are you satisfied with UCDSU

Stabshauptmann

(1) No I am not satisified with USDSU

But wouldnt a class rep have just as much cause to be dissatisfied or satisfied with the union as anyone else?

Its like taking a poll about are you satisfied with the government and only non voters can answer. Somone who voted FF might have every reason to be dissatisfie with the government eg "There are no cutbacks planed, secret or otherwise"

singingstranger

(1) No I am not satisified with USDSU

(Declaration: defeated in Class Rep elections but stayed involved and am now Secretary of the Union. Should also declare that I'm involved in my friend and classmate Órla Ní Threasaigh's Presidential campaign.)

In fairness, while I can understand Panda100's point about how a lot of the gang running this year are quite cliquish; they all had to get in there somewhere... take Barry, for example; wasn't a rep last year, became one this year BEFORE he starting seeing the Irish Lang Officer, is now running for a Sabbatical already. Ditto with James Carroll who first became involved as a 2nd Law rep and had won the office of Education Officer by the following February. And look how you might call him a deep insider by now.

My point is that it's not all that hard to become one of the 'insiders' that you might think some people are. I'd like to think I'm a bit of an example myself... wasn't a rep last year, ran for Class Rep, lost, but was Secretary of the Union within a month. It's really not all that difficult.

And while I can acknowledge the point that most of the First Years who would run for Council would be the more outspoken types, I don't it's all that true this year - I can only think of one who's very vocal with their contributions and it's their second year on Council.

Stabshauptmann

(1) No I am not satisified with USDSU

FAO MNG, InFront and all those who argue the union is involved too much in areas outside its remit

Anyone who says that X or Y is not the unions job, or thats not a students issue or as infront said

says who {that the union is a collective voice of students, on any issue on which the majority have the same opinion and want voiced, be it social, political or directly effecting students}? could you back that up? i cant prove its only there for student issues can you prove its there for global issues?

Article2 Fundamental Objectives wrote:

The objects of the Union shall be the promotion and furtherance of any matters of interest to its membership, and without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing...

And the only way to change that is by referendum (with certain conditions, all outlined on www.ucdsu.net - constitution there as well)

larryone

(2) They should disaffiliate from USI

While I am aware of the things that the students union has done for me (in a very general sense of me as a member, not particularly for me an an individual) over the last (em...) 6 years I still think it'd be fantastic if I had the option to leave it.
I think for the ammount of money I've paid for the union over the past number of years I havent nearly gotten my moneysworth.

larryone

(2) They should disaffiliate from USI

"matters of interest to its members"

What if those matters are of interest only to a minority of the students, and it happens that those who make the decisions are a part of that minority.

Who decides which global issue is of interest to the majority of the UCD students??

Stabshauptmann

(1) No I am not satisified with USDSU

Fundamental democratic process.

What makes it so truely representitive is the option to Reopen Nominations. If none of those up for election represent you, then says so.

Because they vote in council, provided quorum is met, on your behalf. Bit like your TD

larryone

(2) They should disaffiliate from USI

so these are the sort of things that are decided by our elected representatives?

"right lads, what'll we waste the members money on next?"
"who cares, they dont have the option to leave!"

Stabshauptmann

(1) No I am not satisified with USDSU

Why should you?
Should you have the choice not to pay tax?

How often do you eat/drink in SU bar, go to SU shops or are you a member of any society or sports club, because a lot get/got help from the SU at one time or another. Not to mention this years massive ents effort. Congrats, Anto is it?
After 6 yrs you should have gotton your moneys worth

Then theres th stuff specific to certain students like disabilities, welfare, accomadation, education. Consider it your social contribution (PRSI?)

Then intangible things like representing you and sticking up for your rights.

InFront

(2) They should not disaffiliate from USI

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

FAO MNG, InFront and all those who argue the union is involved too much in areas outside its remit

The objects of the Union shall be the promotion and furtherance of any matters of interest to its membership, and without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing...

Thats what you call proof? Thats open to way too much interpretation to be proof of anything. If you substituted the words INO/ IMO/ INTO/ IBEC into Union (meaning students' union) in the above paragraph you'd just take 'interests' to mean issues relating to work practice and conditions.

So by your definition, UCDSU are there for the promotion and furtherance of the abortion debate? For the promotion and furtherance of international debate on Iraq? Give me a break it's not that important, why dont we leave that stuff up to the people who know what they are talking about and focus on the promotion and furtherance of issues relating particularly to students! If students want their opinions on iraq promoted, join a society and protest with them.

Stabshauptmann

(1) No I am not satisified with USDSU

InFront wrote:

Thats what you call proof? Thats open to way too much interpretation to be proof of anything. If you substituted the words INO/ IMO/ INTO/ IBEC into Union (meaning students' union) in the above paragraph you'd just take 'interests' to mean issues relating to work practice and conditions.

So by your definition, UCDSU are there for the promotion and furtherance of the abortion debate? For the promotion and furtherance of international debate on Iraq? Give me a break it's not that important, why dont we leave that stuff up to the people who know what they are talking about and focus on the promotion and furtherance of issues relating particularly to students! If students want their opinions on iraq promoted, join a society and protest with them.

You are applying your own narrow definitition of Union.

Yes the union's members can pass motions forcing the union to mandate a certain position on issues such as abortion and Iraq.

Starting a society is one option, but if its an issue on which the majority of students agree, then the union is the most appropriate forum.

Its not up to you to say whats important or who should/can do what. Who are you to say that the student populace is unable to think and act for itself? Thankfully we have a democratic union, not a dictatorship.

If you want to restrict the scope of the union then start a petition and get a referendum held.

John_C

(2) They should disaffiliate from USI

singingstranger wrote:

My point is that it's not all that hard to become one of the 'insiders' that you might think some people are.

That's true.
The main reason is because most people have no interest in becoming an insider. The class rep meetings I've attended were dominated by pointless political discussions and had a very hostile atmosphere with some quite vicious bickering between members of the various political parties. Most people can see quite clearly that no work gets done at these meetings and don't bother going.

The type of person who sticks with these meetings is exactly the type of person who should not be involved in the union.

larryone

(2) They should disaffiliate from USI

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

Why should you?
Should you have the choice not to pay tax?

no, I shouldnt have the right not to pay tax. But we're not talking about a government here. We're not talking about the people responsable for managing an entire nation. We're talking about a (IMHO) fairly crappy students union.

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

How often do you eat/drink in SU bar, go to SU shops

the SU bar is no cheaper than any commercial business, the shops are open to anybody who wishes to use them, not just su members.

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

or are you a member of any society or sports club, because a lot get/got help from the SU at one time or another.

OK I'll give you that one. - but the sports clubs are dealt with by the Athletic Union Council, not the SU. Yes, societies. I'll give you that one. still not seeing expense justified.

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

Not to mention this years massive ents effort. Congrats, Anto is it?
After 6 yrs you should have gotton your moneys worth

ents effort. I'm sure they made a very good effort. fair play to them. Why should I have to pay for it?
What exactly are you trying to get at by calling me "Anto"?

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

Then theres th stuff specific to certain students like disabilities, welfare, accomadation, education. Consider it your social contribution (PRSI?)

disabilities issues should be taken care of by the college, and I certainly wouldnt mind paying for that. If I have any welfare issues, the SU is the last place I'd go to. There are student advisors in my school (departmant) and my college (faculty). Why should I be paying for the same service twice?

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

Then intangible things like representing you and sticking up for your rights.

The last time I went to the SU to ask them to help me and to stick up for my rights the response I recieved was almost insulting. It was in relation to security for bicycles on campus. Nothing happened about it.

This is why I should have the option to leave the students union - as should every member.

InFront

(2) They should not disaffiliate from USI

this argument isnt going anywhere, and an argument on this topic posted on boards.ie has makes about as much difference to the UCDSU as the difference UCDSU can make on the war in iraq or Rossport 5.

Why doesn't UCDSU focus on the things it actually has influence over? I don't know. Despite your throwing words like 'majority' around, I know that i'm not the only one, on boards or elsewhere, wondering this.

Look at it this way, if the SU was gone in the morning, it would be a huge loss to the students. But Bertie/ the Rossport 5/ Shell/ Bush wouldn't give a damn.

Pythia

(2) They should not disaffiliate from USI

Kaptain Redeye, are you involved with the SU?

singingstranger

(1) No I am not satisified with USDSU

larryone wrote:

ents effort. I'm sure they made a very good effort. fair play to them. Why should I have to pay for it?
What exactly are you trying to get at by calling me "Anto"?

'Anto' is Anthony Kelly, the Ents Officer, who's been organising any gig of any sort that's happened in the Student Bar or Astra Hall (and all of the Tuesday Tour stuff like the Colin Murphy gig that's been rescheduled again for fairly soon).

larryone

(2) They should disaffiliate from USI

Thanks singingstranger I was really confused at that one.

OK, so i've paid this guy to go organise a load of gigs. Why did I do it? - because I didnt have the choice not to do it.

Should I have the choice? I believe so.

Vainglory

(2) They should disaffiliate from USI

Zane from MTV2 wrote:

The UCDSU endorsing the Bertie/Shannon protest last week was pretty much the final straw with me and my union.

UCDSU didn't endorse a Bertie/Shannon protest. It endorsed a Bertie/Grants system protest.

Red Alert

(2) They should disaffiliate from USI

which I might add was a good idea vainglory about the grants protest. i would have had no major issue with a shannon one either on campus where SU council members/sabbats could partake or not partake of their own choosing and which cost the SU no money - my only gripe is really when non-ucd things start to cost money.

panda100

(2) They should disaffiliate from USI

John_C wrote:

That's true.
The main reason is because most people have no interest in becoming an insider. The class rep meetings I've attended were dominated by pointless political discussions and had a very hostile atmosphere with some quite vicious bickering between members of the various political parties. Most people can see quite clearly that no work gets done at these meetings and don't bother going.

The type of person who sticks with these meetings is exactly the type of person who should not be involved in the union.

I had the same experience when I went to one last year.I sat at the back and there was just an extremely unwelcoming vibe,with me getting a lot of dodgy 'who is she' looks!:)
I suppose just from a personal point of view and i'm sure im not alone in this.If you are not a class rep it is quite diffcult to be vocal and have your say within the union.Theres loads reasons I didnt run for class rep,I was a bit sick of the beggining year and really wanted to have more time for med soc,world aid soc and campaigns that intrest me this year.Whenever,I have asked something about the union though,I'm always reffered back to my class rep.Why cant I be directly involved with out having to go through my class rep all the time?uhhh who is the 3rd year med rep by the way-dont think we have one?This isnt having a go,it is just an observation.
One thing I think the union is incredibly bad at is listning to fair critisism and accecpting them.I can admit and fully accept my critisism for sending an email siding with Enda Duffys campaign.I cant accept that looking back now I was wrong to do that when I didnt really believe in his policies and I am sorry for doing it.I can accept my critisism and hopefully will and have learnt a good lesson from it(bad panda:o ) But i find that fairly critisising the union is not acceptable and you will be ostracised for doing so.Then they will come back to the same argument 'well if you dont like the union,get involved'!!!But from my experience it is incredibly difficult to do this.
On a total side note-does anyone remember jarlath regans 'fight the clique' campaign!His damn sticker is still stuck to my pencil case!!

Stabshauptmann

(1) No I am not satisified with USDSU

larryone wrote:

no, I shouldnt have the right not to pay tax. But we're not talking about a government here. We're not talking about the people responsable for managing an entire nation. We're talking about a (IMHO) fairly crappy students union.

And a very small, IMO fee

the SU bar is no cheaper than any commercial business, the shops are open to anybody who wishes to use them, not just su members.

Both are funded and run by the SU, on a non-profit basis IIRC. While they might serve non students, the bar isnt supposed to hence the student card-not garda ID, checks round rugby matches.

The food in the bar is far below market price. The bar isnt "cheap" but its not expensive. Its pretty average. Something Ive complained about before. But 2 other bars on campus arent able to compete on price. The sports closed down and the forum nearly did the same.

OK I'll give you that one. - but the sports clubs are dealt with by the Athletic Union Council, not the SU. Yes, societies. I'll give you that one. still not seeing expense justified.

Part of the expense so, its a start.

ents effort. I'm sure they made a very good effort. fair play to them. Why should I have to pay for it?
What exactly are you trying to get at by calling me "Anto"?

Anto Kelly is the ents officers name I *think*.
Why should I have to pay for it, rolf. Someone has to pay for them. Thats why its compulsory, because if you can get SU services for free you wont pay.

disabilities issues should be taken care of by the college, and I certainly wouldnt mind paying for that. If I have any welfare issues, the SU is the last place I'd go to. There are student advisors in my school (departmant) and my college (faculty). Why should I be paying for the same service twice?

You're willing to pay for the service, just not happy that two ppl are providing it? If you cant see the benifit of two bodies one service, think of how naturally competing interests would bring about an advesarial arrangement. I think it healthy and balanced. But then I might be more cynical than others.

The last time I went to the SU to ask them to help me and to stick up for my rights the response I recieved was almost insulting. It was in relation to security for bicycles on campus. Nothing happened about it.

So to hear that, but can you elaboutate?

This is why I should have the option to leave the students union - as should every member.

Because you can avail of the services anyway without paying, you dont value some services, and you dont feel the need or benifit of others. That and you were insulted once.

Stabshauptmann

(1) No I am not satisified with USDSU

Pythia wrote:

Kaptain Redeye, are you involved with the SU?

Did I declare that I was in the stickied thread at the top of this forum?

larryone

(2) They should disaffiliate from USI

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

Why should I have to pay for it, rolf. Someone has to pay for them. Thats why its compulsory, because if you can get SU services for free you wont pay.

yes, someone has to pay for it - the people who choose to avail of it. right now I'm paying not just for something I dont avail of, I'm paying so other people can.

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

You're willing to pay for the service, just not happy that two ppl are providing it? If you cant see the benifit of two bodies one service, think of how naturally competing interests would bring about an advesarial arrangement. I think it healthy and balanced. But then I might be more cynical than others.

no, my point is I pay the college, and the college supply welfare support in the form of student advisors. I'm also paying the students union for the same thing. I'm paying them for something I've already paid for, and is being provided by the people I've paid. why should I have to pay for something I've paid for elsewhere?

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

So to hear that, but can you elaboutate?

sure - see new thread.

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

Because you can avail of the services anyway without paying, you dont value some services, and you dont feel the need or benifit of others. That and you were insulted once.

not because I can avail of it without paying - because others are availing of something I am paying for.
dont value some of the services? not at the price I'm paying, no.
And yes, I was insulted by someone I'm paying without choice to do a job.

larryone

(2) They should disaffiliate from USI

quoting from the bicycle thread:

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

TBH, if thats your story, doesnt sound like the SU guy insulted you, more vice-versa and he took the words right out of my mouth. Someone should organise a campaign. I dont cycle but would come to your meeting and maybe get involved if I think the campaign well organised or potential to be so.

I'm not organising a meeting or a campaign. As far as I'm concerned that's the sort of thing I pay the union to do. I asked those I have paid for some sort of representation, and I was asked if I'd do the job for him. As I said, the response I recieved was almost insulting. I dont have the time, that's why I have an elected and paid representative.

humbert

(2) They should disaffiliate from USI

I couldn't agree more

scop

Actually I do wonder if it is possible to leave the SU, worth a shot, Id be interested on the principle that I despise unions.

InFront

(2) They should not disaffiliate from USI

In fainess, Im hardly the SU's biggest fan as it stands at the minute, but the SU has a lot of untapped potential and as Kaptain redeye said, we all avail of its services even if it is just the SU shop or the bar... we shouldn't be allowed just to leave it

It's just a pity how poorly the thing is run. Is it too much to ask for us to have an efficient hardowrking team of union officers dedicated to their posts and not CV decoration/ political ramblings on

larryone

(2) They should disaffiliate from USI

scop, a friend of mine (syth on boards) already tried. Go back a page or two, you might find a post he made. You just simply cant. I think we should have the right to leave.

scop

larryone wrote:

scop, a friend of mine (syth on boards) already tried. Go back a page or two, you might find a post he made. You just simply cant. I think we should have the right to leave.

Strange, one would assume they can leave any organisation they do not wish to be a part of in a free society. :mad:

John_C

(2) They should disaffiliate from USI

scop wrote:

Strange, one would assume they can leave any organisation they do not wish to be a part of in a free society. :mad:

On that topic, the Vet students voted to leave the SU a good few years ago and they had their own Vet SU. When they moved to Belfield the SU just decided to disregard this and started representing the Vet students again. I always tought that was a bit undemocratic.

On the bicylce issue, the SU's responce says two things to me.
1. That they're too busy with silly politics to take care of a propper issue.
2. That they don't know how to respond to anything other than to hold a protest march.

larryone

(2) They should disaffiliate from USI

He actually did propose organising a protest march too.