Two solid reasons why McDowell's proposed garda reserve force won't work

DublinWriter

1. They are unpaid.

What exactly will the motivation be for people to join the reserve force when it will be an unpaid corps? The words 'power' and 'trip' spring to mind.

You could argue that the UK has successfully integrated an unpaid reserve corps into their county forces, but I'd argue about the basic professionalism of the UK police as a whole in comparison to the garda here.

2. No effective disciplinary procedures.

At present, any breach of the Garda Code by a member of An Garda Síochána is normally dealt with by a temporary decrease in pay. How exactly will reserve members be 'punished' for transgressions?

3. No power of arrest

Consider the following rare, but possible, scenario. A reserve member is patrolling with a regular member. Someone jumps out and knocks the regular member unconscious. Any attempt by the reserve member to detain the person who knocked out the regular member would be, not could be, interpreted by a court as 'illegal detention' and the case would be struck-out.

A solution.

Recently I had to visit my local garda station to have an insurance claim form stamped. The young member took my form, then had to take a phone call, then had to do a vehicle check that came in via radio, then had to eventually deal with my form.

With the Health Service groaning at the seems with over 100,000 Clerical Civil Servants (who don't deal directly with patients), wouldn't it make sense to re-deploy these Civil Servants into local garda stations where they could handle desk-enquiries, take phone calls and do routine vehicle checks for members.

flogen

DublinWriter wrote:

1. They are unpaid.

What exactly will the motivation be for people to join the reserve force when it will be an unpaid corps? The words 'power' and 'trip' spring to mind.

You could argue that the UK has successfully integrated an unpaid reserve corps into their county forces, but I'd argue about the basic professionalism of the UK police as a whole in comparison to the garda here.

Impossible to compare, but I agree that the risk of power trippers is a serious one; the fact that your next door neighbour could be patrolling your street worries me too; what about settling some personal vendettas as a reason for joining up?
I'm sure many will join the GRF for genuine reasons, they cannot commit full time to the force but want to serve their community; just like the RDF, but it only takes one idiot and a few days training...

2. No effective disciplinary procedures.

At present, any breach of the Garda Code by a member of An Garda Síochána is normally dealt with by a temporary decrease in pay. How exactly will reserve members be 'punished' for transgressions?

I assume (read:would like to think) that they would be kicked out.

3. No power of arrest

Consider the following rare, but possible, scenario. A reserve member is patrolling with a regular member. Someone jumps out and knocks the regular member unconscious. Any attempt by the reserve member to detain the person who knocked out the regular member would be, not could be, interpreted by a court as 'illegal detention' and the case would be struck-out.

The reserve force will have the power to arrest... or has that changed?

A solution.

Recently I had to visit my local garda station to have an insurance claim form stamped. The young member took my form, then had to take a phone call, then had to do a vehicle check that came in via radio, then had to eventually deal with my form.

With the Health Service groaning at the seems with over 100,000 Clerical Civil Servants (who don't deal directly with patients), wouldn't it make sense to re-deploy these Civil Servants into local garda stations where they could handle desk-enquiries, take phone calls and do routine vehicle checks for members.

I think the use of civil servants in clerical roles in stations would be somewhat limited as all the paper stamping and other menial tasks have to be done by a member of An Garda Siochana; so it's either a change in the law or else we just put the reserves behind the desk, but no one is going to sign up for free to push paper.
At present they might be able to answer the phones, but they probably wouldn't be able to do much besides pass the call onto the right Garda in the station. The same applies for desk enquiries.

I think the GRF will fail because the Gardai Representative Association and Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors oppose the move.

Nuttzz

I think they have said that reservists will not patrol their own areas.

The potential for power trippers is major, just look at how many the force currently has.

Having said that I wouldnt fancy being a one of the first garda reservist and turning up at a station, i could only imagine the reception one would get from full time members.

DublinWriter

flogen wrote:

I think the use of civil servants in clerical roles in stations would be somewhat limited as all the paper stamping and other menial tasks have to be done by a member of An Garda Siochana; so it's either a change in the law or else we just put the reserves behind the desk, but no one is going to sign up for free to push paper.

From the 20 or so minutes I spent waiting for my form to be stamped, the Guard had to deal with the following:

- Two kids coming in with a stray dog and looking for the number of the local ISPCA
- A guy coming in looking for a Driving Licence renewal form
- A PULSE vehicle check via radio

Now tell me which of the above tasks a civillian wouldn't be able to do?

The_Minister

DublinWriter wrote:

1. They are unpaid.

What exactly will the motivation be for people to join the reserve force when it will be an unpaid corps? The words 'power' and 'trip' spring to mind.

You could argue that the UK has successfully integrated an unpaid reserve corps into their county forces, but I'd argue about the basic professionalism of the UK police as a whole in comparison to the garda here..

They could do out of social respect, curiosity about wheater they want to be Gardai or if they have a social councience

DublinWriter wrote:

2. No effective disciplinary procedures.

At present, any breach of the Garda Code by a member of An Garda Síochána is normally dealt with by a temporary decrease in pay. How exactly will reserve members be 'punished' for transgressions?.

They are volunteers. Easy to get rid of.

DublinWriter wrote:

3. No power of arrest

Consider the following rare, but possible, scenario. A reserve member is patrolling with a regular member. Someone jumps out and knocks the regular member unconscious. Any attempt by the reserve member to detain the person who knocked out the regular member would be, not could be, interpreted by a court as 'illegal detention' and the case would be struck-out..

Citizens arrest. I'm fairly sure a normal person has the right to detain criminals

Nuttzz wrote:

I think they have said that reservists will not patrol their own areas.

They did.

civdef

The Oireachtas has passed a Garda Act providing for the formation of a Garda Reserve, the Minister for Justice has followed the Act in getting proposals from the Commissioner as to how it should be set up and run.

Contrary to what the GRA/AGSI appear to believe they are not responsible for deciding law enforcement policy or for determining which legislation is enacted. They are treading on very dodgy ground if they want to subvert the Oireachtas.

bonkey

DublinWriter wrote:

1. They are unpaid.
...
2. No effective disciplinary procedures.
...
3. No power of arrest

So which of these three are the solid reasons mentioned in teh topic, and which is the red-herring?

A solution.
....

The solution is "simple":

Fix the gross inefficiencies across the board in our various civil services and semi-states. This will free up more than enough money to pay for the needed improvements, rather than trying to implement something on the cheap* cause we can't afford the cost of doing it right.

jc

* 'On the cheap' should be interpreted to mean "apparently cheap up front, but undoubtedly will become a massive sink-hole for cash over time".

The_Minister

bonkey wrote:

Fix the gross inefficiencies across the board in our various civil services and semi-states. This will free up more than enough money to pay for the needed improvements, rather than trying to implement something on the cheap* cause we can't afford the cost of doing it right.
.

But that involves firing people, and firing people involves losing votes.

Akrasia

Any Irish citizen can make a citizens arrest if we have a reasonable suspicion that a criminal offence has been committed as long undue force is not used and we hand the person over to an Arresting officer at the earliest possible opportunity

second point, The Garda reserve force won't be doing administrative tasks so they have nothing to do with those wasted garda resources.

The power trip thing is a huge issue, another problem is that if, as Mcdowell says, the reserve force won't be allowed to operate in their own areas, this means they would have to drive long distances from where they live in order to volounteer, how many people would be prepared to do this? If they can operate locally then there is the risk of personal issues affecting how they do their job.

lostexpectation

civdef wrote:

The Oireachtas has passed a Garda Act providing for the formation of a Garda Reserve, the Minister for Justice has followed the Act in getting proposals from the Commissioner as to how it should be set up and run.

Contrary to what the GRA/AGSI appear to believe they are not responsible for deciding law enforcement policy or for determining which legislation is enacted. They are treading on very dodgy ground if they want to subvert the Oireachtas.

so now its the gardai themselves subverting the government! MCdowell the last defender of the throne

Baggly

flogen wrote:

what about settling some personal vendettas as a reason for joining up?

and what if a garda (not sure if singular is guard or what) had a vendetta against you. same situation exists now.

Litcagral

[QUOTE=DublinWriter

- Two kids coming in with a stray dog and looking for the number of the local ISPCA
- A guy coming in looking for a Driving Licence renewal form
- A PULSE vehicle check via radio

Now tell me which of the above tasks a civillian wouldn't be able to do?[/QUOTE]




Re PULSE check - the vehicle registration checks will also show up any intelligence which is logged against the vehicle. It is general practice to keep matters like this as confidential as possible. Even the proposed GRF will not be allowed access to this intelligence, never mind civillians.

Cork

If people want to volenteer more power to them.

The Gardai are just resistant to change. If people were involved in commumity policing we may not have got the scandal that took place in Donegal.

Where there was a unhealthy culture of cover up.

Fair play to McDowell - probably one of the best Ministers for Jutice ever.

lostexpectation

Cork wrote:

If people want to volenteer more power to them.

The Gardai are just resistant to change. If people were involved in commumity policing we may not have got the scandal that took place in Donegal.

Where there was a unhealthy culture of cover up.

Fair play to McDowell - probably one of the best Ministers for Jutice ever.

the seen to be doing something effect :rolleyes:

flogen

Cork wrote:

If people want to volenteer more power to them.

The Gardai are just resistant to change. If people were involved in commumity policing we may not have got the scandal that took place in Donegal.

Where there was a unhealthy culture of cover up.

Fair play to McDowell - probably one of the best Ministers for Jutice ever.

I think an independent garda ombudsman is the only plausable hope of an end to Garda cover ups and so on; a volunteer force will not improve the situation one bit.
I have yet to see anything that would imply to me that McDowell is a good minister for justice, if anything he has tried to re-invent the idea of democratic and fair justice, but that's another thread for another day I suppose.

Victor

DublinWriter wrote:

1. They are unpaid.

So are the Defence Forces Reserves (except when on active duty, whether on camp or doing barrack duties). You don't see a bunch of Corporals hocking hand grenades at €20 a pop in Rathmines, do you?

DublinWriter wrote:

2. No effective disciplinary procedures.

The Defence Forces Reserves appear to have reasonably effective disciplinary procedures.

DublinWriter wrote:

3. No power of arrest

This would appear to be incorrect.

John_C

DublinWriter wrote:

1. They are unpaid.

Just like the St. John's Ambulance and a whole host of other trust worthy organisations.

DublinWriter wrote:

2. No effective disciplinary procedures.

That's probably true of the guards in general and is something which needs to be addressed. If anything, a part time officer who's livelyhood is not under threat is more likely to break the code of silence which exists in that organisation.

Victor

I'm wondering. Student gardaí get paid for studying / training. The part-timers won't. What happens if a part-timer becomes a full-timer?

And what of the concept as they had in the North of a part-time reserve and a full-time reserve?

AngryBadger

It's all been said really.

The point regarding the excess of civil servants within the government in general is a very good one. If civil servants can't simply be re-routed from other positions, particularly if they're present to excess costing the exchequer ridiculous money, then we can't slve the current deficit in police numbers by freeing up more of the administrative officers.

The problmes of power abuse are always going to be an issue, the only reason this might be a particular problem with the reserve seems to relate to how would they be reprimanded, but surely a suitable punitive mechanism can be written into whatever document is/has been drafted to outline their duties/powers/responsibilities?

Victor

The Reserve Defence Forces are larger than the Permanent Defence Forces. Thats 10,000+ people, part-timers, who do anything from 15 hours to 15 weeks per year. We trust them with assault rifles and live ammunition every week of the year.

And while the DF have less contact with the public than the Garda in a working day, there doesn't seem to have been a profound problem with them.

DublinWriter

Cork wrote:

The Gardai are just resistant to change.

Can you blame them? Banjaxed cars, an unsecure radio communications network and rat-infested stations. Let's add 4,000 amateur slueths to the mix. But let's blow €52 million on evoting and a couple more million on PR consultants to cover the screw-up.

Cork wrote:

If people were involved in commumity policing we may not have got the scandal that took place in Donegal. Where there was a unhealthy culture of cover up.

Failure to appoint an Ombudsman with 'teeth' was more to do with that. Remind yourself who's been in power for 18 of the last 20 years.

Cork wrote:

Fair play to McDowell - probably one of the best Ministers for Jutice ever.

McDowell is a crytpo-facist with more interest in protecting his own position of power and cowering behind a mandate than doing the right thing by the citizens of this state. Where are the 2,000 extra full time guards he promised in 2002? Where are the 3,000 extra guards he promised in 2004?

pork99

I think a reserve is a good idea in theory but not as a cheap substitiute for the several thousand extra regular full time Gardai pounding the beat and supressing gangsters that we actually need.

If they are introduced they need to function as a purely auxiliary service with limited powers - useful for events when a lot of extra police manpower is required and doing basic low-level routine tasks. Also they could be useful in providing specialist knowledge from their full time jobs eg I.T. specialists

The_Minister

DublinWriter wrote:

Where are the 2,000 extra full time guards he promised in 2002? Where are the 3,000 extra guards he promised in 2004?

They are in training.

DublinWriter

Firespinner wrote:

They are in training.

Are they? How many exactly over the usual intake?

Turner

Slightly offtopic but..

Intakes are now 300 taken in every 3 months. It takes 58 weeks of training until students are attested.


58 weeks, how long will the reservists be trained for ???

DublinWriter

Chief--- wrote:

Intakes are now 300 taken in every 3 months. It takes 58 weeks of training until students are attested.

Which probably just about covers retiring members.

...so no extra guards in training then.

Sand

Which probably just about covers retiring members.

...so no extra guards in training then.

The Gardai number 12-14,000 last I heard. Unless 10% of the Gardai are at retirement age every single year - which would mean all of them are at least in their 50s - then 1,200 recruits every year is ever so slightly more than required to recover retiring members...

NewDubliner

pork99 wrote:

I think a reserve is a good idea in theory.....If they are introduced they need to function as a purely auxiliary service with limited powers - useful for events when a lot of extra police manpower is required and doing basic low-level routine tasks. Also they could be useful in providing specialist knowledge from their full time jobs eg I.T. specialists

How much will they be paid to stand in the firing line (like yesterday) & will they get free medical cover?

segadreamcast

NewDubliner wrote:

How much will they be paid to stand in the firing line (like yesterday) & will they get free medical cover?

They won't have to stand in the firing line. They can take over desks at stations like Santry, and allow more fully trained guards to stand in the firing line. Thus, everybody wins.

It's a really sensible plan, when you think objectively over the "LA LA LA, FIANNA FAIL GET EVERYTHING WRONG, LA LA LA" mentality.

Victor

Sand wrote:

The Gardai number 12-14,000 last I heard. Unless 10% of the Gardai are at retirement age every single year - which would mean all of them are at least in their 50s - then 1,200 recruits every year is ever so slightly more than required to recover retiring members...

But many gardaí retire / resign from the force before retirement age.

Sand

But many gardaí retire / resign from the force before retirement age.

True, but Id be shocked if it was anything like 10% retiring every year.