Too much Politics and not enough spirituality?

the real ramon

This is a bit of a follow-on from the spirituality Vs. christianity thread though I thought it was enough of a departure to warrant a thread of it's own.

Anyway, to the point: it seems to me that in some religions a lot of people and sometimes organisations themselves are more focussed on political issues rather than spirituality or the spiritual needs of their members. They seem to think more in terms of making everybody conform to their political views rather than on their own spirituality.

This to me would be true of Islamic fundamentalism (seemingly purely political and devoid of spirituality), ditto Christian fundamentalism (particularly in USA), a fair amount of Hindus, some Asatruars, and the Roman Catholic Church and a fair amount of those who are still Catholics (I discount the many who don't believe in God or RC teachings or theology and whose 'Catholicism' is confined to baptisms, weddings and funerals as Catholics)

My dad reads 'Alive!' and 'The Irish Catholic' and occasionally I look through them just to anger myself. They are almost entirely political and engaged in a battle against the state, secularism, equality, and science, all of which are frequently portrayed as an attack on religion. Pretty paranoid if you ask me. I think they're just p***ed-off they don't control the country anymore. To balance things I'd like to say my dad also reads 'Far east', a wonderful publication by the Columbans: very spiritual and good-natured.

Personally I think religions would be better off tending to their own and their members spirtual needs rather than fighting political battles. To me religion/spirituality is a personal journey, and that is all it should ever be. That is not to say religious people can't have political opinions, of course they can, and it can be informed by religion too, but for an organisation or church to engage politically I feel it is wrong. I think that should left to the state as the state consists of-and represents- everybody. religious organisations often don't even represent the views of many of their believers. If they want to get involved in politics they can form a political party in my opinion and go for election, otherwise I think they should concern themselves solely with spirituality.

I was wondering what others think.

stevenmu

Yes I think you're right, in more ways than one. I think that often people use or twist religion to suit their own political goals. An obvious example of this would be muslim extremists, who I believe anyway, just use Isalm and the Quran to gain power for themselves.

Also, within religion their are people who seem to almost forget about the core values of that religion in favour of some of the less important dogma, altough sometimes people outside a religion bring it's dogma to focus aswell. The best example of this is the catholic church's stance on homosexuality. Unfortunatly, many christians misinterpret the church's stance on homosexuality as meaning homosexuals are evil and to be treated as such, forgetting the principles of love, tolerance, forgiveness etc. Similarly many people criticise the church's stance again while forgetting about the much more important principles. In recent times, the homosexuality issue has become huge, eclipsing much else of what goes on in the church, when really it should only be a tiny little issue at best.

hairyheretic

the real ramon wrote:

I was wondering what others think.

I would agree with you.

Thankfully I'm only aware of a single asatruar who carries on in the way you've described, and he's received very little support anywhere I've seen him pushing his views. I don't think my own oppinions of him would get through the filters on here

the real ramon

hairyheretic wrote:

I would agree with you.

Thankfully I'm only aware of a single asatruar who carries on in the way you've described, and he's received very little support anywhere I've seen him pushing his views. I don't think my own oppinions of him would get through the filters on here

If he's the same Asatruar as has given me that impression of Asatru I don't think my opinions of him would get through the filters either. I do think though it's important not to tar all with same brush and also to differentiate between organisation and individual.

I think it's time myself to come up with some legislation to diminsh to influence of political lobbying, by any form of lobbying or pressure group. I think it's destroying democracy meself:(

hairyheretic

the real ramon wrote:

If he's the same Asatruar as has given me that impression of Asatru I don't think my opinions of him would get through the filters either.

Given how few there are around Dublin (I'm aware of only 3, counting myself) I suspect we are thinking of the same person.

the real ramon wrote:

I do think though it's important not to tar all with same brush and also to differentiate between organisation and individual.

Of course. You get fsckwits everywhere, be they religious, political or whatever.

the real ramon wrote:

I think it's time myself to come up with some legislation to diminsh to influence of political lobbying, by any form of lobbying or pressure group. I think it's destroying democracy meself:(

Its a nice thought, but to be honest, I can't see it happening. Those with money or power want to hold onto both, and the best way they can do that is to buy political favour to protect them, regardless of how the rest of the population is affected.

Nevyn

The reason why people get organised and become politcal is that only through
enguaging in the areana of politics can certain changes be made to legistation or reforms be made.

Ireland having been so predominatly chirstian for so long those of differing faiths would say nothing and just try and get on with thier own pratices.

We do now have EU and UN legistaion which garentees religious freedoms but there are many way which some religions are more equal then others or enjoys certain perks.

The only way to do this is to speak out but we don't tend to do this in this country.
We get on with living in our comunities doing our own personal PR
" S/He doesn't go to mass, as some funny ideas, dresses oddly, but thier a nice/good person."

So when some one gets fired up and starts to rant about how things are not fair they tend to be used to how things are in a different country were things are more secular but with most faiths treated the same.

Hard to tell if those who travel alternate spiritual paths are too conservative to make a fuss or too disenfranchised to care.

John Doe

I agree that religions are too involved in politics. Maybe it's a by-product of the over-organisation of organised religion:they're so structured that it's easy for high-up members to use them for their own ends. Lobby groups in politics are a disgrace, and an insult to democracy. This is true whether they're religious or not: wherever people have a disproportionate effect on government decisions democracy is not working. Somehow, it's always the ones with money/power who are over-represented...
Now, if only everyone could make the decisions that affect themselves, politically and spiritually. That'd be a good world to live in.

Stabshauptmann

the real ramon wrote:

This to me would be true of Islamic fundamentalism (seemingly purely political and devoid of spirituality), ditto Christian fundamentalism (particularly in USA), a fair amount of Hindus, some Asatruars, and the Roman Catholic Church and a fair amount of those who are still Catholics (I discount the many who don't believe in God or RC teachings or theology and whose 'Catholicism' is confined to baptisms, weddings and funerals as Catholics)

Basically everyone, its human nature to seek influence and I suppose those who have it seek more. And perhaps some people feel that their spiritual insigt gives them other "insights" aswell

occasionally I look through them just to anger myself.

Doing something in anticiapation of a negitave result doesnt seem particularly productive to me. Maybe if you read them for other reasons.

TBH I personally dont like organised religion. I dont like rules, structure or hierarchys. But that might be because of my own arrogant nature or student defiance of authority. So its fair to presume organised religion suits some ppl, just not me. And I would think it logical that these institutions that put effort into instucting their members in things like morals, would use their resources to promote said morals.
And I can actually see the logic in theocracys as systems of governance, in theory shouldnt those with the highest morals and closest affinity to the devine know how best to govern?

The reason Id say no, is that
A)Power currupts
B)Governance is about more than just morals
C)Ppl have the right to self determination, if they want to choose the wrong path so be it. But they have the right to choose and thus have elections, thus not a theocracy

joseph dawton

I agree that governments should be secular. Politics does not belong in religion but there are occasions when the religious should and have got involved in politics with just cause.

Two fine examples are Mahatma Gandi and Martin Luther King, both involved from a deeply spiritual and moral angle. Sometimes it takes people to stand up for what is right even if it does mean trading punches (metaphorically) with the slime that inhabit the political world.

A bit more ethics and spiritual awareness would do the politicians of this world no harm.

http://www.electricpublications.com

Thomas_S_Hunterson

When any group (company/religion/country) becomes too large, it seems to have to sacrifice it's morals in the interest of becoming even bigger.
Look at the US, it is so big now and so powerful that it's citizensfundamental freedoms have to be suppressed
The church can no longer focus on it's spiritual well being as there is too much power and money involved. It's like a runaway train.

the real ramon

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

Doing something in anticiapation of a negitave result doesnt seem particularly productive to me. Maybe if you read them for other reasons.

Yeah you're right I've got to stop doing that, or better still not let political or religious fundies press my buttons. For as long as I remember I've pretty much tolerated just about everything but intolerance, but now I'm thinking I've had enough of being angered by intolerant people, I feel like tolerating their intolerance to a degree. I've just had a look through Alive! again and it didn't so much as anger me as concern and sadden me, is that what passes for RC these days? I'm sure they only represent a small minority within the church, they might represent my dad, but they don't represent my mum by a long shot or actually no other Catholic I know apart from one. I feel more sorry for people like that now, that they see belief as more political than spiritual.

Thanks for what you said again, it needed to be said and I feel as if a monkey on my back is leaving How much do shrinks charge for this an hour now? e100? e150? Ha! Ha!

the real ramon

joseph dawton wrote:

Two fine examples are Mahatma Gandi and Martin Luther King, both involved from a deeply spiritual and moral angle.

You're right of course, although to qualify it I'd say that neither could go through the normal channels guaranteed in a full democracy where all are equal. But yes, you can base your politics on religion, just as you go through the electoral process if that's open to you. I have no problem with the Christian Solidarity Party campaigning on religious grounds as they go through it the proper way, and more power to them for that