine:

"If you can't say anything nice...don't say ANYthing at all."

And: "Just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean it is the right thing to do."

Binomate

Vangelis wrote:

I'll quote a very good friend of mine:

"If you can't say anything nice...don't say ANYthing at all."

And: "Just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean it is the right thing to do."

But you don't have to apologise for having the right to do it.

Sand

I'll quote a very good friend of mine:

"If you can't say anything nice...don't say ANYthing at all."

And: "Just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean it is the right thing to do."

Well, no one short of a mod can stop you using the message board like a diary, but the diary can talk back. Either way, I just find it hard to say whether youre actually respectful of Islam as you claim, or just afraid of it.

BTW, which of the rioting Muslims were you hoping to contact here on Politics?

Vic Mackey

thier was worse cartoons about the irish at the turn of the century in british magazines like 'punch', depicting us as monkeys............

the muslims are overreacting, how can they justify wanting to behead a whole nation or even an individual over this cartoon.

GET OVER IT

Captain Trips

And the response by a small group of Irish, rightly or wrongly depending on your views on the use of violence, was violent and aggressive, and continued to be for decades.

And someone in England says to the Irish people after such cartoons was to "Get over it".

So that's the plan? Get over it?

ronbyrne2005

http://isaacschrodinger.typepad.com/isaacschrodinger/images/muhammed.jpg

i hear some people in the uk are making t-shirts with the above pictures on them.i wouldnt wear one near a mosque!

magick

And someone in England says to the Irish people after such cartoons was to "Get over it".

So that's the plan? Get over it?

ahh how u blur the lines between religion and politics............

zuma

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

http://isaacschrodinger.typepad.com/isaacschrodinger/images/muhammed.jpg

i hear some people in the uk are making t-shirts with the above pictures on them.i wouldnt wear one near a mosque!

I was browseing sites a couple of days ago and found a site with loads of clothes brandishing that cartoon:eek: ...copyright theft???:rolleyes:

SeanW

Captain Trips wrote:

And the response by a small group of Irish, rightly or wrongly depending on your views on the use of violence, was violent and aggressive, and continued to be for decades.

And someone in England says to the Irish people after such cartoons was to "Get over it".

So that's the plan? Get over it?

And I suppose it had little to do with that whole overrated "independence" thing that we kinda wanted a little bit back then?

Ah people, now come on...Now im not trying to take either side but to all these people who are saying that freedom of speech comes before all else, well, its almost incomprehensible to think of one of these newspapers printing a racist or an anti semitic cartoon, no?..i do think that in the current political climate its not very hard to see why the muslims see their faith being under attack...these cartoons..yes, they're cartoons, but to muslims their religion is the most important thing in their life..any depiction of mohammad is seen as blasphemous..freedom of speech is fine but it comes with a certain amount of responsibility..what reaction did ye expect?..yes they may be overreacting, but there's a lot of displeasure towards the west for hundreds of years of what could be seen as abuse..why should they respect our culture if we refuse to respect theirs?

Binomate

Deleted User wrote:

Ah people, now come on...Now im not trying to take either side but to all these people who are saying that freedom of speech comes before all else, well, its almost incomprehensible to think of one of these newspapers printing a racist or an anti semitic cartoon, no?..i do think that in the current political climate its not very hard to see why the muslims see their faith being under attack...these cartoons..yes, they're cartoons, but to muslims their religion is the most important thing in their life..any depiction of mohammad is seen as blasphemous..freedom of speech is fine but it comes with a certain amount of responsibility..what reaction did ye expect?..yes they may be overreacting, but there's a lot of displeasure towards the west for hundreds of years of what could be seen as abuse..why should they respect our culture if we refuse to respect theirs?

With Freedom of Speech and Freedom of expression you are not obliged to remain silent if you have an opinion that may be offensive to someone else. I have the right to say that I believe muhammed was a pedophile for example. It is probably highly offensive to all muslims, but does that mean I shouldn't be entitled to believe or express this opinion! Free speech does not oblige you to respect anyones feelings. Freedom of speech leaves that choice up to the person with the opinion. I just wouldn't work if we were to respect the feelings of others. Nobody would be able to say anything. Muslims just need to tolerate the images.

athena 2000

Vangelis wrote:

Jihad doesn't actually mean 'holy war'. I was told by a kalif.

I'm not afraid anymore, Sand. And you can ridicule me as much as you like. But pride won't do you any good, neither will calling me silly things like a hippy.

I'm not overreacting. I'm reacting before it's too late.

There has been no Caliphate or person holding the title of "Khalif" for over 80 years within Islam. Whomever you spoke with about the term "jihad" could not have been the Khalif. The interpretation of the term "jihad" is varied, and the person you consulted gave you exactly that - a much-discussed interpretation that has symbolism, both literal and figurative.

Freedom brings responsibility, including its blessings and curses - or, if you prefer, consequences. You'll just have to decide how much freedom you can stand before you're willing to lose it. Does that sound paradoxical? It is.

zippo22

Binomate wrote:

With Freedom of Speech and Freedom of expression you are not obliged to remain silent if you have an opinion that may be offensive to someone else. I have the right to say that I believe muhammed was a pedophile for example. It is probably highly offensive to all muslims, but does that mean I shouldn't be entitled to believe or express this opinion! Free speech does not oblige you to respect anyones feelings. Freedom of speech leaves that choice up to the person with the opinion. I just wouldn't work if we were to respect the feelings of others. Nobody would be able to say anything. Muslims just need to tolerate the images.

I got banned from After Hours today for calling you an idiot. As a champion of Free Speech I thought you should know that.

Binomate

Personal abuse isn't covered by freedom of speech. Anyway, take it up in feedback if you feel the mods decission was not justified and stop taking this dead thread off topic.

zippo22

At least you're consistent in your inconsistency. (By the way I did not abuse you. I stated my opinion of you. {an opinion that seemed to be shared by quite a few people in that thread.} And as you preach yourself " Free speech does not oblige you to respect anyones feelings. Freedom of speech leaves that choice up to the person with the opinion. It just wouldn't work if we were to respect the feelings of others. etc, etc. " Those are your own words. My opinion has not changed. In fact you have just reinforced it.

Binomate

zippo22 wrote:

At least you're consistent in your inconsistency. (By the way I did not abuse you. I stated my opinion of you. {an opinion that seemed to be shared by quite a few people in that thread.} And as you preach yourself " Free speech does not oblige you to respect anyones feelings. Freedom of speech leaves that choice up to the person with the opinion. It just wouldn't work if we were to respect the feelings of others. etc, etc. " Those are your own words. My opinion has not changed. In fact you have just reinforced it.

There is a difference between airing an opinion that may be offensive when your intentions are not to offend and airing an opinion that may be offensive when your intentions are to offend. What you posted was the latter. Take it up in feedback.

zippo22

Lol. I rest my case. Goodnight. (By the way I only engaged with you here after twice failing to contact you on your blog.) Anyway take care, and again goodnight.