Should we suppress the Irish language.. ?

dlofnep

Right, I'm off home.

To Joker: Stop complaining so much. You might crack a smile and live up to your name sometime. Get on with your life sir.. Seriously.

djpbarry

dlofnep wrote: »

The majority of people have no problem sending their children to school to learn Irish and ensure it survives.

If that’s the case, then you’ve nothing to fear in making it non-compulsory.

dlofnep wrote: »

Yes, because we all want to be scientists.

The point is science is of far more practical use than Irish.

dlofnep wrote: »

Oh yeah, I'm sure all the parents are fluent enough to teach their kids, or can afford trips to the Gaeltacht to teach them.

If they feel that strongly about it, they’ll find a way.

dlofnep wrote: »

Not really, because the fate of the other subjects is already set in stone, while the Irish language is on shakey grounds. Which is more the reason why to teach it during primary.

But I thought you wanted students to be able to make “informed” choices? What does the “fate” of the subjects have to do with anything?

astrofool wrote: »

While it's also nice to blame the curriculum for all of Irish's woes, this is a curriculum that was developed at the same time as English/Maths/French/Sciences/Business where Ireland has had nothing but success in education standards.

That’s not entirely true – maths and science subjects are not doing too well at leaving cert level these days.

dlofnep wrote: »

It will definately improve fluency, and thus - if you listened to the point I was making - Would give people a good basis on whether or not they wanted to continue studying the language.

Why should that only apply to Irish? The same argument could be made for just about any other subject.

dlofnep wrote: »

If not, then nothing to fear. They can go hang out with you. But if they did - What's the harm?

They’ve wasted a whole load of time learning a language they have no interest in? Time that could have been spent immersing themselves in a subject that they might actually want to do? That may actually be useful in later life?

dlofnep wrote: »

If you are referring to the Polish & Chinese nationals who moved here, then that's absolutely irrelevant to the topic at hand and a total red herring.

No, it isn’t. According to the last census, there are more Polish and Chinese speakers in this country than Irish speakers. It makes far more sense to me to have kids in Irish schools learn Chinese than it does to have them learn Irish.

dlofnep wrote: »

Science is not "essential". It's practical, not essential.

Irish is neither practical, nor essential.

Science 1 – 0 Irish

dlofnep wrote: »

The reality is the language needs support to survive.

Yes, it does, which suggests that the will does not exist among the general populace to keep it alive.

javaboy

dlofnep wrote: »

Right, I'm off home.

To Joker: Stop complaining so much. You might crack a smile and live up to your name sometime. Get on with your life.

The Irish language shouldn't be suppressed but debate should? Just kidding dlofnep.

I think in fairness Joker is entitled to have a whinge. He like most of us went through about 13 years of being forced to learn a language with very little practical use. In order to get the job he wanted, he had to have a sufficient level of expertise in a language he will probably not need to do his job.

That only breeds resentment of the language imo.

Marcus.Aurelius

javaboy wrote: »

Out of interest have you had cause to use it in AGS? And is it required for AGS anymore?

Thanks for your understanding!

I arrested someone before and read him his rights in irish as he lied through his backend that he could only understand irish. That was OK, but once it got to the station we had to find a cunning linguist to interview him etc in irish, which we managed to do.

After that, his tone soured quite a bit, his judge spoke fluently and threw the book at him for wasting the gardaí's time and the courts time.

javaboy

Joker wrote: »

Thanks for your understanding!

I arrested someone before and read him his rights in irish as he lied through his backend that he could only understand irish. That was OK, but once it got to the station we had to find a cunning linguist to interview him etc in irish, which we managed to do.

After that, his tone soured quite a bit, his judge spoke fluently and threw the book at him for wasting the gardaí's time and the courts time.

Yeah I know a GS who had a similar situation on traffic. She asked him as Gaeilge if the copy of the Evening Herald on the passenger seat was for the pictures.

astrofool

dlofnep wrote: »

That's a good question.

I believe that some children then would not be abale to avail of the language and later on regret it in life. I don't think it's in anyway constructive to remove the language in primary schools. Not in the least.

So we should force feed it to them anyway? Should we have every possible subject for primary schools in case someone regrets not having it later?

Irish fails all the tests for being a compulsary subject, the standard coming out is atrocious, and it's uses beyond school are, at best, whimsical. Some people want to send their children to Irish schools, not for being taught in Irish, but because the standard of the school is generally higher. This can eqaully apply to a high standard English speaking school (which are also oversubscribed).

javaboy

astrofool wrote: »

Irish fails all the tests for being a compulsary subject, the standard coming out is atrocious, and it's uses beyond school are, at best, whimsical.

With the requirement for AGS abolished, the practical uses are mostly teaching Irish :rolleyes: and translating for the EU.

Oh and the financial benefits of living in a Gaeltacht area.

Some people want to send their children to Irish schools, not for being taught in Irish, but because the standard of the school is generally higher.

I've said that to people before and been shot down. The very fact that parents will go out of their way to send their kids to a school which might be more awkward to get to implies they are probably taking a decent interest in their children's education. That alone would probably influence the standard of the school.

Earthhorse

Honestly, I think the language should be made a secondary language of the state, with less priority than English but still more than other languages, should only be compulsory at primary level and should not be an arbitrary requirement for anything (jobs or education courses).

It's nice to hear that the curriculum is being revised but I doubt any revision will be radical enough to effect the kind of changes that will revive the language. Nonetheless, I believe all of the above will have little to no effect on those who presently use or wish to use Irish, and may even strengthen their base, whilst allowing others to spend more time on what they regard as priorities.

Corega

There should be a fourth option on that poll to make the study of the language optional as opposed to mandatory. Give students the option of studying another subject instead of Irish.

When I was in primary school I had the choice of doing Latin or Irish, I chose Latin and I'm glad I did, however upon going to secondary school I was told I had no choice and couldn't be made exempt from studying Irish. And so began six years of me taking foundation Irish classes, having no interest throughout, sitting the foundation paper for the LC, recieving an A for said paper and getting zero points for it. Obviously that was an utter waster and I'd like the government to give me my precious time back.

Tigger

i was very good in school
i cant do language i can hardly do english i cant spell and i fing grammer hard

being forced to do irish an dthen being punished for not being able to understand was in my opinion very unfair

thefinalstage

Bah! This language is pointless. It takes years to learn and has no valid purpose. I would much rather speak German.

Then I could panzer fist all of you bastards.

Ace7

Corega wrote: »

When I was in primary school I had the choice of doing Latin or Irish. I chose Latin and I'm glad I did.

Why did you choose Latin? Do you use it a lot today?

If I lived in Ireland, I can't imagine how Latin would be more important or more useful than Irish.

The Chessplayer

The Chessplayer wrote: »

It's worth noting that Irish is not unique as a European language facing extinction. There are several other European languages that were widely spoken just 1 generation ago which are in a worse state than Irish. Irish, afterall, was phased out about 250 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_endangered_languages#Europe

Many of these are now regional dialects, rather than national languages, even though in the past some of these regions could have been intependant states.
It's also worth noting that some of these languages were almost wiped out by Hitler's gaschambers!

Earthhorse

Ace7 wrote: »

If I lived in Ireland, I can't imagine how Latin would be more important or more useful than Irish.

Most of the Meditarrenian languages, as well as a huge chunk of English, base themselves on Latin so it is a hugely useful language in terms of learning them.

It used to be compulsory in the Irish education system and personally I think it was a mistake to change that.

d0gb0y

I'm for keeping it, we have had it for so long & its important for us as a nation or state in the EU to hold on to our culture. Also we must respect the hard work that previous generations have put into the language and continue to try to improve its use & acceptance. It is as has been pointed out a beautiful lauguage that just needs a lot of work & we would be doing ourselves & future generations an injustice to not try to continue to support fund its development.
I think it should be compulsory in primary school & optional in secondary school(maybe the any spare money to fund science education). I 'd also like to see free courses available for adults in each community as I personally feel that you don't develop an appreciation for your culture till you are older.

arse..biscuits

I decided to start learning Irish last year. I went to the Gaeltacht for a week last summer, have been attending classes all year and i'm off to the Gaeltacht again on Saturday. I love learning Irish, I can't explain the enjoyment I get from it. I would encourage anyone thinking about learning Irish to just get started.
Whats this got to do with the thread?
Nothing really.

d0gb0y

d0gb0y wrote: »

I 'd also like to see free courses available for adults in each community .

I think that RTÉ & TG4 should be broadcasting Irish lessons aimed at adults (for all levels), either during the "twilight hours" or on a dedicated learning channel (along with other educational programming).

With DTT & Satellite channel capacity isn't a problem, it could easily share with another channel, most people have dvd (or video) recorders these days.

Just having an Irish language channel alone is insufficient to teach the language or to help with learning it, especially for beginners, who may only get one word in ten.

arse..biscuits

arse..biscuits wrote: »

I decided to start learning Irish last year. I went to the Gaeltacht for a week last summer, have been attending classes all year and i'm off to the Gaeltacht again on Saturday. I love learning Irish, I can't explain the enjoyment I get from it. I would encourage anyone thinking about learning Irish to just get started.
Whats this got to do with the thread?
Nothing really.

I'm learning as well, but not really had any oppertunity to use the language, except in helping the kids with their homework a two way experience- hopefully not "blind leading the blind!"

d0gb0y

Deleted User wrote: »

I think that RTÉ & TG4 should be broadcasting Irish lessons aimed at adults (for all levels), either during the "twilight hours" or on a dedicated learning channel (along with other educational programming).

With DTT & Satellite channel capacity isn't a problem, it could easily share with another channel, most people have dvd (or video) recorders these days.

Just having an Irish language channel alone is insufficient to teach the language or to help with learning it, especially for beginners, who may only get one word in ten.

Excellent idea

Aodan83

i know there are probably a lot of people sayin it shouldnt be compulsory in schools, but if the laguage isnt compulsory, noone is going to study it, which would be a terrible shame. but if it was taught more like french, with a greater emphasis on oral (giggidy) then maybe people would have been more ready to learn it. they are changin that right? if they are, pity they didnt do it sooner. if not, they should. maybe i should have read more than just the first page....

LordSutch

Deleted User wrote: »

I think that RTÉ & TG4 should be broadcasting Irish lessons aimed at adults (for all levels), either during the "twilight hours" or on a dedicated learning channel (along with other educational programming).

I would agree with TG4 broadcatsting Irish lessons, but RTE also .............. :cool:

djpbarry

d0gb0y wrote: »

I'm for keeping it, we have had it for so long & its important for us as a nation or state in the EU to hold on to our culture.

Definitions of culture:

• a particular society at a particular time and place
• the tastes in art and manners that are favoured by a social group
• the attitudes and behaviour that are characteristic of a particular social group or organization

From: wordnet.princeton.edu

Considering the language is only spoken by a small minority, I’m not sure it’s all that accurate to say that Irish is part of “our” culture. Besides, there are other aspects of our culture that are far more worthy of preservation in my opinion. For example, as is evidenced by this, some of our museums are in a pretty poor state (in terms of both structure and content). Why not leave the Irish to those that want to learn it and divert the excess funding to other (cultural) areas?

d0gb0y wrote: »

It is as has been pointed out a beautiful lauguage…

This is entirely subjective and means very little.

d0gb0y wrote: »

I 'd also like to see free courses available for adults in each community as I personally feel that you don't develop an appreciation for your culture till you are older.

So why not focus solely on those that actually want to learn?

Aodan83 wrote: »

i know there are probably a lot of people sayin it shouldnt be compulsory in schools, but if the laguage isnt compulsory, noone is going to study it, which would be a terrible shame.

You think it’s better to force the language on everyone and foster resentment toward it?

Aodan83 wrote: »

but if it was taught more like french, with a greater emphasis on oral (giggidy) then maybe people would have been more ready to learn it.

Not sure about that; how many people leave our education system with a high standard of French? Not many, I’ll wager. I had reasonably good French when I left school, but that was in spite of the schooling I received, not because of it.

Otacon

I have only dipped in and out of this thread, so I may have missed some details. In any case, I believe the Irish language is something we should hold on to as it separates us from everyone else. Its ours and no-one else is going to preserve it for us.

While I agree Irish should not be mandatory at Leaving Cert level, I do believe it should be up until the Junior Cert.

I have been living abroad for a year so far. Since I moved, I have begun to appreciate our culture all the more, and I believe our language is a big part of that. It not only affects the spoken word, but our music and literature as well.

As for teaching Irish using TG4 and RTE, this is a good idea. I don't think a new channel will need to be created.

LordSutch

Irish lessons should be 'optional' in primary school, Irish lessons should be 'optional' in secondary school, therby taking the pressure 'off' the language & giving it some breathing space which will allow it to flourish
& to be appreciated, "Irish lessons should be made Fun lessons" (instead of torture lessons) & I definately think Irish should be taught in schools with more emphasis on the spoken word rather than the written, I think conversational skills in Irish should be encouraged rather than the current repetitive brain numbingly boring time-wasting curriculum (which obviously hasnt worked & still doesnt work) I also think TG4 could be comissioned by the government to broadcast an Irish language tutorial programme, presented by Hector ?

I seriously suggest that the Welsh model should be unashamedly 'copied' & 'pasted' into the Irish education system, and I think that this will be the only way that future generations might grow to like/love and maybe even speak the Irish language, not just in the west, but also in pockets all over the country, just like Wales.

So I say 'dont suppress the Irish language' but encourage it to grow, not through 'forced' counter productive teaching, but by an 'unforced' 'unpressurised' 'optional' curriculum, in both Primary & Secondary School.

javaboy

ArthurF wrote: »

Irish lessons should be 'optional' in primary school, Irish lessons should be 'optional' in secondary school, therby taking the pressure 'off' the language & giving it some breathing space which will allow it to flourish
& to be appreciated, "Irish lessons should be made Fun lessons" (instead of torture lessons) & I definately think Irish should be taught in schools with more emphasis on the spoken word rather than the written, I think conversational skills in Irish should be encouraged rather than the current repetitive brain numbingly boring time-wasting curriculum (which obviously hasnt worked & still doesnt work) I also think TG4 could be comissioned by the government to broadcast an Irish language tutorial programme, presented by Hector ?

I seriously suggest that the Welsh model should be unashamedly 'copied' & 'pasted' into the Irish education system, and I think that this will be the only way that future generations might grow to like/love and maybe even speak the Irish language, not just in the west, but also in pockets all over the country, just like they do in Wales.

So I say 'dont suppress the Irish language' but encourage it to grow, not through 'forced' counter productive teaching, but by an 'unforced' unpressurised, optional curriculum, in both Primary & Secondary School.

This all seems fine.... except the Hector bit. I say they just rerun old episodes of Buntus Cainte. Anything but Hector.

Earthhorse

You can't really make anything at primary level optional can you? You'd have to re-vamp the whole system.

javaboy

Earthhorse wrote: »

You can't really make anything at primary level optional can you? You'd have to re-vamp the whole system.

Maybe the parents could make the decision for their children at that young age.

djpbarry

Earthhorse wrote: »

You can't really make anything at primary level optional can you?

There were optional, extra-curricular French classes in my primary school - they seemed to be reasonably popular.

Earthhorse

javaboy wrote: »

Maybe the parents could make the decision for their children at that young age.

What I meant was that there aren't elected subjects in primary like there are in secondary.

djpbarry wrote: »

There were optional, extra-curricular French classes in my primary school - they seemed to be reasonably popular.

Extra-curricular though, that's a different kettle of fish as far as I'm concerned.

javaboy

Earthhorse wrote: »

What I meant was that there aren't elected subjects in primary like there are in secondary.

I know it's a bloody disgrace. Time for this Gaeilge dictatorship to end! Democracy ftw!

In fairness it wouldn't take sweeping changes really. A lot of primary schools run concurrent Maths class for either stronger or weaker students. I know mine did. It wouldn't be a great stretch to have concurrent language classes where the languages happen to be different.