Liverpool vs Arsenal (will contain scores)

BlackWizard

gracehopper wrote:

IMO Liverpool are one player short of been real title contenders

No there not. They need a 20 goal a year striker, a centre half to replace hypia (maybe palleta) and a right winger. Even then they wouldnt have the squad that chelsea have.

I dont see why Fowler and Morientes wont do for strikers. Liverpool need a
right winger and a center back to replace Hyypia.

"No there not". Its possible that we could do without a backup defender for
Hyypia and I firmly belive that Fowler is a excellent striker still and that Morientes
will come to form soon.
So its possible that "YES THEY ARE".

On paper chelsea are great. Their performances this year have been ok too.
Although they have been lucky with a few late 1-0 wins. None the less
with the main teams like Arsenal, United and Liverpool not being on form at
all its unsurprising that they are in the position they are in at the moment.

You have a very pessimistic narrow minded view on things. There is nothing
to say that Liverpool cant be title contenders if they keep their current
form and bring it into next season with a new right winger and Gerrard back
in position, that Liverpool cant aim high.

mike65

4 years ago they would be title condenters but now any team that looses more than about 2 games is out of the running!

Morientes sadly is'nt going to "find it" again not in the prem anyway. Agger will ease out Hyypia over the next 6 months.

Mike.

PHB

Gerard is doing a good job at RW as has been said already and Gonzalez is on his way next season. So in my opinion Liverpool (who are contending strongly for 2nd this year as it is) are only 1 player, a striker, away from being title contenders.[\quote]

The following players Liverpool need to challenge with Chelsea,
2 top class strikers
1 top class left back(Riise is not good enough defensivly, is in reality a wing back, which unfortunately, much to my dislike, no longer is a valid position in the modern game)
1 top class midfielder(Hamann has only got a season left, Sissisko isn't there yet, to compete with Lampard-Makelele-Essien, you need somebody of Essiens quality, which isn't an easy find in todays market. Lets not forget their squad cover of Maniche\Gudjohnson/Diarra, but squad cover comes from the squad players, which can be found easily)
1 top class CB, i'm not talking about 3 squad players, I'm talking Carvalho good. One of these guys might come good, but I havn't heard a Liverpool fan yet who thinks they will. That said, Palleta is meant ot be a class player.
1 top class winger(atm Liverpool have no top class wingers, just Gerrard who is in reality a CM, and if he isn't, you need a top top top class CM to replace him)

When you play a defensive styled game, which Rafa does, you need absolute quality up front, the likes of say Lampard, Robben\Duff, Cole\SWP, Crespo\Drogba

Liverpool atm have the Lampard in Gerrard. They have none else. To even begin to compete, they need to totally buy a new attack line, which is way more expensive than buying a new defensive line.

That said, They have an incredible young core on which to build on, Reina, Carragher, Alonso, Gerrard, probably the second best center core after Chelsea.

Perhaps Liverpool are one player away from being able to beat any team on their day, but to challenge Chelsea over a season, a top class squad is required, or at least a top class 14 with a strong youth team coming through.

As Mike said, years ago they would have a team, but the bar has been raised so high.
Lets hope post world cup, Chelsea players are going to start wanting to play, and their squad could get smaller or MOurinho could move on

cruiserweight

PHB wrote:

1 top class CB, i'm not talking about 3 squad players, I'm talking Carvalho good.

Carvalho and world class in the same sentence with the word not does not make any sense to me

Liverpool at the moment need a top class striker and a right winger!

el rabitos

The following players Liverpool need to challenge with Chelsea,
2 top class strikers
1 top class left back(Riise is not good enough defensivly, is in reality a wing back, which unfortunately, much to my dislike, no longer is a valid position in the modern game)
1 top class midfielder(Hamann has only got a season left, Sissisko isn't there yet, to compete with Lampard-Makelele-Essien, you need somebody of Essiens quality, which isn't an easy find in todays market. Lets not forget their squad cover of Maniche\Gudjohnson/Diarra, but squad cover comes from the squad players, which can be found easily)
1 top class CB, i'm not talking about 3 squad players, I'm talking Carvalho good. One of these guys might come good, but I havn't heard a Liverpool fan yet who thinks they will. That said, Palleta is meant ot be a class player.
1 top class winger(atm Liverpool have no top class wingers, just Gerrard who is in reality a CM, and if he isn't, you need a top top top class CM to replace him)

i dont think the only way to beat chelsea is to replicate them player for player all over the pitch

i would regard kewell as a top class winger, he's been in great form and looks like he's enjoying his football again.

i'd agree about risse, he's not a good enough left back, and not a better winger than kewell, so i dont know where that leaves him. i dont think liverpool are as bad off as ur making them. agger and palletta will be there in good shape for next year i'd imagine, one of them will push hyypia for his place, i think appart from a left back the defence is fine.

needing a striker is all well and good, but who would u buy if you were in charge? name a top english striker that pool would get for less than 15 million, or any proven striker thats played in the premiership. taking in a foreigner is always a risk.

last night was painfull to watch, seeing liverpool completely dominate and not score was very frustrating

astrofool

Liverpool should have bought Yakubu, in fact, they should probably swap crouch/morientes and cisse for one striker like that. Of course that would leave Fowler up front by himself. I wonder would Mellor come back and learn off Robbie.

The Clown Man

cruiserweight wrote:

Carvalho and world class in the same sentence with the word not does not make any sense to me

Liverpool at the moment need a top class striker and a right winger!

Carvalho is without a doubt world class.

Necronomicon

astrofool wrote:

Liverpool should have bought Yakubu

I'm really surprised more teams didn't go in for Yakubu, especially given his age. I think someone like him is just what Liverpool need.

BlackWizard

PHB wrote:

The following players Liverpool need to challenge with Chelsea,
2 top class strikers
1 top class left back(Riise is not good enough defensivly, is in reality a wing back, which unfortunately, much to my dislike, no longer is a valid position in the modern game)
1 top class midfielder(Hamann has only got a season left, Sissisko isn't there yet, to compete with Lampard-Makelele-Essien, you need somebody of Essiens quality, which isn't an easy find in todays market. Lets not forget their squad cover of Maniche\Gudjohnson/Diarra, but squad cover comes from the squad players, which can be found easily)
1 top class CB, i'm not talking about 3 squad players, I'm talking Carvalho good. One of these guys might come good, but I havn't heard a Liverpool fan yet who thinks they will. That said, Palleta is meant ot be a class player.
1 top class winger(atm Liverpool have no top class wingers, just Gerrard who is in reality a CM, and if he isn't, you need a top top top class CM to replace him)

Perhaps Liverpool are one player away from being able to beat any team on their day, but to challenge Chelsea over a season, a top class squad is required, or at least a top class 14 with a strong youth team coming through.

You dont have to have exact replicates of another football team
just to beat them. Im not sure if you do watch much football but in general
two teams usually differ in style of play and individual on paper quality.

It almost always comes down to the best team on the day wins. If the game
really worked the way you say it does then why is arsenal (its not just them)
with such a great individual player base in the postition they are at.

Tusky

BlackWizard wrote:

I dont see why Fowler and Morientes wont do for strikers. Liverpool need a
right winger and a center back to replace Hyypia.

Morientes isnt scoring and is missing chances...Fowler cant play 90 minutes. Rafa just bought Agger and Paletti at the end of the season, what are you talking about ?!?!?

I think the best move in the summer would be to buy first and foremost, a right winger and is possible 2 strikers. Sell Cisse, Morientes & Crouch. They arent good enough. Hopefully by then Sinama will be back and in better form and maybe Mellor will be ready also.

BlackWizard

Thats just my opinion. I know what he is capable of.

He has been having to play up front for a very defensive side and a side that
really has no creative freedom. Gerrard could provide some interesting balls
for him to work with and being able to play off a actual striker like Flowler
might bring him back on form.

Your willing to wait on Sinama and not Morientes? Wait till he is in a side with
a attacking right midfield and Gerrard back in center mid and a decent partner
like Fowler to play with before you write him off.

Tusky

BlackWizard wrote:

Thats just my opinion. I know what he is capable of.

He has been having to play up front for a very defensive side and a side that
really has no creative freedom. Gerrard could provide some interesting balls
for him to work with and being able to play off a actual striker like Flowler
might bring him back on form.

Your willing to wait on Sinama and not Morientes? Wait till he is in a side with
a attacking right midfield and Gerrard back in center mid and a decent partner
like Fowler to play with before you write him off.

You make some good points but it simply comes down to the fact that he has had plenty of chances...regardless of right wingers or where Gerrard is playing and he isnt converting those chances to goals.

eyerer

mori hasn't been as anonymous since fowler's return but he's still missing chances
last night i was thinking if the chances mori had had fallen to fowler, something would have gone in

its also really highlighted how poor crouch is at heading the ball, not just goal attempts either....no power in them whatsoever


i'd like to see a RW and striker in summer. i also agree that LB will be up for consideration, but its not as big a problem, riise did well during that good spell.
this palletta one is supposed to be good, river plate were well pissed off they didn't get him and despite my limited knowledge, i know RP are a good team. he also claimed he'll be pushing for the first 11 as soon as he arrives, which is what i like to hear

Chucky the tree

Tusky wrote:

I think the best move in the summer would be to buy first and foremost, a right winger and is possible 2 strikers. Sell Cisse, Morientes & Crouch. They arent good enough. Hopefully by then Sinama will be back and in better form and maybe Mellor will be ready also.

I dont get this idea.


What excactly have sinama and mellor proven that crouch or morientes hasnt? I will accept mori has been given a chance and missed some sitters.

But i have been pleased with crouch. I would certainly much prefer too see him in the starting lineup then sinama, and definitly Mellor. If it was a choice between keeping Mellor or crouch, i certainly know which one i would prefer, and thankfully rafa feels the same.

eyerer

i dont believe pongolle has been given an extended run in the team, which mori has

Tusky

eyerer wrote:

i dont believe pongolle has been given an extended run in the team, which mori has

exactly...hes also alot younger than Morientes who is about as sharp as a hammer these days.

Chucky the tree

Tusky wrote:

exactly...hes also alot younger than Morientes who is about as sharp as a hammer these days.

So hes younger? right, so why stick an one of the youth strikers in there aswell?


Mori has proven it at every level, sinama hasnt, nor has Mellor. Mellor has proven nothing.

You still havent answer why you think Mellor is worth keeping over crouch?

Tusky

Chucky the tree wrote:

So hes younger? right, so why stick an one of the youth strikers in there aswell?


Mori has proven it at every level, sinama hasnt, nor has Mellor. Mellor has proven nothing.

You still havent answer why you think Mellor is worth keeping over crouch?

I think Sinama/Mellor could be good substitue strikers. If Liverpool are going to play Fowler, I think they need someone with pace along side him...which neither Morientes or Crouch have. I also think Crouch is very easy to defend against..specially when Liverpool play top teams.

Chucky the tree

Tusky wrote:

I think Sinama/Mellor could be good substitue strikers. If Liverpool are going to play Fowler, I think they need someone with pace along side him...which neither Morientes or Crouch have. I also think Crouch is very easy to defend against..specially when Liverpool play top teams.

Since when has Mellor been such a speed demon and hard to defend against?

Tusky

Chucky the tree wrote:

Since when has Mellor been such a speed demon and hard to defend against?

Never said he was...but I think hes a good prospect for the future.

Jivin Turkey

Mellor is not good enough for Liverpool and never will be. Warnock is in a similar position IMO, but may be ok as back up.

A lot of Liverpool fans have a very romantic notion of all the local lads that come through the youth team, but its been four years since anyone of note came along and actually done anything. Mellor or Warnock will not change that.

eyerer

Chucky the tree wrote:

Mori has proven it at every level,

except in the premiership...
La liga and CL (for another team) aren't the same thing

Chucky the tree

eyerer wrote:

except in the premiership...
La liga and CL (for another team) aren't the same thing

its still alot more then Mellor.

Guy:Incognito

Chucky the tree wrote:

What excactly have sinama and mellor proven that crouch or morientes hasnt? I will accept mori has been given a chance and missed some sitters.
.

Well for a start Mellor has a better goals to game ratio than crouch (21/6 Vs 34/7)


Crouch is a donkey, he's a 6 1/2 foot tall player who can't head a ball worth a damn.

Jazzy

liverpool need good strikers asap
mellor & warnock are great squad players... still think pongolle could be a talent on the right wing but not willing to take the risk.

striker to go for = defoe... so lets pray (wierdly) that spurs dont get into the champions league.
right winger = Joaquin. finally pool with a recognised WORLD talent that they bought... not brought up

eyerer

emile heskey wasn't recognised world talent?
liverpool's status has improved with the european cup win and better league performances, but theres still doubt over whether they could afford the likes of joaquin

BlackWizard

Im not sure on how to spell their names.

Mellor and Pongolle are not good enough for first team. Someone above
mentioned Pongolle for Right Wing but I dont think Id like him their either.

Pongolle I love seeing him on the bench and he is a very promising asset for
Liverpool. Its great to have a versatile Forward that can be brought during the
game that excites fans with a promise to work his socks off and to try his best.
He is small and trickey with pace and Im impressed with how much he keeps his
head up both literally on the ball and during the game psychologically.

Mellor on the other hand Im not impressed with. kinda reminds me of fowler. He
has a great idea of where he should be all the time and his teamwork when
attacking is good. But thats something that you need from the start of the game
and not something you want a subsitute to bring into the game.

Morientes has missed a few sitters and he found himself in situation where
he might of made something out of but Id still not write him off yet. Not
without seeing him play with a good striker partner.

Crouch I think has great potential. Wonderful control and great determination.
He is not a typical striker that has a natural gist of where to be for great
goal scoring opportunitys. But along side someone who has great anticipation
and can read the flow of play along with a understanding of Crouch, I think
that Crouch might find himself a center man for a strike partner to play off.
But he does need to work on his heading and either learn how to take one
defender on with without loosing the ball or learn how to delay the defender
from tackling by bluffing so that he can pass it off to support when the
team is on the fast break.

I actually havent noticed Riise not playing well. Ive been happy with him
because Im normally annoyed when the side backs dont attack. Now that
Riise attacks alot Im content with him.

Liverpool do need a right sided midfielder. I think Ill reinstall FM2005 and
buy fowler and then put myself in right midfield...

Guy:Incognito

BlackWizard wrote:

Mellor on the other hand Im not impressed with. kinda reminds me of fowler. He
has a great idea of where he should be all the time and his teamwork when
attacking is good. But thats something that you need from the start of the game
and not something you want a subsitute to bring into the game.

You cant deny his effectivness coming on last season, he played a handfull of games. He came on against Arsenal (or did he play form the start) and scored the winner. He came on against Olypiakos, scored the 2nd and set up Gerrard for the 3rd. Without either of which, that would have been Liverpools last nioght in the CL last season.

Necronomicon

Stekelly wrote:

You cant deny his effectivness coming on last season, he played a handfull of games. He came on against Arsenal (or did he play form the start) and scored the winner. He came on against Olypiakos, scored the 2nd and set up Gerrard for the 3rd. Without either of which, that would have been Liverpools last nioght in the CL last season.

Yep. And don't forget Pongolle's introduction at half time, seemed to energize the side, and scored the equaliser. Which makes this comment a tad unfair:

BlackWizard wrote:

Mellor and Pongolle are not good enough for first team. Someone above
mentioned Pongolle for Right Wing but I dont think Id like him their either.

PHB

Yeh, but what makes a player is over the long run.
NObody could deny Luis Garcia's influencial preformance in the CL, one of the best players of the tournie, but, is he good enough to play right wing for a side challenging for the premiership on a week to week basis? Barca didn't think so, and I don't think Liverpool fans or Rafa does either.

RE*AC*TOR

Garcia is a great player. Whether or not he should start every match is one thing, but he is a huge asset. He's always likely to do something. He needs to improve his pass completion rate. Its the only thing letting him down at the moment.

BaZmO*

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

Garcia is a great player. Whether or not he should start every match is one thing, but he is a huge asset. He's always likely to do something. He needs to improve his pass completion rate. Its the only thing letting him down at the moment.

Well that, and his stupid goal celebration. I'm convinced he only does it cos he knows how much it annoys me.

RE*AC*TOR

A lot of great players have stupid goal celebratios.

Davei141

It would be worse if he just stood there pouting like henry .

zAbbo

PHB wrote:

Yeh, but what makes a player is over the long run.
NObody could deny Luis Garcia's influencial preformance in the CL, one of the best players of the tournie, but, is he good enough to play right wing for a side challenging for the premiership on a week to week basis? Barca didn't think so, and I don't think Liverpool fans or Rafa does either.

Very rarely does he play right wing though, On tuesday he came on and played up front, and Cisse was right wing.

Luis Gracia, he drinks sangria.....

zokrez

Liverpool

Reina
Riise
Carragher
Hyypia
Finnan
Gerrard
Hamann
Kewell
Sissoko
Crouch
Morientes

Subs - Dudek, Garcia;) , Cisse;) , Traore, Krompkamp.

zokrez

Manchester United

Van der Sar
Neville
Vidic
Brown
Silvestre
Ronaldo
Fletcher
Richardson
Giggs
Rooney
Van Nistelrooy