Why vote Sinn Fein?

Time Magazine

constitutionus wrote:

face it lads all the smearing and SF bashing doesnt change the fact their gonna ROMP home at the next election

No it doesn't, the fact that they'll get about 10% of the vote does. Romp home! If the Socialist Party quadruple their vote they're still not in with any sort of a chance with being in government. In all probability, FF will lose a fair whack of market share but still be in government. Foolish analysis, constitutionus.

doubling or trebling their vote.

I will put a €100 bet with you now, in a fair and open manner, that SF will not double their vote in the next election. I will place a €500 bet that they will not treble it.

your real question should be why the mainstream parties cant capatilise on the obvious disatisfaction with the current gov

Well for one, the most mainstream party is the head of the government, so that leaves only two. But that itself is flawed analysis. Look at FG in 2002. Slaughtered. Look at them in 2004, they beat FF. Yes, beat (taking in relative weights of local and European). For the first time ever. FG are expected to gain about 15 seats in the next election. They are capitalising. They're soaking it up. There's no more dis-satisfaction to reasonably take!

you can waffle on insulting people but not FG or Labour are gonna increase their mandate any where NEAR the proportion that SF will.

See above; weak, weak argument.

so ask yourself this WHY has enda and pat FAILED so miserably in appealing to the mainly young NEW voters that SF are hovering up?

If you want to look at participation by young people, look no further than Young Fine Gael - which has 4,000 members. That's more than Sinn Féin in total. YFG are far more active and vocal than Ógra Sinn Féin. And I bet you anything that YFG will have more current or recent members elected to the Dáil than the Sinn Féin party in total.

it couldnt , shock horror, be that they just dont WANT what they have to sell?

You mean some of an old stock of guns? Badumtish!

Well if these young people want to vote for Sinn Féin and bring the country into absolute disarray they can, I won't be here for it.

A new generation of Paddies in London. Sure maybe that's SF's plan, make Britain an Irish state?

SF have no reasonable economic policies.
SF have no reasonable education policies.
SF have no reasonable, costed social policies.
SF have senior members who have been major players in a terrorist organisation.
SF are the party most riddled with corruption. The only reason this has not come under major public scrutiny is their even more subversive elements.
SF will have no credibility with some major trading partners and will hinder our FDI and employment prospects.
SF will have no respect from the organs of the State, which they failed to recognise up until the '80s.
SF will be, as they always have been, detrimental to Anglo-Irish relations.
SF bear the most hatred and resentment of all parties on this island, causing the seeds of political hostility once again.
SF actively intimidate other parties in their strong electoral areas.

Other than "I think they're nicer than the other candidates", why vote SF?

constitutionus

Angry Banana wrote:

No it doesn't, the fact that they'll get about 10% of the vote does.

they HAVE 10% of the vote now, they'll get 20:D and theres nothing FG or labour is offering to take those vote back.

and its worth remembering the PDs only have 4% of the vote, and they're in power. you think bertie wont hop into the sack with SF you dont know FF:D

slinky

Course he would in a heartbeat! Sure when lemass described FF as a slightly constitutional party in 1929 he was called everything under the sun...just a few years later FF are entering the dail to take up power (with guns in their pockets just in case the army didnt agree!). look at them now they can't leave the place!

SF are doing the exact same as FF in 1927, only difference is SF entered as an all-ireland party. The majority of parties here come from the physical force tradition - the whole point of the GFA is to finally end that and resolve our differences through dialogue and constitutional means. So expect to see SF in government north and south when the numbers add up!

Mr.E old

Good question...

I really don't think they have any real economic, education, or social policies. Plus, with the connection with armed terrorists and recent controversies such as the McCartney and Rafferty affairs...

Diorraing

People keep harping on about SF being 'scum' and 'criminals'. I don't know whether this abuse is because SF once had an illegitimate army (that hasn't been active in 10 years and has decommissioned its weapons) or because they have a large working class vote (in areas like Crumlin and West Dublin).
What worries me about it is that it hides the real grounds which people should attack SF on, for instance their 30% corporation tax proposal. If SF are a "shower of criminals" they should be arrested, they haven't been arrested, therefore we must assume they are not criminals.
Yes the IRA were a brutal force, so were FF during the civil war and at least SF aren't entering the Dáil with guns.
They are communists, they are ultra-liberal, there is plenty of scope on which to attack them but purely on the basis of: "They had a brutal army 10 years ago and they're all a bunch of scumbags" doesn't stand as an argument

Diorraing

Angry Banana wrote:

Sinn Féin are scum. They're not freedom fighters, or a legitimate party in the making. They're scum. If I ever found out that my party had any of the crap going on that the Shinners have, I'd hand in my resignation that day. The Shinners do not deserve respect, they don't give it yet; and for God's sake their recent history doesn't deserve it.

This illustrates my point. Going by the poster's logic, the only reason I shouldn't vote for SF is because they are "scum" and they "do not deserve respect". Apparently they are not a legitimate party in the making (although I fail to see what makes them illegitimate anymore!?!).
All I ask for is more substantial debate, a debate on their economics, a debate on their social policies, on their desire for unity.
SF are scum is not an argument. It is not backed up or informed. It would be like me calling an opponent 'illegitimate child' in a debate. It simply isn't an argument

Time Magazine

Diorraing wrote:

This illustrates my point. Going by the poster's logic, the only reason I shouldn't vote for SF is because they are "scum" and they "do not deserve respect".

If you would like to read my last post in this thread, I think we'll find you're being slightly blind . I gave ten, well-asserted reasons why not to vote for Sinn Féin. Please go through them all, one by one, and tell me why I should vote for Sinn Féín.

And yes, they are scum. Last Friday night a member said she was "not authorised" to say murder is wrong. That's wrong in itself. Nobody is not authorised to say murder is wrong. Everybody is obliged to.

Diorraing

Diorraing wrote:

Yes the IRA were a brutal force, so were FF during the civil war and at least SF aren't entering the Dáil with guns.

We are talking about the here and now, the 21st century Ireland of vastly improved standards rather than what was acceptable at the turn of the last century.

I do know that catholics did awfull things in the middle ages.
Indeed they did awfull things to unmarried mothers in the early 20th century which were official and accepted (magdalene sisters etc) at the time but arent today.
Any party must conform to accepted norms in todays world and not the norms of a different time.

The IRA are going to have to do some convincing yet to middle Ireland before it's believed they are gone and inactive.
Criminal investigations into a €100 million business empire dont help.

Zebra3

Angry Banana wrote:

Fine Gael did not back the invasion of Iraq, and you seem not to have responded to my allegations of the low tolerance (and indeed prevalence) of corruption within the party.

Maybe FG didn't back it, but they are more than happy for the US to use Ireland on their way to murdering Iraqis and stealing their oil. Just because US troops stopped here during peace time doesn't mean it should be used as an excuse for them stopping here while on a murder run.

Corruption doesn't just apply to within a party. FG like FF are happy enough to see rich people shave 25,000,000 euro of their tax bill while having poor people chased by the gardai for getting a few extra quid out of the labour.

Likewise FG (and FF) are happy with the situation that poor people face the courts for their wrongdoing while rich people face tribunals. How many politicans have been jailed for corruption? Why isn't the law being used against them?

That's corruption.

Freelancer

Zebra3 wrote:

Maybe FG didn't back it, but they are more than happy for the US to use Ireland on their way to murdering Iraqis and stealing their oil. Just because US troops stopped here during peace time doesn't mean it should be used as an excuse for them stopping here while on a murder run.

Fine but theres a world of difference from a moral point of view, you cannot equate the above with SF members giving pratical support to murderers and killers. If you feel so strongly about this Id advise you not only to not vote FG or FF, but also to not watch any american tv, listen to american music, use windows or Mac, and essentially boycott everything american.

Corruption doesn't just apply to within a party. FG like FF are happy enough to see rich people shave 25,000,000 euro of their tax bill while having poor people chased by the gardai for getting a few extra quid out of the labour.

Likewise FG (and FF) are happy with the situation that poor people face the courts for their wrongdoing while rich people face tribunals. How many politicans have been jailed for corruption? Why isn't the law being used against them?

That's corruption.

The above socialist youth rant aside nothing in the above is a reason to vote for SF, and while the major parties may have been and are awash with corruption, they don't appear to have a paramiltary wing with its own complex money laundering operation. So don't tell me a vote for SF is going to change the culture of corruption in Irish Government.

murphaph

Earthman wrote:

We are talking about the here and now, the 21st century Ireland of vastly improved standards rather than what was acceptable at the turn of the last century.

Indeed, it's not fair to compare the actions of 100 years ago and the actions of today. 100 years ago it was generally accepted that women shouldn't vote, so those times are hardly a yardstick by which we should measure a modern party with very recent (current) links with an organisation that has murdered children in living memory.

The fact is, SF have nothing without the united Ireland gig and most people know that. That's good enough of a reason not to vote for them. Few people will risk our economic stability to take on the hate-pit that NI has become.

Time Magazine

Zebra3 wrote:

Maybe FG didn't back it

Maybe, eh?

but they are more than happy for the US to use Ireland on their way to murdering Iraqis

Proof, please?

and stealing their oil.

Proof, please? I could have sworn a semi-State body was set up to administer the oil - something that's in the best interests of Iraq but against US ethics. And also, the price of oil has skyrocketed since Iraq and economies world-wide have felt the pinch. This benefits oil-exporting countries, such as Iraq. Not oil-importing countries, such as America.

Just because US troops stopped here during peace time doesn't mean it should be used as an excuse for them stopping here while on a murder run.

Well firstly that's your opinion. Secondly, have you any proof Fine Gael support the American military going on a "murder run"?

Corruption doesn't just apply to within a party. FG like FF are happy enough to see rich people shave 25,000,000 euro of their tax bill

Proof, please? Fine Gael have consistently made this very fact an electoral issue. FF have, in the last year or so, gone out of their way to change this (cap on artists' allowance, etc.)

while having poor people chased by the gardai for getting a few extra quid out of the labour.

Is that not wrong?

Likewise FG (and FF) are happy with the situation that poor people face the courts for their wrongdoing

God forbid Fine Gael want people to face courts for their wrongdoing. Would Sinn Féin discriminate against rich people for the same crime?

while rich people face tribunals.

Proof, please?

How many politicans have been jailed for corruption? Why isn't the law being used against them?

Name a specific case where a politician could be charged with corruption relating to FG. As I've said, I don't vote for FF, so stop dragging their corruption into my political realm. Name one Fine Gael politician that you have evidence of corruption of, and that wasn't severely dealt with.

And still the Shinner uses relative justification. No justification whatsoever for SF's actions on their own. And in your reply, please respond to the ten points I made above and, if applicable to Earthman's comments about progress since the Civil War.

The_Minister

Angry Banana wrote:

Proof, please? Fine Gael have consistently made this very fact an electoral issue. FF have, in the last year or so, gone out of their way to change this (cap on artists' allowance, etc.)

They shouldn't have changed the artists allowance.
As ive said before it is some smart ass accountants who figure out how to manipulate the system. No-one ever set out to make these tax-breaks.

Time Magazine

Firespinner wrote:

They shouldn't have changed the artists allowance.
As ive said before it is some smart ass accountants who figure out how to manipulate the system. No-one ever set out to make these tax-breaks.

I vehemently disagree. I don't think anyone should earn over €50,000 and not pay tax - be it Anthony O'Reilly or Bono.

The_Minister

Angry Banana wrote:

I vehemently disagree. I don't think anyone should earn over €50,000 and not pay tax - be it Anthony O'Reilly or Bono.

You're taking the small minded Sinn Fein approach. (They're small minded not you)
1. Literature contributes greatly to a country and should be appreciated.
2. You are thinking of it as a salery/income. Don't. Most claims are one off and about €5000, but lets deal with the once off €500,000 (more than nessacery but an easy figure). They will earn this once and may earn minimum wage for the rest of their lives. Say they are twenty and live till eighty thats 500,000 divided by 60 = €8333.33 per year, not that much for vastly improving the nation.
3. Most artists/writers can spend years in between works - should they pay tax on a sum that will only give them below the minimum wage for their until their next work?

Time Magazine

The tax-liability is spread over (I think) either three or five years.

I don't care if they're going to earn minimum wage for the rest of their lives, they shouldn't be let off tax for that €500,000. I know it's of negligable effect to the economy, but so's letting a couple fat cats off.

And yes, I know the importance of literature. That's why I say it should be capped at €50,000.

It's the principle that I'm concerned about. Everybody should pay their fair share.

Now, I presume you'll disagree and I understand that point of view. But let's agree to disagree and wait and see what the Shinners come up with about the other points eh? .

Zebra3

Angry Banana wrote:

Proof, please?

On FG being more than happy for the US to use Ireland on their way to murdering Iraqis? If they get into power are they gonna stop the US landing here on their way to killing/torturing Iraqis?

Angry Banana wrote:

Proof, please? I could have sworn a semi-State body was set up to administer the oil - something that's in the best interests of Iraq but against US ethics. And also, the price of oil has skyrocketed since Iraq and economies world-wide have felt the pinch. This benefits oil-exporting countries, such as Iraq. Not oil-importing countries, such as America.

Simple. America invades Iraq, what's the first thing it does? It changes the currency Iraq sells their oil in from euros to dollars. Suddenly, America is getting oil a helluva lot cheaper (roughly 17%). A lot of people would call that stealing.

Angry Banana wrote:

Well firstly that's your opinion. Secondly, have you any proof Fine Gael support the American military going on a "murder run"?

As I said above, will FG turn American troops away?

Angry Banana wrote:

Proof, please? Fine Gael have consistently made this very fact an electoral issue. FF have, in the last year or so, gone out of their way to change this (cap on artists' allowance, etc.)

Consistently? How many of these laws survived the last FG-led government?

Angry Banana wrote:

God forbid Fine Gael want people to face courts for their wrongdoing. Would Sinn Féin discriminate against rich people for the same crime?

Well was the McCracken Tribunal not set up by an FG-led government? Why didn't these people face the same courts as the man in the street would?

A lot of people would see this as corruption. Politicans deciding that some people are too important to go through normal criminal proceedings. Corruption is not just about getting caught with a batch of unmarked fifties.

constitutionus

you know theres one other aspect to this no ones mentioned and thats the peace process. now i honestly dont give a monkeys about that but a SF/FF goverment would take the wind out of paisleys sails. shooting down his "if its not good enough for you why should it be good enough for us" arguement over going into power with SF . and would practically force him to go into an assembly with em.

personally i reckon thats whats gonna happen. of course people will lay into bertie but if he sell it as bringing the peace process to a conculsion i reckon he'll get away with it, so book your plane tickets now lads while the flights are cheap

Cork

Diorraing wrote:

I don't know whether this abuse is because SF once had an illegitimate army (that hasn't been active in 10 years and has decommissioned its weapons) or because they have a large working class vote (in areas like Crumlin and West Dublin).

The IRA have not been inactive - that is now part of the problem.

Incidents like the Joseph Rafferty case, Robert McCartney murder and continued criminality highlight what a problem the IRA has become.

What are the shinners doing about it?

You'll never get direct answers from them.

constitutionus

Cork wrote:

The IRA have not been inactive - that is now part of the problem.

Incidents like the Joseph Rafferty case, Robert McCartney murder and continued criminality highlight what a problem the IRA has become.

What are the shinners doing about it?

You'll never get direct answers from them.

proof please?

Cork

proof please?

IMC Report?
IRA still gathering intelligence?

Nothing new here.

The Provisional IRA and some of O Snodaigh’s colleagues in the upper echelons of Sinn Fein have engaged in many, many abductions and murders over the years. That, of course, is all deemed ancient history in this brave new world of political forgiveness, but O Snodaigh’s close associates have more recent form. Niall Binead, one of his electoral workers, was arrested and convicted in late 2004 of his involvement in, among other things, an IRA spy ring that gathered intelligence on cabinet ministers and TDs.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2091-2025479,00.html
SF/IRA cannot handle the truth.

Politically they are a joke. With or without their army - they achieved precious little.

constitutionus

Cork wrote:

IMC Report?
IRA still gathering intelligence?

Nothing new here.

which means the old ira now have LESS guns than the farmers in this country now and are engaged in the same activities EVERY political party is doing right this minute i.e trying to find the best way to better their aims through knowledge of the populace

cork wrote:

Politically they are a joke. With or without their army - they achieved precious little.

as opposed to FG, whos only distinguishing difference between FF is they're LESS experienced and achieved even less:rolleyes:

and by the way NEITHER of those things are involved with your previous statements. if you have proof the IRA sanction either of those cases PROVE IT

and finally the IRA AND SF ARE NOT THE SAME ORGANISATION . deal with it! if you have policy difficulties with SF share em, dont harp on about something that has no relevance to the issue

Cork

finally the IRA AND SF ARE NOT THE SAME ORGANISATION

This may be news to you.

The usual implication is not that Sinn Féin and the IRA are one and the same, or that members of one are necessarily members of the other, but that there is a significant overlap between the two groups, especially at leadership level. The large number of former IRA prisoners in present-day Sinn Féin reinforces this view. Often asserted is the accusation that the two most prominent members of Sinn Féin , its president Gerry Adams and its "chief negotiator" Martin McGuinness, sit on the IRA Army Council. Martin Ferris, a Sinn Féin TD, is also mentioned quite frequently as a Council member

SF is not like FG. The IRA is a criminal gang.

What is SF doing about this. Nothing.

Who controls the IRA? Who controls SF?

The daugher of Ferris was not authorised to condemn the McCabe murder on TV.

Who gives these people authorisation?

murphaph

constitutionus wrote:

..the IRA AND SF ARE NOT THE SAME ORGANISATION . deal with it!

Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true. SFIRA's the name, crime's the game. When a party cannot condemn the murder of a member of our police force then they deserve no respect nor place in the government of this 26 county republic. What the people of the UK make of them is their own business but if I were a british subject then I would want zilch to do with them too.

A Dub in Glasgo

Cork wrote:

IMC Report?
IRA still gathering intelligence?

Nothing new here.

Hate to break it to you but the IMC report is not proof, it is speculation.

Cork

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Hate to break it to you but the IMC report is not proof, it is speculation.

Provo Information gathering is not speculation.

The Provisional IRA and some of O Snodaigh’s colleagues in the upper echelons of Sinn Fein have engaged in many, many abductions and murders over the years. That, of course, is all deemed ancient history in this brave new world of political forgiveness, but O Snodaigh’s close associates have more recent form. Niall Binead, one of his electoral workers, was arrested and convicted in late 2004 of his involvement in, among other things, an IRA spy ring that gathered intelligence on cabinet ministers and TDs.

Old habits die hard?

What have SF/IRA done to stop provo criminality?

Adams has done nothing.

constitutionus

murphaph wrote:

Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true. SFIRA's the name, crime's the game. When a party cannot condemn the murder of a member of our police force then they deserve no respect nor place in the government of this 26 county republic. What the people of the UK make of them is their own business but if I were a british subject then I would want zilch to do with them too.

if this is true and you have proof then you are obligied by law to go down to your local gardai station, present it ,and DEMAND the arrest of every sitting SF councillor and TD.

BUT YOU CANT DO THAT CAN YOU

because your just peddling propaganda to cover the fact the main stream parties cant offer anything of any tangible difference to FF/PDs. and THATS why SF will romp home at the next election . you dont like it, fine, but they do offer a geniune alternative as oppossed to the "were just more of the same " platform FG and LABOUR are standing on

i might not stand bertie, but i despair at the idea of enda "dont count on me in a crunch " kenny running the country

murphaph

constitutionus wrote:

because your just peddling propaganda to cover the fact the main stream parties cant offer anything of any tangible difference to FF/PDs.

I leave the propaganda to the likes of SFIRA. If suckers want to buy into their utopian vision* then they deserve everything they get when it happens.

constitutionus wrote:

and THATS why SF will romp home at the next election . you dont like it, fine, but they do offer a geniune alternative as oppossed to the "were just more of the same " platform FG and LABOUR are standing on

They're certainly 'alternative' alright. I prefer 'more of the same' than radical 'solutions' (sometimes to non-existant problems like partition) to things.

constitutionus wrote:

i might not stand bertie, but i despair at the idea of enda "dont count on me in a crunch " kenny running the country

At least Enda Kenny (and I also dislike him) has no qualms about condemning the cold blooded murder (during a grubby post office robbery that will no doubt be paying for SFIRA election posters-they don't have many legitimate business donations) of one of OUR Gardai, then again, SFIRA barely recognise my country or it's institutions so I'm not surprised they see no wrong in gunning a member of AGS down like that just to get their filthy hands on some loot. Vile sub-human scum are all they are. Like I said anyway, SF are a passing fad. Labour offered this 'alternative' over a decade ago and have faded back to nothingness in the mean time. Bertie Ahern may not be your ideal man, but at least he can see that murdering people for political gain is absolutely wrong in this day and age.

A Dub in Glasgo

Cork wrote:

Provo Information gathering is not speculation.

Who has been convicted then?

constitutionus

murphaph wrote:

At least Enda Kenny (and I also dislike him) has no qualms about condemning the cold blooded murder (during a grubby post office robbery that will no doubt be paying for SFIRA election posters-they don't have many legitimate business donations) of one of OUR Gardai, then again, SFIRA barely recognise my country or it's institutions so I'm not surprised they see no wrong in gunning a member of AGS down like that just to get their filthy hands on some loot. Vile sub-human

like i said, you have proof, get all the SF people arrested for membership of an illegal organisation. oh thats right YOU CANT . peddle your biggotry elswhere



.

murphaph wrote:

Labour offered this 'alternative' over a decade ago and have faded back to nothingness in the mean time.

because they stabbed the electorate in the back. they'd STILL have 30 seats in the dail if they had of kept their word and got FF out of power, but they hopped in the sack with em and slit their own throats. there is a hunger out there for an alternative party. when the PDs were formed they had 30 seats now theyve less than ten. people thought labour were the next alternative in the 90's but were lacking when push came to shove, if SF play their cards right they could be one of the biggest parties in the dail within 10 years. and theres sod all all the shinner bashing can to to change that