Should we suppress the Irish language.. ?

Karlusss

Dear God, nothing like the old language debate to get the loonies out.

"ban Irish from the State", that's the most hilarious idea ever. Gardaí (sorry the polis) with truncheons outside the Conradh beating any old man who tries to sneak in for a pint.

Sammag

OK I'm really not getting this whole attitude of: "if we take the Irish language away from us there's nothing differentiating us from the English" Do people really think that's the only thing that makes the Irish different to the British?
Why are the Irish still so obsessed with the English? God – enough already...

I like a lot of the other posters on here, detested Irish in school and I still get the Leaving Cert nightmares about 4 times a year for the past 15 years. The basis of which is always centered around Irish class... I nearly always wake up in a cold sweat.

Living now in Oz has, on a few occasion made me think: "I wish I could speak more Irish" but in saying that - clearly I don't really think this that much or I would have gone out and bought myself an Irish Linguaphone course (or similar) by now and be gibbering away like Peig Sayers. There's nthing stopping any of us who say we "wish we'd listened more in Irish class" in taking it up now - but most of us just couldn't be arsed.

Personally I think the sound of the Irish language is rotten, I find it really harsh sounding and guttural. *Bleurgh*

If they're going to continue to teach it in Irish schools, I think they need to find away to improve the way in which it is taught to encourage students to enjoy learning it more and take a more proactive approach to learning it - like any other language aka French, German etc... However, I also feel after the Inter cert or whatever it's called now, Irish should not be compulsory.

When I was at this stage of my schooling, there were plenty of girls who would have willingly chosen it to study for their final 3 years at school, I on the other hand, like some others, would have preferred to have had the choice to pick another subject more relevant to my decided upon career path.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Who dug this up?

Anyway, it seems that irish is really limited to schools. There's nothing to help adults, nothing that's obvious anyway. I wish I was fluent in it but I never have the need to use it.

barbiegirl

We're Irish we have our own language and TnaG have done massive work in promoting the language in the last number of years. I speak it occasionally and wish I could speak more.
The way it is taught needs to be changed but it is our heritage and we should hold onto it.

Kev_ps3

No but we should suppress English and encourage Irish as our main language. The difference between Patriots and West-Brits on this fourm is huge.

djpbarry

useful_contacts wrote: »

So youd rather have a few extra cent in your pay packet each week than have no national language

It's more a question of what else could be done with those "few cents".

useful_contacts wrote: »

If you love england so much go live there

Jaysus, anyone who questions the state's commitment to the Irish language is a British imperialist? Get over yourself. It's the 21st century ffs.

Twinkle-star15

JaysusMacfeck wrote: »

Unfortuanatley the British themselves, god bless them, are taught a very filtered and cleansed version of history in school. Did you know that the Irish “famine” and ALL the other atrocities against the Irish by the British are completely non-existent in the British curriculum? Keep that in mind the next time an innocent English person visits Ireland, they have absolutely NO clue about the bloodshed in Ireland by the Brits for that past 800 years. They were taught that Ireland was a "troublesome nation" in the British empire for decades, etc, etc. The Scottish however include Irish history in their curriculum, you’d have a very different conversation with them.

Like we don't have a horribly biased version of history too! That's just how it works. And the famine was not a British atrocity against the Irish. They did actually do a lot to counter it, but they didn't understand the dependence of the Irish on the potato- the blight had also affected loads of other countries in Europe, but not to the same extent because they had more varied diets.

Rsaeire

I for one do not think the Irish language can be considered a strong link to what it means to be Irish. The majority of the population do not speak it and the majority of the population are not even fluent. I do not like the language, I think it is a waste to still be taught in school and I would be happy to see it abolished.

As I've already stated, the Irish language is not a strong tie to what it means to be Irish, it is merely a language that the vast majority of the population do not speak.

Tony_Montana

Rsaeire wrote: »

I for one do not think the Irish language can be considered a strong link to what it means to be Irish. The majority of the population do not speak it and the majority of the population are not even fluent. I do not like the language, I think it is a waste to still be taught in school and I would be happy to see it abolished.

As I've already stated, the Irish language is not a strong tie to what it means to be Irish, it is merely a language that the vast majority of the population do not speak.

True but maybe we should be making it a strong tie to what it means to be Irish:rolleyes:

It's a beautiful language and should never ever be abolished. Our anchestors struggled for years trying to keep it going and unfortunetly they couldn't keep it going like the Welsh did. But surely, as a nation we can get that back and make them proud.

Rsaeire

Tony_Montana wrote: »

True but maybe we should be making it a strong tie to what it means to be Irish:rolleyes:

It's a beautiful language and should never ever be abolished. Our anchestors struggled for years trying to keep it going and unfortunetly they couldn't keep it going like the Welsh did. But surely, as a nation we can get that back and make them proud.

I am sure there are people, like you, who wish for that to happen. The Irish language is not something I wish to be revived, reinvigorated or whatever phrase bests describes bringing the Irish language to the forefront of Irish modern society and incorporating it more at a systemic level throughout the country.

tba

why?

Rsaeire

tba wrote: »

why?

One reason is that I don't like the sound of the language; a personal reason, but a reason nonetheless. If the Irish language had any hopes of survival, then the government ruined it with how it is/was taught in school. A major reform would need to be taken, however, the 13 step, 20 year plan the government have agreed to will most likely not amount to much, if anything at all. Any faith in the current/last government is gone with the current/last government’s faults that we, as Irish citizens, have now to deal with.

I can speak for a lot of people, having discussed this issue with a wide range of people, that the language has died as it is not spoken prominently throughout the country, it is not optional in school and it is not taught sufficiently within school either. I agree that if the aforementioned items were looked into, and by looked into I mean seriously, efficiently and expediently, then the Irish language would at least have hope of survival and of nationwide adoption. Unfortunately, for those of you who wish the Irish language to experience a renaissance, I am very doubtful as to whether this will become a reality, or is merely an idealistic dream.

BennyLava

Like many others in this thread, I think the way its taught is the main problem, its not taught as a vibrant living language rather as a rather boring academic exercise

I don't believe that you have to have it to be Irish,it would be nice but it's not necessary, like any culture ours is constantly evolving, we take influences from abroad and regurgitate them in our own fashion,
the way we are and act today is as much Irish as the way our forefathers acted in their day,

Alot of those who push an Irish language agenda appear to want to revert our culture to an imagined bygone day, of everyone speaking irish and dancing at the cross roads, it never happened, its a fantasy get over it

In my mind the mark of a living culture is how it adapts to and adds to the world around it, we took the english language and through its medium reached new heights, Yeats, Beckett Wide etc..,

Saying all that one way you could increase the level of irish spoken would be if all education at primary level was conducted through Irish, while losing the compulsary status in secondary, i'd say you would be plesantly surprised how many would choose to continue to study it

cautioner

He was on the bus...in his pyjamas!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

branwen

Hi there!

I came across this thread whilst looking up info on the lrish language. I think it's great that so many (well, going by the poll) want to keep the language going.I noticed that a few were wondering about the Welsh language, and how we've managed to keep it going, and why so many people speak it now. There are a few reasons.

One thing, Wales doesn't have independence. Far from it. So Welsh has been used as something to set us apart from England. I've noticed that people see Wales as a part of England, and while that is true politically and by law, we don't see it that way, and the language has helped us with our identity.

Also, religion has kept it going. The only place where Welsh was really used was in churches/ chapels (Methodist I think). It was banned in schools, and it was treated as an inferior language and people were ashamed to use it in public.

In Wales, education is very important, so Welsh, on the whole, has been taught quite well. The education in Welsh medium schools are better than the English medium schools, so parents are sending them to the Welsh schools even if neither can speak Welsh themselves. There aren't enough places in the Welsh schools, as there's so much demand, and they're closing down English medium schools and making them Welsh medium. Also, there's a renewed national pride here, and people want a link to their heritage and culture. Also, parents are learning Welsh to keep up with their kids' homework etc.

There's also a culture attached to Welsh, such as the Urdd, and the Eisteddfod. So it's more than a language, it's a 'lifestyle' too. Wales is small country, and we have a population of 3 million. So the Welsh speakers are closer together, especially in the North and West. But there are lots in Cardiff and Swansea too. So it's more spread out.

Also, there are many jobs here that require Welsh. Especially in museums, the media and in politics. So there are incentives to use Welsh and people have more chances to use it in their daily lives, so they don't lose their ability to speak it. It is very much a living language. But this can be annoying for incomers (not just the English to be fair, I've seen Scots moaning about it as well) as they don't realise just how prevalent the language is until they get here, and they get a shock.

Welsh is now seen as a fun language and there's a lot of goodwill towards it. Also, a lot of Welsh actors/ singers are Welsh speakers such as Rhys Ifans, Matthew Rhys, Ioan Gruffudd, Cerys Matthews, Duffy, Super Furry Animals, Bryn Terfel. So it's seen as an Ok language now, kind of like 'well, they speak it and they're successful'. There's less shame.

But there are some downsides. There are people who are dead against the language, and want it to die out. They tend to be very pro- Britain and they hate Wales/ Welsh and everything that goes with it. They see themselves as British not Welsh. And they really hate us Welsh speakers! They reckon we're backwards and an embarrassment. To be honest, I think a lot of people have an inferiority complex about the language, and it still exists today. So, the stronger the language becomes, the more annoyed these people get. Also, a lot of people who come to live here (not just England, but it usually is) don't like the fact their kids are taught Welsh in schools, or that our signs are bilingual etc and think it encourages nationalism. Welsh is still seen as a nationalist language and that Welsh speakers are cottage burning English hating nationalists! But on the other hand you get some English who learn the language and send their kids to Welsh schools. So it's not all bad.

I'm sure I haven't covered it all, but I hope this has given you an insight into what happened in Wales.I'm sure that there are organisations in Wales who would be glad to help you out with your language, and show you how we did it. I think it would be a great shame in Irish died out, because it's a lovely language.

Oh, and congrats on your rugby win yesterday!

Diolch!
Thanks!

Well said, I've always considered that the use of Welsh in Wales should an insparation for Irish people who want the Irish language to become part of mainstream life rather than sidelined by most as it is now.
The main reason I often referred to welsh was because I lived in Fflint for a while, and even though only a few miles from England, Welsh was often heard.

branwen

Deleted User wrote: »

Well said, I've always considered that the use of Welsh in Wales should an insparation for Irish people who want the Irish language to become part of mainstream life rather than sidelined by most as it is now.
The main reason I often referred to welsh was because I lived in Fflint for a while, and even though only a few miles from England, Welsh was often heard.

What you need to do it artificially create a need for Irish. Create incentives and rewards, but make it fun too.
You could try talking to 'Cymdeithas yr Iaith' who basically rescued Welsh, and continue to push for more rights.
http://cymdeithas.org/english/
Also Cymuned (who are a bit full on) might be able to help too.
http://www.notenglish.com/

Also, 'Tynged yr Iaith' (the Fate of the Language) was a famous speech made by Saunders Lewis in 1962, that kick-started the whole Welsh language revival.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tynged_yr_iaith

Hwyl a phob lwc!
Good luck!

wylo

Thanks Branwen, great post , and the fact that you mention that there are pro-britain people trying to be dead set against it means you lot had an even harder time than us trying to get it going.
Because we dont have that problem, were just lazy and are put off by it because of the way its thought in school.

It took an American Ex-pat to help make it 'cool' again.

Im in my mid 20s now, I did pass Irish and got a C or something (everone knows pass Irish is peace) of piss. Its only now Im at the stage that I actually want to learn it again properly. I was better at Irish when I was 11 or 12 than I was when I was 19 or 20.

Breaktown

By the time I finished primary school, I was almost fluent in Irish. I loved it. Then I went to secondary school and it became all about the exams and not about the language. Then I hated it. I ended up doing ordinary level for leaving cert and now I can barely speak a word. But I'd really like to be able to speak it. I think Irish should be optional at leaving cert and it should be treated as a language and part of our culture rather than something that should be hated.

banshee_bones

I think the most emphasis should be put on the spoken word.

The grammar and structure is obviously very important but if they could somehow structure it to be more about the spoken word. I think when most of us think about Irish we think of the leaving cert paper and rigmarole that went with that or our time in the gaeltacht.

Edir: What im referring to is conversational day to day irish, so that it doesnt die out.

wylo

Well I know theres no fear of it dying out as such (Irish schools are getting more and more popular with young parents), but Id love to see more promotion for older people as well. I think The Sun recently had a cd or something ???

wylo

wylo wrote: »

Well I know theres no fear of it dying out as such (Irish schools are getting more and more popular with young parents), but Id love to see more promotion for older people as well. I think The Sun recently had a cd or something ???

Most people in my age group (mid 40's) think that I'm wasting my time trying to learn Irish as it's a "complete waste of time" and "is of no use at all".

Out local VEC recently ran a Beginners Irish lessons/conversation course, it was cancelled due to lack of interest, only me and three others applied.

branwen

I wouldn't give up just yet.

Ten years ago, Welsh was, where Irish is now. There was a lot of prejudice towards it, nobody liked it, Welsh speakers were treated as another species!
When I was in school, ten years ago, there was only one Welsh secondary school in my area, now there are four. We were called the 'Welshie kids' and people made fun of us and said that Welsh was a dead language so what was the point in speaking it. They taught Welsh as a second language in the English medium schools (like in Ireland I imagine) and the kids hated it. Because it's a really hard language to learn, and they found it boring. Now, because kids are being taught about things like the Welsh Not, and why the language is relevant to them, they appreciate it more. And they've made it more fun.

There has been a lot of opposition over the years, and it was a struggle to get the language to where it is now. There were loads of protests and people have even been to prison to get more rights. The rise of the language has also had a knock on effect on politics too. More people want us to have our more power over our own affairs, as we've got more confidence in our country and who we are. Welsh is a very political issue, and it there's always arguments about it.

What is Irish language TV like? Do you have Irish language soaps?
Our channel, S4C used to be really boring, about farming and stuff. But now the kids' shows are fun, and there are some good shows and documentaries. So people watch it more. And it's good for learners, as all the shows are subtitled.

Also, you'll often see pubs and cafes advertising 'learners hour' where people just get together and practice Welsh. People get together and read poetry and stuff too. Also, well known people are learning Welsh, such as our weather man on the national news, so it's in the publics' consciousness a lot more.
Maybe you could have like, meet-ups where people can just get together and have a laugh but learning Irish at the same time?

Breaktown- I agree with you. That's the reason Welsh was so unpopular. It was all exams and stress, and kids hated it. Now they've changed the way they teach it to be more about culture than exam marks.

I really wouldn't be so hard on yourselves about Irish. Reviving a language is really difficult, and we're not totally there yet.

May I ask a few things?
How come there are Gaeltachts? And what do most people think about them? I'm not that familiar with Irish culture, sorry.
Are there lots of Irish language songs, poems, books? Like folk songs and mythology?

Sorry for the massive posts!

neil_hosey

The Gaeltachts are pockets of native irish speaking areas. The number of people living in these areas is Id say below 100,000, and thats probably being generous.

There are thousands of poems, songs etc out there. If your interested have a look at a style of singing called Séan Nós (old style)... Iarla Ó Lionáird (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFUVn7884a4&feature=related) and Nell Ní Chróinín (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTj8yMK6HE8&feature=related) are too good examples.

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam

sofia11

I think some the other posts have very valid points here, especially about it not being compulsory past junior cert. Why is it compulsory? It would be interesting if the secondary students could make their own decision at that stage, why not? Is the dept of Ed afraid of what the result might be? It would be interesting. Even though we speak English we speak it with an Irish accent, Australians, New Zealanders, Scottish ....speak English but it doesn't make them English. We still have our music, sports, history which is all part of being Irish too. Perhaps more emphasis on spoken and allowing students to decide for themselves by Junior Cert. Other people have made a good point about the language being forced upon ALL students. If we could have made a decision ourselves we would have nothing to say about the compulsory nature of the irish language.

branwen

neil_hosey wrote: »

The Gaeltachts are pockets of native irish speaking areas. The number of people living in these areas is Id say below 100,000, and thats probably being generous.

There are thousands of poems, songs etc out there. If your interested have a look at a style of singing called Séan Nós (old style)... Iarla Ó Lionáird (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFUVn7884a4&feature=related) and Nell Ní Chróinín (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTj8yMK6HE8&feature=related) are too good examples.

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam

Lush! Thanks

neil_hosey

branwen wrote: »

Lush! Thanks

Thats not to say though that the only place where people speak irish is in the gaeltacht. In most towns in Ireland there is atleast one irish medium school.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AFRCWg_kOc thats also a good example...

Irish is doing well, but could be doing alot better. The over dependence on learning about poetry and mythology (pros / old short stories) is very difficult in leaving and junior cert, this should nearly be a subject in itself. It turns the irish exam into a memory test.

unreggd

The winning answer to the poll is the simple solution

It needs to be thought as a foreign language aka A LANGUAGE YOU DONT ALREADY SPEAK

Im finished school 3 years now and it still does me head in!

Carlotta

JaysusMacfeck wrote: »

After school, you began to travel around the world discovering different cultures and languages.. but hold on, you're continuously mistaken as an American or British citizen? American aint so bad, but to be mistaken as a British citizen is a bit of a kick in the nuts for a lot of us. It's also a kick in the heart when the majority of foreigners think that Ireland is apart of the UK.. It's a damn shame that, isn't it?

And why do foreigners think that? Because Ireland is an English speaking country, as is Scotland, and therefore due to out close proximity (amongst many other facotrs) we are assumed to be British. It’s a pisser that isn’t it? I’ve since educated and chastised many a Spanish/Italian/French ach mar shampla.. the Dutch and Germans are usually very well clued up on Irish history, and fair play to their education system for that.

Gawd, when I read the first part of the OP's post I got pretty angry!!!!

It was really driven home to me when i was traveling. people were fascinated with the idea we have our own language.
I was explaining the situation to a German guy, telling him how its our language but hardly anyone uses it. He looked at me straight in the eye and said in that matter of fact way only Germans can "Why not?". i really didnt have an answer for him and felt a bit ashamed.

Its sad that a lot of us only realize how great the Irish language is and how tragic it is we can't speak it when we get older (and hence less likely to learn it). The education system is a big part of the governments plan to promote Irish but i think they are beginning to learn they have done more harm than good.

neil_hosey

i was in Finland there about a week ago.. and got chattin to a girl at the bar, which turned into a fairly large argument where she was convinced Irish was a dialect of english.

She wouldnt believe me when i told her it wasnt ;/ baffling