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Irish Sports Council Carding Grants 2006
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10-02-2006 1:16pmFrom the Irish Sports Council website:
IRISH SPORTS COUNCIL ANNOUNCES €6.17 MILLION IN HIGH PERFORMANCE GRANTS FOR 2006
- €1.92 million to athletes and teams under the 2006 International Carding Scheme
- €4.25 million to support the performance plans of fifteen “focus” sports
“Today’s announcement is part of the Government’s substantial investment in every aspect of sport in Ireland which will be €154 million in 2006. The Irish Sports Council is implementing the recommendations of the Athens Review and is backing up its actions with considerable financial resources. An investment of €6.17 million is substantial by any standard and is focused on supporting potential that can produce long-term sustainable success.” - Minister O’Donoghue
The Irish Sports Council today (February 6, 2006) unveiled a comprehensive package of investment into elite sport worth €6.17 million.
Eighteen sports will benefit under the 2006 International Carding Scheme, which has been changed following consultation with governing bodies. Based on agreed criteria eighty senior athletes will receive support under the 2006 Scheme.
Twenty athletes qualify as World Class with a further eight podium-potential athletes being placed on contract by the Irish Sports Council. ... One hundred and fifty five (155) young athletes qualify for support in the Junior and Developmental categories. In addition team sports are included for the first time with the Cerebral Palsy soccer squad and three of the international hockey squads meeting the criteria for support in 2006.
Another significant change to the 2006 Scheme is the inclusion of a Performance Incentive Payment, which will trigger additional payments should athletes meet agreed targets in each year.
The “focus” high performance sports receive €4.25 million in funding to support performance plans. These plans, prepared and implemented by the sports, set out information on training and competition plans, supports required and targets to be met.
Investment in junior and developmental categories has increased by 36% over 2005, rising to €583,000. The number for athletes has gone from 266 to 235 plus four squads from team sports. The overall money or Carding is currently at a level similar to the 2005 outturn with the increased investment focused on supporting the Performance Plans with an additional €650,000.
As was signalled for some time the International Carding Scheme has been changed. The governing body remains central to the entire system, with criteria reviewed and agreed with each sport. All applications for Carding support are agreed between the athletes and sports in advance of being sent to the Council for consideration, thus ensuring consistency and integration with the Performance Plans.
New aspects of the scheme include contracts for the athletes with the potential to achieve a podium finish at the Olympic and Paralympic Games, the introduction of team sports, direct debit payments to athletes and Performance Incentive Payments. All criteria were reviewed with each sport.
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The Irish Sports Council signed off on the proposal for the establishment of an Irish Institute of Sport on February 7 which will now be submitted to the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism for Government approval.
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The Performance Plans prepared by the sports include specific targets to be met by each athlete. It also identifies the milestone championships in each year. Some of the key events in 2006 are the World Rowing Championships, Eton, England, September, the PCI World Track and Field Championships, Holland, September, the European Athletics Championships, Gothenburg, August, the European Boxing Championships, Plovdiv, Bulgaria, July, the PCI World Swimming Championships, South Africa, December, and the World Cup Hockey Qualifiers (Men, China, April, Women, Rome, April.
Today’s announcement complements the €7.63 million in grants announced for the 57 national governing bodies of sport in January. The Council budget for 2006 is €40.9 million.
Here is the spreadsheet with the detailed carding allocations (who got what, in other words).
And not one single shooter on the list. Down from a World-class-2 athlete (Nick Flood), several Junior athletes (the air rifle squad trained by Wilkinstown) and several World-class and International-class athletes from the ICPSA olympic shooters; total grant amount heading for the €100,000 mark at a rapid pace. Perhaps here would be a good place for those who met with the ISC (especially from the NRPAI) regarding the reform of the carding grants to explain what happened?0
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Any feedback on what went wrong, perhaps the associations are going to divey up the money themselves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!0
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les45 wrote:Any feedback on what went wrong, perhaps the associations are going to divey up the money themselves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The associations don't actually have that option les, as the money is meant to go direct to the athletes, bypassing the NGBs. Not sure of the ICPSA story, but I did say a few months ago that this was a very likely outcome of the opposition to the carding grant reform shown by the NRPAI. We could have had a more equitable and workable grant scheme to promote competitive shooting in all disciplines, both ISSF and otherwise; now we have no-one getting carding grants, a still-unfair grants scheme which acts as a reward scheme for winning a medal rather than a support scheme to let those with potential work towards winning one, and noone that shoots non-olympic disciplines (which includes a lot of ISSF disciplines like 300m, center-fire pistol, standard pistol and a few others, by the way) being even considered for funding. And all we're left able to do is sit around going "I told you so"
Fecking depressing state of affairs, if you ask me.0 -
How many people does this affect?0
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It affects anyone who was looking to seriously compete in target shooting rather than shooting as a hobby, civdef. It also impacts on the sport as a whole; without shooters winning medals internationally, we can't point to them for PR work. We also cease to be of any real interest to the ISC as they do not fund sport, they invest in it; and medals are one of the returns sought on that investment. It may not look like it affects someone who wanders to the range on a sunday for an hour if he has the time and it's a nice day; but it does.
On a purely monetary scale, last year saw around €60,000 given to three senior shooters (Derek Burnett, David Malone and Nick Flood) and a squad of ICPSA junior shooters. Previous years have seen far more people receiving similar levels of funding - the air rifle juniors in WTSC, several more shotgun shooters, and so on.0 -
How much of the decision is down to the success rate (or lack of it, if thats's the case) of people who previously obtained grants?
The decision to award no grants at all to shooters can hardly due purely to organisational politics?
Spot the shooter living in total ignorance of sports council issues.0 -
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It seems strange that a number of world class shooters ( Derek ,Nick etc) are simply left out. Derek in my mind had perhaps the best result in the last Olympics , what has gone wrong !0
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civdef wrote:How much of the decision is down to the success rate (or lack of it, if thats's the case) of people who previously obtained grants?The decision to award no grants at all to shooters can hardly due purely to organisational politics?
Spot the shooter living in total ignorance of sports council issues.
In this case, the ISC had undertaken a review of the Carding grant scheme as an outcome of the Athens review; for the NRPAI to stand up and say "no, we'll oppose this" when the best interests of shooters was to reform the system - well, if I'd been in the ISC, I'd definitely have been looking at the NRPAI as being a poor investment prospect.0 -
Sparks wrote:I don't know enough of what's going on in the ICSPA to comment on the decision regarding their shooters; but with regard to those on the NRPAI side of the house, yes, it can. The ISC can decide that the NGB (or in this case, umbrella body of NGBs) is just (to use the technical term) arsing about and has no hope of producing medals in the long run, and just cut off funding. It was done to the NRPAI before when they were told they were ineligible for challange funding (funding for specific projects, as opposed to funding for administrative costs) because they had no strategic plan for the sport.0
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rrpc wrote:That might be true, except for the omission of the ICPSA as well. They have been getting really good results lately, and were mentioned in the Athens Review as well, so I am really scratching my head over that one.With the NTSA/NRPAI, well we haven't been getting the resultsso a lot of stuff has to be put in place first before we can start applying for carding grants with any hope of success.
*looks at bank balance after only a short Bisley trip*
Much harder.
Besides, no-one seems to be really training for this level these days outside of a handful in air rifle. I'm coming to believe that the crap at head office level is just putting people off the whole idea - why train your guts out for months on end, invest huge amounts of time and money, sacrifice swathes of your social life and family life, only to have a bunch of people you don't know and barely ever saw, sit down and decide if they want to send you off or not? And even if you go for that, who'll coach you? Where will you train?
Bleh.
This is one of the reasons we need to get that administrivia structure sorted out so that it's exactly that - administration. Not governance in the bad-old-days sense of the word, but administration in the "track scores, list competitions and rules, do grant applications and so on" sense.0 -
Sparks wrote:I think that's down to a seperate problem entirely, within the ICPSA.Except with the Juniors...And yet, if you don't have the carding grants set up to catch those with promise as they try to work at it, it gets much harder for them.*looks at bank balance after only a short Bisley trip* Much harder.Besides, no-one seems to be really training for this level these days outside of a handful in air rifle. I'm coming to believe that the crap at head office level is just putting people off the whole idea - why train your guts out for months on end, invest huge amounts of time and money, sacrifice swathes of your social life and family life, only to have a bunch of people you don't know and barely ever saw, sit down and decide if they want to send you off or not? And even if you go for that, who'll coach you? Where will you train? Bleh.This is one of the reasons we need to get that administrivia structure sorted out so that it's exactly that - administration. Not governance in the bad-old-days sense of the word, but administration in the "track scores, list competitions and rules, do grant applications and so on" sense.0
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rrpc wrote:I know you're justifiably proud of the results the Juniors are getting, but they still have a way to go to achieving World Cup medals, and unfortunately, that's the currency that the ISC has come to expect for their money.I agree, but as you've said yourself on many occaisions, the system is a catch-22Agreed again, but this is what we as clubs should be doing all the time, and finding the funds to do it.Bleh yourself!. All sports require individual sacrifice and investment.
I'm trying to point out that you could put in a proper training effort, only to find yourself passed over because of the decision of people you don't ever see - which is a complete antithesis to the whole ethos of the sport.Target Shooting is a (relatively) expensive sport, and we as clubs need to start investing in kit and caboodle to get people started.Head Office needs to provide the coaching support, and that appears to be their intention this year, but the roots of the sport need to grow first, so that there is actually competition for places.
That way, it's a target shooting competition, not a who's-our-bestest-mates competition.Competition scores in .22 have been dropping gradually over the last number of years, and my belief is that this is caused by lack of competition. Richards 590 last week in Rathdrum, is the first 590 scored there since March 2000 FFS.You need something to administer first:DBack in 2000, there was good competition for the top places, and scores went up. Same administrative structures in place, but we had a 595 in Rathdrum during that period. Now we have lost people out of the sport, and scores have gone down.Look at what you have achieved in Wilkinstown, simply because you have a lot of people interested and competing amongst themselves.I'm actually disappointed with the college clubs, for not providing more competition at that level.There's something head office could be doing, but you need to have the other 90% of your job squared away before you can do that part
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Sparks wrote:I don't know that they have that far to go, to be honest. With PBs like 397/400, I'd say they were only in need of experience.Yes, but I was saying it in the context of "this needs to change"All clubs should definitely be doing it, but they can't realistically do it all the time, or even often enough to let someone train at International level. A match like this weekend is a twice-a-year thing at best.I'm trying to point out that you could put in a proper training effort, only to find yourself passed over because of the decision of people you don't ever see - which is a complete antithesis to the whole ethos of the sport.How can there be competition for places when those places are awarded by a committee behind closed doors with no open competition for them, and when they're announced at most a month in advance?For the major competitions, you need a year's run-up of training or more - the Olympics is a 6-year training cycle, but our last Irish shooter got less than a few week's warning he was going.What's needed is an open competition for places that are announced months in advance.That way, it's a target shooting competition, not a who's-our-bestest-mates competition.Agreed. But look to up north if you want competition. Is it expensive to do postals? or shoulder-to-shoulder in comber or downshire or EARC? Not as much as going to Bisley in August, that's for certain!And when you've beaten everyone up north, look to the UK.No, you don't. You need to set up a set of procedures and do them when they're needed, that's it. It doesn't need this continual fire-fighting crap of "Oh, we got an invite for such-and-such a competition, we'd better send someone, who can go? Right, now go redo the budget to allow for that" that we saw for years. It's just making more work!So where are the juniors in RRPC?But we don't (compete amongst ourselves). We train for international competition, not domestic. That's the key. A wider field of competition, with better shooters than yourself to test yourself against. Otherwise, it becomes a hobby and people drop out quickly.Who's there to compete against?DURC train, and the squad are getting good resultsBut where's the training in UCD? Where's the squad? Who's coaching?And it's bloody hard to get other colleges to take up shooting. So far we've had no success in that regard
There's something head office could be doing, but you need to have the other 90% of your job squared away before you can do that part
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rrpc wrote:That's pretty good, but still not World Cup standard. You need to be getting PB's of 400/400 to have a chance of getting to a final in a world cup seeing as the competitive pressure always drops your scores.Do you think the ISC will listen?Then you do it twice a year.
For an individual, looking to go to a World Cup with a chance of a good performance, it's far, far, far, far too little international experience.I thought that the winner of the last Air Rifle nationals was sent to a World Cup, did somebody else go?That was because we got a wildcard, nobody knew in advance.We already have that, they're called registered shoots.Correct, see aboveBut if we have the shooters here, why not compete here.Do you hold open competitions in Wilkinstown, and how often? Start here first, and then do the travelling.Stop harping back to the past, it's tiresome.We need to stop spending money sending unprepared people away, and instead spend it on preparing them first.Right now, we do not have anyone that we should be sending to World Cups, and even if we had one, it would not be enough. We need at least five or six people regularly competing for places before we should even look to international competitions. It's been nothing short of embarrassing looking at some of the scores acheived at World Cup events.We don't do postals any more, for reasons I've discussed with you previously.I disagree fundamentally with that reasoning. The competition starts with the guy shooting beside you, and builds up to a higher level. But it's your clubmates that you shoot against the most often, and it's that which will drive you to train more and achieve higher scores. All sports work on that principle, with the best going forward to international level.That's my point, we need more here and now to provide the competition to drive all our shooters forward.Really?, the highest DURC score at the last competition was a good 583 followed by a 558.
BTW, that's a 583 with less than a full year's training. And the 558 was from a Rathdrum/DURC shooter. And the 550 below that was from a DURC shooter who first picked up a firearm in october last year. That's not a bad result.Good question. I would have thought that such a drive would have to come from the student body itself, isn't that how DURC and UCD started?0 -
Sparks wrote:Not so true. This is part of the whole mental game thing - understand, I'm not saying that that isn't what happens now, I'm saying that this is something we talk ourselves into believing. Don't forget, ten years ago, you couldn't train someone to shoot a 540 inside of six months. It wasn't possible. Not because it wasn't possible, but because we'd trained ourselves to believe that.I think that they were asking for people to come into them and present how the NGBs wanted to see the carding grant system changed. I also think that the whole point of the carding grant system is to be a support mechanism, not a reward mechanism.For a club, sending a club team, that's excellent and should be done.
For an individual, looking to go to a World Cup with a chance of a good performance, it's far, far, far, far too little international experience.The winner of the last air rifle nationals wasn't sent. And we have never sent anyone for winning the last air rifle nationals. At least, we haven't done so in the sense of announcing it ahead of time and following through; instead there's been the "I've heard of him/her lately, they must be good" principle at play.It wasn't because of the wildcard, it was because everyone expected the first choice of person to accept the place, and when he turned it down, there was a fair bit of double-takes and delays before Alan got the nod. By which time he couldn't even ship his batch-tested ammo home for the flight to Sydney.Not any more we don't - now all shoots are registered shoots.and let there be a fair, open competition. That's not what the registered shoots do.Not correct, see above.Because we don't have the shooters here, they're elsewhere and until you're as good as they are, they won't come to you.Doesn't work. It's not what we do, it is what you do and you've said yourself how that's working out.And the money that would have gone into those teams needs to be funnelled into the clubs for training instead.I don't know if that's a good thing. They seem to be the only kind of match we can get a lot of the college students to enter easily enough, because of the lack of logistics needed.Sure, if you have a wide enough pyramid at the base. We don't. So we instead look to get a leg-up before we start competing against others by training instead of practising and looking at international matches as being the real matches and other domestic matches as being not much more than exercises. I mean, look where WTSC is - they go to Bisley so they can't go to the UCD Open, and so the UCD Open can't run as it can't cover its costs. When you're in that position, who the hell is there to compete against? You have to look further afield!But you won't get good shooters here and now; you'll get novices.If you want the top end to go up, you have to have the top shooters competeing in a wider field than just the twenty or so top shooters on this island!BTW, that's a 583 with less than a full year's training.Not quite. You did have students looking to start the club - three of them in DURC, and not much more in UCD. You also had strong statements of support from outside clubs and bodies0 -
rrpc wrote:Well obviously I'm the exception soAnd I think that that was a political decisionResults first, international experience secondWell that's not strictly true, we sent one person to compete in a number of events, which is what has been happening for a number of years now. And that person was the National Prone and 3P champion, as well as having the highest mens score in the National Air Rifle Comp.What's wrong with that?I don't follow your logic. They are open competitions, it's a level playing field and everyone has a chanceSelection is undertaken by the Selection Committee
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Qualification does not guarantee selection.That's my point. It's up to us to get the people into the sport, to provide the pyramid to push people to the top. Anything else is artificial and will fail. We brought people from the North into the equation, and they competed well, but there was absolutely no knock-on effect for shooting in the rest of the country. If anything, it became worse.Yes, but that's because the emphasis has been external for too long. We haven't genuinely tried with any degree of consistency to bring up the standard at home.Substitute coaching for training and I'll agree. But training and coaching are not substitutes for competition, and that's why I am saying that you need to have regular home competitions to hone the edge of the training and to provide regular benchmarks. PB's are good in themselves, but if you are not matching them in competition, something's wrong.Yes, but why do we have to import postals?, just something else we can't do for ourselves?Read that paragraph again Sparks and see how wrong it sounds!!! We don't have a big enough base, so instead of helping to develop one, we boycott a home competition to go to a foreign one, and then moan about the lack of competition at home???And domestic matches being just excercises Ask some of your foreign counterparts how many domestic competitions they attend. Some of the English shooters I've spoken to, are constantly taking part in competitions; Either postals or away matches or whatever.
[quore]Of course you won't, but how are you going to develop shooting without bringing in novices and training them.[/quote]
You can't; you have to do both!I can't believe you're saying this! You said it yourself, the best you can hope for is to send your shooters away maybe twice or three times a year.So that just contradicts your previous argumentSo what you need is some crosstalk between the student bodies to get the ball rollling in other universities without clubs.0 -
Sparks wrote:It's not quite that binary - you start sending someone to international club-level matches like Bisley long before they would be up for competition in a World Cup because otherwise, their first international would be a WC and it could destroy them, mentally.
[HAIRSPLITTING]But he wasn't the National Air Rifle champion and he wasn't sent because of winning the championships.[/HAIRSPLITTING]Nothing's wrong with it, rrpc, it's what we suggested months ago. Now we just need to pick one shoot per club that gets financial support from head office, and we'll have what was put forward and rejected at the AGM...I think you have to have both though; one feeds off the other. Too much in the bottom of the pyramid, and you get a lot of plinkers and no competition; too much in the top and you get stagnation and too few people and a good ol'boys atmosphere.Thing is, everyone has to do that, not just one club or two.True - but then, when we had the girl juniors shooting the ladies' 40-shot match, we were just excluded from competition, so we need to change that before we can use competitions properly. Set the class scores to the 40-shot match instead of the 60-shot, for example. There are other things, but you get the idea - a competition on it's own isn't the answer.Because we don't have the competition in Ireland; the postals are just a way to bring that competition to us without having to leave the country physically.Boycott? There was no boycott. Bisley was planned and announced months before the NTSA calendar was announced, and the UCD Open was originally on the calendar for Feb 12 and we were going as the last check before Bisley; and then it was bumped forward a week in the next version of the calendar and we couldn't go, and then it was cancelled.Yes, but with higher scores than here. Look on the wall in UCD at the last year's shoots. All the top three shooters rotate between four or five people, but the scores are all the same - mid to high 70s, an occasional (as in, two in the last year) low 580. We need higher levels of competition.You can't; you have to do both!That's not what I said. I said that two big away trips per year is all a club can expect to do; not that individuals couldn't go away on much smaller trips. I'm talking about nearly 30 people on a four-day trip to Bisley, not a shooter and his coach going to Intershoot.Are you comparing 583 in prone with 540 in air rifle?And support from gun dealers and clubs and administrative bodies outside the colleges.0 -
rrpc wrote:Agreed, but the point is valid nonetheless[HAIRSPLITTING]But he wasn't the National Air Rifle champion and he wasn't sent because of winning the championships.[/HAIRSPLITTING]
That's the whole point of this - we're in a sport where a judge's decision has no bearing on the result that comes back from the target line (apart from catching cheating, of course). It's all down to what the shooter does, how good he or she is. But the selection criteria is nothing like that; it's about how well the shooter is thought of by others.I don't agree, competitions should be self financing.Don't denigrate the plinkers. Some of them can improve, some don't want to, some haven't the time, but the cream will rise to the top.Back when competitions had entires in the thirties, the competition at the top was intense.So let's set an example and support each other
But there has to be an effort from both sides!I was talking about postalsThat's not what your post suggestedHence more competitorsBut you did not seem to be saying that.More power to them if they can, but I'd like to see them going with some prospect of a result, and not wasting everyones time and money.So lets see them putting in WC final winning scores in home competitions first
You can't just send people to UCD every other weekend until 590s magicly appear, nor can you throw in a high-level coach like Barry once a month for six hours and hope it'll magicly make everything all better. We need club-level coaches who have that dream of seeing their shooter on a podium in a World Championships and who's cracked enough to push every moment of their waking lives towards that goal; and we need shooters cracked enough to commit to that dream and put in as much or more time into it as well.
We're rather short on both of those!Would they not be relatively the same?But they have to get up on their hind legs first. If the demand does not come internally what chance of success will it have?0 -
I'm not going to quote you, as I've actually lost the thread a couple of times reading your quotes and wondering what you were quoting and what it was I said that you quoted that I replied to that you quoted. And if that's my experience, pity anyone else trying to follow this.
Essentially your argument boils down to this:
Selection for internationals should be done only on the basis of results of certain qualifying competitions (not specified) but not restricted exclusively to registered shoots. No final decision should be made outside these criteria by any committee or person.
Needless to say, I don't agree: Registered or home shoots should only be considered, as any other shoot would by definition exclude those not being able to participate either for financial or logistical reasons. Scores in external shoots could be considered only as a means of seperating two equally qualified competitors where such an exclusion has to be made for reasons of cost or logistics. There are obvious reasons for this. A score in an external competition may have been achieved under highly favourable conditions, which could not have been replicated at home.
To put it succinctly, it would not be a level playing field for all potential competitors. To put it another way, a financially well-off club, could influence selection by subsidising their best shooters to attend external competitions. Other less well-off clubs could quite rightly scream blue murder at this 'chequebook' qualification. As it is, there is enough grumbling from people who maintain that the wind got up later in the day when they were shooting their details.
As for selection committees, the above scenarion quite succinctly shows why there is a need for them. But the main reason, is the fact that there is not much money available for external shoots and the criteria has always been to try and send people who are multi-disciplinary in order to get the most bang for your buck. I personally don't think that we should be sending anyone at all to World Cups until we have sufficient competitors of a high enough standard to constitute a squad, and before we send them to a World Cup, they should be sent to some of the lower ranking competitions to give them the requisite experience.
The minimum numbers for the squad should be at least two for each discipline, with another two reserves for each as well. Positions would be interchangeable depending on performance, but the squad should remain largely intact with few changes from year to year. This is one of the main reasons why a selection committee is important, because if you went solely by raw scores, the squad could be damaged by frequent changes.
To get to that stage however will require an awful lot of work to bring up the numbers to the required level. I laughed when you said we should be aiming for 100 active shooters, when we find it hard to get 20. If we don't set realistic goals we are setting ourselves up for failure. In the good ol' days(tm) when we had 30 or more entries to competitions, there was a field of over 50 shooters available. That's a more realistic goal, and should be achievable in the short to medium term, if we put our backs into it. Then we can look at doubling that figure. At present Rathdrum has just over 30 members of which less than half are target shooters (NTSA). Realistically, we can't expect to attract more members without some spending on infrastructure, which is what we are focussed on for the coming year. Then we'll see....
That's my tuppenny hapenny worth, bash away.....:p0 -
rrpc wrote:And if that's my experience, pity anyone else trying to follow this.Selection for internationals should be done only on the basis of results of certain qualifying competitions (not specified) but not restricted exclusively to registered shoots. No final decision should be made outside these criteria by any committee or person.
World Cup in Munich this year in May. (It's way too late to do this for this year's WC for real, but you've until December this year to do it for the 2007 Munich WC, so it's not a bad example). Start date is May 22. Decide (a year in advance) to send X number of shooters (let's say one in AR60, one in AR40, one in 3x40 and one in SP for example). Give the shooters two weeks for final preperation for the match (ie, resting up and so on rather than training hard to qualify); that takes you back to May 8. Give yourself a week for announcing the decision as to who's going. That takes you back to May 1. Now, over the preceeding 6-8 weeks make sure that there are at least three matches in each discipline on the calendar or run to acceptable standards somewhere outside the country. If you have to have non-competition shoots to ensure this, then run them, spaced at least a fortnight apart. That takes you back to around the start of March. Now, you list all this out up to a year ahead of time (that bit's easy, the calendars are published years in advance at this level). All you have to have ready by the start of March is a list of competitions over the next 6-8 weeks where a score shot will count towards the selection competition. You still have selection criteria; take the average over the last three shoots in that period for any shooter applying to go. If their average is below the MQS, they're not eligible to go. If you have more applying shooters than places, then the shooter with the highest average goes (or top two or three, depending on how many team places there are).
The advantages of this system are that:- Noone feels (as I and many others do now) that there's no point in training to go international because a small group of people who have nothing to do with your training or progress can decide to veto your entry without cause being given;
- The best shooters go to represent us internationally, chosen in fair and open competition;
- Budgeting for the year can have a far more sane approach to planning, as the NTSA treasurer has been asking for for years;
- Shooters can organise training plans around competitions months in advance and have a real chance at taking medals, as opposed to being asked if they want to go with only a month or less to spare;
- Shooters have far more flexibility in their training plans to cope with work, college and other such factors;
- If no shooters make the grade, noone is tempted to say "well, we have to enter somebody" which has had bad results in the past.
The downside is that you'd have to spend time drafting out all of this months in advance; but that amount of time shouldn't be more than a few hours per major competition, and face it - if you don't have that amount of time to devote to organising a World Cup entry, then you shouldn't be volunteering for the NGB anyways. Besides, we're not talking weeks of work here - you're looking at two or three hours with a few calendars and a refill pad to roughly organise an entire year's shooting. That is what the selection committee ought to be doing - setting out the criteria for selection and the competitions to try to meet them at; not picking out shooters who may not be training at all and giving them a week or two's notice that they're going abroad (which has happened quite regularly over the past decade).Needless to say, I don't agree: Registered or home shoots should only be considered, as any other shoot would by definition exclude those not being able to participate either for financial or logistical reasons.To put it succinctly, it would not be a level playing field for all potential competitors. To put it another way, a financially well-off club, could influence selection by subsidising their best shooters to attend external competitions. Other less well-off clubs could quite rightly scream blue murder at this 'chequebook' qualification. As it is, there is enough grumbling from people who maintain that the wind got up later in the day when they were shooting their details.As for selection committees, the above scenarion quite succinctly shows why there is a need for them.I personally don't think that we should be sending anyone at all to World Cups until we have sufficient competitors of a high enough standard to constitute a squad, and before we send them to a World Cup, they should be sent to some of the lower ranking competitions to give them the requisite experience.The minimum numbers for the squad should be at least two for each discipline, with another two reserves for each as well. Positions would be interchangeable depending on performance, but the squad should remain largely intact with few changes from year to year. This is one of the main reasons why a selection committee is important, because if you went solely by raw scores, the squad could be damaged by frequent changes.To get to that stage however will require an awful lot of work to bring up the numbers to the required level. I laughed when you said we should be aiming for 100 active shooters, when we find it hard to get 20.
Want to see the medals we've taken home from Bisley since?If we don't set realistic goals we are setting ourselves up for failure.In the good ol' days(tm) when we had 30 or more entries to competitions, there was a field of over 50 shooters available. That's a more realistic goal, and should be achievable in the short to medium term, if we put our backs into it. Then we can look at doubling that figure. At present Rathdrum has just over 30 members of which less than half are target shooters (NTSA). Realistically, we can't expect to attract more members without some spending on infrastructure, which is what we are focussed on for the coming year. Then we'll see....
That's my tuppenny hapenny worth, bash away.....:p0 -
I will continue to not quote you in the interests of clarity
I won't argue with the detail of your proposition, as it largely agrees with what I was suggesting with the exception of the overseas shooters, a subject that I discussed with you previously, and with which I fundamentally disagree. For those not cogniscent with that argument, my position is that it is more cost effective to ship a smaller number than a larger number, and in the interest of fairness, selection should be done on the basis of shoots here. Many overseas athletes who represent Ireland and live abroad frequently travel home for national meets, on the other hand, National meets are never held abroad. I know that's a simplification of the situation, as results in overseas meets are taken into account for national qualification, but in those circumstances it's a much more level playing field, as the facilities are by and large relatively similar, and times achieved at (for example) track meets are influenced by a number of other factors besides available facilities.
Your point regarding the NSRA Air Rifle Range is well made, but you could have also said that in Bisley, the shooter is firing on an electronic target and does not have to change cards as is the case in Wilkinstown. Never having shot at either venue, I will bow to your superior knowledge of those conditions, however on a previous visit to Bisley, the Wilkinstown boys and girls achieved some very good results. There are many other Air Rifle facilities in the UK that would not be subject to the problems experienced in Bisley. In addition, the Malcolm Cooper Range downstairs is an eminently superior range to anything we have on this island, and anyone shooting on it regularly would expect to see better scores than they would achieve at home.
As for selection committees, to accept your argument would be to accept a situation that would make us unique in sport. Pretty much every sport in this country comes under the auspices of a selection committee as a subset of it's NGB. There have been many cases of athletes being selected for national duty, not having reached the raw selection criteria, usually on the basis of expected levels of improvement, or because a layoff through injury prevented attendance at qualification trials and many other reasons which can only be dealt with objectively by a commitee. Your dislike of selection committees stems from your disagreement with decisions on selection made by our committees in the past. To turn your own argument around, a selection committee could in the future select an overseas competitor on the basis of consistent scores achieved abroad where no scores were achieved at home.
I am not confusing squads with teams, the team is drawn from the top ranks of the squad, and the squad is drawn from the top levels of the shooting pool. At present, we do not have the numbers to constitute a team let alone a squad. That's why I am saying that we should be working at increasing the numbers in the pool first.
I also refuse to click my sights up any further. I am pointing at the target, and don't want to overshoot.
Having spent 14 years in this sport, I know how difficult it is to bring just one person into the ranks and keep them there and motivated. Realistically the only place we can draw new shooters in any kind of quantities from at the moment is the colleges (and hopefully the schools in the future). This is where we should be focussing our efforts. Many shooters go through the ranks in colleges only to fall off at the end of their tenure there. We should be working at encouraging them to continue after their college terms have ended.
At present Rathdrum can count four ex alumni in their membership, and this is far too small a number when you consider the membership of DURC in any one year. You are best placed to explain how this is so, but my belief is that as they are subsidised through their college years, many are not prepared either financially or through time or travelling constraints to continue their sport after graduation. In order to combat some of this, we have introduced a fee structure that attempts to encourage such graduates to join, however the other costs (rifles and clothing) are still prohibitive. Hence my proposition that we must spend money on infrastructure to give these shooters a 'soft' landing.
I have also started an initiative to bring the current members of DURC who are interested in .22 target shooting to Rathdrum on a regular basis to give them much needed range time and coaching in order to improve their scores and to give them a feel as to how thay can continue their sport after graduation. Sometimes it can be as simple as feeling welcome at an external club that can tip the balance. I may be wrong on this, but I'm willing to give it a try and it will cost nothing more than a little time and effort. So bah sucks to your contention that I'm trying to avoid work
Tell me honestly, would it not be a landmark achievement, if we could get a regular turnout of thirty or more shooters at competition regularly by the end of the year?0 -
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rrpc wrote:I will continue to not quote you in the interests of clarity
Well, I'll continue to quote a line or two to give context to replies in the interests of clarity
...with the exception of the overseas shooters, a subject ... with which I fundamentally disagree ... my position is that it is more cost effective to ship a smaller number than a larger numberand in the interest of fairness, selection should be done on the basis of shoots hereMany overseas athletes who represent Ireland and live abroad frequently travel home for national meetsin those circumstances it's a much more level playing field, as the facilities are by and large relatively similar, and times achieved at (for example) track meets are influenced by a number of other factors besides available facilities.Your point regarding the NSRA Air Rifle Range is well made, but you could have also said that in Bisley, the shooter is firing on an electronic target and does not have to change cards as is the case in Wilkinstown.When the ease of changing your card is the primary factor in your final score, I think that you have to reexamine your technique
Seriously, electronic targets can shave a few moments from your time; but equally can drag down your score by distracting you and getting you to "play video games" as one coach put it. Shortens your follow-through, encourages you to watch the score and not the technique, keeps the last shot right in your face during prep for the next one, and so on. It's very much a case of swings and roundabouts.There are many other Air Rifle facilities in the UK that would not be subject to the problems experienced in Bisley.In addition, the Malcolm Cooper Range downstairs is an eminently superior range to anything we have on this island, and anyone shooting on it regularly would expect to see better scores than they would achieve at home.As for selection committees, to accept your argument would be to accept a situation that would make us unique in sport.
BTW, we already are unique in Irish sport. No other sport (and I'm counting the tetra/pentathlon amongst us) uses firearms in Ireland, for a start...Your dislike of selection committees stems from your disagreement with decisions on selection made by our committees in the past.To turn your own argument around, a selection committee could in the future select an overseas competitor on the basis of consistent scores achieved abroad where no scores were achieved at home.At present, we do not have the numbers to constitute a team let alone a squad. That's why I am saying that we should be working at increasing the numbers in the pool first.Realistically the only place we can draw new shooters in any kind of quantities from at the moment is the colleges (and hopefully the schools in the future).
And the scouts are a rather untapped resource.We should be working at encouraging them to continue after their college terms have ended.my belief is that as they are subsidised through their college years, many are not prepared either financially or through time or travelling constraints to continue their sport after graduationI have also started an initiative to bring the current members of DURC who are interested in .22 target shooting to Rathdrum on a regular basisTell me honestly, would it not be a landmark achievement, if we could get a regular turnout of thirty or more shooters at competition regularly by the end of the year?0 -
Sparks wrote:
Well, I'll continue to quote a line or two to give context to replies in the interests of clarity
Here, we have no disagreement - large club shoots do great things for esprit de corps in the club and for the recreational shooters can be a highlight of the year, but for serious training they're too infrequent and too costly.And I maintain that that sentence contradicts itself. The interests of fairness demand that shoots not be limited to those on the calendar. Several of our national champions have for various reasons (usually to do with work or college) had to live abroad for various lengths of time; allowing these to train and shoot abroad while living there is only fair.
Anyway, this is a bit academic, as AFAIK, one of the people selected to go to the European Championships was an external competitor living abroad. Which backs up my contention that selection committees do work in the manner in which they're intended.An argument which applies equally well to target shooting.(snippage)When the ease of changing your card is the primary factor in your final score, I think that you have to reexamine your technique
Seriously, electronic targets can shave a few moments from your time; but equally can drag down your score by distracting you and getting you to "play video games"...(snippage)Poppycock....Really???? Would you put money on that?, because I certainly would. Right here and now, I'd bet any money you like, that you could not duplicate your scores at 50m in Bisley, on the DRC range or Midland for that matter, given the same amount of time on each. Anyway, the bet is moot as it's already proven. You shot in Bisley as did I, and I know for a fact that my 50m scores on the Malcolm Cooper Range were significantly better in two comptitions than in any of the competitions I shot on Century Range. and that goes for the old Rimfire Range shot on Gehmann boxes as well.
btw i said 'unique in sport' not unique in the sport.Not so much, as by the process by which those decisions were arrived at and the poor notice that the shooters gotThey might; but they have flat-out refused to do so in the past, even when aspiring shooters have travelled at their own expense to try to put in qualifying scores in time for an international match because no domestic shoot was available.I agree we should be increasing the numbers; I don't agree that people will want to work under a system that means that the committee can veto your progression in the sport. Look at the examples of our past olympic and international shooters. Many of them have just walked away in disgust at the NTSA's procedures and now shoot for Northern Ireland alone or just don't compete any more.And the pony club.And the scouts are a rather untapped resource.Been saying that for years. I just don't think that it means we can ignore the other problems.Certainly not to the level of throwing a few grand at it immediately on graduating!I was talking last night during squad training to O_P about this. It does sound like an excellent idea. Hopefully it will get us back up to where we were a few years ago.Honestly, "landmark" is going a step too far. It would be a good thing to see and something to be happy about; but landmark would be three figures in the entry totals.0 -
rrpc wrote:Never of course in the interests of brevityI think I've woken up in the wrong sketch... What are you talking about????
See, this is why I say context matters!We're talking about fairness in the area of squad selection. If you are shooting in Ireland from a 40 foot container in the middle of a field, you might be forgiven for feeling a bit miffed as you squeeze the rain from your sodden shooting mat, that you are going to be pipped again by someone whose idea of changing a target is to increase the zoom on their sius ascor monitor.Anyway, this is a bit academic, as AFAIK, one of the people selected to go to the European Championships was an external competitor living abroad.No it does not, as you well know. People have been known to eschew some ranges in this country because they are so bad.You yourself, complained in another post about the LRC in Bisley, and that's a very cushy range nonetheless.But 10m shooting is not like 50m shooting, It doesn't require a lot of space and therefore not such a great expense. I could set one up inside my house FFS.How amusing.. Did you miss my point??They improve things considerably for distances in excess of 10m: for a start, you have a single point of aim throughout the competition, and there isn't the tiresome changing cards ritual.But again we're getting bogged down in details. Can you not agree with me without qualification?Really???? Would you put money on that?, because I certainly would. Right here and now, I'd bet any money you like, that you could not duplicate your scores at 50m in Bisley, on the DRC range or Midland for that matter, given the same amount of time on each.
Anyway, the bet is moot as it's already proven. You shot in Bisley as did I, and I know for a fact that my 50m scores on the Malcolm Cooper Range were significantly better in two comptitions than in any of the competitions I shot on Century Range. and that goes for the old Rimfire Range shot on Gehmann boxes as well.Well they have had almost three months notice for the Europaean 10m, and seven months for the World Championships. How much notice do they need?And as I said above, one such competitor was selected for the EuropeansI agree that a lot of mistakes were made in the past, though some of the decisions made were forced on the NTSA, due to a lack of interest from the shooters themselves. Again AFAIK, five shooters were selected for the Europeans, and four elected not to go!One person turned up for the last coaching session in Rathdrum. This sort of apathy has it's own reward.Yeah, we've worked with them.
Them too.Saying that isn't enough. Something needs to be done, although if you're constantly looking for other problems, I can see how you'd lose focusIs this some sort of defense mechanism to excuse failure?, because each time I mention a realistic goal, you immediately factor it to an unacheivable level.
If your goal is higher than you think you can easily reach, you won't sit on your arse doing nothing. You know this rrpc. Besides, last year's airgun open in WTSC had 56 entries, 100 is a pretty straightforward push from there...0 -
Rather than shooting I think the pair of ye are more suited to tennis with all this serve / counter serve business.
The debate might be better conducted via PM, because with the multipicity of quotes, I doubt anyone but ye can make anything of it.0 -
civdef wrote:Rather than shooting I think the pair of ye are more suited to tennis with all this serve / counter serve business.
*sigh*
I don't get why people have trouble following this, I really don't.
From where I sit, it's simple; the current system is not only unfair, it has no justification that stands up to scrutiny. An open competition would be a better solution, and with a bit of imagination, you can create a system that is both fair to the competitors and flexible enough to allow for the disparate needs of a large group of people who are trying to fit high-level training in and around work, college and family lives.0 -
Sparks wrote:*sigh*
I don't get why people have trouble following this, I really don't.
From where I sit, it's simple; the current system is not only unfair, it has no justification that stands up to scrutiny.An open competition would be a better solution, and with a bit of imagination, you can create a system that is both fair to the competitors and flexible enough to allow for the disparate needs of a large group of people who are trying to fit high-level training in and around work, college and family lives.
And Civdef, I appreciate the difficulty of keeping up with this discussion. I tried (in a lighthearted manner) to make it clearer by eschewing the quote system in favour of a more direct conversational style in order to make it easier to follow, but I was left on my own in that regard.0 -
Sparks wrote:I find brevity hides a multitude of sins that later bite you squarely in the ass...You were referring to large club trips when you said "...it is more cost effective to ship a smaller number than a larger number", weren't you?
See, this is why I say context matters!So put up a canopy. As far as the bullet's concerned, for the first 50 metres, it's all the same.Wrong. He's back home, and was selected on the basis of scores shot over a year ago in Ireland. Which exposes another fault in the current system - at least one of those chosen to go to the europeans hadn't picked up his rifle once in almost a year.One in particular and that wasn't for creature comforts, but because the nearest windbreak was Wales. From the bullet's point of view, that range wasn't the same as the others.It's not about cushiness. It's about shooting on the range. The LRC's floor bounces, the sight picture is testing and it's intimidating to the shooter. EARC on the other hand, is none of those things. Yet a score shot in the LRC doesn't count and one in EARC does...Nope. You seem to have missed mine though.Any ISSF match is shot with a single point of aim. You're confusing our practise of shooting ISSF matches on NSRA cards (in clear violation of ISSF rules) with shooting an ISSF match on ISSF cards (like with the gehmann target changers).Proves nothing given that you only shot two matches. You need to shoot a lot more than that to prove it wasn't because of mental factors or good wind/light or another environmental factor unrelated to the kind of target changers you have.Remember, the equipment doesn't make the score - you cannot just buy a medal! There were more than enough people in the LRC this weekend proving that with the latest FWB and Anschutz rifles and new jackets and trousers and all the new-fangled kit money could buy; and they still didn't break 540. Meanwhile, our kids, with old jackets and FWB 601 rifles, put in 540s and higher. Yes, there are advantages to new kit; but equally, there are disadvantages. You just can't buy a medal in this sport!
As far as notice goes, I've dealt with that in another post, but the draft calendar was puiblished in early November and all the external competitions were listed on it at that time.Four chose not to go because they knew they couldn't give a good performance with that much notice to change their training plans. That's a good choice on their part, not a display of apathy. If anyone's apathetic, it's the selection committee for not moving on the Europeans until the point where a proper training plan would be in it's closing stages.Again, not apathy, but a feeling that those coaching sessions just don't work because Barry doesn't have enough time with them to find out what's going wrong or to track their progress, or watch them shooting in a stressful competition.A feeling I happen to think is rather accurate. Matt and Geoff learnt more about how I shoot in the five or six hours of shooting we did this weekend in Bisley under stress than in a month of shooting at home.If Barry never sees this, how can he do any good for us? We know he's able to coach - his record in the UK juniors shows that - but he doesn't have here what he had to work with there in terms of time with the shooters.And?Looking for them? No, more like being kicked in the gut by them, repeatedly...Nope, it's a defence mechanism to avoid complacency.If your goal is higher than you think you can easily reach, you won't sit on your arse doing nothing. You know this rrpc.Besides, last year's airgun open in WTSC had 56 entries, 100 is a pretty straightforward push from there...0 -
rrpc wrote:And with that statement you reject all my arguments however cogetly put.I actually have no major problems with the system that is in place at the moment.But, I also understand the need to have an ongoing presence at internationals if we are to be taken seriously by the ISC.The requirement to take part in two qualifying competitions in a year, does not appear to be very onerous
But the problem wasn't with the attendance, but with the fact that scores from outside the state don't count.and the contention that seven months notice is not sufficient for people to prepare for a competition is arrant nonsense.And frankly I can't understand why it's so difficult to attend a European Championships representing your country when you have been preparing for a smaller competition two weeks beforehand.If I had been selected under those circumstances, I know which competition I'd have chosen.0 -
Sparks wrote:RRPC, if I give you a full, point-by-point answer, I'm too full of waffle, and if I give you a succint statement, I'm just rejecting your arguments? Exactly how should I respond then?Are you in training to get onto the National squad?No such need exists; rather there is a need to have an ongoing presence on in the finals to be taken seriously. If we have to sacrifice attendance for a few years in order to improve performances, so be it, it'll be worth it.Sure, if you're living here. But the problem wasn't with the attendance, but with the fact that scores from outside the state don't count.It most certainly is not nonsense. A proper training plan for the most demanding competition in our sport is going to be longer than seven months!Because you don't have sufficent time to wind down from the Championships, take into account what you learnt there, and then ramp back up for the Europeans.Hopefully, it would be the one towards which you'd been working for six months in a planned and structured way. Otherwise, you'd be wasting everyone's time and money and I don't think you'd do that RRPC.0
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rrpc wrote:No I wasn't. This was a discussion about shooters based abroad, and the feasability of bringing them home for qualification shoots. If you were to accept scores shot elsewhere than you would have pressure to allow all potential qualifiers the same facility.But not for the shooter.Well there you go then. Foreign based shooters can get selected based on scores shot here.The second is a communication problem, the onus should be on the shooter to indicate their willingness or otherwise to participate in the sport.Where's the bullet now?My point was about the ease of use of electronic targets vis a vis the three card system or even Gehmann boxes. I believe I referred to the fact that the changing cards ritual can be detrimental to scores, you then said that if it was the primarycause of bad scores I had a problem. I dismissed that statement as being needlessly simplistic and insulting.We don't shoot ISSF matches on the three card system. AFAIK the only match we shoot as an ISSF match is the Nationals, and they are shot on Gehmann boxes.All Rathdrum shoots are shot under NSRA rules.They were shot in the same week and on the same days that i shot on Century Range.That's not what Malcolm Cooper (RIP) said, he used to say that his first Olympic Medal cost him £50,000As far as notice goes, I've dealt with that in another post, but the draft calendar was puiblished in early November and all the external competitions were listed on it at that time.when it actiually happens, the people concerned turn it down???Well he had plenty of time with one person present :eek:That may be true, but that's an 'as well as rather than an "instead of".You might well ask the same question of Matt and Geoff.And the Pony Club decided they were better at coaching than we were, and the scouts couldn't get licences.Problems are only opportunities in another guise.0
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