Irish Judges-soft touches for immigrants

Zombrex

Freddie59 wrote:

For God's sake...........a licenced medical clinic with licenced staff, where adults go of their own free will......versus.......????

A gang of militia chasing down women and girls of a village, holding them down and slicing away at their genitals with a army knife while they scream and struggle ...

That is what is commonly referred to as "genital mutaliation" when people speak of refugees fleeing gential mutaliation.

Victor

Delboy05 wrote:

Add in the recent not guilty verdict in the case againat a nigerian who killed a child he circumscribed,

Circumcised?

constitutionus

Freelancer wrote:

No you claimed that he was commiting the exact act that people were fleeing africans countries from. I corrected you that no female gential multilation was something women were fleeing from, and for you to suggest this was allowing someone to commit an act which people were claiming asylum from, was simply scarmongering. Which is incidently what you are still doing.

no your deliberatly missinterpreting what i said. at no point did i mention the gender of the child. mearly that genital mutilation had taken place. and people have fled their home countries to avoid that , be they male or female.they fled those countries in fear of the death of their children which in this case it has, and you continue to avoid that point with ridiculous examples involving staff who are medically trained , liscenced and insured and comparing them to what amounts to a child abuser.
your arguement is intellectually bankrupt. no parent has the right to endanger the life of their child by allowing a layman to preform a surgical act on him or her. if social service even thought you were contemplating it they have your kids in care before you could blink

constitutionus

Wicknight wrote:

A gang of militia chasing down women and girls of a village, holding them down and slicing away at their genitals with a army knife while they scream and struggle ...

That is what is commonly referred to as "genital mutaliation" when people speak of refugees fleeing gential mutaliation.

actually your wrong. female genetial mutilation is usually preformed at the behest of the family (usually the mothers in law for some reason) this is a cultural tradition. not the act of some invading army or state impossed rule. its preformed in dozens of countries in africa and asia and indeed takes many forms, some not a million miles from what the jews preform on boys to the grotesque practical amputation of the genitals. for the record i dont agree with it
but its not some way of terrorising people, its a religious thing tied into certain interpretations of islam
take the case in galway of the nigerian woman who fled her country with her daughter, it was the family specifically the husbands mother, who wanted this preformed and indeed had this preformed on one of her other kids which resulted in the kid bleeding to death.
now personally i dont think thats grounds for asylum, she should have just legged it from the family, no need to come here any more than if you were getting hassle from your family. put her case neatly illustrates the point

Freelancer

constitutionus wrote:

no your deliberatly missinterpreting what i said. at no point did i mention the gender of the child. mearly that genital mutilation had taken place. and people have fled their home countries to avoid that , be they male or female.

There is plenty of evidence of women fleeing gential multilation. Aside from the episode of South park can you offer any evidence of men fleeing gential multilation?????????

they fled those countries in fear of the death of their children which in this case it has,

Can you provide a single example of someone fleeing a country because their male child was facing a circumision?

and you continue to avoid that point with ridiculous examples involving staff who are medically trained , liscenced and insured and comparing them to what amounts to a child abuser.

Child abuse. DEAR GOD WONT SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!!

your arguement is intellectually bankrupt. no parent has the right to endanger the life of their child by allowing a layman to preform a surgical act on him or her. if social service even thought you were contemplating it they have your kids in care before you could blink

And again for the hard of thinking. IRISH. RABBIS. COMMIT. THE. SAME. PROCEDURE. ALL. THE. TIME. Without medicial training. But hey keep the fingers in your ears. Your vase impression is coming along nicely.

Freelancer

constitutionus wrote:

countries in africa and asia and indeed takes many forms, some not a million miles from what the jews preform on boys to the grotesque practical amputation of the genitals. for the record i dont agree with it
but its not some way of terrorising people, its a religious thing tied into certain interpretations of islam

Again unlike female gential multiation which is done for the sole reason to remove sexual pleasure, meanwhile statistics prove male circumision can decrease chances for gential cancer, and is also sometimes necessary; for other reasons. My young brother needed it cause well, er, the filling, was well, bigger than the wrapping, and needed a circumision in his 20s.* There's no medical justifible reason for a female circumision but several for males.


*and yes ladies it does run in the family

constitutionus

Freelancer wrote:

And again for the hard of thinking. IRISH. RABBIS. COMMIT. THE. SAME. PROCEDURE. ALL. THE. TIME. Without medicial training. But hey keep the fingers in your ears. Your vase impression is coming along nicely.

read back a few posts mate, they have trained professional with em. love it when someone cant back up their case:)

edit; post no. 60 by flex

billy the squid

In reference to Dellboys first case, this is not evidence of the courts giving light sentences to black people, it is just evidence that Judge Carol Moran is an idiot.

He has given light sentences to people of all colours

A man died as a result of the actions of this man and won's serve a single day in jail
http://www.live95fm.ie/newsroom/indepth.asp?pt=n&id=70275

heres another gem from Carol Moran
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1560758&issue_id=13673

A man given a walloping while he slept and his attacker didnt serve a single day in jail either.

Zombrex

constitutionus wrote:

read back a few posts mate, they have trained professional with em. love it when someone cant back up their case:)

Well then surely it would be how the procedure is carried out that you object to, not it actually is being carried out?

I still have no idea what this has to do with the original topic, but talking about people getting parts of their privates chopped off is always good I suppose.

Freelancer

constitutionus wrote:

read back a few posts mate, they have trained professional with em. love it when someone cant back up their case:)

Really can you find me a single name of a Mohelim in Ireland? I cannot. I've jewish friends in Ireland, theres simply not enough work to justify a Mohelim in Ireland so I stand by my claim.

If you search under Mohelim (your trained professional) they list a number of people trained in the uk and US none of them an accredited Irish health care professional.

Considering this is someone who was frothing at their mouth about people fleeing gential mutlitation; your gleeful claims about "love it when someone can't back up their case" is a bit rich.

constitutionus

Wicknight wrote:

Well then surely it would be how the procedure is carried out that you object to, not it actually is being carried out?

I still have no idea what this has to do with the original topic, but talking about people getting parts of their privates chopped off is always good I suppose.

actually its more whos doing it because the case were talking about didnt involve a qualified practicioner liscenced to do the job and freelancer was basically saying theres no difference between a qualified doctor going at your nads and some bloke off the street , personally i dont like the idea of anyone preforming surgery thats not necessary but there a cultural issues involved in this one. and i still stand by me statements , medical procedures require a professional

constitutionus

Freelancer wrote:

Really can you find me a single name of a Mohelim in Ireland? I cannot. I've jewish friends in Ireland, theres simply not enough work to justify a Mohelim in Ireland so I stand by my claim.

If you search under Mohelim (your trained professional) they list a number of people trained in the uk and US none of them an accredited Irish health care professional.

Considering this is someone who was frothing at their mouth about people fleeing gential mutlitation; your gleeful claims about "love it when someone can't back up their case" is a bit rich.

keep digging boy, your near china now:D

Freelancer

constitutionus wrote:

actually its more whos doing it because the case were talking about didnt involve a qualified practicioner liscenced to do the job and freelancer was basically saying theres no difference between a qualified doctor going at your nads and some bloke off the street , personally i dont like the idea of anyone preforming surgery thats not necessary but there a cultural issues involved in this one. and i still stand by me statements , medical procedures require a professional

Which if you'll note again, is what the accused would have liked. Again I've pointed out that jewish circumision is carried out often without a health care practioner. You started on this tread with some jibberish about gential mutilation, since discredited and are now on some point about health care professionals. Do you need a hand? You've dropped some of the straws you're clutching at.

constitutionus

Freelancer wrote:

Which if you'll note again, is what the accused would have liked. Again I've pointed out that jewish circumision is carried out often without a health care practioner. You started on this tread with some jibberish about gential mutilation, since discredited and are now on some point about health care professionals. Do you need a hand? You've dropped some of the straws you're clutching at.

what are you talking about? mickey, razor, dead kid. what more do you need

Freelancer

constitutionus wrote:

keep digging boy, your near china now:D

What. the. ****? You claim that the jewish circumision is carried out by a professional. You claim that people flee countries because they're afraid for their children's well being, be they male or female, facing circumision. When asked to support these absurd claims, you what? Claim I'm clutching at straws? You're the one leaving a trail of sh*te like you're a stallion with the runs. Yet I'm the one making sh*te up?

Go home...........

Zombrex

constitutionus wrote:

and i still stand by me statements , medical procedures require a professional

Ok, but then their are two issues here then

Firstly, if the procedure itself is considered malicious, and will harm or damage the child. Female mutilation certainly does, it permently alters the girl. But I think the argument that male circumcision does is weaker.

Secondly, if the procedure is carried out in safe(ish) and professional circumstances.

I know you feel the second case was not met, that this was an untrained "doctor" who performed in the procedure in a back alley abortion kinda way and had no professional training or support. Therefore he put the child in risk, even if it was unintentionally.

But then there is the first issue of maliciousness.

As Freelancer has said male circumcision are carried out in professional health services all over the world, including Ireland, and it isn't considered a crime, or damaging to the child. You might disagree.

So really should the book have been thrown at this African "doctor" as you suggest? He didn't get a way scott free on this after all. He was charged with a serious crime, but not manslaughter, because the DPP believed (as far as I know) that there was no malicous intent to harm the boy, any more than a Rabbi has a malicious intent to harm a infant when he performs a circumcision in a safe professional environment

constitutionus

Freelancer wrote:

What. the. ****? You claim that the jewish circumision is carried out by a professional. You claim that people flee countries because they're afraid for their children's well being, be they male or female, facing circumision. When asked to support these absurd claims, you what? Claim I'm clutching at straws? You're the one leaving a trail of sh*te like you're a stallion with the runs. Yet I'm the one making sh*te up?

Go home...........

*bawl, bawl* baby lost his rattle:rolleyes: read the thread, FLEX contributed the claim about the jewish circumsism, i trusted his knowlegde on the issue to further the discussion, the case were talking about was a muslim case, not a jewish one. you keep dismissing the dangers of male circumcission but consistantly avoid the fact the kid that died wasmale. your obviously too infantile to talk rationally with . do us a favor , and grow up

Hobbes

I know everyone is arguing over the second part of the OP post but I have still yet to find any story about the first part, namely..

A nigerian caught selling on 500k worth of heroin in limerick to an undercover grada had his madatory 10 year sentence reduced by 2 years as he pleaded guilty (thats bad enough but it gets better), and had a further year taken off the sentence because,according to todays Irish Times, the Judge 'acknowledged that it was difficult for a foreign man and "in particular a black man" to be incarcerated in an Irish prison and reduced Ashibougwu's sentence by a further year because he was a "black Nigerian man".

The closest I can find is this... (a story that isn't more then 3 years old I mean)
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1560666&issue_id=13673
http://www.limerickpost.ie/dailynews.elive?id=7101&category=Daily-Thu

So thats most likely it, even though the OPs facts don't align exactly with it.

So I look for court information on that. I Can't find it. Or rather I can find someones blog (so I take it as suspect at best)
http://thelimerick.blogspot.com/2006/02/ashibougwu-given-seven-years-after.html

I can find absolutly nothing about the sentancing at all in any newspaper.

Tell you this much, doing a search on keywords of the first story I found this drug case is quite tame compared to the others I found.

Freelancer

constitutionus wrote:

*bawl, bawl* baby lost his rattle:rolleyes: read the thread, FLEX contributed the claim about the jewish circumsism, i trusted his knowlegde on the issue to further the discussion, the case were talking about was a muslim case, not a jewish one. you keep dismissing the dangers of male circumcission but consistantly avoid the fact the kid that died wasmale. your obviously too infantile to talk rationally with . do us a favor , and grow up

I think anyone who's reading this thread will read your red herring about "fleeing gential multilational" and the semantic quibbling you're reduced to, to try mantain a semblance of a point.

pete

there are four moderators of the politics board

no, really

(yes, this is a test)

Freddie59

Wicknight wrote:

You seem to not understand what the term "racist" actually means.

If this Judge had said this man will commit more crimes in the future, and should recieve a harsher sentence, because he is a black man and as we all know all black men are criminals, that would be racist

Equally, if this judge had said this man is harmless, he will not commit any more crimes in the future, because he is a black man and as we all know all black men are nice law abiding people, that would be equally racist.

Saying this man will have a harsher time in prision, and possibly recieve racist treatment in an prision, because he is black and and because he is a Nigerian, is not a racist statement since it is making no judgement at all about the person himself based on his race.

It would not be racist statement to say that in 1955 a black man would probably not be welcome in a dinner in Alabama, or not welcome to ride up in the front of the bus in Carolina, because he is a black man.

It would not be a racist satement to say that in 1980 a black man would find it hard to get a job in South Africa as a banker or doctor or Prime Minster of the country, because he is a black man.

Now you might not agree that a black Nigerian is going to have any harsher a time in an Irish prision than anyone else. Obviously the judge disagrees, and he acted accordingly, as Judges do every day of the year in and out with "native" Irish people. And a lot of those decissions people disagree with or think are too lenient.

But there is no racism going on here, positive or otherwise. As far as I can see no statement on the individual himself has been made with regard to stereotypes of his race.

What complete and utter twaddle. You can dress this up any way you like. An exception was made in this man's case specifically because he was.........BLACK! It is positive discrimination in his favour. Give me some examples of where people were given this preferential treatment because the judge said they were WHITE!

You keep mentioning the word native. What's all that about? Irish people are natives of this country. Asylum seekers ARE NOT. Full stop.

In my opinion it is ludicrous to reduce a sentence because of this argument. Plain and simple. A crime is a crime. The time should be served.

santosubito

Hobbes wrote:

I know everyone is arguing over the second part of the OP post but I have still yet to find any story about the first part, namely..



The closest I can find is this... (a story that isn't more then 3 years old I mean)
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1560666&issue_id=13673
http://www.limerickpost.ie/dailynews.elive?id=7101&category=Daily-Thu

So thats most likely it, even though the OPs facts don't align exactly with it.

So I look for court information on that. I Can't find it. Or rather I can find someones blog (so I take it as suspect at best)
http://thelimerick.blogspot.com/2006/02/ashibougwu-given-seven-years-after.html

I can find absolutly nothing about the sentancing at all in any newspaper.

Tell you this much, doing a search on keywords of the first story I found this drug case is quite tame compared to the others I found.

This is the case in question:



Man jailed after €500,000 heroin seizure
Irish Times, Tuesday, February 21


A man who was caught with heroin worth almost €500,000 after he sold drugs to an undercover garda, has been jailed for seven years.

Emmanuel Ashibougwu (26), originally from Nigeria but with an address at Crescent Villas Limerick, was arrested by gardaí last August during an elaborate operation set up to target drug trafficking by foreign nationals in the Limerick region.

Operation Ivory led to the seizure of heroin worth €500,000 - the biggest single seizure of the drug in the Limerick region.

Before jailing Ashibougwu for seven years at Limerick Circuit Court yesterday, Judge Carroll Moran praised gardaí for the "capable manner" in which they apprehended the man and co-accused Mohammad Kargbo, during the undercover operation.

A native of Sierra Leone but with an address at Anne Street Limerick, Kargbo was jailed for one year yesterday after he pleaded guilty to possession of heroin with intent for sale or supply on August 18th last.

Ashibougwu received a seven-year sentence after he pleaded guilty to the more serious charge of possession of heroin with intent for sale or supply.

Earlier this month the court heard how Det Sgt Ronan McDonagh contacted Ashibougwu who told him that he had 2.5kg of heroin for sale.

An arrangement was made to buy one kilo for €25,000 and a meeting was set up between Ashibougwu and undercover garda Pádraig Sutton.

Garda Sutton met Ashibougwu on Henry Street, bringing with him a plastic bag containing 25 bundles of paper to give the "semblance" of large amounts of cash. Ashibougwu asked Garda Sutton if he was a policeman and if he was wired. He warned the garda that he would kill him if he "f****d him over".

The undercover garda was in constant contact with Sgt McDonagh and after a pre-arranged signal, he went with Ashibougwu to a nearby cul-de-sac where the drugs were handed over.

Kargbo acted as a lookout and he was not aware of the type or value of drugs being sold.

Judge Moran said the Nigerian father of one was entitled to a sentence reduction because of his guilty plea and because he had no serious previous convictions.

He acknowledged that it was difficult for a foreign man and "in particular a black man" to be incarcerated in an Irish prison and reduced Ashibougwu's sentence by a further year because he was a "black Nigerian man".

Hobbes

Thanks santosubito. Pretty incredible but while searching for the story I did find more on Judge Moran. This is normal for him.

sceptre

pete wrote:

(yes, this is a test)

PM me to let me know what it's a test of

Victor

Freddie59 wrote:

What complete and utter twaddle. You can dress this up any way you like. An exception was made in this man's case specifically because he was.........BLACK! It is positive discrimination in his favour. Give me some examples of where people were given this preferential treatment because the judge said they were WHITE!

Women are systematicly treated more leniently by the courts because of their position in society.

Freddie59

Victor wrote:

Women are systematicly treated more leniently by the courts because of their position in society.

I said colour.....not gender.;)

Victor

So sexism is OK by you then? You find benevolence based on race is bad, but based on sex is good?

Bambi wrote:

Judges dont reduce sentences for natives because they're from Sutton and wouldnt really fit in with the prison population, which is what seems to have happened here.

So how many people from Sutton are in prison? Better off people, committing the same crime is similar circumstances have the habit if getting better deals than their less well off counterparts.

Bambi wrote:

__________________ ye lookin'?

Is this an offer to sell drugs?

Dyr

Victor wrote:

Better off people, committing the same crime is similar circumstances have the habit if getting better deals than their less well off counterparts.

most judges dont have the brass neck to say they're reducing a sentence because they like your address, it takes some effort and string pulling to benefit in court from good breeding. Seems this chap got a sentence reduction for just showing up in court with a sympathy inducing skin colour. Handy

Victor wrote:

Is this an offer to sell drugs?

Is your second name bravo by any chance? I'm afraid it's only a sig

:v: <plainclothes sigpo, sketch lads!!

Zombrex

Freddie59 wrote:

An exception was made in this man's case specifically because he was.........BLACK!

No, an exception was made because the Judge believed he will face a significantly harder time in prision because he is black and Nigerian (I assume he still is black). But then the exception was 1 year out of 10 year sentence, hardly giving him a slap on the wrist and sending him on his way.

Like I said, would it be racist to say a black man would have recieved a harder time than a white person in 1950s Alabama or 1980s South Africa?

You don't seem to understand what "racism" is. I said that in the last post and you have done nothing to change that perception.

Freddie59 wrote:

It is positive discrimination in his favour.

No its not. For a start someone has to be discriminated against in positive discrimination and no one is being discriminated against for the benefit of this person.

Freddie59 wrote:

Give me some examples of where people were given this preferential treatment because the judge said they were WHITE!

None, because being white on its own doesn't put you at any disadvantage in the Irish prision system. Just like being white on its own would not put you at any major disadvantage in 1950s Alabama or 1980s South Africa.

Seriously, what part of that do you not get. I would think it would be perfectly obvious.

There are plenty of cases where a white Irish person has been given a lenient sentence based on other factors.

Freddie59 wrote:

You keep mentioning the word native. What's all that about?

That was the word Delboy used to describe those who are seeming being screwed over by the Irish legal/prision system. I assume he means white Irish people.

Freddie59 wrote:

Irish people are natives of this country. Asylum seekers ARE NOT. Full stop.

Your grasp of the obvious is breath taking

Freddie59 wrote:

In my opinion it is ludicrous to reduce a sentence because of this argument. Plain and simple. A crime is a crime. The time should be served.

Thats fine, but as I said before, your issue is not with the race of the criminal, or the decision of the Judge to reduce his sentence because of the threat of racism in prision. Your beaf apparently is with the entire system of Judges making judgement calls as whether to be lenient or not to a criminal. ANd this happens all the time to good god-fearing white native Irish folk. So, again, I fail to see the positive-racism or the discrimination against white Irish people taking place here.

Zombrex

Bambi wrote:

Seems this chap got a sentence reduction for just showing up in court with a sympathy inducing skin colour. Handy

I would say he planned that all along .... :rolleyes: