Bullbar

aledoux

Hi,

I am planning on buying a bullbar for my mercedes vito but somebody told me they are now illegal.
Is it right ?

Thanks

CJhaughey

Only illegal for manufacturers to sell them on the vehicle.

Mr Magnolia

Why would you do that? They're lethal dangerous, you'd give a pedestrian no chance.

On-Topic: AFAIK, they're illegal

Alun

OK, but they were made illegal to fit to a new vehicle for a very good reason, i.e. that they significantly increase the risk of severe injury to pedestrians in the case of an accident involving them. Do you want that on your conscience? It's a bit like all the questions we get here asking about the legality of seatbelts / child restraints etc. Just do what's right regardless of whether the law forces you to do it.

unkel

aledoux wrote:

I am planning on buying a bullbar for my mercedes vito

May I ask why? I might be wrong but I'm assuming you won't be driving the vito across fields filled with large farmyard animals

tw0nk

Actually Im wondering about this too, my uncle is buying a jeep and wants to get a bullbar on it, whats the exact standing of the law on this matter?

So as someone posted, its against the law to sell the jeep with the bullbar on it, but is it ok to put one on afterwards? is it against the law?

Without dragging this post into a big ethical debate, does anyone know?

Thanks

gaui3d0pnbz86o

there is a place called MR Bullbar at the airport, fits bullbars to most veichels(sp) give him a ring and im sure he will know the law

EDIT:
Mr Bull Bar Airport rd Santry Co Dublin 01 8420633

ps ive never used him or know him, just know he fits bullbars and may be able to shed some light for some people

Kermitt

AFAIK its illegal to sell a new vehicle with a bullbar fitted, but there's no law against fitting one as an aftermarket accessory. Very few genuine bull bars are available though, mostly the chrome 'A' bars that are cosmetic only.

A full bull bar wraps around the headlights and has a bonnet guard above the grille. It is also attached directly to the chassis in a very robust fashion. We had a pajero like this a few years back, Used on farmland mostly and took a few wallops from stray sheep and one cow!

These are a ridiculous accessory for a Vito though, Most modern vehicles are designed to crumple to absorb impact, whereas bull bars act as an extra impact.. more damage. More chance of bad things happening. Your front bumper will be safe but not a lot else.....

Alun

These are a ridiculous accessory for a Vito though, Most modern vehicles are designed to crumple to absorb impact, whereas bull bars act as an extra impact.. more damage. More chance of bad things happening. Your front bumper will be safe but not a lot else....

I've also read some evidence that having these things on the car can severely impact the way in which the airbag sensors detect collisions, thereby risking your airbag not going off when it should do. Not a clever idea, if you ask me.

tw0nk

Bianca Ancient Treasurer wrote:

there is a place called MR Bullbar at the airport, fits bullbars to most veichels(sp) give him a ring and im sure he will know the law

EDIT:
Mr Bull Bar Airport rd Santry Co Dublin 01 8420633

ps ive never used him or know him, just know he fits bullbars and may be able to shed some light for some people

Cheers, Il pass on the info,

Seth Brundle

Your insurance company could absolutely crucify you if you injure a pedestrian with these on and without notifying them.
I wonder would you also fail the NCT/DoE?

aledoux

Thanks very much for all the answers. I think a Vito looks pretty good with a bullbar. Why are people buying classic cars ? They are totally not safe on the road or even for pedestrian (not designed for that). Why are people driving classic cars because they think it looks good. I want a bullbar coz I think it looks good. I dont have airbag so I dont have that interference problem. Now if you were telling me that bullbar are dangerous for the passenger of my vito then I would reconsider my choice.
I will definitely contact my insurance company and my DOE center for more information of the impact of a bullbar.
By the way again this morning I saw land rover with land rover bullbar on !

Mr Magnolia

aledoux wrote:

Thanks very much for all the answers. I think a Vito looks pretty good with a bullbar. Why are people buying classic cars ? They are totally not safe on the road or even for pedestrian (not designed for that). Why are people driving classic cars because they think it looks good. I want a bullbar coz I think it looks good. I dont have airbag so I dont have that interference problem. Now if you were telling me that bullbar are dangerous for the passenger of my vito then I would reconsider my choice.
I will definitely contact my insurance company and my DOE center for more information of the impact of a bullbar.
By the way again this morning I saw land rover with land rover bullbar on !

Can you elaborate please, not sure I understand what you mean (bolded)

aledoux

Is there any research or statistics saying that bullbar would decrease the safety of the people travelling in the vehicle equiped with a bullbar except interfering with airbags.

Mr Magnolia

aledoux wrote:

Is there any research or statistics saying that bullbar would decrease the safety of the people travelling in the vehicle equiped with a bullbar except interfering with airbags.

What I mean is, are you not prepared to consider the safety of predestrians?

bazz26

I thought metal bullbars were illegal and plastic type ones were ok?

aledoux

Do you think a double decker Dublin bus with flat front is design to do little damage to pedestrians ?

Bluetonic

Bianca Ancient Treasurer wrote:

there is a place called MR Bullbar at the airport, fits bullbars to most veichels(sp) give him a ring and im sure he will know the law

EDIT:
Mr Bull Bar Airport rd Santry Co Dublin 01 8420633

ps ive never used him or know him, just know he fits bullbars and may be able to shed some light for some people

Ask for Barry Christie - the owner.

Mr Magnolia

aledoux wrote:

Do you think a double decker Dublin bus with flat front is design to do little damage to pedestrians ?

Never mind, you've confirmed what I thought.

prospect

aledoux wrote:

Now if you were telling me that bullbar are dangerous for the passenger of my vito then I would reconsider my choice.

In other words, you care about your friends and family in the Van, but feck the rest of us!

aledoux wrote:

Do you think a double decker Dublin bus with flat front is design to do little damage to pedestrians ?

I am sure they are not very pedestrian friendly, although they did not go out of their way to make the vehicles unsafe, which is what you are proposing to do.


God forbid you do knock down a pedestrian, and kill them. And the report shows that they would haev survived if there was no bullbar, how do you think you would feel?

aledoux

Source: http://irishmotoring.ie/cms/publish/article_34.php

The guiding principles for pedestrians include:

· Always use a footpath. If there is no footpath walk on the right hand side facing oncoming traffic
· Choose a safe place to cross
· Be seen by wearing reflective gear
· Stay sober – drunk pedestrians can cause accidents

However, it’s not just the responsibility of pedestrians to cross carefully. Motorists must recognise the danger too and look out for pedestrians at risk.

Drivers should drive slowly – as driving conditions deteriorate it will take you longer to react to danger.

· A pedestrian hit by a car traveling at 30km/h stands a 10% chance of being killed
· Hit at 50km/h five out of ten pedestrians will be killed
· 9 out of 10 pedestrians will be killed if hit at 60 km/h
· At over 60 km/h – no chance

Who drives at 30km/h in dublin I tried and sometimes dont have the choice with my van and believe me you get some aangry people behind you!.
50-60km/h is more likely in Dublin. Bull Bar are such a very little factor to me !

If you put speed limit to 30km/h in dublin then everybody will be happy! Even I will coz people wont be angry when I ll drive at 30km/h and people will have time to look at my bullbar

Any news on the 30km/h limits ?

prospect

The Chairman and CEO of the Pedestrian Council of Australia, called on all state and territory governments to immediately ban bullbars throughout the nation.

Mr Scruby said: "Bullbars are causing at least an extra 14% of pedestrian deaths on our roads each year (data from the Federal Office of Road Safety). They are nothing but a fashion fad with little if any useful purpose. There is a Spartacus Syndrome amongst many owners of these modern day chariots, most of whom are oblivious to the potential risks, not only to the lives and limbs of pedestrians, but to their own safety. Vehicle manufactures are continuing to improve the design of vehicles to make them safer for motorists and pedestrians. The fitting of a bullbar simply nullifies the effects of these improvements. With the national road toll for January 1997 up 18.3% over January 1996, Mr Scruby called for urgent action.


Mr Scruby made the following points:

* Bullbars significantly increase the likelihood of death and injury to pedestrians. The Federal Office of Road Safety estimates that in 1992, 14% of pedestrian deaths could be attributed to bullbars. This is approximately 1 death per week.

* Drivers and passengers are at greater risk of death or injury in motor vehicle crashes when struck by a vehicle fitted with a bullbar, especially in side-intrusion crashes.

* Drivers of vehicles fitted with bullbars increase the risk of death and injury to themselves and their passengers because bullbars reduce the life-saving effect of the crumple-zones which are built in to all modern vehicles.

* Bullbars are already illegal: Australian Design Rule 42.9.1 "No vehicle shall be equipped with any object or fitting, not technically essential which protrudes from any part of the vehicle so that it is likely to increase the risk of bodily injury to any person". Therefore state and territory governments have the power and duty to refuse to register any vehicle not complying with this rule.

* It is only a matter of time before the legal fraternity discovers the enormous number of potential defendants in damages claims. Owners of vehicles fitted with bullbars leave themselves wide open to financial liability and culpability if it can be shown that the death or injury of another person was a result of a bullbar being fitted to a vehicle in contravention of ADR 42.9.1.

* Recent low-speed simulated crash tests reveal that vehicles fitted with bullbars are significantly more expensive to repair.

* Vehicles fitted with bullbars have the potential to alter the air-bag triggering mechanism in vehicles fitted with air-bags.

* Apart from the grief, pain and suffering, it is estimated that every death on our roads costs approximately $700,000 and every serious injury approximately $100,000.

Mr Scruby said: "There is now a wealth of research material undertaken both in Australia and overseas, particularly the UK, that bullbars on any vehicle are a serious health hazard. The PCA calls upon all state and territory governments to urgently comply with ADR 42.9.1 and refuse to register any vehicle fitted with a bullbar."

"Additionally, we call upon all insurers to substantially increase insurance premiums (Third Party and Property) for any vehicle fitted with a bullbar as it is totally iniquitous that the rest of the motoring and pedestrian community should be subsidising this deadly fashion fad."

goodfella867

you should try to avoid knocking pedestrians down altogether, bullbar or not.

Kermitt

aledoux wrote:

Do you think a double decker Dublin bus with flat front is design to do little damage to pedestrians ?

You could apply this theory to trucks, jeeps with high bumpers, etc, but thats not the point. If a bus hits you, it wouldn't matter if it had a bouncy castle sellotaped to the front, you'd probably still be killed. If a vito hits you at 40kph, you could survive, unless theres a bullbar, which increases the height on the body that takes the impact and preventing the 'scoop and roll' phenomenon where a pedestrian is taken onto the vehicle with more chance of survival as they don't get run over by it..
Personally I always thought bullbars looked well on 4x4s, but i wouldn't have one. I also think a rocket launcher would look well on the front of my golf, but aint gonna be fitting one of those:D

Seth Brundle

aledoux wrote:

Source: http://irishmotoring.ie/cms/publish/article_34.php
<snip>

They are all 'shoulds'. Reality is totally different!

loyatemu

Who drives at 30km/h in dublin

if you are driving along at 60 and a pedestrian steps out ahead, presumably you are going to hit the brakes. You may only be going 30 by the time you hit them.

...Although you sound like the sort of person who would hit the accelerator.

Litcagral

aledoux wrote:

Do you think a double decker Dublin bus with flat front is design to do little damage to pedestrians ?

That's a totally illogical example to use. Buses are a necessity - bull bars on a Vito are not. The benefits of a bus will far outweigh any negative side effects or dangers that they may pose.


ROTR - "a driver must not put a pedestrian at risk".


Re; Mr Bull Bar - from what I see, most of his work seems to be fitting tow-bars and van roof racks/ladders, cycle racks etc..

fits

I do think bullbars are awful things, and in no way should be fitted to look good.
I would like my curiosity satisfied though. Myself and oh have come face to face with deer on 3 occasions in the last year, one involving a 180 degree spin on an icy mountain road. Are bullbars really any use at all in this instance or do they just send the deer in through the windscreen?
Still not getting one though.

joolsveer

Extract from New Zealand
http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/factsheets/22.html



Factsheet 22 — May 2003
Bullbars

If you're thinking about fitting a bullbar to your vehicle, you need to read this factsheet first. It explains the safety issues and legal requirements for bullbars on cars, four-wheel-drive vehicles (4WDs), vans, utes and pick-up trucks (class MA, MB, MC and NA vehicles).

Fitting a bullbar can affect your safety, the safety of other road users and your wallet. In many cases it's illegal to fit a bullbar, and removing it later could make fitting one a waste of time and money.
Bullbars in crashes

In a low-speed crash, a bullbar can protect your vehicle from light panel damage. In a higher-speed crash, however, a bullbar can lead to more serious injuries for people inside the vehicle.

Bullbars can be very dangerous for other road users, particularly pedestrians.

These are some of the concerns Land Transport New Zealand has about bullbars:

* If a bullbar is an 'after-market add-on' (eg, added later, and not part of the vehicle's original design), your vehicle may not crumple to absorb energy in the way it was designed to do in a crash. This means more crash energy may reach you inside the vehicle and increase your risk of injury.
* A bullbar may reduce the effectiveness of airbags.
* Bullbars can cause more serious injuries for pedestrians, cyclists and motorcyclists, as the bars tend to be stiff and concentrate crash forces in a smaller area.
* If a vehicle with a bullbar crashes into another vehicle, people in the other vehicle may not be as well protected. Because a bullbar tends to be stiff and unyielding, the other vehicle will have to absorb more crash energy and the risk of injury to its occupants will be higher.

The safety of different types of bullbar

Tubular metal bullbars without deformable padding can be very dangerous in crashes involving pedestrians. Further research may show that tubular metal bullbars are simply too dangerous — if you fit them to your vehicle, please note that you may have to remove them at some point in the future.

Some manufacturers now produce bullbars made from plastic, or from composite metal/plastic materials. Tests in Europe and Australia have shown these bullbars do protect the vehicle adequately. In many cases they're a lower risk to pedestrians than the vehicle without bullbars fitted.
Bullbars and airbags

Vehicles with airbags have a control system to ensure the airbags inflate at the right time to protect you (and make sure the airbags aren't set off by minor crashes).

If a vehicle has been designed and manufactured with both an airbag and a bullbar, then the controls of the airbag will be designed to work properly for the whole vehicle, with the bullbar fitted.

If you add a bullbar later to a vehicle with airbags, you might be placing yourself and your passengers at risk:

* There's some evidence that a bullbar may affect the airbag's timing in a high-speed crash, making the airbag inflate too soon or too late to protect you fully. In extreme cases, the driver or passenger may be injured by the inflating airbag.
* Bullbars can cause airbags to inflate during minor frontal-impact crashes that wouldn't normally have activated the airbags. The airbags can, in these situations, cause more injury than the impact. Having the airbags replaced once they've been activated can be expensive, too.

Some bullbar manufacturers in Australia have designed and tested their bullbars to make them compatible with airbag control systems in low speed collisions. Bullbars tested in this way are safer than those that haven't been tested, and are also less likely to affect the performance of other safety features (eg, crumple zones).
What's the safest option?

The safest option is to not fit a bullbar to a vehicle, especially if the vehicle has airbags. Usually there's no need for a bullbar. There are also legal restrictions that can prevent you from having a bullbar fitted.

If, however, you think a bullbar is necessary for your occupational or off-road driving, you might be able to find one that has been tested and certified by the vehicle manufacturer as compatible with the airbag system in your make and model of vehicle.

joolsveer

I saw this truck today when I was on foot with no access to a footpath.

maidhc

A bullbar is a reasonably sensible thing to have on a 4x4 that goes off road, especially if it is going to be seeing a lot of abuse (my uncle uses his one to push gates open and block cattle...)

On a *van* in Dublin City centre, there is no point, it is the same thing as putting putting one on a punto or something. Put a decent set of alloys on the van and lower the suspension; it will look well and wont needlessly endanger anyone.