My new article

MaxBax

i'm a black belt in nife d-fens.

Dave Joyce

Hi Dave, leaving aside the fact that you didn't counter any of my agruments just put plenty of smoke around them (which of course is in no way representative of your style of self defence training) I'll counter your comments directly.

Just where did I not answer any of your arguements, (mind you I'll readily admit I normally TOTALLY ignore anything you have to say), and I will answer them where as I can't you answering my original points, just what you fancy arguing with. So who is blowing smoke up whose ass??

That's right, my previous knife defence was delusional. What I have now is the ability to run well. I don't train stab, I didnt say I didnt need to or am so great in general that I dont need to. I just dont, that said I am still better now than I was then at defending a knife. If you see a conflict there you have either grammer or logic issues. Wiehter I train or not has no bearing on weither STAB is top notch are not. You can see that I hope, its fairly straight forward.

Try READING my post, which shouldn't be too difficult for you seeing as I am a lowly educated working class slob (in your opinion of course) and unlike your superior third level education (once again in your opinion). My point was you totally ignore what a number of posters have already stated when there are times when running is not an option, and yet after ONE STAB seminar which you no longer bother to train, you give your worldly advice on these type of situations. The irony is great, particularly, if I after ONE BJJ seminar started to advise you about your groundgame

How do you think this statement, follows, adds, completes etc the above statement. How would that have anything to do with what I said. Yes "someone who thinks there no need for all that RBSD "stuff" and no need to learn anything about knives in this country." except I am very good at using knifes in the kitchen, "nobody beats me in the kitchen". Are knives in this country different to others? I mean will the knife defence an Israli shows you not work in Ireland?

Call it my poor education but I don't have a clue what the friggin hell you're talking about in this piece!

No, I clearly am not sharing my knowledge with you. What I am doing is presenting an alternative opinion. This has 2 effects:
1; Hopefully makes you think because I genuinely think that someone who aligns themselves with SEALS is at least one of many bad things.
2; People who come on here not knowing much will see that MMA presents a nice, friendly and realistic enviornemnt. Couple this with all the MMA related posts and soon we have a nice cultural shift that you can't change. MMA is taking over.
In any event your arguement is a waste of time, its like saying how many NAZIs have I met. I can observe actions and outcomes (read: piles of chared corpses from 3rd world countries)

A couple of points on this classic piece. Firstly, seeing as the Machados and others train the SEALS, do you regard them in the same light?? I have NEVER argued with no 2 only the "realistic" part, which does not require the same mindset for the street, although perfect for the ring/cage. Maybe its just the grammer you use but comparing SEALS to NAZIS is different and I notice you have observed such actions and outcomes, was this in person and over there or in the media/on the internet???

I'm glad you got a laugh, I dont want to lecture you on ethics although Dr. Stephen Costelloe could, he's an expert in the field. Again, I really dont know where you got the notion that I want to lecture you on ethics, I simply said "Ethics my man, ethics." which of course somehow can be rehashed into "Dave Joyce, I want to lecture you on ethics (in a humouris tone).

Very impressive name-dropping but its wasted on a lowly like me, as I haven't a clue who the good Dr is! However, maybe you can explain EXACTLY what you meant so I wasn't incorrectly rehashing it.

And as for your poor attempts (I would have expected better insults from a third level student) at insults, bring them on, I find them very amusing.:p

fianna.5u.com

Dave Joyce wrote:

Try READING my post, which shouldn't be too difficult for you seeing as I am a lowly educated working class slob (in your opinion of course) and unlike your superior third level education (once again in your opinion).

Okay Dave, here's a question, when did I voice the opinion that a/ you are a lowly educated working class slob, and b/ I have a superior third level education. I don't remeber saying anything like that. I'd love to see you quote me on the above, if you cant provide such a quote, maybe an apology would be in order? But I dont epect one.

Dave Joyce wrote:

My point was you totally ignore what a number of posters have already stated when there are times when running is not an option, and yet after ONE STAB seminar which you no longer bother to train, you give your worldly advice on these type of situations. The irony is great, particularly, if I after ONE BJJ seminar started to advise you about your groundgame

Wow, Dave that twice now you didnt understand that realy simple point. Me saying STAB is great and not training it is like you doing one BJJ seminar, never training it again and saying "BJJ is great". You see my point is, I dont have to train STAB for it to be great, it is a separate entite to me. Likewise, you dont have to train BJJ to know it is great. I really hope you can understand that now?

Dave Joyce wrote:

A couple of points on this classic piece. Firstly, seeing as the Machados and others train the SEALS, do you regard them in the same light?? I have NEVER argued with no 2 only the "realistic" part, which does not require the same mindset for the street, although perfect for the ring/cage. Maybe its just the grammer you use but comparing SEALS to NAZIS is different and I notice you have observed such actions and outcomes, was this in person and over there or in the media/on the internet???

There is so much (I wont say wrong) that I fundamentally disagree with in that statement. I have no problem with SEALS being compared to NAZIs only instead of the term "compared" I would say "likened", and he Heidigger is one of the greatest minds ever and he was a NAZI, the MAchados being excelent at BJJ doesnt mean I will sudenly think, "wow, the Machodos, political role models." Once again I hope this illustrates: The Machodos dont have to be SEALS to say the training is excelent, they can simply say it.

Dave Joyce wrote:

Very impressive name-dropping but its wasted on a lowly like me, as I haven't a clue who the good Dr is! However, maybe you can explain EXACTLY what you meant so I wasn't incorrectly rehashing it.

Firstly, I wasnt name droping, you pulled the notion of me lecturing you out of the air, so I suggested someone who might be able to lecture you. Once again, your calling yourself lowly, I hope you are in no way suggesting htat I think that, once again if you do, please show me a quote when I suggested this. Thanks.

Dave Joyce wrote:

And as for your poor attempts (I would have expected better insults from a third level student) at insults, bring them on, I find them very amusing.:p

Once again, when did I try and insult you? If I wanted to insult you I wouldnt bother writing replies to your posts. I just say something stupid. As for you finding these imaginary insults amusing, thats great, I was pleased that you found the imaginary notion of me lecturing funny too. So if you making things up about what I said is amussing to you, thats fine, but I would appreciate it if you kept these thoughts to yourself, that way other people may not start thinking untruths about me.

Anyway, if you have some fundamental beef with me, why not PM me rather than all this cloggin up threads where people might actually like to read some coherant arguments and opinions?

Peace

Dragan

Millionaire wrote:

Seriously, someone on here posted that some english cage fighter, had the guts ripped out of him with a knife attack after some page 3 bimbos party in london a few months back. Maybe if he trained some knife defence, he might not have got fatally stabbed??? its a point to consider seriously.

That was in fact Lee Murray, who was stabbed in the heart and it was not in fact fatal. Lee , as far as i am aware from various media reports and interviews with the man himself, went to the defence of some friends outside the club. During the incident Lee thought he had been punched in the chest, but when he looked down he could see a huge amount of blood.

He then staggered down the road where two girls tried to help him.

With or without the influence of alchohol the instincts and awareness of a professional fighter would be second to none, so if Lee did not pick up on someone in the brawl having a knife then it is unlikely that most people would, it would also seem that Lee had very little opportuinity to counter, dodge or even be aware of the blow that delievered the knife would, so i would doubt that any knife defence would save someone in Lee's situation.

Lee is now back in training and is hitting it hard. As he offically at least twice i believe while receving the medical attention needed to bring him back i suppose you could be right in your "fatal" description however. Lucky for Lee it was temporary.

Dave Joyce

Wow, Planet Fianna is a great place to be, where all logical discussion can be avoided by clouding debate with waffling and non addressing of points. Its amazing Fianna my boy that you actually accuse me of not addressing points and when I do, you go off on a tangent and bring in all kinds of irrelevant points. However, I do not tire of debate, that is what this discussion forum is here for, as I recall you (and others) saying to posters in the past.

Okay Dave, here's a question, when did I voice the opinion that a/ you are a lowly educated working class slob, and b/ I have a superior third level education. I don't remeber saying anything like that. I'd love to see you quote me on the above, if you cant provide such a quote, maybe an apology would be in order? But I dont epect one.

Once again, when did I try and insult you? If I wanted to insult you I wouldnt bother writing replies to your posts. I just say something stupid. As for you finding these imaginary insults amusing, thats great, I was pleased that you found the imaginary notion of me lecturing funny too. So if you making things up about what I said is amussing to you, thats fine, but I would appreciate it if you kept these thoughts to yourself, that way other people may not start thinking untruths about me.

Right so here you go,

If you see a conflict there you have either grammer or logic issues.

and also,

Now since I thought your tone was quite personal I'll reply as such. Dave given your grasp of english and logic I can see you are lacking in those fields. Statistics show that people who have poor literacy skills are far more likely ot be involved in a physical assault. Similarly, just anicdotal eveidence would suggest that taking someone completely wrong might add to your likely hood of being in fights. So there are at least 2 ways you can improve your "Reality" Based Self Defence. I too am aware of my terrible spelling so I am taking steps to improve that, to avoid further street fights.

Wow, Dave that twice now you didnt understand that realy simple point. Me saying STAB is great and not training it is like you doing one BJJ seminar, never training it again and saying "BJJ is great". You see my point is, I dont have to train STAB for it to be great, it is a separate entite to me. Likewise, you dont have to train BJJ to know it is great. I really hope you can understand that now?

Do me a favour and see where I have called the STAB programme into question, my point (which you continually avoid, of course) is that you offer your expertise in comments about KNIFEWORK, although you don't train it and I offered the comparsion that if I did ONE seminar in BJJ and THEN offered to advice you on your groundgame, how would you feel???

There is so much (I wont say wrong) that I fundamentally disagree with in that statement. I have no problem with SEALS being compared to NAZIs only instead of the term "compared" I would say "likened", and he Heidigger is one of the greatest minds ever and he was a NAZI, the MAchados being excelent at BJJ doesnt mean I will sudenly think, "wow, the Machodos, political role models." Once again I hope this illustrates: The Machodos dont have to be SEALS to say the training is excelent, they can simply say it.

Once again you are clouding the issue, you made the point

1; Hopefully makes you think because I genuinely think that someone who aligns themselves with SEALS is at least one of many bad things.

and I simply asked, do you view the Machados and others in this same light, I mean its a very easy to answer the question, and of course you go on rambling about politics, not a simple yes or no. The only reason I even mentioned the SEALS was in reply to another poster, not to get into the politics of the situation but I suppose this suits your arguement.

Firstly, I wasnt name droping, you pulled the notion of me lecturing you out of the air

, well then why mention the good Dr's name, to simply show my ignorance of not knowing who he is? You still haven't answered my question about, what exactly did you mean by your ethics comment!!!

Anyway, if you have some fundamental beef with me, why not PM me rather than all this cloggin up threads where people might actually like to read some coherant arguments and opinions?

For someone so opinionated, why do you not want to discuss this in the public FORUM, I mean is this not what the discussion board is actually for??? Maybe you think its clogging up the thread (I don't) and if you stuck to the point and not waffled about non related topics, then maybe it wouldn't seem so clogged, dear boy!!

Roper

Dave, your link in your sig isn't working.
Just FYI.

Also, keep up the good work lads this is as busy as this forum has been since the days of Dim Mak!

Dave Joyce

Roper, my friend, you're a gent. Just got it sorted. I just slagged off Gerry (Millionaire) about getting too many punches to the head in Thailand and just realised I can't spell academy. Frigg it, mocking is catching!!

Also forgot to add to the Lee Murray piece. Before I'm accussed of dissing the man, I think Lee Murray is a great fighter, and I thought he looked great against Jorge Rivera, BUT once again while he is a devasting fighter in the ring/cage, the MINDSET for the street is whats different, (and John Kavanagh agreed with me on this point on a recent thread) and the guys I train with continually point out to people that a guy carrying a knife is not always gonna show you the blade and therefore you gotta train like as if he was armed if you HAVE TO FIGHT. One of the lads I currently train was stabbed on the door one night in Limerick and he said it just felt like he'ed gotten punched fairly hard and didn't know he'ed been stabbed until the head doorman saw the blood. It turned out not only had he received a nasty stab wound but it had punctured his lung also. Apparently, getting stabbed without knowing it, feels just like been punched hard.

Its seems on reflection that a few people have intimated on occasion (not just in this thread) that MAYBE I'm slow to walk away from fights but I've actually been in what I regard as VERY FEW streetfights in my lifetime and have actually avoided/walked away from more!

Dragan

Dave Joyce wrote:

and the guys I train with continually point out to people that a guy carrying a knife is not always gonna show you the blade and therefore you gotta train like as if he was armed if you HAVE TO FIGHT.

The first part of that is my point exactly, to the second part i will simply say that why should someone who trains for a sport have to train for knife defence?

Baggio...

In response to the article:

No, street fighting is not safe.... It's pretty obvious. No matter what form of M.A. you train in, or how many Dans you have. Yes, we should not get involved in any form of scuffle. However sometimes you have no choice, and you may have to protect your life or that of a loved one.

1.Awareness.
2.Avoid and escape.
3.Protect your Space (using a fence)
4.Talk it Down.
5.Then attack (if you have NO OTHER choice).
6.Get the hell away.

Just my take,

Baggio.

Michael O Leary

Hi Dave and Fianna,

As far as I know the Doctor in question is a psycologist and a university professor who I believe lectures in ethics. If it is the same Stephen Costello then he is also a family friend and avid martial artist who practises Escrima together with his Wing Tsun and has no ethical problem with both arts being self-defense based.

Hope this helps.

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Dave Joyce

Hey Baggio, gotta agree with that post 100%.

Dragan, there is no reason for someone training in/for a sport to do knife defence, but I would put it to you if I lacked any knowledge/ability in the clinch or on the ground AND THEN started to describe to you how you should go about fighting in a MMA event, I would expect to be rideculed (and rightly so), as there is a serious part of my fighting ability missing, particularly when I'm talking to seasoned MMA fighters. However, seeing as we're talking street fights here I think its a bit much for sports compeditors to be lecturing some of the RBSD guys here about how they should/should not train, or offering their expert advice on subjects which most guys DON'T EVEN TRAIN!!

I disagree with you when you say this Dave...

but I would put it to you if I lacked any knowledge/ability in the clinch or on the ground AND THEN started to describe to you how you should go about fighting in a MMA event, I would expect to be rideculed (and rightly so),

I think anyone has a right to challenge anything. They shouldnt have to pre-qualify to be allowed to discuss something. If what theyre saying makes sense then it should stand without the need for them to have the skills themselves. Example: I can say that Royce Gracies standup is relatively bad even though his is relatively better than mine.

Therefore I think its the statement that should be challenged not the stater.

Dragan

Dave Joyce wrote:

Dragan, there is no reason for someone training in/for a sport to do knife defence,

Cool , thats all i was asking, it's just that by the way you phrased you post i thought you were saying the Lee should have included knife defense in his training.

Dave Joyce wrote:

but I would put it to you if I lacked any knowledge/ability in the clinch or on the ground AND THEN started to describe to you how you should go about fighting in a MMA event, I would expect to be rideculed (and rightly so), as there is a serious part of my fighting ability missing, particularly when I'm talking to seasoned MMA fighters. However, seeing as we're talking street fights here I think its a bit much for sports compeditors to be lecturing some of the RBSD guys here about how they should/should not train, or offering their expert advice on subjects which most guys DON'T EVEN TRAIN!!

Not entirely sure where you are going with this, or why you want to put it to me in the first place as if you read back through my post you will see that i have done some self defence and knife work recently, enjoyed it and saw the value and have consistenly put across the argument on this board that people can pretty much train in whatever they want and have the right to do so without having to defend themselves over why. ( this includes the people who knock MMA knowing little about it, TMA knowing little about it , or self defence by making assumptions about it's practitioners. )

All in all, your preacher to the wrong person dude, i just asked a simple question and thanks for answering me.

Dave Joyce

Cool , thats all i was asking, it's just that by the way you phrased you post i thought you were saying the Lee should have included knife defense in his training.

Not if he doesn't want to, but my point was just because he a great fighter in the cage (and a big lad to boot!) doesn't mean he'll find it easy during an encounter on the street, particularly when the guy(s) could be armed. Believe it or not, I would agree with MMA guys that you need to be well schooled in the 3 areas to be able to fight (generally), but you also need to include other areas if that is to translate to the street.

All in all, your preacher to the wrong person dude, i just asked a simple question and thanks for answering me.

Hey Dragan I didn't mean you personally, but in the general sense and was just trying to clarify my position.

I think anyone has a right to challenge anything. They shouldnt have to pre-qualify to be allowed to discuss something. If what theyre saying makes sense then it should stand without the need for them to have the skills themselves. Example: I can say that Royce Gracies standup is relatively bad even though his is relatively better than mine.

Ah Jaysus Colm, I don't know if its deliberately mis construing what I meant, but that is WAY OFF the mark!! I totally agree with you that its good to question (not necesscarily challenge which I think is very confrontational) and I encourage my students to question things in training continually but my point and I put it to you, if I was very lacking in groundwork or clinch and then proceeded to lecture YOU on how you should fight in an MMA event, would you not find that I'd have a nerve when part of my game is so lacking?? When some guys on this very forum have espoused what they would do as strikers (only) in a MMA event, they have been corrected and rightly so by MMAers here, that lacking any groundgame would leave them very exposed in a MMA fight.

Michael O Leary

Hi Fianna,

I bumped into "Dr. Stephen Costello" this evening and while he is absolutely delighted that his name was put forward to make a point in a forum debate he can't remember who you are. I said that your name was Pearse Stokes but all he could say was that it sounded familar.

Hi Colomuk,

You must have made more of an impression on him as he well remembers you from UCD Aikido and was pleased to hear that you passed on your regards. He told me to say hello.

Sorry everyone for dragging this old thread up.

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Michael O Leary

judomick wrote:

if someone says i train self defence/martial arts for self preservation i say their full of ****

SorGan

Michael O Leary wrote:

:rolleyes:

judomick

its a pity Michael, you have obviously missed the whole point, again where have i made a derogatory comment towards RBSD?