Software Engineer Salary Question

irishguy

IronMan wrote:

I'm on a IT graduate program with a very large semi-state. First year of the program. Basic salary is €31,000. Bonus of €3000 a year. On call allowance of €650 a month. Also get a pension, free broadband, free laptop, free mobile. Which is excellent. Not involved in programming at all, but in storage. Thought I'd miss code, but its being surprisingly and quite pleasent to forget how to invoke a method etc.

Am I gloating, quite potentially! That said, I worked for CPL before that, and was on €20,000. So I've seen what hell looks like.

Who are you working for and what are you doing? If you dont mind telling

IronMan

Who are you working for and what are you doing? If you dont mind telling

I joined the graduate program, thinking I would be working in ABAP scripting for a large SAP project that is underway. However I was made a member of the storage team. An area I never worked in, or had even heard much about. Still learning loads. We manage a very large Storage Area network, over 250TB of data, all to be backed up regularly. So loads of Veritas, EMC software, Fibre switches and so forth. So far I find it much more interesting than programming. I'd prefer not to directly name the company, its one of the big semi-states.

damnyanks

MrPinK wrote:

While they certainly make a fair bit more here alright, 60k is a bit of an exaggeration. The only 'grad' jobs I've seen offering near £40k are for PhD grads with 18 months commercial experience. That kind of money is certainly not the norm for grads.

It's for people with Undergrad. Generally companies paying 40k sterling don't advertise the fact they pay such a good salary. This helps weed out the applicants I'd imagine as people dont apply based on the salary alone.

Who are you working for and what are you doing? If you dont mind telling

I joined the graduate program, thinking I would be working in ABAP scripting for a large SAP project that is underway. However I was made a member of the storage team. An area I never worked in, or had even heard much about. Still learning loads. We manage a very large Storage Area network, over 250TB of data, all to be backed up regularly. So loads of Veritas, EMC software, Fibre switches and so forth. So far I find it much more interesting than programming. I'd prefer not to directly name the company, its one of the big semi-states.

If you are in a role that isnt development generally you get paid more. The cost of training someone into a development role is quite high.

I wanted a development role originally when I joined the place I work now. They gave me a infrastructure / PM based role. It's much more fun, I deal with teams of developers and to be honest it looks quite dull. I like sitting down with them and looking at problems they have etc. but all they really do is sit at their desks and never see too far beyond the development area.

secret_squirrel

damnyanks wrote:

It's for people with Undergrad. Generally companies paying 40k sterling don't advertise the fact they pay such a good salary. This helps weed out the applicants I'd imagine as people dont apply based on the salary alone.

I find that very hard to believe. 40K Junior graduate jobs are seriously rare beasts.

A quick look on jobserve shows 1 job out of 40 odd at that kind of money. Any thats for someone with 3 years experience. As previously mentioned the only other that comes close is a PHd grad.

Far more realistic money for a IT graduate in london is 28-33 Sterling.

Care to post a link?

PDelux

I started on 30k as a grad engineer in Dublin couple of years ago.
Depends on the company but can expect usually 3-4% increase every year after that.
Also bonuses and stock options, pension scheme, healthcare.

pilson

Does anyone know what the word is on IBM?
I was recently accepted into the extreme blue program (based in mulhuddart) and was wondering what the starting salary is out there(assuming I'm offered a job at the end of the programme.). I do not start out there until the Summer so will not have a chance to ask someone in the company in the meantime...:rolleyes:

damnyanks

secret_squirrel wrote:

I find that very hard to believe. 40K Junior graduate jobs are seriously rare beasts.

A quick look on jobserve shows 1 job out of 40 odd at that kind of money. Any thats for someone with 3 years experience. As previously mentioned the only other that comes close is a PHd grad.

Far more realistic money for a IT graduate in london is 28-33 Sterling.

Care to post a link?

As I stated they don't advertise the actual amount they pay. I think the only company that does that would be Barclays capital (Or whatever their investment wing is called). The likes of accenture pay 32k. Investment banks pay higher.

The perks can also be quite good. At Morgan Stanley you get a strong salary plus something like 3 months training.

These aren't grad job's but rather grad programs. Same thing in my view, perhaps you see it in a different view.

Either way I know what the rates are in a few of these places and they are defenitly above what your posted

cousin_borat

damnyanks wrote:

Either way I know what the rates are in a few of these places and they are defenitly above what your posted

Originally Posted by secret_squirrel
I find that very hard to believe. 40K Junior graduate jobs are seriously rare beasts.

Damnyanks, it looks like you're actually agreeing with secret_squirrel when you say "a few of these places"
The only place I know thats pays graduate salaries of 40K plus (usually quite a bit more) is the US, the reason being that these Graduates have huge debts to pay after college. That is simply not the case in Ireland and less so in England so the rates mentioned here are accurate.

The Corinthian

You’re not in the civil service (at least the majority of you) and no one feels obliged to give you a raise simply because it gives them a warm fuzzy feeling to do so or because you happen to have been in the firm for X amount of time.

The reality is that you seek out and negotiate your own salary. This is especially true in many SME’s, where there’s a lot of leeway for such negotiation, based upon the market, how much business they’re doing and your own skill set. As long as you don’t overtly try to blackmail them or make the fatal assumption that you’re indispensable (even if you are, you’re not) you can increase what you earn substantially. God helps those who help themselves.

As an example, a number of years ago the CTO of the firm I worked for quit. Suddenly, the directors decided they’d have pay reviews for all the senior developers. I was brought out to lunch and told I was being given a 20% raise (I was already on good money for the time). I politely responded that I would “have to think about it” - which visibly threw them. A day later they added another 20% to the raise offer.

My point is that you have to look to more money and negotiate for it if you want it. Otherwise, in the case of most companies there’s no incentive for them to pay you any more.

silverside

from my knowledge there is kind of a celing at ~ 50k for developers that, to get more than that, you have to either move into management, or be very specialized/good at your job beyond just having say 5 yrs experience. UK salaries are a bit higher but then living expenses etc are too.

dunno what graduate salaries are at now but 25k sounds about right if you have a degree

rsynnott

I seem to remember seeing some truly outrageous figure for Prolog programmers...

irishguy

rsynnott wrote:

I seem to remember seeing some truly outrageous figure for Prolog programmers...

But Prolog is mostly an academic language with a very simple syntax any programmer could pick it up, don’t see why you would pay more for it. Don’t even see why you would use it to be honest

JimmySmith

Ask anyone who is on a high salary and they will tell you that they got the biggest jumps when they moved company.
Most companies will not give high raises to current employees because they dont have to attract them to the company anymore.
How many times have you seen a person on similar experince as yourself come in on a higher salary?
They have to offer them more to break the bonds they have with their current company. Bottom line is you get more when you move than when you stay. Your employer will be counting on your inertia when it comes to salary review time.

rsynnott

irishguy wrote:

But Prolog is mostly an academic language with a very simple syntax any programmer could pick it up, don’t see why you would pay more for it. Don’t even see why you would use it to be honest

A lot of people seem to find it very difficult to write in. I'm not sure why; I quite like it myself. It tends to be used in expert systems.

secret_squirrel

JimmySmith wrote:

They have to offer them more to break the bonds they have with their current company. Bottom line is you get more when you move than when you stay. Your employer will be counting on your inertia when it comes to salary review time.

The key to that is that even if you are happy where you are it doesnt hurt to look around - especially around salary review time. Makes a useful negotiation tactic.

OMcGovern

JimmySmith wrote:

Ask anyone who is on a high salary and they will tell you that they got the biggest jumps when they moved company.
Most companies will not give high raises to current employees because they dont have to attract them to the company anymore.
How many times have you seen a person on similar experince as yourself come in on a higher salary?
They have to offer them more to break the bonds they have with their current company. Bottom line is you get more when you move than when you stay. Your employer will be counting on your inertia when it comes to salary review time.

Wise words. In my earlier years ( 10 years in the I.T. business ), I had 6 jobs in 6 years. You could add at least 4k per jump ( in the good old days before the dot com bubble burst ). Most employers will, by default, only offer 3% wage increases "in line with inflation". The truth is that they have to pay recruitment agencies at least 4k to hire your replacement...... and that doesn't include all the "product knowledge" you have.

You can't overplay that card, each and every year.
You really need to have shined in your work, and made an impression.
The main thing I've learnt.... if you're not happy, money means nothing.
You'll get used to your new salary fairly soon and it's easily spent.

If you've got the skills and experience, then ask for more design work, team leadership etc. If you don't have the design or people skills for the work, then you should realise that you're probably on the right salary for you at this stage in life.

Hope this realism helps a few people,
regards,
Owen

cousin_borat

Agreed. In ordere to move to the higher salaries a developer need to move into project management or become a functional expert in a particular vertical

dingding

secret_squirrel wrote:

The key to that is that even if you are happy where you are it doesnt hurt to look around - especially around salary review time. Makes a useful negotiation tactic.

Agreed

secret_squirrel

cousin_borat wrote:

Agreed. In ordere to move to the higher salaries a developer need to move into project management or become a functional expert in a particular vertical

Broadly true but not always. There's always a small amount of room for Technical Architecture and Lead Designer type roles.

One of the best companies I worked for had this idea down to such a good degree that there were twin career tracks - 1 Departmental/Project Management and the second Architechture and Senior Technical lead roles. This almost completely separated really Technical staff from their more People oriented peers.

The third option for a real techie is the expert contractor role. Develope a reputation as one of them and you can do very well indeed.

damnyanks

Place I work has a architecture department. It's very specialised, they generally develop large systems for messaging etc.
Would imagine its quite well paid

Morpheus

The key to that is that even if you are happy where you are it doesnt hurt to look around - especially around salary review time. Makes a useful negotiation tactic.

Surely you dont mean negotiation by intimidation?

i.e. your in the office with your boss, you both sit down to amicably discuss your recent work and your future within the company, he makes an offer that he thinks you cant refuse, and you reply with...

Well ive been looking around and i could get 'x' ammount working for 'y' company, so ... show me the money.

is this not a bit threatening? would the following approach not suit better?

Ive been looking around and based on market prices i could reasonably expect to command x ammount, I can back it up with printouts from the various salary surveys, do you think that based on my work over the last y ammount of time, that Im worth something within that region to the company?

or have you another suggestion as to how to broach the subject? Ive never had to negotiate salary's before, but its settling down slave to the mortgage beast time and i need an injection of cash flow on my bank statements, plus ive been here over a year and a half with no pay rise.

Zaph0d

Morph&#233 wrote: »

Well ive been looking around and i could get 'x' ammount working for 'y' company, so ... show me the money.

is this not a bit threatening?

Yes, this approach will likely fail.

would the following approach not suit better?

Ive been looking around and based on market prices i could reasonably expect to command x ammount, I can back it up with printouts from the various salary surveys, do you think that based on my work over the last y ammount of time, that Im worth something within that region to the company?

This is better but it could still come across as aggressive and the boss may not believe that you could be bothered getting another job.

The most you can reasonably look for is your market rate. If you manage to negotiate to a level beyond this based on your company specific knowledge, you put your job at risk. Nobody likes being forced into unfair deal. So the best thing is to raise your market rate as high as possible through training and choice of skills and then apply for other jobs. As an aside, your market rate may be raised more by improving your documentation and communication skills such as listening as against further technical skills.

When talking to your boss, salary negotiations are traditionally presented as a problem you need help with. 'Boss I have a problem. I like the stuff I work on here and it's going well but I think my salary hasn't kept pace with the going rate and now I have been made a job offer by another company.' If the tone of your conversation comes across as a whine this will be less effective than if you seem to be trying to sort out the problem. Ask if there is anything you can do to help get a rise to a fair level. Applying for another job while working is a hassle but it's usually very well worth it.

The Corinthian

Morph&#233 wrote: »

Surely you dont mean negotiation by intimidation?

i.e. your in the office with your boss, you both sit down to amicably discuss your recent work and your future within the company, he makes an offer that he thinks you cant refuse, and you reply with...

Well ive been looking around and i could get 'x' ammount working for 'y' company, so ... show me the money.

is this not a bit threatening? would the following approach not suit better?

Never ever threaten in a negotiation unless you’re willing to have your bluff called. I’ve known of situations where managers have been told “an X% raise or else” and have responded with showing the employee the door. Even in the scenario you present, a manager could well call your bluff, give a vague promise, but never actually deliver, in the knowledge that it’s more than likely that you won’t jump ship.

Subtle hints that you’re looking for something else work best, as there is no bluff to call. An old one is, around review time, take a morning off to go to the ‘dentist’, have a good lie in and then come into the office wearing your interview suit. No threat is made, but the message will be read, loud and clear.

Morpheus

I could do with a lie in

masterK

silverside wrote:

from my knowledge there is kind of a celing at ~ 50k for developers that, to get more than that, you have to either move into management, or be very specialized/good at your job beyond just having say 5 yrs experience. UK salaries are a bit higher but then living expenses etc are too.

Not true, I'm a developer an earn nearer the 60k bracket. As somebody pointed out the key is to move around a bit for two reasons. When you join a new company they will almost always improve your salary, so in your early years in development move every 2 years. Secondly the more companies you work for the wider you experience is, you will have worked with more technologies, different methodogies and diffferent working environments, thus increasing your value.

Another gem that has worked for me down the years is, if you think that telling your boss your leaving will cause him to try to persuade you to stay go out and get a different job, tell your boss the salary and conditions are much better and see will he match it.

bonkey

The Corinthian wrote:

Never ever threaten in a negotiation unless you’re willing to have your bluff called. I’ve known of situations where managers have been told “an X% raise or else” and have responded with showing the employee the door.

I'd show any employee who used the "or else" line the door.

Negotiation and ultimatums are entirely seperate things, and the latter should never be confused as a legitimate form of the former.

Same logic for employees who find another job and look for a "counter-offer". My answer would always be "the counter-offer is that you turn them down and stay here in your current position with no change".

Subtle hints that you’re looking for something else work best, as there is no bluff to call. An old one is, around review time, take a morning off to go to the ‘dentist’, have a good lie in and then come into the office wearing your interview suit. No threat is made, but the message will be read, loud and clear.

I've always believed that if you can't just negotiate honestly, you need to change job anyway.

This cuts both ways. If you can't ask for the reasoning behind what you're offered...you need to change jobs. If you can't accept the reasoning once given...you need to change job. If, as an employer, you think that what you're willing to offer the employees is not open to discussion....expect to lose a lot of staff.

As a result, I (with an employer's hat on) would "mark you down" for such subtle approaches, and "mark you up" for saying I'd have expected a bit more, but would like to hear your reasoning for the offered figure when the negotiationgs actually started.

Then again...I'm one of those strange people who believe that both staff and management deserve to be treated with fairly.

jc

yop

The joy of been on the East coast, at least you can move and are not been rode as far as salary goes!!

I am working in IT for 9 years, 6 of these as a programmer (VB, .NET, SQL Server, C++), started off in tech support, then sys admin (Unix, NT) on hardware engineer and last 6 years in programming and I am only on late 30's!

But I am down West with lowish house price, standard of living meant to be better and fook all traffic!! Still don't enjoy not getting paid right!!

stevenmu

Companies like loyalty, they don't want to give you a big raise because you threatened to leave, only for you to leave next year anyway. I think using the pay surveys is a good idea, aswell as a list of reasons you think you should be on the top end of whichever bracket is applicable. Things like product knowledge, or expertise in areas the others are weak in.

The trick is to make your employers think that you're worth more to them then the salary you want.

bonkey

masterK wrote:

When you join a new company they will almost always improve your salary, so in your early years in development move every 2 years.

The counter-point to this is that when the bubble burst, I knew so many people who ended up :

- being amongst the first to get the chop, cause they had a track-record of shofting jobs anyway

- ended up taking pay-cuts, cause they had used this trick to get their salaries above what the market realistically should have paid them

- lost out in future interviews, cause companies picked ppl who stayed 3-5 years over the 2-years-and-go crowd every time.

There is no "get rich quick" strategy that is guaranteed to work. Its as simple as that.

jc

JimmySmith

Here's what i've done over the last 6 years or so in IT.
Stay in your first company for at least 2 years. You will learn a lot and are really useless to another company before you have at least 2 years under your belt anyway. (It is very common to walk into a job and the guys there for 5 years are on the same or less money than you.)

When you are there 2 years. Look at the guys who have been there over 5 years. You probably feel sorry for them. They are staying becuause they are afraid of change and somtimes are just afraid of doing an interview anywhere else.

After that you either go contracting or you just send off your CV every year.
Send it off around review time and go to interviews. The IT world in Dublin is so small your boss will know about it anyway. What i have found happens is that i get a job with a very big increase compared to what i am on. I find i like the idea of moving much more as i will be exposed to new ways of doing things etc.

In years 3 and 4 i increased my salary by 25% each year doing this, but the more usual increase you should be looking for to move is at least 10 - 15%.

When you get offered a job you can take it or leave it, but the new company will be well aware that they need to give you a healthy increase in salary to get you there so have a bottom line for yourself.

There are also other things of worth such as working from home 2 days a week etc, which might attract you to stay or go.

Doing this you have looked and tried to increase your lot, but when you get offered a job you have a choice. Some people are just not able to make the move no matter what the new offer is. This is the inertia i was talking about earlier. Again look around and you'll see it in the long term employees.. For myself and anyone i know, once your CV goes to the agencies you ALWAYS end up getting a better job and leaving.

Remember, when it comes to increasing your lot there are 2 points of view. The employers and the employees. And you will see that everywhere - including this thread at some point i think.
You wont see an employer suypporting doing what i've just said. In fact you'll see that they oppose it strongly. Long term employees start to think much like the employers too. They need to justify their reasons not to even look to see what else is out there. I've worked in some great companies but by sticking to my little Mantra of - IT NEVER HURTS TO LOOK - i've done at least 50% better than anyone i know with the same experience. In fact i would say i have a more varied experience than the guy who has been working on the same project for a few years and even have my own company on the side now as an offshoot of a job i've had.

To summarise -
Always have in mind what you are worth.
If you are happy with where you are (this includes your salary) then there is no need to move.
If you are not happy dont just sit there and suffer foirever.
Dont try to bully or blackmail your boss - They are just doing their job too.
But DO Look around to see whats out there.