Two solid reasons why McDowell's proposed garda reserve force won't work

NewDubliner

NoelRock wrote:

They won't have to stand in the firing line. They can take over desks at stations like Santry, and allow more fully trained guards to stand in the firing line. Thus, everybody wins.

AFAIK, they will not be allowed access to Garda computer systems, so I cannot see them being able to do much desk work.

Remind me: How much would they get paid?

Victor

NewDubliner wrote:

Remind me: How much would they get paid?

Travel and uniform expenses.

lostexpectation

Publicans, taxi-drivers to be barred from garda reserve
06/03/2006 - 09:51:49 breakingnews.ie

Publicans and taxi drivers are reportedly among a list of professions that will be barred from joining the proposed garda reserve.

Reports this morning said the two were among a wide-ranging list of professions that Garda Commissioner Noel Conroy wanted barred from the 4,000-strong reserve.

Others on the list include nightclub owners, bookmakers, solicitors, auctioneers, court staff, private detectives, security guards and active members of political parties.

The holders of any licence issued by the courts, the Revenue Commissioners or the Gardaí will also be excluded.

pork99

I can't see anyone joining it now

“It is a direct attack on the force which has been in the front line of defending this state since its inception in 1922,” he said.

“Yet here we have a Minister for Justice proposing to hand full police powers to untrained, volunteer citizens who will be able to walk away when things get tough and who will have no loyalty to the service or to you.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2006/03/06/story247953.html

If you join it's likely you'll face a lot of hostility from the regular Gardai - why would anyone bother?

Mr Dirwan said the amateur reservists would be offered only 3% of the training given to full-time gardaí. He also claimed part-time gardaí would only be required to participate, not to qualify or pass final exams, nor would they have to complete a physical test.

Mr Dirwan noted that police reserves or special constables only existed in five European countries. He said they represented between 7% to 10% of the total police strength but claimed the Justice Minister had proposed a reserve of up to 40% of the garda rank.

The Gardai to consist of 40% semi-trained hobby-bobbies! :eek: That's just mental!

I smell another fiasco in the making

However why not target recruiting former Gardai who might have taken early retirement as the core of the reserve? There must be at least a couple of thousand former Gardai around who have resigned from the force in their 30s and 40s so still fairly active plus they already have training and experience. When that's in place then perhaps look at a civilian reserve but on a smaller scale and with a much higher level of training and selection. While more regular cops are desperately needed a reserve force need to go for quality over quantity not 40% of the force!

John_C

pork99 wrote:

The Gardai to consist of 40% semi-trained hobby-bobbies! :eek: That's just mental!

Just a word of warning there, you've fallen for a two numerical tricks.

1. If you read the numbers carefully you'll notice that the gardas have introduced a few rounding errors. 4,000 reservists and a regular force of 14,000 is just under 30%.

2. 30% of the size of the trained force is about 22% of the total force (trained and reserve) which is the figure from abroad which it's being compaired to.

You can argue that 22% is still a lot (which it is) but I'm naturally suspicious of someone who uses tricks like the above to support his argument.

pork99

OK then -

The Gardai to consist of 22% semi-trained hobby-bobbies! :eek: That's just mental!

It looks like what is being proposed is to use reservists as a substitute for regular Gardai not as a supplement to them.

Victor

John_C wrote:

1. If you read the numbers carefully you'll notice that the gardas have introduced a few rounding errors. 4,000 reservists and a regular force of 14,000 is just under 30%.

4000/(4000+14000)= 22.2%

coolhandluke

John_C wrote:

Just a word of warning there, you've fallen for a two numerical tricks.

1. If you read the numbers carefully you'll notice that the gardas have introduced a few rounding errors. 4,000 reservists and a regular force of 14,000 is just under 30%.

2. 30% of the size of the trained force is about 22% of the total force (trained and reserve) which is the figure from abroad which it's being compaired to.

You can argue that 22% is still a lot (which it is) but I'm naturally suspicious of someone who uses tricks like the above to support his argument.

From www.garda.ie :

RANK APPROVED CURRENT
STRENGTH STRENGTH
Commissioner 1 1
Deputy Commissioner 2 2
Assistant Commissioner 10 10
Chief Superintendent 47 47
Superintendent 171 173
Inspector 294 294
Sergeant 1,973 1,939
Garda 9,700 9,517
TOTAL 12,198 11,983

*Data sourced at H.R.M. Branch on 30/12/2003.

14,000 members is purely a government commitment as far as i know,John_C i think your the one who's fallen for the numerical tricks.If the number of garda rank has scraped over the 10,000 mark at this stage you'd be lucky.

swiss

I think the proposed reserve force can work, but I do believe that the existing garda force will need to co-operate in order for it to be declared a success. From what I can tell there are essentially two viewpoints, the first that this reserve force will serve as a replacement for Gardaí that we were promised but as yet have not been received and the second is that they will act as a supplementary resource to the existing force and not as a replacement.

I can see why the idea of getting people to do the work of gardaí with minimal training and experience might seem offputting to a lot of people, but I would argue that this reserve force is likely going to be used in scenarios where garda presence and not garda action is the important factor. City patrols and garda checkpoints on roads are two examples that spring to mind.

I don't think extending their mandate beyond this kind of scope is a good idea because many of the reservists probably won't have the training to provide a professional level of service. But even if a reservist has only 3% of the training of a full time guard, as one source on this thread was quoted as saying, then I don't see why they can't be deployed to help with 3% of the duties of a guard, particularly if those duties are related to the preservation and maintanance of public order.

John_C

Victor wrote:

4000/(4000+14000)= 22.2%

Like I said:

John_C wrote:

2. 30% of the size of the trained force is about 22% of the total force (trained and reserve) which is the figure from abroad which it's being compaired to.

coolhandluke wrote:

14,000 members is purely a government commitment as far as i know

As is the 4,000 reserves. I was comparing like with like.

Victor

Sorry John, it was late and I misread what you were saying.

coolhandluke wrote:

From www.garda.ie :

RANK APPROVED CURRENT
STRENGTH STRENGTH
Commissioner 1 1
Deputy Commissioner 2 2
Assistant Commissioner 10 10
Chief Superintendent 47 47
Superintendent 171 173
Inspector 294 294
Sergeant 1,973 1,939
Garda 9,700 9,517
TOTAL 12,198 11,983

*Data sourced at H.R.M. Branch on 30/12/2003.

14,000 members is purely a government commitment as far as i know,John_C i think your the one who's fallen for the numerical tricks.If the number of garda rank has scraped over the 10,000 mark at this stage you'd be lucky.

They appear to not actually not know how many they have. They did a survey where every Garda was to state what they did on a particular day (uniform duty, detective, rest day, training, annual leave etc.) and they came up 2,000 short. I suspect the current 14,000 figure includes all Garda employees, including admin staff, technicians and cleaners.

John_C

Victor wrote:

Sorry John, it was late and I misread what you were saying.

No problem, I was a bit verbose because I wanted to avoid potting an equation on the page.

Victor wrote:

They appear to not actually not know how many they have.

Surley they pay saleries every month? They must know how many people they're paying. I would guess that the survey is the lass accurate means of measure because they presumably missed people who were on sick leave or away on hollidays or (snigger) undercover.

In any case, I don't follow these things closely enough to know properly. I was just pointing out the funny maths. I'm always suspicious of people who use exagerations to back up their argument, it gives me the impression that they don't believe what they're saying themselves and have another motive.

DublinWriter

Victor wrote:

They appear to not actually not know how many they have. They did a survey where every Garda was to state what they did on a particular day (uniform duty, detective, rest day, training, annual leave etc.) and they came up 2,000 short. I suspect the current 14,000 figure includes all Garda employees, including admin staff, technicians and cleaners.

Complete b*ll****. a) What's the source on that 14,000 figure and b) what survey are you referring to? The same guard can't be a detective one day and uniformed the next.

Victor

DublinWriter wrote:

Complete b*ll****. a) What's the source on that 14,000 figure and b) what survey are you referring to? The same guard can't be a detective one day and uniformed the next.

Out of date

Internal survey (maybe be on oireachtas.ie)

4,528 	 uniform operational duties 
 1,200 	 detectives  
 449 	 plain clothes work 
 671 	 administrative duties 
 2,395 	 resting 
 886 	 annual leave  
 290 	 training courses 
 10,419

Budget (2004?)

11,950 	Garda
 71 	 	Traffic wardens
 958 	 	Admin
 902 	 	Industrial
 596 	 	Students
 14,477  	Total

garda.ie

Commissioner:		1
Deputy Commissioner:	2
Assistant Commissioner:	9
Chief Superintendent:	47
Superintendent:		168
Inspector:		292
Sergeant:		1,965
Garda:			9,263
Total:			11,747

Rockdolphin

Slogans and gimmicks have not bothered the thugs thus far and I doubt they are trembling in their designer trainers at the thought of yellow pack gardai on the horizon. And on the horizon they will be, getting Mr's Murphy's cat down from the tree while the scum continue to wreak havoc in the safe knowledge the yellow pack gardai will not be seen in the likes of deepest Darndale !

'Ah Mrs Murphy didn't we do a great job in gettin' yer oul cat back.... by the way, the upstairs light was still on at 4 this morning, your Mary is keeping late hours and people will be talking.....and that young fellow down the raod with the fancy car and exhaust making all the noise... we'll be havin' a word with him, we know his boss and he won't be too happy at the hours that fellow keeps so you'll have no more noise from him...take care now Mrs Murphy and by the way don't forget to tell himself to give the ould hedge a trim this week'

The_Minister

Rockdolphin wrote:

Slogans and gimmicks have not bothered the thugs thus far and I doubt they are trembling in their designer trainers at the thought of yellow pack gardai on the horizon. And on the horizon they will be, getting Mr's Murphy's cat down from the tree while the scum continue to wreak havoc in the safe knowledge the yellow pack gardai will not be seen in the likes of deepest Darndale !

Better reservists getting the cat then full gardaí

dublincitadel

DublinWriter wrote:

Two solid reasons why McDowell's proposed garda reserve force won't work

1. They are unpaid.

2. No effective disciplinary procedures.

3. No power of arrest

That's 3 reasons ?? but i agree, i don't think it will work either, and to add it will leave a big gaping hole in the internal security apparatus of the civil power.

The RDF (formrely FCA) Works for the army, as a reserve force (though i think they should be a 'properly augmented' Reserve to the Army) But civil policing is different in many ways. Unworkable and clumsy solution.

Freelancer

Rockdolphin wrote:

Slogans and gimmicks have not bothered the thugs thus far and I doubt they are trembling in their designer trainers at the thought of yellow pack gardai on the horizon. And on the horizon they will be, getting Mr's Murphy's cat down from the tree while the scum continue to wreak havoc in the safe knowledge the yellow pack gardai will not be seen in the likes of deepest Darndale !

'Ah Mrs Murphy didn't we do a great job in gettin' yer oul cat back.... by the way, the upstairs light was still on at 4 this morning, your Mary is keeping late hours and people will be talking.....and that young fellow down the raod with the fancy car and exhaust making all the noise... we'll be havin' a word with him, we know his boss and he won't be too happy at the hours that fellow keeps so you'll have no more noise from him...take care now Mrs Murphy and by the way don't forget to tell himself to give the ould hedge a trim this week'

Seriously this argument is just so bad, I find myself agreeing with firespinner.

Community police officers are in london and do an effective job dealing with the stuff police shouldn't have to be bothered with.

Theres a really excellent scene in the third series of the Wire (yes it's fiction but fiction written by a homocide dectective with 20 years experience in baltimore a murder and drug capital of the US) were a resident of a drugs riddled area rallies againist a senior police officer, that cops just aren't the street anymore, you don't know their name, they don't talk to you, you don't trust them.

Community police officers will be on the street will know the community, so for example when canvas witness's after a crime will have a rappore with the community, will know the people and the area. They will be able to hopefully resolve issues within the community without taking them further.

Yes there will be small minded petty power drunk shíts. But sod it, we have that now anyway, I don't see how this will make it worse.

NewDubliner

Freelancer wrote:

Community police officers will be on the street will know the community, so for example when canvas witness's after a crime will have a rappore with the community, will know the people and the area. They will be able to hopefully resolve issues within the community without taking them further.

Did I hear that the government expects employers to give time off with pay for this?

The key question that remains to be answered in modern Ireland, where most people are working all the time to pay mortgages and child-minders, is 'who will volunteer & why?'.

Rockdolphin

How is the reserve garda force going to be a community police force if as Herr Mcdowell has indicated they will not serve in their own local areas ? Why are we following a policing model from a country such as the UK which has a higher crime problem than here ? Just exactly what are the yellow pack police going to do to resolve the crime situation that the regular police cannot do ?

coolhandluke

Rockdolphin wrote:

How is the reserve garda force going to be a community police force if as Herr Mcdowell has indicated they will not serve in their own local areas ?

It won't be and as they can only serve with a full time officer that argument is a pile of crap anyway,policing on the cheap nothing else.

Rockdolphin wrote:

Why are we following a policing model from a country such as the UK which has a higher crime problem than here ?

Eh,because we can't come up with any new idea ourselves.

Rockdolphin wrote:

Just exactly what are the yellow pack police going to do to resolve the crime situation that the regular police cannot do ?

Nothing.

Victor

Interesting, but not necessarily bad twist from Phoenix Magazine (6 April 2006)

mickcarroll10

The overall numbers of gardai as at 20 March, 2006 was 12,445 (all ranks).

People are clouding their opinions with their dislike for McDowell.

Garda reserves work inmany counties throughout the world.

mickcarroll10

pork99 wrote:

OK then -

The Gardai to consist of 22% semi-trained hobby-bobbies! :eek: That's just mental!

It looks like what is being proposed is to use reservists as a substitute for regular Gardai not as a supplement to them.

How did you work that out?

NewDubliner

Jack O'Neill wrote:

Just to say openly that I'm a serving Garda Reserve.

Do you do this without pay? Why?