Train Hell

civdef

So, having been delayed three days in a row on my commute to Dublin from Portlaoise, I'm starting to lose heart (boundless unthinking optimism kept me going through the last 2 years of it). A few questions occur to me:

1.
Is it that hard to make a quick announcement on the PA when you're sitting somewhere between Hazelhatch and Sallins for 25 minutes as to what may have led to that situation? Corollary - why do so many train carriages have faulty PA speakers - surely this is a safety requirement?

2.
Do IE actually maintain their trains? I presume the answer is a yes, but for some reason the same faults seem to happen over and over (I'm thinking particularly of the stuck doors on the Mk III carriages). Corollary - Are the older trains with the manually opened doors more reliable - I seem to get delayed more on the newer ones.

3.
Do IE hire staff for Heuston from cattle marts? - the occupant handling policies there seem to have a lot in common with marts. Is there a competition between staff to see who can cause the biggest queue / biggest rush to the gate?

MorningStar

I think it really comes down to are you willing to pay more for your ticket to get what you want. You could complain that they don't use their money right but one way or the other it will still mean more money needs to be spent. THe money has to come from somewhere

Victor

civdef wrote:

I'm thinking particularly of the stuck doors on the Mk III carriages

My experience of this has been sometimes the seal from the rubber gasket is slightly stronger that the rotation of the arm, all it needs is a slight tap and the door will open.

But of course, sheep don't know this.

Now do you know why they hire staff from cattle marts.

civdef

Nope, I'm thinking of the cases (very frequent in my experience) where the doors fail to close when the train is about to leave the station, and you end up with the train going nowhere, with IE staff running up and down shouting that the "lights are green" etc. Sounds like valve/switch problems.

This is paricularly amusing when it happens for the second or third day in a row,, on the same train - hence my maintainance wonderings.

Litcagral

civdef wrote:

Corollary - why do so many train carriages have faulty PA speakers - surely this is a safety requirement?QUOTE]


Yes it can be difficult to decode. I think some staff have a tendency to speak to close to the microphone which gives a muffled effect. There is also a tendency to press the PTS button and speak simultaneously instead of pausing for a second and a tendency to release the button before the last word or two are transmitted. But it's a hell of a lot better that the New York subway onboard announcements- virtually impossible to decipher!

MarkoP11

I'm sorry to say but a working PA system is only a safety requirement if the train is driver only operated, indeed not all rolling stock has pa equipment, the last non fitted stuff was withdrawn this week, only 9 years later then planned

The major issue with the PA appears to be staff training, the concept of speaking in a clear voice and holding the microphone the right distance away has not landed in IE yet. You need to allow 2 or 3 seconds before you start to talk. The English dialect known as train makes no sense. Automated announcements will be rolled out on the Kildare route in the next few weeks so they say not likely but we wait an see

The doors issue is well known (since 1984), the door is clamped quite tightly when locked and a well timed kick sorts the issue out. The manual doors have major safety issues (ever see it hit someone on a platform ?) and are now outlawed on new trains not to mention accessibility. Its a price to pay, doors are the number one item on the defect list all across Europe. The doors are a safety critical element if they don't lock the brakes won't release thats a safety requirement. To be fair to CIE they introduced automatic doors in 1984 on intercity 5 years ahead of the UK and many lives have been saved as a result

Same train time =/= Same coach in general the sets rotate around, that said IE staff have a habit of failing to report defects are they are required to do so, the term proactive doesn't appear in the IE dictionary. The newer trains are vastly more reliable than the old ones, heating and lighting where major issues on the older trains

The platform gate issue in Heuston is quite strange, now there are legitimate reasons for not opening the gates such as the train being cleaned or the train be shunted. The key issue have spent many long hours in Heuston is getting the member of staff to show up on time to open the gate.

The one thing that has improved in Heuston is getting trains to leave on time this has been a major bug bear of mine for some time and I'm mentioned it to the staff in charge several times and there has been a noticeable improvement in getting away on time. That came about by being able to quote the date time and circumstances and being able to show it was staff at fault

If you want to complain the boss is

Mr Steve Murphy
Manager South and West
Iarnrod Eireann
Heuston Station
Dublin 8

Mr Myles McHugh
Service Planning Manager South and West

Iarnrod Eireann
Station Road,
Galway

OR

Iarnrod Eireann
Heuston Station
Dublin 8

As you see the service planning manager for the line is based in Galway so its not worth the hassle (why Galway should be your next question). Be very very specific dates times coach numbers etc IE will try to talk there way out

The be honest if you get a answer within 6 weeks consider yourself lucky the majority of complaints are not answered. Iarnrod Eireann will contest that statement but thats the reality and there is no shortage of people to back it up

Considering its all but pointless you may want to get in touch with:
Kildare Rail Users Group http://www.platform11.org/local_groups/KRUG/
Newbridge Rail Group http://www.platform11.org/local_groups/NRG/

Alternatively a local group in Portloaise/Portarlington would be a useful thing to have as IE seem more willing to talk if there is some kind of organisation in the ground but have become rather concerned at the level of organisation, that they might be able to fall into a trap. IE management are heading down to Kildare in the next few weeks and they are going to get hammered into the ground thanks to the fact they are organised

civdef

There are definitely instances of faulty PA systems, where all you get is intermittent bursts of white noise, for instance. In the event of delays, it doesn't seem to matter as often no announcement is made either way, though this varies, some staff are very good - like the fella who apologised for the "usual farce ye have been experiencing".

I can accept the fact that mechanical doors are likely to have more faults - and I agree on the safety issues (did a safety study on UK slam-shut door fatalaties in uni at one stage). However, the thing that makes me think that poor maintainance may be an issue, is that at least in one series of such repeating errors it was the same train (I checked the number to be sure). The fact that the fault indicates a lack of maintainance - like you suggest, probably someone didn't bother reporting it. You have to wonder, if some faults aren't reported, what else is being ignored?

Yeah, the ticket checker not turning up is the biggest single reason for delayed boarding it seems - I don't see why they need to check tickets at the platform gate at all personally. Even better, on those occassions where boarding is delayed for operational or technical reasons, with the resulting queue stretching 100m or so, they still regularly insist on ticket checking at the gate - further unnecessary delay. If I was cynical I might suspect checking tickets at the gate leads to a nice relaxing trip for the ticket checker.

As for the passenger group, that has promise. If there was any rope lying around last night on the platform at Portarlington (train failure passngers offloaded to wait for following train) - it might have resulted in dire consequences for any member of IE in the vicinity - people were pretty friggin angry!

MarkoP11

civdef wrote:

As for the passenger group, that has promise. If there was any rope lying around last night on the platform at Portarlington (train failure passngers offloaded to wait for following train) - it might have resulted in dire consequences for any member of IE in the vicinity - people were pretty friggin angry!

To be fair you won't succeed in changing anything unless you get proactive, IE have had it too easy as people are willing to bitch and moan but not take action, get in touch http://www.platform11.org/local_groups

It was a real pleasure last week traveling down to Kildare to hear the two people opposite me discussing the meeting held in Newbridge the week before about the rail service, thats when you know its making a difference

The crew in Newbridge and Kildare (Lucan, Sallins also) have a strong position and mandate, now if you added Portlaoise and Portarlington in the entire route is covered and IE can't win. Things have moved up a gear the IE pr speak doesn't hold water.

One very interesting thing coming out of Kildare, Newbridge and Portloaise is there seems to be a unacceptably high level of train failures compared to the much busier lines through Dublin Connolly where breakdowns are much rarer despite there being easily 3 times as many trains running

AndrewMc

MarkoP11 wrote:

The platform gate issue in Heuston is quite strange, now there are legitimate reasons for not opening the gates such as the train being cleaned or the train be shunted. The key issue have spent many long hours in Heuston is getting the member of staff to show up on time to open the gate.

Quibble: why is the shunting of trains a reason to not check tickets and let people onto the platform (and get them out of the station hall)?

MarkoP11

If the train is being moved (and it has manual doors) there is safety risk that someone may try to board while its moving, there is a possible issue that the train if shunted could hit the buffers, now the rule book gets thrown out at times

The modifications in Heuston have moved the ticket check point to about 20m inside the train shed so the queue is not quite as bad once the roof is finished it should be better

If you take the case of the 15:30 Cork Dublin, it arrives just before 18:30, it empties, locomotive uncouples, the cleaning crew do a quick run through, passenger gate opens about 18:40-18:45 train loads departs 19:00, can't fault that

The problem is in reality people showing up early to get a seat, seat booking will sort that out

A simple agreement from IE that the gate will open 15-20 minutes before departure is what you want, but the problem remains staff showing up late

The ticket check also serves the purpose of stopping you getting on the wrong train by accident

dmeehan

AndrewMc wrote:

Quibble: why is the shunting of trains a reason to not check tickets and let people onto the platform (and get them out of the station hall)?

probably because some idiot will try and board the train while it is still moving and injure themselves, and end up suing IE for all they're worth :rolleyes:

civdef

You have platforms open to the public at nearly every station in the country, so how is Heuston more of a risk - if anything, there is less of a risk, as you don't get fast trains passing through.

Anyway, there would be nothing to stop them closing the platform gate 2min prior to departure as at present.

enterprise

MarkoP11 wrote:

If you take the case of the 15:30 Cork Dublin, it arrives just before 18:30, it empties, locomotive uncouples, the cleaning crew do a quick run through, passenger gate opens about 18:40-18:45 train loads departs 19:00, can't fault that

I have gotten the 19.00 to Cork a number of times since Dec and it hasn't been formed off the 15.30 ex Cork. Time to re-exam you carriage diagrams marko!

MarkoP11

Its at there descretion all I can say I stood there and watched it arrive (while waiting for another service) as the 15:30 ex Cork, into P5, train emptied and was announced as the 19:00, its a 35 minutes turnaround, from next year all Cork trains will be a 50 minutes turnaround

Its not the correct link but thats what happened, I am aware that a MK3 set failed that evening it may not be typical but it showed that if done correctly with proper number of staff things can be handled efficently

Exact train rosters are for IE internal use and are not available outside the company if they where they would expose some inefficent operation where extra services could be provided, such as why IE need 5 sets to run Dublin Cork every 2 hours but only 7 to run it hourly ??

enterprise

MarkoP11 wrote:

Exact train rosters are for IE internal use and are not available outside the company if they where they would expose some inefficent operation where extra services could be provided, such as why IE need 5 sets to run Dublin Cork every 2 hours but only 7 to run it hourly ??

True,

But with observation on the ground it becomes fairly easy to work out the daily carriage workings. What goes down must come back........

KC61

MarkoP11 wrote:

Exact train rosters are for IE internal use and are not available outside the company if they where they would expose some inefficent operation where extra services could be provided, such as why IE need 5 sets to run Dublin Cork every 2 hours but only 7 to run it hourly ??

With all due respect Marko it doesn't take rocket science to figure out why five sets are required and nor is it deliberately inefficient. Two of the five sets are CityGold sets and have their diagrams are cast in stone - i.e. the 0700, 1300 and 1700 ex-Dublin and 0700, 1130 and 1730 ex-Cork. The alternative is withdraw guaranteed CityGold service! The other three sets work around these services in order to provide a clockface two-hourly service.

Having 7 identical sets from later in the year will of course mean far greater flexiblity in operation.

MarkoP11

I'm fully aware of why you only get 1.5 round trips out of each city gold set a day, they could provide more city gold coaches

Thats just one example, the rostering could be tighter provide more city gold services and provide more seats

KC61

MarkoP11 wrote:

I'm fully aware of why you only get 1.5 round trips out of each city gold set a day, they could provide more city gold coaches

Thats just one example, the rostering could be tighter provide more city gold services and provide more seats

Where are these additional CityGold coaches going to magically appear from? There is only one other coach fitted out to CityGold spec. Even with three CityGold sets, if you were to tighten the rostering of those CityGold sets at least one of the peak evening services (1700 ex-Heuston or 1730 ex-Cork) would lose the CityGold service as a set would not be available. Although you could offer additional services you would lose other existing trains due to trains being in the wrong locations or in transit.

I would like to think that you are not suggesting converting other standard coaches to CityGold spec thereby incurring large expenditure that would otherwise be better spent given that the coaches are to be displaced in the coming months by the new Mark 4 stock?

In order to offer a two-hourly service, with CityGold on particular trains at peak travel times then I'm afraid that the current rostering is the only way that is going to happen. I really do think it far better to deliver a recognisable product such as the two-hourly service with a premium business product when people want to use it.

Chris_533976

I still cant understand why the train from Cork - Cobh is frequently up to 30 minutes late. Its a 20 minute journey and there are only two trains using the bloody track.

Victor

trainuser wrote:

Where are these additional CityGold coaches going to magically appear from?

The executive train. :v:

MarkoP11

IE rebuilt only 3 coaches to city gold standard, they where 3 first class coaches. The plan was to provide more and to roll the service out to Limerick and Galway that didn't happen. There are 3 other full first class coaches, one normal, one which is part of the executive train (IE used taxpayers money to build 2 coaches the public can't use, 144 seats less) and one in the Galway set. The Galway set also has a first class coach but its used as a standard class coach.

The executive train ties up a lot of resources, 2 coaches are dedicated plus a resturant coach and at least one other MK3 coach, thats basically one extra train which spends most of its time idle. Well I can't afford to pay to 3 figure sum on those extremely rare occasion where tickets are publicly available

End of the day if IE had been serious about city-gold it would have been on all Cork services 10 years ago, what is putting business people off is the fact if they finished earlier or later you have to travel in a second class coach with curtains with a 1 in the window

If Iarnrod Eireann where bothered you could get 4 city gold departures each way

7:00/10:30/14:30/18:30 ex Cork
7:00/11:00/14:00/18:00 ex Dublin

Our man in Havana

Do IE still have superstandard? What excatly is the difference in Standard and Superstandard?

MarkoP11

heard it said elsewhere, curtains

Superstandard was the slightly better MK2 service, haven't seen it mentioned anywhere

There are some first class seats which are the same as the standard class in with and spacing but you pay for them being green and have the curtains

The hint is to head for the coach beyond the resturant car, its normally half first half second but the second class is the exact same as first bar the at seat service and curtains

You can upgrade enroute to first if you really want it

The new Cork Dublin train has curtains throughout.........

KC61

MarkoP11 wrote:

IE rebuilt only 3 coaches to city gold standard, they where 3 first class coaches. The plan was to provide more and to roll the service out to Limerick and Galway that didn't happen. There are 3 other full first class coaches, one normal, one which is part of the executive train (IE used taxpayers money to build 2 coaches the public can't use, 144 seats less) and one in the Galway set. The Galway set also has a first class coach but its used as a standard class coach.

The executive train ties up a lot of resources, 2 coaches are dedicated plus a resturant coach and at least one other MK3 coach, thats basically one extra train which spends most of its time idle. Well I can't afford to pay to 3 figure sum on those extremely rare occasion where tickets are publicly available

End of the day if IE had been serious about city-gold it would have been on all Cork services 10 years ago, what is putting business people off is the fact if they finished earlier or later you have to travel in a second class coach with curtains with a 1 in the window

If Iarnrod Eireann where bothered you could get 4 city gold departures each way

7:00/10:30/14:30/18:30 ex Cork
7:00/11:00/14:00/18:00 ex Dublin

I agree with your analysis Marko with regard to the possibility of four return services for the CityGold sets, but that does raise a number of other issues, namely:

1) What level of service would there be on the 1700 ex-Dublin and 1730 ex-Cork, which are the optimum times for the premium level of service, and not an hour later. In my experience, as a general rule in business it's better not to discomode existing your customers by making a change, but rather wait until there are sufficient resources available to operate the full augmented service to customers, i.e. in this case the hourly service to start later in 2006.

2) How would the sets be rotated for maintenance? This is what happens each night at present. With the new schedule sets will be rotated every few days allowing for maintenance, but this would not be possible with the two return journeys that you propose and the tight turnarounds.

3) Changing the schedules as you suggest would have a knock-on effect on other routes. Again it would perhaps be best to wait until the introduction of the hourly service before introducing the revised clockface pattern on all the other routes as well - something similar to the SouthWest Trains change last year?

I accept the point that it is theoretically possible to offer additional trips with the five sets, from a practical and pragmatic point of view would it be wise?

Finally, most of the coaches from the Executive train are currently in general use as IE currently have a requirement for 12 full Mark 3 sets on a daily basis, until the Mark 4 coaching stock enters use.

MarkoP11

Business people gave out when the citygold became the 17:00 service, business day ends at 5pm thus a 6pm departure may be what people want, that said standard class account for 10 times are many people on a train

Given the frequent overcrowding continued use of 1960's era coaches and so on you need to get value for money out of the system

Cork can maintain the coaches, indeed to will look after the new CDE coaches. There is of course the weekend where sets could be swapped around, to see 2 citygold coaches on a Sunday train ex Cork is not unusual

The executive set sits all day and does nothing, 7161, 7162 and 7401 are always there idle, they are joined by the spare citygold and others as needed. Its a nice to have but I'd love to see the business case, how did the DoT pay for it? I've seen IE turn out a 6 coach executive train on a weekday several times. The 2006 timetable didn't introduce a requirement for an extra set as it was pinched from Tralee. Put simply what would be 144 seats is sitting idle, at 4 journeys a day 5 days a week thats a lot more space and a lot more seats

A clockface timetable will be 2007 at the earliest, again it could have been done years ago. It was possible for IE to operate a 2 hourly service to Cork in 2004 but they didn't

It wasn't until 2005 that MK2d sets where taken off the Cork run, this being the busiest line on the network had to wait 22 years. Given IE's abilty to run a railway the way they do the concept of a quick turnaround would never work

KC61

With all due respect Marko, you seem to be delving significantly back through the sands of time to pick holes here. We are dealing with the current situation, not that of when CityGold was introduced. The fact remains is that the service IS improving - we now have the concept of clockface departures being implemented and it is far better to have a regular two-hourly service than a mix of times. We should be glad that there is a changing attitude in IE that is seeing sensible decisions such as replacing the Mark 2 set on the Cork route with a Mark 3 set being implemented. This will enable the additional Waterford service to commence next month. Dick Fearn and his new team are in situ for less than two years, and I think it is fair to give credit to them. He and his team are changing attitudes in the organisation, which certainly needed to happen as IE failed to recognise that the customer is number 1. The proof is there to be seen - extra services on virtually all routes together with a gradual move to clockface patterns. Whether any of this could or should have happened years ago is really irrelevant now - the fact is it IS happening.

Also, as a businessman who does regularly travel throughout the country for my job, if you think that most of us who get up at 5.30 to get the 7am service want to wait until 18.30 to return then you are seriously mistaken. I say again that the optimum time is around 5pm, as most business meetings will be concluded by 4pm at the latest. I can say this with over 10 years travelling experience in several organisations. I certainly would not want to be getting home after 9pm, having been up that early. And yes I know that the main trains to Tralee and Waterford are later, but I would expect that to change.

As for maintenance, all Mark 3 sets have to visit the Valeting Plant every few days (and certainly not once a week as you suggest) for a maintenance check - there are no similar facilities in Cork.

Contrary to what Marko posted above, there IS an additional Mark 3 set in operation in this timetable. The set that operated to/from Tralee is, as you point out, in operation on the Cork route, but another Mark 3 set replaced the Mark 2 set that operated on the route. If he had bothered to check the facts carefully he would know that the twelfth Mark 3 set has been formed using maintenance spares along with most of the executive train. Only coach number 7161 of the executive train has not been in public service since the new timetable was introduced due to its particular layout (it's fitted with a horseshoe bar).

I would also suggest that a clockface timetable, i.e. trains departing at set minutes past the hour, for all destinations out of Heuston will be a necessity when the hourly Cork service commences and that will be (hopefully) in December 2006, and not 2007 as you suggest.

Turning to the benefits of 1st Class, without full catering? To be honest, a guaranteed seat along with some peace and quiet can be heaven after a long day at work. In the morning, for that matter, it can offer somewhere to do some preparatory work before hitting a meeting!

In summary, yes there are a large number of faults that need to be rectified, but I think that there are subtle changes in attitude taking place, and I'd like to think that this will become more apparent as time passes. We are always very quick to spot things that go wrong, and not necessarily that quick to recognise that things do, for the most part, actually work in the way that they are supposed to!

Finally, I reiterate that I am making these comments as a regular rail user who is not an employee of IE nor associated with it in any way, but who has always had an interest in the railways.

Metrobest

trainuser wrote:

With all due respect Marko, you seem to be delving significantly back through the sands of time to pick holes here. We are dealing with the current situation, not that of when CityGold was introduced. The fact remains is that the service IS improving - we now have the concept of clockface departures being implemented and it is far better to have a regular two-hourly service than a mix of times. We should be glad that there is a changing attitude in IE that is seeing sensible decisions such as replacing the Mark 2 set on the Cork route with a Mark 3 set being implemented. This will enable the additional Waterford service to commence next month. Dick Fearn and his new team are in situ for less than two years, and I think it is fair to give credit to them. He and his team are changing attitudes in the organisation, which certainly needed to happen as IE failed to recognise that the customer is number 1. The proof is there to be seen - extra services on virtually all routes together with a gradual move to clockface patterns. Whether any of this could or should have happened years ago is really irrelevant now - the fact is it IS happening.

Also, as a businessman who does regularly travel throughout the country for my job, if you think that most of us who get up at 5.30 to get the 7am service want to wait until 18.30 to return then you are seriously mistaken. I say again that the optimum time is around 5pm, as most business meetings will be concluded by 4pm at the latest. I can say this with over 10 years travelling experience in several organisations. I certainly would not want to be getting home after 9pm, having been up that early. And yes I know that the main trains to Tralee and Waterford are later, but I would expect that to change.

As for maintenance, all Mark 3 sets have to visit the Valeting Plant every few days (and certainly not once a week as you suggest) for a maintenance check - there are no similar facilities in Cork.

Contrary to what Marko posted above, there IS an additional Mark 3 set in operation in this timetable. The set that operated to/from Tralee is, as you point out, in operation on the Cork route, but another Mark 3 set replaced the Mark 2 set that operated on the route. If he had bothered to check the facts carefully he would know that the twelfth Mark 3 set has been formed using maintenance spares along with most of the executive train. Only coach number 7161 of the executive train has not been in public service since the new timetable was introduced due to its particular layout (it's fitted with a horseshoe bar).

I would also suggest that a clockface timetable, i.e. trains departing at set minutes past the hour, for all destinations out of Heuston will be a necessity when the hourly Cork service commences and that will be (hopefully) in December 2006, and not 2007 as you suggest.

Turning to the benefits of 1st Class, without full catering? To be honest, a guaranteed seat along with some peace and quiet can be heaven after a long day at work. In the morning, for that matter, it can offer somewhere to do some preparatory work before hitting a meeting!

In summary, yes there are a large number of faults that need to be rectified, but I think that there are subtle changes in attitude taking place, and I'd like to think that this will become more apparent as time passes. We are always very quick to spot things that go wrong, and not necessarily that quick to recognise that things do, for the most part, actually work in the way that they are supposed to!

Finally, I reiterate that I am making these comments as a regular rail user who is not an employee of IE nor associated with it in any way, but who has always had an interest in the railways.

What are benchmarking improvement against?
Have you used other rail operators in Europe (apart from the UK) and how would you compare them to Irish Rail?

Last time I was on the Cork line I had to stand all the way to Portlaoise. It was 3pm on a weekday. Nobody should ever have to stand for so long on an intercity train, at least not when paying fares that would make a TGV blush!

KC61

Metrobest wrote:

What are benchmarking improvement against?
Have you used other rail operators in Europe (apart from the UK) and how would you compare them to Irish Rail?

Last time I was on the Cork line I had to stand all the way to Portlaoise. It was 3pm on a weekday. Nobody should ever have to stand for so long on an intercity train, at least not when paying fares that would make a TGV blush!

I agree - having to stand on an InterCity service like this is not acceptable. The 3pm service suffers from serious crowding. However, where I can see the light at the end of the tunnel (if you'll pardon the pun) is that by the end of the year there will be an hourly train to Cork and a bi-hourly train to Limerick, which will alleviate this problem. This will be a definite improvement.

Other improvements that have already taken place in the past two years are additional trains/improved timetables on the Kerry, Galway and Waterford lines and improvements in the timetable on the lines to Gorey, Limerick Junction/Waterford and the Nenagh branch. The introduction of clockface departures will be another improvement, along with the new rolling stock, the refurbishment of Heuston Station and the renewal of the roof there, together with the relaying of all radial routes with CWR along with the current relaying on the branch lines.

I am just making the point that there have been some improvements in the past two years. If you took some of the posts here at face value you would think that there is nothing good happening. Granted there are many things that need to be tackled, but things are beginning to change.

Metrobest

That's all fine, wonderful in fact, but there's the core problems with Irish Rail that are not about levels of investment.

I'm talking about things controlled by human input:
Punctuality.
Customer Service, including basic staff manners.
Better/cheaper/flexible ticket options.

If Irish Rail worked on those things, as well as the other improvements you mention, it might become a rail operator on a par with, say, RENFE or NS. Won't hold my breath though!

Transport21 Fan

The problem with CIE railway product is mainly to do with institutionalisation and poor customer service. The more money you throw at them, the more this money will be used to entrench them further into their bad habits. Sure, things have improved in recent years, but I steadfastly refuse to praise them as this is what they are paid to do.

They have achieved nothing of great significance beyond spending the money and even at times their allocations of capital investment around the country has been weird and makes no sense. I can give many expamles from Mullingar Station being turned into a major rail centre for shag all extra trains as one example - the list is endless.

The sheer lack of creative thinking in terms of railway operations and services which CIE provide to the Irish public never cease to depress me. Every strata of the CIE railways operations adds up to a bedrock of paralysis which public subsidies and capital investment have only made more compacted and unshakable.

The benchmark which IE uses, is bogus and is compared to nothing except the CIE board of director's own narcasism. Across every tangible criteria CIE railway operations (currently trading under the brand of Irish Rail) range for poor to appalling.

Any train in this country which runs on a gauge of 5'3" is always going to be substandard service (what more proof do we need!) - it is time for rail transport in Ireland to move beyond the cultural and technical stagnation which the Victorian-schooled torque gauge monkies of Inchicore works and the old boys network of the CIE boardroom can provide us with. It is already happening I believe.

Transport 21 when you look at it in terms of rail investment in Dublin was a massive vote of no confidence in CIE by the Government. The only got the Interconnetor and DART extension because there was no choice. The real winner in T21 was the RPA and proper order too.

Having just returned from Holland to check out the SnellTRAM in Amsterdam (I have seen the future of urban rail transport in Ireland and it is a beautiful thing) - I also took a trip some trips on NS - comparing the NS network to IE is not really on to be fair, because of population desities between us and them etc, but in terms of just basic operations from buying a ticket, to finding a platform, train punctuality, PIS boards actually switched on, to seeing the waiting buses and trams outside stations and everything sign posted and seemless - man you just want to come home and cry when you see the garbage service CIE provide across all their companies.

The only public transport system in Ireland which could stand as an equal in Holland would be the Luas. It is as good as it's peers in Holland. I can't wait for the metro. I really can't. It is going to kick ass and be the final nail in the CIE/IE coffin, the Luas being the first.

Red Alert

i don't see why you want a company we all own by the virtue of being taxpayers to be sent under. yesterday's fracas on the LUAS could have been averted if connex moved faster, they didn't. they don't run nitelink trams except at christmas. they and their staff treat their customers with worse contempt than CIE.

Transport21 Fan

RedAlert, we also "own" (as you say) the RPA as well.

However, I am very much in favour of public ownership of the actual public transport infrastructure itself, it is the services which cannot be maintained by the state.

As for the CIE product...Go and ask everybody who uses the Luas would they prefer that CONNEX are removed from runing the Luas and instead it was handed over to the CIE company to operate instead? Just tell them that the same people who run Irish Rail and Dublin Bus will do a better job than CONNEX. Then, after they finish laughing at your suggestion, then follow it up by how CIE emlpoyees walking off the job in the middle of the day to support the Irish Ferries Circus is proof that Irish people own CIE and it is run with our interest in mind.

The reality is that most Luas customers are public transport refugees who have escaped decades of avoiding CIE incompetence at all costs. If there was no Luas, they would be driving into the city centre. Dublin Bus would be the last option after walking to work.

Metrobest

I'm glad you liked the line 51, Thomas! You're right, luas is superior to any of Amsterdam's 20 or so tram lines, as most of its running is done off street and without the conductors slowing things up.

I think that Irish people, used to little but CIE, are way too tolerant of its shoddy service. It's why they think luas is brilliant, even though a metro would be twice as good. Perhaps we get the train service we deserve? Amazingly, only 41% of NS passengers are very satisfied with the company's punctuality even though 93% of trains arrive within 5 minutes. In Holland, when a train is more than 1 minute late, people start to pace up and down the platform and glare at their watches in disgust, especially when there's no "vertraging" posted on the PIS boards. In Ireland, if the train arrives just 1 minute late it's April Fools Day!

However, we've shown with luas that we can "do" public transport on a world-class scale. What's going to be really interesting is how the Dublin metro will compare with other new metro systems like in Amsterdam and Bilbao.

RedAlert, by virtue of being taxpayers we all subsidise, more so than "own" Irish Rail. It's not a case of sending CIE under. It's about introducing the changes neccessary to give Ireland a world class train service. These changes include, but are not limited to, -
* a supervisory board comprised of train users, important people in national life and representatives of the engineering community. It would be given the power to sack Irish Rail management if they do not meet targets laid down by DoT
* allowing private companies operate trains on intercity routes (this is coming down the line in the next few years thanks to an EU directive; Irish Rail won't have a choice in the matter)
* a particular focus on punctuality
* simpler ticket structures, where singles cost 50% of a return

markpb

Red Alert wrote:

i don't see why you want a company we all own by the virtue of being taxpayers to be sent under.

If you want to look at it that way, why should we continue to invest in a company that has neither its shareholders nor its passengers at heart. RPA and Connex might not be the best network+train operators around, but (so far) they're a world better than CIE/IR.

Also, in theory, if Connex stop providing an acceptable service, RPA have the power to tender their contract to someone else. Unfortunately there's no such option with IR, no matter how poor a service they (sometimes) provide.

Transport21 Fan

Metrobest, Line 51 simply blew my mind and opened up a whole new world of rail transport possibility in Ireland, not just in Dublin, but in other cities.

I had high hopes after reading about it before I went over, but it surpassed all my expectations. It is a practical and clever way to tie in different rail modes and had "build me in Dublin, (and later Cork, Limerick)" witten all over it. From the cross-platform change with the NS mainline at Amstel, to sharing of the tram lines in the suburbs and the secondary two level platforms - it is was just practical, genius really. Even the central meridian road running with level crossings on busy cross roads in no way affected the performance. There were Merrion Gates type crossing everywhere and the SnellTRAM just flew through them. If was the road traffic which was inconvienced/compromised and not the other way around.

The flexibility of the SnellTRAM really struck me more than anything else (it's really not much faster than the Green Line, if at all). Some leaks from the RPA have indicated that this is might just be the specs for the Dublin metro and if not, this can still happen in the future thanks to standard gauge of both systems. This would allow a metro service into Tallaght from the Airport without having to upgrade Belgard-Tallaght line from Luas - both systems share the tracks. What more would you want really.

The world beyond CIE is unfolding before us and I am savouring every second of it.

BTW: The coffee on NS is actually drinkable and I did not have to rest my coffee on the floor of a 2900 "inter-city" train because there were no tables..."getting there" yeah right. No more dicking around with trying to reform CIE, time to get busy and serious about rail transport in Ireland.

Metrobest

I think the Dublin metro North will be more like the new North/South line in Amsterdam: fully segregated, underground in the city centre and elevated in the suburbs and will terminate at Zuid WTC where the line 51 and tram 5 split. (The construction work going on outside Centraal Station and at Rokin in Amsterdam centre gives an idea of what "we" will have to put up with in Dublin - a slight inconvenience, but city life is not disrupted as heavily as might be expected by ill-informed hacks).

If Metro West is built, it will look something like Amsterdam's metro Line 50 from Biljmer to Isolaterweg - it runs on elevated track along its entire length and orbits the city, taking in residential areas and employment hubs.

The green line from Charlemont to Sandyford could be upgraded to the specs of line 51 be lengthening platforms and putting in the split levels. From Charlemont to metro the track would be shared tram/metro, just like the section from Amsterdam WTC - Oranjebaan. The metro would terminate at Sandyford but the tram could run on to Cherrywood and Bray where demand does not warrant metro. Another possibility would be a tunnel portal somewhere before Beechwood where the "Green" metro could go underground and serve Rathgar, Rathmines, Harolds Cross and link up with metro North. Pie-in-the-sky though this may seem, I believe that when the metro is operational and people can see how fantastic it is, there will be an unstoppable demand for metros everywhere in the city.

maxheadroom

Metrobest wrote:

The green line from Charlemont to Sandyford could be upgraded to the specs of line 51 be lengthening platforms and putting in the split levels. From Charlemont to metro the track would be shared tram/metro, just like the section from Amsterdam WTC - Oranjebaan. The metro would terminate at Sandyford but the tram could run on to Cherrywood and Bray where demand does not warrant metro. Another possibility would be a tunnel portal somewhere before Beechwood where the "Green" metro could go underground and serve Rathgar, Rathmines, Harolds Cross and link up with metro North. Pie-in-the-sky though this may seem, I believe that when the metro is operational and people can see how fantastic it is, there will be an unstoppable demand for metros everywhere in the city.

Just a quick question about the SnellTram concept - would sharing track from stephen's green to sandyford between faster/longer metro cars and slower trams not have a negative impact on frequency in much the same way that sharing track between DART services and intercity services does?

shoegirl

MorningStar wrote:

I think it really comes down to are you willing to pay more for your ticket to get what you want. You could complain that they don't use their money right but one way or the other it will still mean more money needs to be spent. THe money has to come from somewhere

More? Irish rail fares are already more expensive pro-rata.

EG.
Dublin - Cork - monthly return €65
distance 258km - cost per km 25c
Wolfenbüttel to Hannover €15
79km - cost per km 19c


And the German train will probably be on time, won't be filthy and full of scangers, and is the price for a high speed train - the slow local train is about 65% of the price. We are paying more in Ireland for less of a service.

Besides why do they hire people who cannot talk to make announcements? I use the pretty awful Cobh-Cork service and most of the time I cannot make head nor tail of what the annoucer actually says. (And I can understand a Midleton accent!)

MarkoP11

Its 165.4 miles Dublin Cork, thats 266.13 km, 532.26 km round trip 65 euro for a monthly return thats 12.2 cent per km not 25 cent

Of course if you bought Cobh to Dublin City centre, (which exists) the cost per km would drop again and mean only one ticket to make what currently requires 4 and it covers the Luas or Bus to the city centre in Dublin. Most people never even bother to even think about that

There are a few comparisions around an IE fall into the mid field, not the cheapest but by far not the most expensive, the UK are 2 to 3 times more expensive.

You can squeeze certain things out of Irish Rail but mention the word fares and they will refuse to talk. The root of the fares problem is the DoT, if you want lower fares the shortfall in revenue has to come from somewhere. That said on off peak services from next year on Dublin Cork if you book in advance you should see a lower fare

If you apply a little research there are various ways to get a reduced fare http://www.platform11.org/passenger_info/ticketing.php#credit_union

I know certain lines in Dublin would kill for the Cork Cobh service, it even runs on Sundays

Metrobest

maxheadroom wrote:

Just a quick question about the SnellTram concept - would sharing track from stephen's green to sandyford between faster/longer metro cars and slower trams not have a negative impact on frequency in much the same way that sharing track between DART services and intercity services does?

It doesn't seem to in Amsterdam because it's a relatively short section of track, and the metro and tram each stop at every station. The frequency is roughly one tram/metro every 3-4 minutes. The tram and metro travel at the same speed along the shared section.

For example, Oranjebaan on tram line 5/sneltram line 51 has 17 services in rush hour to Centraal station (you can see every other service is a metro/sneltram);
8.03 regular tram
8.06 SNELTRAM ( = express tram/metro)
8.09 regular tram
8.14 SNELTRAM
8.15 regular tram
8.21 SNELTRAM
8.21 regular tram
8.27 regular tram
8.29 SNELTRAM
8.33 regular tram
8.36 SNELTRAM
8.39 regular tram
8.44 SNELTRAM
8.45 regular tram
8.51 regular tram
8.52 SNELTRAM
8.57 regular tram

Six minutes is longest you could have to wait for a train. If there were intercity trains on that line, huge holes would appear in the timetable to accomodate the intercities, and we'd end up with the DART-style scenario. Nobody wants that.

On another issue - the at-grade crossings being rumoured for Metro North, I am not happy to hear that. But let's wait and see: I think it will only be at-grade where there are no road intersections, if at all. Some politicians in Ballymun have been making noises about the elevation of the metro through claiming it would "damage" the aesthetics of the area. Scenic Ballymun? I do hope the RPA doesn't appease these whims; if there's one thing the RPA is guilty of, it's of paying too much attention to the opinions of crackpot refusinks.

Transport21 Fan

Excellent posts there Metrobest. The timetable you posted as well puts a bit of meat on the services we can expect. I agree that once the Metro is up and running and people see how these things actually work in a real life they will embrace it as much as they have the Luas.

I can recall people claiming the Luas would fail because it had on-street running and would kill predestrians and taxi drivers - never happened. They said Irish people would not use it as it only replicates the bus - they were wrong by a MILE.

Not that anything one says anymore will change anything. The deals are signed and i's are dotted. I think after the embrassement the Government suffered by spilting the two Luas lines for the last bunch of refusniks, that now they are just going to give the RPA a green light to get the job done the way they want to and ignore any more refusniks.

And you're right about Ballymun and the running on piers. I had to laugh at that Rosin Shorthall objecting to it. What can you say really. Welcome to the land of the Oirish Little People.

shoegirl

MarkoP11 wrote:

Its 165.4 miles Dublin Cork, thats 266.13 km, 532.26 km round trip 65 euro for a monthly return thats 12.2 cent per km not 25 cent

Of course if you bought Cobh to Dublin City centre, (which exists) the cost per km would drop again and mean only one ticket to make what currently requires 4 and it covers the Luas or Bus to the city centre in Dublin. Most people never even bother to even think about that

...

You can squeeze certain things out of Irish Rail but mention the word fares and they will refuse to talk. The root of the fares problem is the DoT, if you want lower fares the shortfall in revenue has to come from somewhere. That said on off peak services from next year on Dublin Cork if you book in advance you should see a lower fare[/url]

I know certain lines in Dublin would kill for the Cork Cobh service, it even runs on Sundays

Agree the DB price was for a single fare, however I say it was the ICE fare rather than the normal local train (which is about 65%) of the price and so cheaper than the Cork fare, wheareas Dublin to Cork you pay the same regardless of whether you stop only at 2 stations or every single one along the way.

Secondly you mention the Luas ticket to the city centre - is this new? It wasn't last time I got the train. At least the situation has changed - back a couple of years ago the last bus to town left Heuston a full 10 minutes before the last train was even due.

The ticket machines are a great improvement and have done a lot to avoid the terrible queues which often result in you missing your train. I almost always laugh when I see the sign outside the station telling people that the gates close 1 minute before the train leaves. A few times before the ticket machines went in I ended up missing a train because of enormous queues despite arriving 10 minutes early. Extremely poor customer service. Habing said that there are a few brilliant staff members who I cannot fault.

I'm not sure about Dublin envying the Cobh service. Cancellations with no replacement bus seem to have become normal. Happened to one of my colleagues in the last week and has happened to me personally three times in 3 months despite the fact that I really only use the train about 3 times a week on average. However its extremely cheap and there is plenty of parking at the stations, partially because the service really in most cases only about 50% full. In my mind and in my experience it is simply too unreliable to use as a sole means of transport.

As for the metro I am glad to see new lines being built. I have extensively used the train in the UK, France, Belgium and Germany and I think Dublin seems to be the only place where in the capital city (slow) local trains share the same line as the (faster) intercity services. It slows down the higher speed services and interrupts the local service. There is mothing nicer that taking the metropolitan line north of London and watching the Bakerloo trains as you speed by on the faster track!

MarkoP11

shoegirl wrote:

Secondly you mention the Luas ticket to the city centre - is this new?

Its been available since the first day the red line opened, before that it was just valid on the bus

Simply ask for a ticket to Dublin city centre, it will be valid on Luas 90.91 and 92 bus

You can even get Cork to Larne in Northern Ireland on one ticket

I'm not sure about Dublin envying the Cobh service. Cancellations with no replacement bus seem to have become normal. Happened to one of my colleagues in the last week and has happened to me personally three times in 3 months despite the fact that I really only use the train about 3 times a week on average. However its extremely cheap and there is plenty of parking at the stations, partially because the service really in most cases only about 50% full. In my mind and in my experience it is simply too unreliable to use as a sole means of transport.

Kildare Dublin has no Sunday service despite having a heavier usage than Cork Cobh

Iób

MarkoP11 wrote:

Its been available since the first day the red line opened, before that it was just valid on the bus

Simply ask for a ticket to Dublin city centre, it will be valid on Luas 90.91 and 92 bus

You can even get Cork to Larne in Northern Ireland on one ticket

Kildare Dublin has no Sunday service despite having a heavier usage than Cork Cobh

But the machines don't sell the integrated IE tickets. Any reason for this?

MarkoP11

Known issue that has been brought to the attention of management twice

An answer is expected soon

There is no reason why it can't be done

Metrobest

Compared to the sleek and sexy luas ticket machines, Irish Rail's machines look amateurish. The front page is a mess; finding the ticket you want is like wading through a crocodile-infested river.. Do Irish Rail not get out much? A cursory glance at a luas, NS or DB TVM would show them how it's done!

markf909

Compared to the sleek and sexy luas ticket machines, Irish Rail's machines look amateurish.

They are the same machines :rolleyes:

SeanW

shoegirl wrote:

More? Irish rail fares are already more expensive pro-rata.

EG.
Dublin - Cork - monthly return €65
distance 258km - cost per km 25c
Wolfenbüttel to Hannover €15
79km - cost per km 19c


And the German train will probably be on time, won't be filthy and full of scangers, and is the price for a high speed train - the slow local train is about 65% of the price. We are paying more in Ireland for less of a service.

Besides why do they hire people who cannot talk to make announcements? I use the pretty awful Cobh-Cork service and most of the time I cannot make head nor tail of what the annoucer actually says. (And I can understand a Midleton accent!)

You're so right Shoegirl. The German system is lovely in every respect.

For example, try getting one way tickets on, say a Sunday morning from a terminal location.

In Germany, you can get one-way fares on some really nice trains for under €100-€130 for *really* long journies such as Munich-Berlin and Berlin-Amsterdam.

Show up at Connolly station on a weekend morning to get a one-way ticket to ... oh, say ... Edgeworthstown, it will cost you €30 and because who the fúck wants to one way from Dublin at that time, yo'll be alone on the train with no more than 5 others. And with the wonderful trains being used ... well, that's another story.

T21fan might not want to admit this but CIE/IE does have some strengths such as engineering, like being able to run a nationwide railway network with no funding.

Ticketing however, is not one of their strengths, whoever designed CIE/IEs ticketing policies had their brains up their read ends.

The RPA for all their faults at least managed to figure out that a Single ticket should only cost HALF that of a Return.

Irish Rail needs to throw out their whole damn ticketing policies and adopt those of the MTA Metro North and Long Island Railroads in New York. Or similar model of best practice.

MN/LIRR got it right on ticketing where IE floundered.

1. One way fares are exactly half that of a Rountrip. Seems simple to most except IE.
2. Each train is explicitly labelled Peak or Off-Peak, and this is determined very simply by the time the train gets to or leaves Grand Central (for example on a weekday anything getting into the city before 11AM or leaving NYC between 5PM and 9PM is subject to Peak fare, everything is a discounted off-peak fare.
3. The Fare structure is transparent and simple, and is detailed on train schedules. You can tell EXACTLY how much a journey is going to cost before you leave home.