The Overtaking Lane!!!

Jumpy

jd wrote:

If there is no need to move to the overtaking lane-don't.

No actually, normally I would agree with uneccesary maneuvers being the bad thing, but moving out into the right lane to facilitate merging vehicles is actually common courtesy.

Jumpy

.... double post.

Alun

Jumpy wrote:

No actually, normally I would agree with uneccesary maneuvers being the bad thing, but moving out into the right lane to facilitate merging vehicles is actually common courtesy.

... and merging motorists adapting their speed to that of the traffic on the main road so that I don't have to move out into the overtaking lane unnecessarily is common courtesy too, but you don't see many of them doing that. The problem with everyone pulling out into the overtaking lane to facilitate mergers all the time, even if it isn't necessary, is that people get used to that state of affairs, and end up barging their way onto the main carriageway anyway with the attitude that "Sure, someone will move over and let me in". If someone does, then that's fine, but just don't start to rely on it, that's all. It's not your call to decide on whether a car can safely pull over to let you on, it's his and his alone.

Jumpy

Alun wrote:

It's not your call to decide on whether a car can safely pull over to let you on, it's his and his alone.

And in most countries it isnt your call, its 'merge like a zipper' if he is ahead of you, he has right of way, slower or not, and this works.
This country is fantastic, I love it, but noone has a bloody clue on the roads.

Alun

Jumpy wrote:

And in most countries it isnt your call, its 'merge like a zipper' if he is ahead of you, he has right of way, slower or not, and this works.

Which ones are those then? I've driven in half a dozen different countries in Europe for protracted periods of time (i.e. tens of years) and haven't come across a single one where traffic joining a motorway / dual carriageway doesn't have to yield / give way to traffic on the main carriageway.

"Merging in turn" or "zip merging" is the rule in many countries on the continent as you mention, but this is refers to situations where two lanes of traffic of equal priority are merging, for example at road works, and has absolutely nothing to do with merging from a slip road onto another road that has priority. Get your terms straight.

Anyway, the "it's my call" bit referred to whether or not it was safe, for me, to move over a lane to let someone onto the main carriageway. Whatever you say, the only person who can determine that is me, by looking in my rear-view mirror, and deciding on the basis of what traffic is behind me, how fast it's going and my own determination of what's going on there whether it's safe or not. No one else can make that decision for me. It may be that if it turns out that isn't safe to do so, and the person "merging" appears to be intent on just barging on regardless, I'll have to do something else like slowing down slightly to let him on. A lot of the times in Ireland though you'll find muppets trying that manoeuvre at 60km/h merging with traffic doing 100 or 120km/h, and in these cases your options are severely limited. Usually though you can spot them from a good distance away, and have a bit more time to get out of their way, but it remains one of the worst aspects of driving in Ireland in my opinion.

This country is fantastic, I love it, but noone has a bloody clue on the roads.

I agree. And your point is?

gerrycollins

Jumpy wrote:

No actually, normally I would agree with uneccesary maneuvers being the bad thing, but moving out into the right lane to facilitate merging vehicles is actually common courtesy.

as i said it best practise to move over so long as you dont impeed traffice already on the overtaking lane. for example if i were not to pull over and the car along side me does not see me properly and then he comes out on top of me its happened

also if the car merging is ahead of me and enters ahead of me there is always some muppet either joining late and causing all to brake or someone unsure of their turn off slowing down could lead to carnage,

moving over to the overtaking lane again is best practise and safer driving so long as i dont impeed drivers already there and i return to the left lane ASAP, as a driver i have to worry about my own driving and that of others as soon as i begin to think of only myself i will crash.you have to expect the unexpected on roads no matter what country you are in and read what other drivers are doing and prepare for what they may or may not do

Jumpy

Alun wrote:

Which ones are those then? I've driven in half a dozen different countries in Europe for protracted periods of time (i.e. tens of years) and haven't come across a single one where traffic joining a motorway / dual carriageway doesn't have to yield / give way to traffic on the main carriageway.

"Merging in turn" or "zip merging" is the rule in many countries on the continent as you mention, but this is refers to situations where two lanes of traffic of equal priority are merging, for example at road works, and has absolutely nothing to do with merging from a slip road onto another road that has priority. Get your terms straight.

Anyway, the "it's my call" bit referred to whether or not it was safe, for me, to move over a lane to let someone onto the main carriageway. Whatever you say, the only person who can determine that is me, by looking in my rear-view mirror, and deciding on the basis of what traffic is behind me, how fast it's going and my own determination of what's going on there whether it's safe or not. No one else can make that decision for me. It may be that if it turns out that isn't safe to do so, and the person "merging" appears to be intent on just barging on regardless, I'll have to do something else like slowing down slightly to let him on. A lot of the times in Ireland though you'll find muppets trying that manoeuvre at 60km/h merging with traffic doing 100 or 120km/h, and in these cases your options are severely limited. Usually though you can spot them from a good distance away, and have a bit more time to get out of their way, but it remains one of the worst aspects of driving in Ireland in my opinion.

I agree. And your point is?

If there was a 'Give way' sign, then I would agree with you. But there isnt, so I dont.

Thats not to say I agree with 60km/h idiots merging into a 120 zone but if you ram up their arse because of it then the insurance company will probably still rule in favour of the car ahead.
The slip road becomes part of the motorway for a good distance before merging is forced, and with no signposted right of way this says to me that all 3 lanes are of equal priority, prove me wrong and I will accept it. The only part that people dont seem to notice is that they are all the same speed limit.

Alun

Jumpy wrote:

If there was a 'Give way' sign, then I would agree with you. But there isnt, so I dont.

There may not be, but the Rules of the Road, and common sense, explicitly state that you must give way to traffic on the motorway. Also the Road Traffic Regulations state that if you're joining a major road from a minor road, regardless of any lack of signage, you must also give way. Pretty basic stuff, really.

Yielding Right of Way

8. (1) Save as otherwise indicated by a traffic sign in respect of which an article in these Regulations refers, a vehicle shall yield right of way where a provision of this article applies.
<snip>
(5) A driver of a vehicle approaching a road junction by a road which is not a major road shall, notwithstanding that there is no traffic sign indicating that the last mentioned road is a major road, yield the right of way to traffic and pedestrians on the major road.

Fey!

Alun wrote:

"Merging in turn" or "zip merging" is the rule in many countries on the continent as you mention, but this is refers to situations where two lanes of traffic of equal priority are merging, for example at road works, and has absolutely nothing to do with merging from a slip road onto another road that has priority. Get your terms straight.

In Germany, they have to let through every second car merging onto the motorway (Zipper, as described previously)

Alun wrote:

I agree. And your point is?

That sounds like you're being rude. Any particular reason?

Alun

Fey! wrote:

In Germany, they have to let through every second car merging onto the motorway (Zipper, as described previously)

I lived in Germany for 7 years and Holland for 13 years, and was well aware of the zipper rule for merging lanes of traffic of equal priority, like when a crawler lane disappears or at roadworks. They had the same thing in Holland and it worked very well. I can also see how this would work when merging onto a motorway with very slow moving traffic, but it's not practical or sensible for most other situations. I suppose they could have changed it since I left, but it still doesn't make sense to me except under the circumstances outlined above?

That sounds like you're being rude. Any particular reason?

Not particularly, anyway it wasn't in response to your post.

EDIT: If you speak German read this article http://www.123recht.net/article.asp?a=15690 . Rough translation ... when joining a motorway, the zipper system does NOT apply. The difference? Traffic on the motorway always has priority.

Jumpy

Alun wrote:

Not particularly, anyway it wasn't in response to your post.
.

It was in response to mine, and he mirrored my thoughts at the time.

Anan1

Just read the article. Looks like rude Alun was right.

Alun

Jumpy wrote:

The slip road becomes part of the motorway for a good distance before merging is forced, and with no signposted right of way this says to me that all 3 lanes are of equal priority, prove me wrong and I will accept it.

From the Rules of the Road ...

JOINING THE MOTORWAY
When you join the motorway by way of a slip road you must give way to traffic already on the motorway. Watch for a safe gap in the traffic in the left-hand lane and adjust your speed as you join the motorway in order to match, as nearly as possible, the general speed of traffic in that lane. Stay in the left-hand lane long enough to adjust to the speed of traffic before attempting to overtake.

Again, this is pretty basic, fundamental stuff, and I'm surprised there are people out there who don't know this.

Steve

Alun wrote:

Which ones are those then? I've driven in half a dozen different countries in Europe for protracted periods of time (i.e. tens of years) and haven't come across a single one where traffic joining a motorway / dual carriageway doesn't have to yield / give way to traffic on the main carriageway.

Belgium for a start. unless there's a diamond sign on the motorway then oncoming traffic has right of way.

Priority and Yield

Another common sign is the yellow diamond, indicating PRIORITY over the intersecting road. The intersecting road will have an inverted triangle sign, white with a red border, meaning YIELD. If neither road has a sign, the vehicle on the right has the right of way.

The PRIORITY yellow diamond stays in effect until you pass another yellow diamond with a diagonal line across it. Unposted intersections are rare in the countryside but common in the cities. Watch out. Europeans, especially taxi drivers, who are making a right turn do not even look for oncoming traffic since they have the right of way at unposted intersections. If they are going straight through, they only look to the right. If they see that a pump on the accelerator will get them into the intersection before another vehicle gets there, they do it.

source:
http://www.enjoy-europe.com/hte/chap18/auto.htm

Alun

stevec wrote:

Belgium for a start. unless there's a diamond sign on the motorway then oncoming traffic has right of way.

That isn't valid for motorways, and I seem vaguely to recall that in Holland and Belgium there actually were such signs just as you join the motorways just to reinforce the point. Even in Belgium you have to give way to traffic already on the motorway. Having lived in Holland only 20kms from the Belgian border for 13 years, I know this, believe me. Honestly, I don't know why we're even having this discussion, it's fundamental, basic driving knowledge folks.

unkel

Alun wrote:

Honestly, I don't know why we're even having this discussion, it's fundamental, basic driving knowledge folks.

Not only that, it makes perfect logical sense also

There's a bit of a gap from theory to practice though. Merging onto a motorway is a skill one needs to develop, to accelerate on the sliproad to about the speed of the cars you are going to merge with and to find a space to safely merge into. A lot of time is dedicated to this during driver training in the Netherlands e.g.

In Ireland it is not even part of the test. The test that hundreds of thousands of people haven't passed...

Fey! wrote:

In Germany, they have to let through every second car merging onto the motorway

Nah, that specific law only applies to BMWs in Germany

AMurphy

Alun wrote:

From the Rules of the Road ...

JOINING THE MOTORWAY
When you join the motorway by way of a slip road you must give way to traffic already on the motorway. Watch for a safe gap in the traffic in the left-hand lane and adjust your speed as you join the motorway in order to match, as nearly as possible, the general speed of traffic in that lane. Stay in the left-hand lane long enough to adjust to the speed of traffic before attempting to overtake.

Again, this is pretty basic, fundamental stuff, and I'm surprised there are people out there who don't know this.

Nothing wrong there, however, it might have gone the other half of the story, and indicate that it woudl be a good idea for the car already on teh highway to similarly adjust to the the incoming traffic.
The aboce assumes (wrongly) that all on the highway are perfect citizens and driving well spaced (2 seconds seperation per code), but that is rarely the case.
When you got a chain of cars scooting along so close together that a gnat woudl have difficulty merging, matters have to be "pressed home" by whatever means is possible, else you could be left on the shoulder for miles.

OTOH, I'd never reccommend my sisters habit of lollygaggin onto the highway at 40, popping out in front of whatever is coming at her at 80 and expecting them to stop... that's the other extreme.