Who's more skilful?

RobAMerc

Ok guys a question for you petrol heads that has bothered me for years.

I know these are totally different diceplins ( so please don't waist a whole thread pointing this out), but who do you consider a more skillfull driver.

The Schumacher, Senna, Prosts of this world or Makinen, Kankkunen, McRaes ?

Personally while I adored Senna and admire Shuey, I think that driving around the same circuit umpteen times on nice dry ( ok sometimes incredibly wet and dangerous ) day does not compare to hurtling down an ice covered forestry road in the dark, even if the guy beside you is telling you where to go.

What’s the general consensus?

Rob

Kersh

It depends on which way you look at it.
A circuit driver is skilled in extracting the max from a car on a given day whilst 'duelling' wheel to wheel with other drivers who are also extracting their maximum from their own cars.
Rally drivers compete against the clock, if they make a mistake they arent falling back through a field of drivers who wont let them by. They just shrug, and try not lose any more.
The consequences of a mistake in circuit driving are far more than in rallying. other people can take you off too, so the driver must be more skilled in the psychological end of things too.
I honestly dont think the 2 skills are comparable. Circuit racing tends to bore the average GT turbo driver, cos its so smooth and consistent. They tend to like rallying , cos its easy to copy it on the way home. These people think ar5e out action is skill. Which for a rally driver it is, but a circuit driver its just a waste of (valuable) time. remeber every time a driven wheel spins you arent going forward, you are wasting time.
Heikki Kovaleinen won the RoC 2004. Sebastian Loeb won Roc 2005, same course, same cars. ...
Its not just a simply answered question. Like you said, its 2 different disciplines.

SouperComputer

its impossible to compare IMO.

equally skilled, but in different areas.

el tel

I would love to see it put to the test but I would like to think that
a top rally driver driver would, on balance, post more respectable times on a track than a Formula 1 driver would on a (non-tarmac) rally course.

(If you haven't seen it before, rally-cross is an interesting discipline
with cars with 550-bhp 4WD cars racing around a mixed surface circuit
with both gravel and tarmac. http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/events/0306scc_rallycross/)

Kersh

Posting good times on a circuit is way different than racing. Way , way different. The rally driver 'may' post a good time( on a circuit), but can he judge/pass/race other competitors, and equally so, melt their heads in the paddock too....
The F1 racer just has to get used to a rally car, and go for broke - so no worries there.

ambro25

el tel wrote:

I would love to see it put to the test

Don't they do that in the Race of Champions every year? (Majorca or somesuch) That event where they pit F1 drivers vs rally drivers vs GT driversn vs TOCA drivers etc. on mixed surfaces, everyone with the same car....

RobAMerc

Good points Kersh, about your competitors being in your mind so to speak in rally as opposed to in your mirrors in circuit racing: there is certainly a different skillset required, but in pure car control, and abilty terms, do you not think a rally guy earns his keep more than the circuit racer ?

And please lay off the GT Turbo ( if you mean R5 Gt Turbo ), a great little rocket but not all of us who had them were hoons

Rob

Kersh

No, i mean Starbos...:D Starlet gt... boy racer etc.
But rally drivers dont have downforce. a thing Which really fux up your mind in regards to grip level. The slow corner grip is not related to fast corner grip, cos you have downforce, and it takes a lot of skill and mental ability, not to mention the loony doing the same thing just 12 inches to the left of you.... and ya gotta trust him too.
I dont think a rally driver will ever get used to downforce at f1 levels, whereas an F1 driver will be relieved in a rally car- no competitors, and the mechanical grip is all he has to worry about. I say he would be delighted.... and quick.

RobAMerc

Yea I spose downforce can take some work to get right( Although rally cars do have downforce to a degree) but circuit racers don't have to worry about possible ice, snow, gravel, or a goat on the next bend.

Unfortuantely at the top level circuit racing (F1 particularly) has become such that in the last few years the front runners don't really see too much of each other once the first 1-2 laps have passed and from then on take on the clock in a battle not too unlike the rally guy.

I do think that given a five mile strech of their respective tracks, a rally driver will have made more directional changes, steering movements, used the break, changed gear and featherd the throttle more times and had more things to consider than the circuit racer will have.


Rob

Alun

Seem to remember a long time ago seeing a program where Michael Schumacher was being driven round a rally circuit by one of the top rally drivers at the time. I seem to recall he looked absolutely petrified!

SouperComputer

I do think that given a five mile strech of their respective tracks, a rally driver will have made more directional changes, steering movements, used the break, changed gear and featherd the throttle more times and had more things to consider than the circuit racer will have.

This is why I think this thread will end up being a pi**ing competiton. A lap onboard with Senna at Monaco would equall this.

Frequency of inputs is a poor way of juding driving ability. In any case, success in motorsport at the highest level nowadays is equally about how you work with your team to get the optimum setup, its not just about driving ability. That is common amongst all forms of motorsport, from drag racing to rallying and single seater circuit racing.

Again, I make the point that they are equally difficult and challenging but very different forms of the "art".

Seem to remember a long time ago seeing a program where Michael Schumacher was being driven round a rally circuit by one of the top rally drivers at the time

I havent seen that, but I do remember him spinning out of the karting word champs in 2001!

Yea I spose downforce can take some work to get right( Although rally cars do have downforce to a degree) but circuit racers don't have to worry about possible ice, snow, gravel, or a goat on the next bend.

This is just the thing. Rally drivers dont have to worry about it either. The amount of grip the cars have on snow, ice and gravel is astonishing! Trees on the other hand can hinder progress. But so can armco and other driver's cars on a circuit.

Kersh

Remember, the more gear changes you make, the more dead time there is where you arent accelerating (say 1/10th of a second per change = 1 second lost in ten gear changes, thats a lot over a lap/stage). The more you turn the wheel the more speed you bleed off, and the more direction changes that are made the more unstable the car becomes and its balance is upset.

BrianD3

Hard to compare in terms of skill. But IMO rallying is more frightening and requires more balls than modern circuit racing. Maybe it could be said that rallying is cruder and less skillful because of this. Look at all the hazards that have to be dealt with with in rallying - darkness, ice, snow, gravel, animals crossing the road etc. all while travelling at 100+ mph. And if you lose it you go straight into a tree, ditch, pole, wall, someone's house, down the side of a cliff etc. Amazing that there aren't more fatalities (although there have been a few notable ones in recent years). Compare that to modern circuit racing where the safety of the tracks is a million times ahead of what it was 30 years ago yet rally stages are much the same as they were 30 years ago.

el tel

In 2002 when asked about him potentially driving a rally car Schumacher said:, "Maybe one day I'll do it, if it's in a safe place. I'm not that interested in going through a forest!"

He's fast but he's dendrophobic.

Vegeta

a good driver is a good driver end of story. Iknow a guy who test drove for Jaguar and was nearly offered a place on the team. He is equally comfortable on tarmac in an F1 car and on gravel in a wrc car.

He went round the Nurburgring in a 1.6 astra estate in 12 mins on his first go.

Squirrel

I reckon Juan Pablo Montoya would make a better rally driver than Fernando Alonso, and Richard Burns would've made a better F1 driver than Colin McCrae due to their differing styles

grizi

Even taking out the differences in the sports you can't ask who's the more skillful driver because there are different driving skills - aggressive lines, aggressive driving, defensive driving, consistency, control, feel for the setup of the car etc.

Senna for example made a point of being aggressive to other drivers on the track - how could he do that in WRC?
And in WRC you can see how some drivers excel on tarmac, others on ice and some do well on both - can you even say who's more skillful in WRC?

Each of the great drivers should be remembered for who the were, what the were good at and who they were good against - you can only fight against the opposition in front of you - statistics and people tell white lies.

He's fast but he's dendrophobic

Have you ever seen the Hockenheimring (until the last couple of years) - they weren't up against the trees but the cars would shake the moisture out of them as they went past

mike65

The question is - who would you like to be in a car with if the unexpected happened? Who would be more likely to save your ass?

I'd go with a top rally driver myself.

Mike.

Vegeta

also look at the stig on top gear, he's good all round

grizi

A rally driver might have more chance of keeping you on the road alright when the car is sliding. The thing is, a rally driver might be more likely to have you sliding off the road in the first place.
Anyways - in a crash I'd be more concerned about who or what I'm crashing into - another car, a truck, a wall etc and how safe the car I'm in actually is. The idea that you can "drive" out of a crash is almost contradictory.

SouperComputer

A rally driver might have more chance of keeping you on the road alright when the car is sliding. The thing is, a rally driver might be more likely to have you sliding off the road in the first place.

Not quite true, its easier to control a car that you have pitched into a slide, rather than one that comes out of the blue. I would argue that on the basis that a rally driver is more likey to initiate a slide that a circuit racer "might" be better able to cope with a sudden "hiccup"

It depends on that particular driver's style though. It woudn't bother me if they were from a circuit or rallying background. Id probably draw the line at a drag racer though!

SouperComputer

Vegeta wrote:

a good driver is a good driver end of story. Iknow a guy who test drove for Jaguar and was nearly offered a place on the team. He is equally comfortable on tarmac in an F1 car and on gravel in a wrc car.

He went round the Nurburgring in a 1.6 astra estate in 12 mins on his first go.

who is he?

grizi

The way rally drivers drive, the unexpected happens a lot more often - they hit rocks, ditches and walls, the surface degrades as the day goes on, tyres puncture and most of the time they are covering sections of track only a few times a weekend - they don't learn and perfect each corner like in F1. That's why I suggested they might be slightly better in an "unexpected" slide.

SouperComputer

grizi wrote:

The way rally drivers drive, the unexpected happens a lot more often - they hit rocks, ditches and walls, the surface degrades as the day goes on, tyres puncture and most of the time they are covering sections of track only a few times a weekend - they don't learn and perfect each corner like in F1. That's why I suggested they might be slightly better in an "unexpected" slide.

Yea thats true enough I suppose. Different skill sets, equally skilled maybe?

Bah, I dont know why I got into this discussion!

grizi

Oh yeah - the F1 and WRC drivers have brilliant skills - not totally different but different enough that they wouldn't swap sports. I think that's the real test of whether they're comparable or not - would someone swap over or not? Even then it's difficult to judge due to age, experience, teams, mentalities, circumstance and luck. This could go on and on...evil question

SouperComputer

grizi wrote:

Oh yeah - the F1 and WRC drivers have brilliant skills - not totally different but different enough that they wouldn't swap sports. I think that's the real test of whether they're comparable or not - would someone swap over or not? Even then it's difficult to judge due to age, experience, teams, mentalities, circumstance and luck. This could go on and on...evil question

Yea, its a toughie alright.

Im sure some drivers would convert very well. Of course a lot of names in rallying have cut their teeth in karting, Coleman comes to mind. Personally, I think rallying would suit me better. Hopefully ill scratch a few bob together later on in the year and have a crack at both and see how it goes.

Vegeta

SouperComputer wrote:

who is he?

I only know him on a first name basis I'm afraid cos he works with my brother (they maintain and convert cars to rally spec as well as restore old cars) but its Martin

ambro25

mike65 wrote:

The question is - who would you like to be in a car with if the unexpected happened?

If the unexpected is a blow up or such like, no-one else but myself

If the unexpected is a blow job or such like, I can think of a few famous females

mike65 wrote:

Who would be more likely to save your ass?

Dangermouse

MrPudding

SouperComputer wrote:

Not quite true, its easier to control a car that you have pitched into a slide, rather than one that comes out of the blue. I would argue that on the basis that a rally driver is more likey to initiate a slide that a circuit racer "might" be better able to cope with a sudden "hiccup"

I would have to agree with you here. Especially given that the speeds are much greater. There were a few occasions last year little Kimi had a "moment" where the back end stepped out a close to 200mph. He has shockingly fast reflexes.

And lets not even begin on Schumacher in the rain.

MrP