Costs of geothermal/UFH system

iplogger1

Sorry for asking a lot of questions in various directions on the topic
of geotherm/ground source/ UFH domestic systems but I'm doing a lot
of research now and about to meet someone who has one recently
installed in a few days time.

He told me his system came in around 21k or so. That was a lot
more than I had read about on these forums but then again that
is the cost for the ground source collector & heat pump/tank +
UFH heating system + domestic hot water on demand from this
system and included installation. I think he had to hire a digger
as well and I think this added 1.5k or so to the above price.

I'll get more details from him when I see his system in
the flesh but he did say he priced from various supplier/installers
and they all came in around that for this sort of spec of system.
He also got an electricity meter on the pump so he could monitor
daily pump electricity usage. One quote was a bit lower than
20k but the guy he spoke with didn't inspire confidence so he
went with a guy with 20+ yrs of pump installation experience.

Is this at all in the correct ballpark. I imagine prices vary
tremendously. I had read 8000 Euro or so and an estimated
8 yrs payback on investment based upon current oil prices.

~ipl

yop

Based on a 2100 sq ft house we got below:

UnderFloor:
SUPPLY INSTALL TOTAL

PURE ENERGY YES YES 14212
DUNSTAR YES YES 10532
UNIPIPE YES NO 8237
ROYALLE YES NO 6866
ENERGY MASTER/KELTIC YES YES 7309.4
ENERGY MASTER/KELTIC YES NO 5200
WARM FLOOR YES YES 7262
EUROTECH YES YES 9254.08
MAGMA YES YES 8650
MAGMA YES NO 6411
UNDERFLOORDIRECT YES NO 4400



Geothermal

SUPPLY INSTALL TOTAL
PURE ENERGY YES YES 14017
DUNSTAR YES YES 9596
UNIPIPE YES NO 8237
ROYALLE NO NO
ENERGY MASTER/KELTIC YES YES 9648
ENERGY MASTER/KELTIC YES NO 8591
WARM FLOOR YES YES 12437
EUROTECH YES YES 12342


BOTH TOTALS

PURE ENERGY 28229
DUNSTAR 20128
UNIPIPE 16474
ROYALLE 6866
KELTIC HEATING 16957.4
WARMFLOOR 19834

Give you an idea

I did not have Climate Control there, they put in or D/X Geo system with all plumbing of the system, the 500ltr Rapid Recovery Cylinder and domestic hot water kit for 12800, we went with underfloordirect for the UFH @ 4400. So all in all it cost us 17200 euro.

iplogger1

Yop,

Wow - you certainly did your homework re: lots of quotes.
The reference site I have (friends of my wife's sister) has
the more standard brine or glycol (non D/X) system.

From the little I understand so far the D/X system is the
more new fangled system and requires a smaller ground
collector area. I've read (spin perhaps) that the pipes
for the D/X system are possibly more fragile when laying
them underground and possibly more risk of damage
which could result in later corrosion (sounds like there
might be a grain of truth in that but mostly a scare
spin by the traditional brine suppliers). I've heard the
DX is more efficient (higher C/O or whatever) and
doesn't require a pumping stage for circulation in
the collector.

I think from looking at your quotes I would have to
assume that a non-D/X geotherm + UFH + domestic
hot water extraction + install + trench digging and
filling for collector area on the site would probably
come in around 21k+ or thereabouts.

Have you done any sort of conservative estimates of
possible payback periods based on your 17+k Euro
capital investment plus the running costs of the
pump you are now measuring or anticipating ?

~ipl

yop

You are correct on all points of what you are saying about the DX system. There are scare stories out there but to protect the piping there is 3" of sand below and above the pipes.
As said higher COP, less circulation pumps, less group.
Crucial though that they have experience as it is a refrigrant which is pumped around.
I came up with these calculations on costings for install both Geo + UFH

DUNSTAR+WARMFLOOR 16858
KELTIC+WARMFLOOR 16910

keltic supply ufg, dunstar geo 14796
Underfloor direct supply ufh, dunstar geo 13996


To be truthful I have not put up any totals yet on payback.

They are saying that our running costs for the year for the heatpump will come in between 250 and 300 hundred euro. At present we have the temp running at 20 degrees and it is almost too warm.

We are at present in a 3 bed house with 6 rads on an oil burner, last year we spent 700 euro on oil. So on a completely daft comparison you could say that out 4 bed house, would use roughly 900 euro of oil per year (could be way off the mark there!)
So 900 - 300 = 600 euro.
I would not put the UFH in as part of the capital investment as you are going to have it installed regardless of what heat source u go with.
So 12850 / 600 is 21 years! Seems a bit of a long payback. I will be monitoring all my bills anyway over the next 6 months to a year.

iplogger1

Yop,

What was your take on wood pellet stoves/boilers ?
One anecdote I've heard is that there is some scepticism that the
price being charged for the pellets now is discounted (selling close
to cost) in order to get traction in the market and then prices
will eventually rise to take profits.

However, I wonder if the wood pellets might start to make
economic sense when electricity prices go through roof in
5-6yrs time (due to Kyoto/polluter pays/carbon taxes) ?
I know wood/timber prices have not typically been predictable
and some volatility and risks are there going down that route.

I'm just wondering if you considered wood pellet stove and
why you might have ruled it in or out. Apologies if I asked
you this before. My memory has faded a bit today

~ipl

beolight

@ yop

just trying to figure out what you have posted above

excuse my ignorance

to clarify which company did you use and what exactly did you get installed for that price?

also in your first post you have put YES YES after some companies and YES no etc what are you referring to here

once again you have provided excellent reference point for all others considering these options

yop

No problem, again I agree with your points on the pellet stoves, I think they are waiting like with ever thing else in Ireland to lure us in then hit us!! Maybe I am just to sceptical!!!

IF I was to do it all again, I would definately have considered the pellet stove, I had made the decision at the beginning of last year and had not looked at them much but think now that with the auto feed option they could be a great job.

The bore hole geo would have been a great option too I think but to be honest could not find a good supplier here in Ireland

CJhaughey

Interesting thread over on green issues dealing with heatpumps etc.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054887937

yop

Beolight - I apologise for not been clearer!!!

I have this in excel so it was a cut and paste!!

I have the Supply and an Install header, the first YES is to state that they will do a supply only option and the 2nd YES or NO states if they will or will not Install also!!

In the end I went with UnderFloor direct for the UFH, supply only, I installed myself.
For the GEO I went with Climate Control in Tuam, Galway. They supplied the heatpump, rapid recovery cylinder (500litre), dometic hotwater kit and all associated plumbing to link up with the mainfolds for the UFH and dometic hot water.
These guys have an external temperature gauge also which auto adjusts the temp on the heatpump which is handy. At present we are on a pre-programmed Screed Drying program which will take the temp up to 21 degrees over a 6 day period

yop

CJ - Excellent points he has made about the pre-planning involved, I was lucky & poxy to have had it all planned out!

iplogger1

Yop,

Some real basics here but could you explain a little about the laying of
the screed mixture. Is this something which the concrete floor laying
folks involved in the building of the house typically do after the guys
from the UFH install have left ? Are there risks of damaging the ufh
heat pipes or is it a very standard building step which doesn't require
supervision by the UFH folks?

What is the purpose of the screed ? I assume it is for thermal
insulation and encasing of the UFH pipes as a flat substrate before
the final floor coverings (eg, solid, semi-solid, engineered wood,
laminate or tiling) are added at the surface of the floor.

~ipl

Wobs

Hey Yop,

Like yourself I decided to go with Climate Control and the dx system. How's it going for you so far?

Just recently though they have also offered me the bore hole option, did you look into this with them and if so what didi you think?

yop

Nope never offered it Wobs, shame I would have gone with it, I have this fear with pipes buried in the ground. But we have it well marked out and is should never be an issue.

It is up and running now since Tuesday. Great belt of heat in the house but we have over 210 rolls of rockwool in the house so this helps too I am sure!!

Wobs

Yeah it sounds good but just have to factor in the cost of boring 2 more wells which is bit of an unknown until its actually done.

Also the well driller tells me you can't be guaranteed the second well will actually take the water back from the first, so it may turn out to be a costly mistake.

Eve1

Wobs wrote:

Yeah it sounds good but just have to factor in the cost of boring 2 more wells which is bit of an unknown until its actually done.

Also the well driller tells me you can't be guaranteed the second well will actually take the water back from the first, so it may turn out to be a costly mistake.

We were considering drilling as we have very thin soil coverage but I got a bit freaked at the cost of drilling the well. It could cost up to 4.5K that is alot of money even though I know that the pump would cost less. We are still thinking about it though so that we can plant more trees on the site.

yop

iplogger1 wrote:

Yop,
Some real basics here but could you explain a little about the laying of
the screed mixture. Is this something which the concrete floor laying
folks involved in the building of the house typically do after the guys
from the UFH install have left ? Are there risks of damaging the ufh
heat pipes or is it a very standard building step which doesn't require
supervision by the UFH folks?

What is the purpose of the screed ? I assume it is for thermal
insulation and encasing of the UFH pipes as a flat substrate before
the final floor coverings (eg, solid, semi-solid, engineered wood,
laminate or tiling) are added at the surface of the floor.

~ipl

Okily - The screed is poured once the UFH has been laid, we put planks over the pipes to protect them when we were wheeling in the screed.
The screed for the UFH acts as a storage heater, the thicker it is the slower to heat the slower to cool, the slower response for a temp change in the room, upstairs I went with a the minimum of 25mm of screed as I wanted a rapid response as the upstairs in a dormer are generally warm,
I would presume that even if you don't have UFH that the screed is used to protect your service pipes and to act as a barrier from damp etc.

Tobi2

Hi
I was just about to direct to that post on Green Issues too.
Anyone considering heat pump etc should read as I think at the end of the day you pay for everything..
Ie aside from cost of heatpump and pipe laying etc, don't forget to factor in cost of electrician, groundworks/diggers/landscaping etc, etc, etc, plus the fact that all these trades have to co-ordinate and work together and each has to know what the other is doing/what the whole thing is about.
It is only now all this is dawning on me..:o :rolleyes:
Thank goodness my Dad is a genius and Hubby a dreamer!


Can I ask re bore holes, is it possible to get a test done and if so how much does that cost?
We looked into this and the company that would have done the bore hole digging would not even come to drill for a test as he said it would be a waste of our money. They had prior knowledge of the area, there is a huge quarry not far from where we live and the ground is stony stony stony once you go deep down. They had bored previously for the quarry company I think?

Tobi