What is Karma

DinoBot

DinoBot wrote:

That brings up a question I have. How do buddhists view disabled people or people who are having a tough life, from being poor ...... etc ?

I mean, are these people just working off bad karma. If so, it means they were bad in a previous life and so deserve what they are getting. It is just karma. ????

Were they evil and had everything in a previous life ?

I don't think any of us are in a position to judge others and their circumstances like that. Actions have consequences, and perhaps this is a consequence of their actions in a previous life. It doesn't mean we should ignore them or show them any less compassion than we show anyone else, however. Definitely not a "well you must be a horrible person who deserved it so I'm not helping you" etc attitude is warranted.
Personally I don't think it matters how it started from an outside point of view, only that it's more suffering which they and perhaps those who are in a position to help, should try to overcome. Or cease. I suppose...

Asiaprod

bluewolf wrote:

I don't think any of us are in a position to judge others and their circumstances like that. Actions have consequences, and perhaps this is a consequence of their actions in a previous life. It doesn't mean we should ignore them or show them any less compassion than we show anyone else, however. Definitely not a "well you must be a horrible person who deserved it so I'm not helping you" etc attitude is warranted.
Personally I don't think it matters how it started from an outside point of view, only that it's more suffering which they and perhaps those who are in a position to help, should try to overcome. Or cease. I suppose...

Sorry for my delay, have been away on vacation.
Great answer, I agree totally. We cannot really say why these people are suffering so in this life. There is a school of thought that says we must all experience the four sufferings to progress, Birth, sickness, old age and death. If we miss one, we have to rebirth to experience that suffering. In one way this seems unfair, but in another, it seems correct. I guess it is not just a matter of leading a good life, but leading a life that does account.
What I myself have noticed is that quite a large percentage of people that I would consider to be much better Buddhists than myself seem to be suffering ill health or something else for one reason or another. The same applies for things like being poor or living in bad circumstances. They may have been rich before, but they may have earned their money from say slave labour. It is very tempting to say that they led a bad previous life, but we honestly do not know.

maitri

bluewolf wrote:

I don't think any of us are in a position to judge others and their circumstances like that. (...)
Personally I don't think it matters how it started from an outside point of view, only that it's more suffering which they and perhaps those who are in a position to help, should try to overcome. Or cease. I suppose...

As Acarya Shantideva says in "Bodhicaryavatara" A guide to a bodhisattvas way of life:

“If somebody does something because he is confused,
And another gets angry because he is confused, too,
How can we say who is innocent and who is guilty”

One should be compassionate towards everybody (us selves included). It is confsion and ignorance that creates suffering for everybody, we know that from our own lives and should therefore try not to judge, but to help if we can. And since we are all interconnected (and since our "outward" personality, feelings, thoughts and actions are part of change and impermanence), on a deeper level there is really no receiver and no giver.

If I understand it correctly...

Sounds good, maitri *nod*

Asiaprod

maitri wrote:

“If somebody does something because he is confused,
And another gets angry because he is confused, too,
How can we say who is innocent and who is guilty”...

Very deep maitri, nice quote indeed.

maitri wrote:

“One should be compassionate towards everybody (us selves included). It is confsion and ignorance that creates suffering for everybody, we know that from our own lives and should therefore try not to judge, but to help if we can. And since we are all interconnected (and since our "outward" personality, feelings, thoughts and actions are part of change and impermanence), on a deeper level there is really no receiver and no giver“...

That was very nicely put. Following on from there could we also then say that by helping others we are really only helping ourselves

DinoBot

Thanks all

democrates

Asiaprod wrote:

Following on from there could we also then say that by helping others we are really only helping ourselves

Well, I wouldn't say *only* helping ourselves, some people use that to argue that everything we do is ultimately selfish.

As I posted before:

I measure all acts on the cost and benefit to myself and others. If you don't count all of these you fail to consider the full implications of your actions.
This yields the following behaviour classifications, where C = cost, B = benefit, S = self, O = others :
CS, CO = Destructive
BS, CO = Selfish
CS, BO = Self sacrificing
BS, BO = Constructive

Obviously where there are costs and benefits on one side, it is the net of these that is counted.

Whether the mechanism for consequences is karma, physics, or divine judgement isn't critical, what's most important for me to feel good is to know I've been good.

I'm interested to understand why people look to karma, what question does it answer for them? Is it for the comfort of belief that good is rewarded and bad punished? Are any decisions made differently because of a belief in karma? Or is it possible to behave well purely because it allows contentment to a person who knows right from wrong?

democrates

democrates wrote:

I'm interested to understand why people look to karma, what question does it answer for them? Is it for the comfort of belief that good is rewarded and bad punished? Are any decisions made differently because of a belief in karma? Or is it possible to behave well purely because it allows contentment to a person who knows right from wrong?

Karma basically says that actions have consequences. This is plain enough to see on a daily basis, is it not?
We don't like having karma, because it prevents us from attaining enlightenment. A comfort? Most certainly not.
As for decisions made differently, I don't think mine are. I just don't like doing bad things. But I do keep in mind that what I do has results.

maitri

Asiaprod wrote:

Following on from there could we also then say that by helping others we are really only helping ourselves

I think you are right. On one level I think that all that we do towards our "neighbour" we do towards ourselves, and in a very concrete way.
And I think that realizing this gives us a very sane selfish motive for actions. Nothing wrong with that from my point of view.

When it comes to true unselfishness - or really selflessness - I believe that is when we understand in a deeper way that our normal self, our personality, ideas, and emotions are really empty of absolute being - then we are free, I think. Then we can stop clinging to what is impermanent and changing. Then we can really be of help to ourselves and the world.

This, at least, is how I understand the buddhist teaching of shunyata - emptiness.

Bluewolf wrote: "We don't like having karma, because it prevents us from attaining enlightenment. A comfort? Most certainly not."

I wonder, do you think karma could also been seen as something that can help us attaining enlightenment? That our everyday experiences can be viewed as valuable teachings that we can use - as our own personal dharma"wealth" - to help us on the way. If we don't run away from what it can teach us. (But if we do run, don't worry, it'll happen again and again and again until we learn... That, at least, is personal experience... )
I know some buddhist teachers teach it this way.

maitri

maitri wrote:

I wonder, do you think karma could also been seen as something that can help us attaining enlightenment? That our everyday experiences can be viewed as valuable teachings that we can use - as our own personal dharma"wealth" - to help us on the way. If we don't run away from what it can teach us. (But if we do run, don't worry, it'll happen again and again and again until we learn... That, at least, is personal experience... )
I know some buddhist teachers teach it this way.

I suppose it is useful to learn more about it. I do regard a lot of experiences in life as opportunities to learn more, whether they're good or bad.
I suppose if we don't understand karma we're not going to figure out how to stop getting it.

Asiaprod

asiaprod wrote:

Following on from there could we also then say that by helping others we are really only helping ourselves

democrates wrote:

Well, I wouldn't say *only* helping ourselves, some people use that to argue that everything we do is ultimately selfish.

Point taken, the fault lies with my writting. What I meant to say was that by helping others we are utimatly helping ourselves. Every good or bad thing we do gets directed back to us in the end.

As I posted before:

CS, CO = Destructive
BS, CO = Selfish
CS, BO = Self sacrificing
BS, BO = Constructive

Yes I remember reading this and thinking, how very clever, but then I though, this is also one sided. All conditions here contain the potential for all possible outcomes. It just depends on the situation and the action taken. Any one situation can be Destructive/Constructive/Sacrificial or Benificial.

Whether the mechanism for consequences is karma, physics, or divine judgement isn't critical, what's most important for me to feel good is to know I've been good.

Agree totaly with this.

I'm interested to understand why people look to karma, what question does it answer for them? Is it for the comfort of belief that good is rewarded and bad punished? Are any decisions made differently because of a belief in karma? Or is it possible to behave well purely because it allows contentment to a person who knows right from wrong?

Great question. In my case:
1. Karma allows me to live in the Past, Present and Future. This was one of the attractions of Buddhism for me. I had never come accross a belief system that allowed me to do this. How? By looking at my conditions in the present, I can make a value judgment on my actions in the past. Understanding how my past actions have caused my current condition in the present, I can now make value judgments that will have a positive or negative effect in the future. In effect, I have a big controlling stake in how my future turns out.

2. I do make decisions that are differently because I believe in karma.

3. Is it not the comfort of belief that good is rewarded and bad punished? For me, it is the knowing that that good or bad brings its own rewarded. I do not use the word punish because that implies that something/one punishes me. I punish myself through my own actions.

4. What question does it answer? It is not that it answers a specific question, it is more that it provides me with an understanding of the mechanisms that direct our life/fortune and understanding this enables me to choose the best path for my growth.

They were good question, really had to think there. Thanks

Or is it possible to behave well purely because it allows contentment to a person who knows right from wrong?

Absolutely

democrates

Asiaprod wrote:

Yes I remember reading this and thinking, how very clever, but then I though, this is also one sided. All conditions here contain the potential for all possible outcomes. It just depends on the situation and the action taken. Any one situation can be Destructive/Constructive/Sacrificial or Benificial.

Reality is more complex indeed, applying the method "Obviously where there are costs and benefits on one side, it is the net of these that is counted." :

say an act had a cost of 5 a benefit of 3 for myelf, that's a net cost of 2, and a benefit of 6 and cost of 3 to ohers, that's a net benefit to others of 3, hence I'd call that self-sacrificing.

I was aiming at a way of arriving at summarising an act that is fairer than prevalent uses off the word selfish, but as you point out any summary is not the whole story.

Also like any such measurement system it faces the difficulty that so many things in life are intangible and not so easily measured. Money is supposed to be a satisfactory measure of value. But €5 is worth far more to an ethiopian villager than it is to me. That's because it is based on property. Time would be a far more equitable basis.

Asiaprod wrote:

3. Is it not the comfort of belief that good is rewarded and bad punished? For me, it is the knowing that that good or bad brings its own rewarded. I do not use the word punish because that implies that something/one punishes me. I punish myself through my own actions.

I like your other points, this is my favourite because it reminds me of the adage "giving is its own reward". I've found that knowing your actions are consistent with your beliefs is a great source of contentment, in the past I've tried the alternative and the difference is stark.

Similar to Bhuddists, my beliefs themselves are subject to continuous improvement through reflection and discourse. This raises the issue that past actions may no longer be acceptable under an improved belief set, and my answer to that is I can only do my best as I understand it at any time.

How would this tie in with karma? Is karma based on an absolute truth about right or wrong, or can a Bhuddist do wrong unknowingly and avoid bad karma? I'm gussing this would be a particular class of accident as yoda has described.

Asiaprod

democrates wrote:

I like your other points, this is my favourite because it reminds me of the adage "giving is its own reward". I've found that knowing your actions are consistent with your beliefs is a great source of contentment, in the past I've tried the alternative and the difference is stark.

Oh yes, Buddhism is crystal clear on this one. You are bang on.We turned it the other way round and say that one of the worst slanders is act in opposition to what one professes to believe or say.

Similar to Buddhists, my beliefs themselves are subject to continuous improvement through reflection and discourse. This raises the issue that past actions may no longer be acceptable under an improved belief set, and my answer to that is I can only do my best as I understand it at any time..

Excellent, That is a beautiful phrase Continuous improvement through reflection and discourse, the only thing we can expect of another is for them to do their best as they understand it.

How would this tie in with karma? Is karma based on an absolute truth about right or wrong, or can a Buddhist do wrong unknowingly and avoid bad karma? I'm guessing this would be a particular class of accident as yoda has described..

That's an interesting question. Karma is never a clear cut matter of right/wrong, One thing is clear though, there is no escaping Karma, ever. Unlike in other religions, Buddhism does not come out and give us a list of this is right and this is wrong (The Ten Commandments spring to mind here). It is understood that the right or wrong aspect is created by each individual based on that persons life condition, circumstances or understanding of right and wrong. It is further compounded by culture and race. This is why I love Buddhism, everything is down to me, nobody else. Working within this system I can see for example the following types of Karma:

Deliberate Karma, I kill someone
Indeterminable Karma. A Bushman in the Amazon sees a member from another tribe walking across his tribes land. Tribal custom sees this as a no no, so he shoots and kills the intruder.
Accidental/Shades of Karma, I forget to put air in the car tire cause I have to go into the house to answer an urgent email, my wife takes the car, drives into town, the tire bursts, the car goes out of control and she kills someone. My bad Karma is the greatest, I should have put air in the tire knowing the car was in a dangerous condition, Her Karma is accidental. However, we could also make a case to say she should have been driving more carefully or she should have checked the tires before she drove off. Either way, my Karma is greater than hers.
Inherited Karma, as in carried over from a past existence.
Karma to be incurred in the Future, I am drinking on the beach, I finish my bottle of beer and bury it in the sand. Some time later kids are playing at jumping of the sand dunes. On poor unfortunate jumps right on the bottle which breaks causing the kid a serious injury. Boom, instant Karma. The cause had been made when I buried the bottle, the level of the bad Karma was decided when the kid impacted the bottle and got hurt. The Karma created by burying the bottle was minor, compared to the Karma created when the bottle broke.
I am sure there are many more, just cannot bring them to mind right now.

As you can see, Karma is a fascinating system. In answer to the original question. I would say that the only absolute in relation to Karma is that it exists and that we have to deal with it, and that it exists in shades and degrees. I am not yet sure but I would hazard a guess to say that a Buddhist could not do wrong unknowingly thereby avoiding bad karma. Karma is a result of our actions, If one were to do something unknowingly that caused harm to someone else, I would probably say that then it was the karma of the recipient to be in the position where they got hurt.

Wow that was a mind stretcher. Bear in mind that I am no expert, just another traveler on the road. These are my understandings and as I learn more will undoubtedly change, but I think they are a good starting of point to understand better the amazing workings of Buddhism.

Goodshape

Asiaprod wrote:

Wow that was a mind stretcher. Bear in mind that I am no expert, just another traveler on the road. These are my understandings and as I learn more will undoubtedly change, but I think they are a good starting of point to understand better the amazing workings of Buddhism.

Mind stretcher indeed . Good post, cheers. My mind seems to have been avoiding this forum for a couple of months but I'm glad I read that.

Asiaprod

Goodshape wrote:

Mind stretcher indeed . Good post, cheers. My mind seems to have been avoiding this forum for a couple of months but I'm glad I read that.

Thanks, nice top see you around. Any reason why the avoidance. Maybe I talk too much:)

Goodshape

No, no reason. I think I just got lazy/distracted.

democrates

Asiaprod wrote:

Inherited Karma, as in carried over from a past existence.

I had to give this one a bit of thought because my initial reaction was to dislike the concept as it reminded me of 'original sin' which I was told as a small boy I was guilty of.

However, I now realise how it can serve a very positive role. If a person who has done no wrong is beset with misfortune, instead of being grief-stricken with an innocent victim mentality, they can instead conclude that they must have done wrong in a previous life.

Now their misfortune seems just, they can be calm in the knowledge that it's fair dues, they are paying their debt, and can focus on living a better life this time. That's a far better state of mind to be in than 'poor me'.

It's also a better deterrent to those who think they'll get into heaven so long as the repent on their judgement day. Of course you'd genuinely be sorry if you're eternal quality of existince were in jeopardy, so I don't see that as very effective.

The reincarnation with Inherited karma however, means you will suffer a sanction equal to your wrong-doing in the future, you'll have to work it off. Far more effective and just to my mind.

A most enjoyable thread this, clap on the back for all

Asiaprod

democrates wrote:

I had to give this one a bit of thought because my initial reaction was to dislike the concept as it reminded me of 'original sin' which I was told as a small boy I was guilty of.

Nice to see you back. Yes, I too went through this one and found it to be a very unfair system. Same as I view the act of confession, which I am adamant can in no way repair the damage inflicted by what ever the action being confessed caused. That to me is the original get out of Jail Free card. Inherited karma makes a whole lot more sense to me. Plus, I have to be the one to try to fix it myself. I feel this system to be much more fair.

MeditationMom

Hi Everyone,
It is your Karma discussion that initially got me interested in joining this Forum-
I used to do life regressions with people, and sometimes people would come back years later for further sessions. It became clear that the "memories", real or imagined, changed as people solved issues in their lives. Their karmic debt was flexible, flowing like water.

A Japanes master once told me that time and space are opposites, like night and day, fast and slow etc. It took me twelve years of meditation and when not meditating, thinking and reflection, to discover that that is true, and why.

And to make a long story short and to proclaim a truth - in the Present, Karma does not exist, neither does it exist to one who has realized himself, because there is no one there. It is when a person goes from being loving or unloving -(therefore creating and experiencing Karma)- to being Love itself. So present, so conscious no matter what they did or said it was an expression of Love itself, even if they hit someone over the head or yelled at them. I am fortunate to have met a few people like that in my life - they are free.

hairyheretic

If you reincarnate, are you the same person as you were before?

If you are not, why should you be burdened with what is effectively the consequences of someone elses actions?

I have no issue with karma (or wyrd in my case) within an individual life. I'm not so sure about it extending beyond that.

Are you the same person as you were years ago, HH?

hairyheretic

I have only improved with age

*looks at waistline* And there's more of me

My question stands though. I am still responsible for the actions I have taken in days gone by, and can correct them since I can see and understand what they were.

Without knowledge of the actions of a previous life, how can you take action on those? And if you are a different person, should you have to take action for things the current you never did?

My point on "are you still the same" is to suggest that you're only as different as you would be given time anyway. Different yes, but it's not entirely random.
I duno, if you can see from your actions in the past that there are certain consequences and understand them then you must also realise thatany actions you take will have consequences in the future.
Your actions also have consequences on other people around you. Karma is about cause and effect, not "you did this so this deserves to happen to you".
(Sorry I'm bad at this, my brain is fried from maths)

Without knowledge of the actions of a previous life, how can you take action on those?

You deal with things as they happen, you don't speculate at length on their possible origins. Whether you caused them to happen or not they're still happening now and you still have to sort em out.

Argh.
I'll try again later, sorry.

Goodshape

I'd also have trouble with the idea of inherited karma. It seems a little too much like fate, something compleatly out of my control which determines how my life will go.

Can inherited 'bad' karma be avoided by good deads done in this life? or is it simply unavoidable?

Also, Asiaprod's post earlier on, while very good, only mentioned 'bad' karma -- I assume good karma can also be inherited ?

Argh. Karma is action. It's completely under your control. I *think* there are ways of neutralising it but I don't know.
It's not fate, because it's you who decides your own actions.

And yes "good" karma can be as well. Karma is karma. The labels are just our own.

Goodshape

bluewolf wrote:

Argh. Karma is action. It's completely under your control

But I fail to see the connection between this and my 'past' lives. I would consider any karma I have inherited to be out of my control.

I don't think my opinions on reincarnation and inherited karma have changed much since my first few posts in this thread, not going to reproduce it here so go back and read if you want.

On the otherhand my understanding of how karma works (within one life at least) has increased.

http://www.suanmokkh.org/archive/kamma1.htm

I can't answer the question further - I found this link that may help and asked for some people to explain it to me on another forum, I will report back my results

It is the same stream of consciousness that continues to experience rebirth and the effects of karma.

MeditationMom

Goodshape wrote:

But I fail to see the connection between this and my 'past' lives. I would consider any karma I have inherited to be out of my control.

Yes, out of control. The universe, its laws, God, are taking care of it all. Would you all say that we most often use the word/idea Karma in the negative context? How about good karma? Good and bad Karma at any given point in time is nothing but the glass half full/ half empty, or empty/overflowing attitude we bring to it, is it not? Right NOW, this very moment - are you experiencing good Karma or bad Karma? Do you live in an attitude of "overflowing gratitude" or "willing endurance of all the bad stuff around you?" Cause and effect are just that. Interpretation is "your" karma.

My grand suspicion- Karma does not exist, neither does hell and heaven, in the Present Here Now. My favorite place to hang out.

MeditationMom

MeditationMom wrote:

My grand suspicion- Karma does not exist, neither does hell and heaven, in the Present Here Now. My favorite place to hang out.

If I don't study for my exam tomorrow morning, I'm going to fail. This is the here and now fruit of my action of choosing to avoid study. If I fail my exam, I will have to repeat it or abandon my studies. A further fruit of my action.
If I choose to prepare myself for it properly, I will pass. This is the fruit of my action of studying. If I pass, I will be able to continue my studies. More consequences of my action.

If I choose to help out a friend with something now, they might become able to return the favour to someone in the future. Me? perhaps.

Karma is not some grand mystical thing to think "oh in my next life..."

If you don't want to look at it in this way, consider "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." Physics acknowledges cause and effect

Perhaps we use the term "bad karma" too often - do we dwell too much on bad things that happen/have happened?

MeditationMom

If you don't want to look at it in this way, consider "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." Physics acknowledges cause and effect

I agree totally with that. It's what I meant when I said: "Cause and effect are just that." You said it much better. Karma just seen with detachment, as cause and effect, action and equal reaction, is to me, just a fact of life and speaks of the wonderful harmony and balance in the universe. Karma as such does exist and seems obvious and not even a religious belief, but a scientific, observable fact.

But the interpretation of events as good or bad Karma is the cause for suffering. If a tree falls on your leg and your leg hurts that's just physics.It's also painful (with pain being unavoidable in life, suffering optional, though) and, yes, it took billions of years of events, including all of your past actions and thoughts, which scientifically are nothing but physical events, to have it happen in just that way, but suffering from it, after you interpret it as good or bad, instead of just saying "OUCH" (very much in the moment in that case), that use of the term Karma is purely our imagination, and that is what I meant when I said -it doesn't exist.

So you are quite right and at the same time with pure logic can't we also say that in the very present moment of now, there is no cause and effect, because cause and effect can only exist in time and space, which are, according to many teachers and my own experience - just an illusion.

Thanks for calling me on my vague expression of the point I was trying to make. Very helpful. Is this more clear and would you agree?

Ah you referred simply to the labels! Then yes I would agree

Hm this calls for another reading of the diamond sutra I think, "what is called x does not exist"...

Asiaprod

bluewolf wrote:

Perhaps we use the term "bad karma" too often - do we dwell too much on bad things that happen/have happened?

Indeed we do. It is a tendency to refere to karma only when bad things happen, hence the negative conatation. Karma is defined by the person and his actions. At its simplest, Karma is the term used to describe the outcome of the action.
Good action, good karma
Bad action, bad karma

If often helps to replace the word karma with the word fortune