Anybody buying in Crosbies Yard? Solicitor has warned about Titles

FreeAnd.. · 16-02-2006 3:30pm #1

Hi,

Has anybody signed/about to sign contracts for apartments in Crosbies Yard? I am currently in the process of buying a 2 bed apartment and have been waiting since November to sign the contracts. They were finally sent out last week and our solicitor raised a number of pre contract questions that the vendors solicitors had to answer before our solicitor would reccommend that we sign the contracts. Now the problem - the main questions were in relation to Titles and the vendors solicitor came back and said that the titles for one section go back as far as 1989 and the other only to 2004 and that anything before that were lost. We were advised that titles should at least go back 20 years and that 40 years was best practice. Our solicitor was seeking an indemnity bond but got nothing and was basically advised that per our contract it was basically take it or leave it. Has anyone else had issues like this with contracts? I have been warned that having titles only going back a few years might hamper a sale down the line. Is this true or is my solicitor simply looking for more money out of me? (Advised that counsel should be sought for advise before proceeding, this will cost an extra few hundred euros).

Any advice would be much appreciated. I don't plan on signing any contracts until I am 100% on the sale.

MorningStar · 16-02-2006 4:36pm

Is that Crosby's yard North Strand
I found it really strange that they decided to build there at all. A friend of mine worked in offices there but after the last flooding they had to move. They couldn't get insurance due to the repeated flooding.
I'd check it out for sure before you sign. I own property in the area and ownship rights are very hard to figure out. A slip of paper that can't be photocopiesd it is so old. I went to buy a house there and it turned out the toilet was in the neighbours garden.

FreeAnd.. · 16-02-2006 4:57pm

Yeah thats the place, something seems to be up alright because our deposit has been sitting with our solicitor since november with no sign of contracts. If this is the case alot of people will be affected and I'm not looking forward to searching for a new property.

As for flooding, was that are particurlarly bad? I have been living close enough for the past few years but didn't regularly go down the ossory or west road. There definitely seems to be some negative signs this close to signing the contracts....

16-02-2006 5:29pm

Your solicitor is spot on. The standard rule is that a good root (fundamental starting point) of title must be at least 20 years old. Anything less than that and you may have a difficulty selling the place afterwards.

Unfortunately, the Vendor's hand is so strong at the moment, that they can say 'take it or leave it'. There are plenty of Solicitors who will overlook that detail and just be happy to get the business, cut a corner, and be fairly comfortable that the chances of something being wrong with the title is slim anyway. But your Solicitor is 100% correct - in fact if only more were like him, particularly the Vendor's Solicitor...

FreeAnd.. · 16-02-2006 5:48pm

Thanks for that Conor74, at least I know my solicitor is working well on my behalf. They said that alot of solicitors over look this and simply take everything as being fine - I wasn't sure if I was being led down the path in order to hand over more money. Saying that, I had no reason to believe I was being led astray because I have found the solicitors to be extremely effecient, professional and approachable since I signed up with them. I think it was just my suspicious nature. At least I'm finding all of this out know before I signed anything - the only thing now is to find the best way forward...

16-02-2006 6:59pm

FreeAnd.. wrote:

They said that alot of solicitors over look this and simply take everything as being fine

They are right, which is a pity. A few years ago, more Solicitors would have stood up to such practices and handed back the contracts unsigned and told the Vendor's Solicitor that it's not acceptable to put a colleague in that position. Remember, in many cases not only is the purchasing Solicitor expected to check title for a client, but also to certify that title is in order for mortgage purposes.

Unfortunately, competition being what it is, nowadays many will be so desperate for business they will paper over the cracks. If only more stood up and said such practices were intolerable and we should return to the days when Solicitors didn't expect colleagues to take the exposure on their insurance.

Title is not an exact science, so the 1989 root may be 'getting warmer'. Expecting a Solicitor to accept a root of title from 2004 though is just not on.

MorningStar · 17-02-2006 12:52pm

FreeAnd.. wrote:

Yeah thats the place, something seems to be up alright because our deposit has been sitting with our solicitor since november with no sign of contracts. If this is the case alot of people will be affected and I'm not looking forward to searching for a new property.

As for flooding, was that are particurlarly bad? I have been living close enough for the past few years but didn't regularly go down the ossory or west road. There definitely seems to be some negative signs this close to signing the contracts....

I wouldn't be too bothered about the solicitor thing. It is easy to misunderstand what is going on there and so many people give a "simple" version of events and never admit faults on their side.

The flooding was very very bad. The first level was flooded as far as I rememeber. THe way the ground level rises and drops around there is the problem and I don't know of any works done to fix that. If you aren't on the ground level you should be alright but your car might not do so well.

I was told that due to the insurance the offices were all closed by Crosby himself as it wasn't worth it due to flooding and no business would move in without insurance. It may be a bit of hearsay but if I was buying I would investigate it before sigining. I don't want to talk bad about Crosby but I was surprised that he would build there and secondly that he got persmission.

THe legal worries are felt with practiclly everything and if it is your first I would guess you are worrying too much

FreeAnd.. · 17-02-2006 1:05pm

Originally Posted by MorningStar

If you aren't on the ground level you should be alright but your car might not do so well.

The apartment would be on the third floor but paying 25k for a parking spot that could end up under water is a no starter. Also the lifts will go to the basement so if the ground level gets flooded then that can only adversly affect the whole development and I don't fancy trying to sell on an apartment a few years down the line if the area is hit with a big flood in the future.

As you said MorningStar its pretty hard to judge that area for flooding because of how it rises and dips all around there. I must find out if there are any plans for improvement to the drainage etc. I know that it is planned for the canal to be re-opened and re-designed but that sounds more like marketing talk because I have been unable to find out if it will be possible to walk onto the canal from ossory road or if the spencer dock development (and the new Macken St Bridge) will be directly accessible via car/foot.

There does seem to be a higher than normal amount of risk associated with these apartments and even if the area gets fully re-developed with loads of new apartments, all of the problems with Title etc could put them at the bottom of the list when it comes to selling....

bullrunner · 17-02-2006 1:22pm

FreeAnd.. wrote:

Hi,

Has anybody signed/about to sign contracts for apartments in Crosbies Yard? I am currently in the process of buying a 2 bed apartment and have been waiting since November to sign the contracts. They were finally sent out last week and our solicitor raised a number of pre contract questions that the vendors solicitors had to answer before our solicitor would reccommend that we sign the contracts. Now the problem - the main questions were in relation to Titles and the vendors solicitor came back and said that the titles for one section go back as far as 1989 and the other only to 2004 and that anything before that were lost. We were advised that titles should at least go back 20 years and that 40 years was best practice. Our solicitor was seeking an indemnity bond but got nothing and was basically advised that per our contract it was basically take it or leave it. Has anyone else had issues like this with contracts? I have been warned that having titles only going back a few years might hamper a sale down the line. Is this true or is my solicitor simply looking for more money out of me? (Advised that counsel should be sought for advise before proceeding, this will cost an extra few hundred euros).

Any advice would be much appreciated. I don't plan on signing any contracts until I am 100% on the sale.

i had a similar problem with an estate in maynooth...solicitor said that there was problems with legal title and indemnity bonds...he recommended that we walk away from the deal.He said that he would not let us sign the contract as it mean that he wouldnt be protecting our interests to do so. He did say that if we really wanted to buy the house he would put us in contact with a solicitor who would let us sign (ie a cowboy!)

basically its up to you if you want the apt badly enough to overlook potential problems in the future ....

MorningStar · 17-02-2006 1:47pm

FreeAnd.. wrote:

The apartment would be on the third floor but paying 25k for a parking spot that could end up under water is a no starter. Also the lifts will go to the basement.

€25k for parking there? That sounds really high to me. It suits me fine as I have room for 6 cars on my property on North Strand Road. I am really shocked to hear ther will be a basement !

FreeAnd.. wrote:

As you said MorningStar its pretty hard to judge that area for flooding because of how it rises and dips all around there. I must find out if there are any plans for improvement to the drainage etc.

I think the point is not if or could it flood the point is it has flooded repeatedly . It wasn't really a drainage issue as such either the land is very low lying there and putting a basement in sounds like making it worse. THe land there was effectively the sea and while lived on a long time the yard was empty for a reason as far as I remember.

FreeAnd.. wrote:

There does seem to be a higher than normal amount of risk associated with these apartments and even if the area gets fully re-developed with loads of new apartments, all of the problems with Title etc could put them at the bottom of the list when it comes to selling....

I've been waiting for the area to go upi for 20 odd years. THe bowling alley, yard and the lighthouse development are all good signs. The corpo flats are being done too. I really like the area and Cusack is one of the best pubs in Dublin and that is official. I would only think your development has deed trouble. THe lighthouse was once the print factory and the cinema/bowling alley would be clear too. Yards can sometimes turn out to belong to people like CIE. In fact I would say that is very likely in your case. All around the tracks there people have moved borders to take a bit of land.

FreeAnd.. · 17-02-2006 2:08pm

Originally Posted by bullrunner
He said that he would not let us sign the contract as it mean that he wouldnt be protecting our interests to do so.

That was the first basic response that we got from our solicitor, they also stated as Conor74 pointed out earlier that as it stands they could not in good conscience certify the Title for mortgage purposes. I have just heard back from my solicitor today and they said that this scenario might not be too uncommon for land owned by CIE but the reply from the vendors solicitor in relation to an indemnity bond is that there is none and none will be given.

Originally Posted by MorningStar
€25k for parking there? That sounds really high to me. It suits me fine as I have room for 6 cars on my property on North Strand Road. I am really shocked to hear ther will be a basement !

Yeah the price definitely seems over the top, as for the basement I was a bit misleading they are not actually digging below ground but the "under ground" car park will be ground level and the complex is being built on top of that. But if the area floods there is still potential for great damage to cars and I don't know what Insurance would be like...

MorningStar · 17-02-2006 3:32pm

FreeAnd.. wrote:

Yeah the price definitely seems over the top, as for the basement I was a bit misleading they are not actually digging below ground but the "under ground" car park will be ground level and the complex is being built on top of that. But if the area floods there is still potential for great damage to cars and I don't know what Insurance would be like...

Ring the insurance companies and ask them will they insure there. They won't cover certain areas in East Wall. If there is only cars on the lower levels I would think the reason is because of flooding and that would make sense on how they got planning.

Lots of potential damage but it would be seen as acceptable unlike if it was a living area. I really don't ant you to base a decision on what I say but I would suggest checking this all out. I would be very nervous if I was you.

THe golden rule about house buying is don't stop looking untill you have signed. It stops you feeling like you have to buy when something is not right.

Good luck

FreeAnd.. · 17-02-2006 4:28pm

Very True MorningStar, I only plan to buy if I'm 100% and to be honest the more I find out the less likely I am to go with Crosies Yard, in fact its almost a definite no. I am going to keep a close eye on the whole area as I do see alot of potential and I have been living in or around that area for the past number of years. Thanks for all the advice, I think that it only helped confirm what I was feeling in the back of my mind anyway.

Victor · 17-02-2006 11:32pm

The very least I would be happy with would be the 12 years in the Statute of Limitations Act.

For all you know the land could belonf to someone who died in 2003 and theie estate is still being sorted out and while this is happening someone has built on the land without the knowledge of the executors.

Sponge Bob · 18-02-2006 12:59am

Deleted User wrote:

Your solicitor is spot on. The standard rule is that a good root (fundamental starting point) of title must be at least 20 years old. Anything less than that and you may have a difficulty selling the place afterwards.

Unfortunately, the Vendor's hand is so strong at the moment, that they can say 'take it or leave it'.

Spot on Conor, a lot of dodgy title stuff shifts nowadays that will be very hard to shift in a future downturn .

lomb · 18-02-2006 11:21am

Sponge Bob wrote:

that will be very hard to shift in a future downturn .

what downturn? what makes u think the 20% a year price rises wont continue indefinately.remember ireland is a country that always defies logic:D
on a seperate point, i have been told by my solicitor that full title isnt the be all and end all if u get a discount.
in the old pre boom days, auctions were a place that properties with defective titles were offloaded. the solicitor told me about a guy who bought some property for half what it was worth as the deeds were lost. the solicitor told him to 'BUY IT' as hed get a bargain as hed b the only one bidding. he told him hed get him an insurance policy. sure enough he bought it for a steal and the deeds turned up a few years later and he made over a million on it.
anyway buying apartments is a different ballgame. i dont favour the east wall region at all. i think u are better buying in d1 or d2 centers, even in a future saturation and shortage of tenants, center properties will always produce a yield hence protecting value. i think thats worth the small premium. probably a better place to live also, other than pure freehold in the suberbs.

Victor · 18-02-2006 12:27pm

lomb wrote:

anyway buying apartments is a different ballgame. i dont favour the east wall region at all. i think u are better buying in d1 or d2 centers, even in a future saturation and shortage of tenants, center properties will always produce a yield hence protecting value.

With the interconnector and Luas, the area will be just as good as the rest of D1.

lomb · 18-02-2006 12:31pm

Victor wrote:

With the interconnector and Luas, the area will be just as good as the rest of D1.

not quite as good as temple bar or the back of trinity though. also luas will take time to put in and time is money . also i reakon builders are overcharging 15 -20% for new based on many investors wanting new to reclaim vat, the stamp, and everyones desire to buy new.
i certainly wouldnt be paying a premium when the title isnt even in order. find out if these guys will carry the risk http://www.titleguard.ie/
if they arent willing to for .25-.5% of price then forget it.

FreeAnd.. · 20-02-2006 11:07am

Originally posted by lombi certainly wouldnt be paying a premium when the title isnt even in order. find out if these guys will carry the risk http://www.titleguard.ie/

I have contacted First American about a qoute for titleguard with all details about the apartment and title etc and I am waiting to hear back from them. I will post details when I get them. I am just wondering would people really go ahead with buying when they know of the problems with titles etc? I could not imagine buying without everything being in order and the fact that the sellers will not provide an indemnity bond gets me. If they know there are issues with the Title then why not provide the bond? Maybe I am getting confused as to how the whole indemnity bond thing works but are they not for situations exactly like this?

Also, the apartments in Crosbies Yard seem to have been on the market for a long time. Even after we put down our original booking deposit they were available for ages after (we only had a choice of a handful because rest were sold). I am wondering if many people backed out when they found out about the problems with the Titles or if there is just a lack of interest in that particular development.

lomb · 20-02-2006 3:18pm

i dont think there would be a lack of interest with the market today, everyone knows that area will develop lovely within 5 years with the sales of lands around the port and the luas to the point etc.
if there are title problems some people will drop out, it all depends on their solicitor. i have a feeling that the buyer pays the indemnity bond? hence the vendor wont be offering it or paying for it.
can i ask what u are paying and what the square footage is, and if the apartment is south or north facing , and anything else like ensuites, and whether it is dual aspect etc?

FreeAnd.. · 20-02-2006 3:49pm

Originally posted by lomb
can i ask what u are paying and what the square footage is, and if the apartment is south or north facing , and anything else like ensuites, and whether it is dual aspect etc?

The apartment is 675 sqft, dual aspect without ensuite. The apartment is north west facing (into the courtyard) with the bedrooms looking out over the west road. The price of the apartment is 335k but then parking is another 25k so all in all its 360 k. The bedrooms are on the small side, they are long enough but only 8 ft wide so not too much room to make use of. The kitchen and bathroom are fully fitted but again are small enough.

There are currently very few amenities around there, some shops on North strand and the new centra on the way into town but this area is on the way up. I am not sure what is going to happen in regards to linking the development up with Spencer Dock as was the impression that we first got i.e. it would basically be directly linked but there does not seem to be any plans for a through road unless I am mistaken. Currently the development seems to be cut off from the surrounding area and it would be a real shame if the plan is not to fully integrate it with the rest of the development going on in the docklands.

Full details are on:

http://www.crosbiesyard.com/looking.htm#

lomb · 20-02-2006 4:05pm

its very cheap then relatively, u will make 100 grand on it in 2-3 years.. its up to u, if i was u id pay the indemnity if they will carry it and close.
thats a sad thing to say but i think u know im right, the market in dublin is very very strong, and what u have is a very nice apartment, in soon to be prime area with 100% rental prospects. not like d3 or d5 or any other dublin , but prime. its up to u and whether ur soliciitor will sign the for the mortgage that the title is good..

FreeAnd.. · 20-02-2006 4:20pm

u will make 100 grand on it in 2-3 years

You really think there is 100 grand to be made in 2-3 years?? Not too sure about that. As I said there has been no big rush on these apartments at the moment and with the way people are buying you would expect cheaper developments like crosbies yard to be snapped up. They are actually marketed as D1 but are in fact D3 but down the line i'd say it will be integrated to D1.

Also alot of work is needed to do up the area. 2-3 years would be a bit optimistic, I would say more like 5-7.

lomb · 20-02-2006 4:33pm

honestly i do,id say within 3 years for sure ur investment will be worth 100 grand more than what u are paying. my father bought in late 1999 in old money in gardner street at 80000 pounds, and today it has to be worth 300 euro perhaps slightly more. not a 'massive' increase.
but i reakon there will be a push in years to come towards prime apartments in central area with suburban ones suffering.
the main thing is your apartment will always generate a yield renting it. especially with car parking, u have something most dont have.
if u can make the payments and they will the mortgage people will issue the cheque considering the title problems, and u want to live in the area then u cant go wrong.
i wouldnt have any problem personally buying in that area AT THAT PRICE, and u are getting it probably below market value due to your expression of interest 6 months ago??
sure look at it this way all property is rising, if u buy any freehold house in dublin or prime apartment in the city then it will rise at the average dublin rate which must be pushing 15 per cent. even if u had modest growth over the final year down to 8 per year, ud have to be looking at 30% increase.
if u can negotiate a price somewhere else id do that but how long will it take u to do a deal? and remember u are getting this at the price 6 months ago. theres alot to consider there. i think u need advice from your solicitor as to whether he can certify the title as good to draw the mortgage. sure whats the worst case scenario, the title is indemnified and even if u cant sell for some reason it will generate enough return to almost pay the interest on the mortgage and then some.
if it was any other market id tell u to walk away but it isnt..

Victor · 22-02-2006 8:32pm

I didn't realise the development was that near the North Strand. I think it was a bunch of cottages on Ossary Road hit noteriety a few years ago. Possibly something to do with the landlord evicting everyone from the whole terrace.

Development plan map E (10MB) will give you an idea of plans for the area. There will be a park along the canal to the river, housing on the near end of the Spencer Dock site and employment (options open) along the West Road / railway, most likely offices or light industrial. The railways are obviously the dominating feature.

Realise that railway, fire brigade and construction noise will be part of your life.

http://www.dublincity.ie/shaping_the_city/future_planning/development_plan/Maps/mapeset.pdf

MorningStar · 23-02-2006 10:37am

Victor wrote:

I didn't realise the development was that near the North Strand. I think it was a bunch of cottages on Ossary Road hit noteriety a few years ago. Possibly something to do with the landlord evicting everyone from the whole terrace.

Are you thinking of the one where a developer saved a load of cottages from disrepair then rented it to the EHB . WHen he gave the EHB notice of 2 months the tennats got angry. They then refused to leave, threatening people going to look at them, asked the state to buy the houses and went to the papers claiming the landlord was the problem?

rooferPete · 24-02-2006 3:18am

Hi FreeAnd.....

Looks like you have a good Solicitor, one who actually reads the documents put in front of him, when the market starts to balance out good locations will always sell but a title problem could put you in the position of a buyer with a Solicitor as good as yours paying less than similar property is making.

AFAIK the rule is / was that a purchaser had no right to sue his own or the vendors Solicitor after eight years, this rule worked well when people bought a house or apartmet as their primary residence and didn't trade up before the eight year time limit.

Today a good Solicitor will look at the transaction as a possible investment where the purchaser could have the property back on the market within five years, thus leaving him / her open to paying the client damages.
.