My new article

ninjawitatitude

Hey Mick,

judomick wrote:

also i see no-one has answered ultimately why they train? is there an answer there that upsets people? you guys dont want to enjoy it?

I think a most people train cause they enjoy it, but at least as much, if not more, than the training, I think they enjoy the ability to defend one self and the resulting confidence that arises knowing one can protect one's family and friends should the need arise. The end justifies the means, sort of thing. For example, not many of us look forward to a four mile, pre dawn run in the weather at the moment, but we all enjoy the fitness that results from our efforts.

Im sure as a doorman you have more than just competition in mind when learning a new move.

Gambatte

ninjawitatitude

Colm_OReilly wrote:

You know what, I started writing a reply but just couldn't be bothered.

Wow. Snappy comeback.

silat liam

[
I take your points. But the thread that spawned this thread was started by someone to get a reaction out of grapplers. You can't say he's not getting what he wanted![/QUOTE]

Hi Roper
As the person who spawned this thread I knoiw the reason why I started this thread. Was it get a reaction out of Grapplers? maybe it did, but that not what the thread was about. It was a very simple message to offer a different view point on realities of grappling with a knife attacker. At least the thread got people writing and expressing there view instead of just talking about the next UFC dvd. I know that knife defence is a sore point with a number of martial artist out there, some believe they need to learn it, to offer a more complete package, others are happy never to entertain the notion of knife defence. For a long time now traditional martial arts and in some case RBSD styles have been at the buck end of wise cracks from some MMA guys. Each set of Martial Arts have something to offer the general public. Going by the private messages and phone calls of support I got for this thread (which I thank all for) maybe we should all be proud of what we do. There plenty of choice in the Irish and European market and the public are not so easily fool. People choose the martial art they want to do, if they dont like what that teachers has to offer they go elsewhere. Hopefully now more TMA guys can come onto this forum and talk about their styles and not be hounded off.

Liam,

Hi Colum
How many of the MMA guys actually teach Internal and mental training, using meditation and other forms to help focus, de stress and bring direction to the mind for the every day world. I was under the impression this was made fun off by the majority of MMA guy (Maybe I wrong in this thinking)I dont know what you teach, but I def dont talk about Financial Health what Martial arts teacher would you go to, to talk about investments and mortages. People dont ask this of a Martial Arts teacher they go to class to learn a martial art. I think this thread has kinda run out of steam and has move to other directions.

Ok it seems that you have inherently misunderstood absolutely in every way possible the point i was trying to make. Maybe slowing down and reading my posts might help you answer them with a modicum of sense and context. Anyway to reiterate.

The point that I was making, the very same point made by several on this thread, is that if self defence, which I construe as being the same as survival and self preservation, is your main reason for training then there are many many greater priorities and enemies to deal with that are much more likely statistically to be the end of you. I was putting a big list of physical, mental, financial and social health priorities that I feel are amongst the many necessities of life that outweigh in a normal citizens world, the need for hand to hand combat skills on the street.

So to reiterate if Self Defence is your primary concern then you'd be much better off learning a language and maybe how to swim than putting 8 hours a week in knife drills. Similarily doing a life drawing class is more likely to contribute to a full healthy life than learning how to gouge someones testicles via their eyesockets...

So MY MMA training doesnt teach life drawing skills, french, spanish or 100m freestyle. Its a sport that I do for fun. If self defence was an issue for me I'd run more, eat less salt, skip the kebabs, bin the pints and generally live a healthier life. I dont care about self defence. Really dont care. I try and do right by people. Anyone who knows me, in the real world, knows I'm affable and happy go lucky (somewhat jerkish admittedly ), but generally I dont get in rows with people and my current attitude is a bit of the old water off a duck's back. I used to train and work near your school Liam and I never noticed any knife brandishers. Seemed like a nice suburban area. Again been in worse areas, worked in worse areas but feel that if you respect people and aren't stuck up your own arse you can generally have a nice day without people bothering you.

Now about your place of work and people coming in looking for trouble. I used to work in the Texaco at the Spawell roundabout. All kinds of trouble coming in and out and yet I never once found myself in jeopardy... My philosophy- "the guy has a knife and is asking for something. If he wanted to stab you, you'd be bleeding on the ground. But he hasnt so give the guy what he wants and move on".

For a long time now traditional martial arts and in some case RBSD styles have been at the buck end of wise cracks from some MMA guys.

Yeah like those "glorified strong man competitions" eh Liam? Hardly balanced and respectful. Reap what you sow mate...

Of course none of use glorified strong men have any idea of traditional martial arts. Sure most of us started with MMA and just made assumptions from day one. :rolleyes:

Dave,

How often do I train STAB? I dont. I have no interest in knife defence. I'd rather have a lie in or watch a movie. That isnt to say I dont believe the system works but... for me to be interested in a knife defence course wouldnt really tie in with my other self-preservation behaviour as in eating too much salt, aspertame, processed foods etc.

Michael,

all it can take is one bad incident to ruin it all.

Yeah but devoting less time to those things and more time on street skillz increases the likelihood of an already statistically more likely thing heart attack/depression bout/midlife crisis happening. That other stuff is much more likely to get you mate so use that 80/20 rule (or is it 90/10) that you're always talking about. Focus on mitigating what is likely to happen rather than ignoring that for what you're scared of happening.

Granted statictically the chance may be small however the same could be said for wearing seatbelts, I don't want to be that 0.5%.

Yeah but do you spend 10 hours a week practising putting on a seat belt right? Cause again thats more likely to be the end of you rather than a knife wielding bad guy...

One who trains in the hope that he will never have to use his skills and the other who trains so that in six months time he will elbow someone in face in a competition. Which is the most sinister?

Just because you train in a competitive sport doesnt mean you compete mate. Only the few compete in most grappling, muay thai and MMA clubs (judo aside). So some train for fun and arent willing to hurt people in a ring.


Anyway thanks to all the contributors. Keep it coming.

Colum

StrateBlastJim

I just started back training for the first time in about 6 months and man does time fly i didnt think it had been so long. Anyway with that i thought i would chime back on here too.

Liam wrote:

Hi Colum
How many of the MMA guys actually teach Internal and mental training, using meditation and other forms to help focus, de stress and bring direction to the mind for the every day world.

It has not been taught in any of the bjj/submission wrestling classes i have been to. However i feel the act of sparring itself is de stressing and helps both physical and mental training as often a sparr in bjj can be as technical as a chess match (not with with columok though ). I find that while rolling (sparring) i am not thinking of what i must do when i get home/tomorrow/my families health etc. i am lost in the match and i really enjoyed the de stressing feelings again tonight when i started back .

Liam wrote:

I was under the impression this was made fun off by the majority of MMA guy (Maybe I wrong in this thinking).

Personally i feel there is nothing wrong with meditation and to the best of my knowledge neither do the other bjj practioners i know. i do make jokes about chi etc but i do that anyway being a scientist. I want proof damn you:mad:.

Michael O Leary wrote:

However now it seems that when we question the validity of grappling in a street fight your now saying we don't train for the street and anyone who does is unbalanced. The goalposts seem to be shifting.

I personally dont agree with RBSD as i believe it to inspire fear.
I worry about people who train specifically for the time when they must defend themselves family or friends against a knife. I think we all agree the chance of being faced with a knife is slim but i believe that in most cases injury can be avoided by compliance (ie give up your wallet etc.) So the chance of being confronted with a knife by someone who intends to inflict harm must be even less.

That said i know many women worry about rape and if a knife is involved it becomes even worse. i would like to know what RBSD people teach women about defending themselves against a knife weilding rapest?

On the validity of grappling on the street.

Firstly:Why do people assume mma people want to grapple attackers on the street should it occur?

Secondly: Im 5 foot 5, small muscle mass growing belly and my only training is BJJ, not mma, and i have used grappling to defend against multiple attackers trying to steal my phone on the "street" (just off graffton street actually) without going to the ground.

Does that prove grappling works on the street, maybe not, but i will say this if i could go back i realise now that i should and could have walked away, it was only a phone after all.

I know the limits of grappling in a "street" situation, but im glad i know that should i slip and a 20 stone guy get on top of me to pound the heck out of me i know how to get back up and run, and as i have heard someone say in the past the technique doesnt change if his mate is kicking you in the head it just sucks more.

Dragan

Michael O Leary wrote:

Hi Dragan,

I wish I had your life

If your happy then you already do bro.

judomick

Dave Joyce wrote:

Thats not accurate for a start, as Liam and Michael have both answered! Are you suggesting anyone in particular?

if someone says i train self defence/martial arts for self preservation i
say their full of ****

And I think that statement is a crock, as its one of the main reasons A LOT of people take up MARTIAL arts!, I was also a coward which I hated and thought MA would help me overcome this, which it has. Now I totally enjoy my training, but still train for self protection reasons, I have also noticed you and others have failed to answer the questions I posed.

What a friggin crass statement! Wow, some of you guys must have your lives planned out really well and already know, family/mid life won't be affecting you or your MMA training.....well that is if you're still training MMA when you're in mid-life.

they have not answered honestly imo dave you have said you enjoy your training thats awesome , would you still train if you hated it? i doubt it so then why do you train? because you enjoy it!

re-read my post i said the reason for people takin up marrtial arts may differ, why they continue is because they enjoy it not too difficult a concept

liam and michael have both said they train for self defence ok but what will that do for them?


Padraig good points i guess binge eating is a problem, but these people need help, some people still just eat too much!

Dragan

judomick wrote:

liam and michael have both said they train for self defence ok but what will that do for them?

Yeah , but from having trained with him i also know that Liam trains out of pure enjoyment for what he does and what he can learn.

People seem to really have either the wrong impression of Liam, or of all people who would teach or train anything along the lines of "self defence". The way i see it is that i don't train "self defence" with Liam, i'm learning Silat.

Now, this is where it gets interesting. When we come to the parts of the art that might be useful in any "on the street" situation Liam will point those out to us, and will often expand on such things are dealing with attacks from behind, the best way to deal with a bullrush etc etc. The classes are all a good laugh and you can learn a lot about the ART OF SILAT, which is why i go.

Liam has always come across as a really nice and down to earth guy. He's not trying to give a false sense of security to anyone in my class. Anytime we have broached the subject of knife attacks or ANY weapon based assault the first line is always "if there is an avenue of escape, then take it".

To have people saying that Silat/Self Defence is the refuge of the paranoid delusionals or those who wish to pray on there fears is simply offensive.

It's right up there with someone saying that people who do TMA are simply trying to immerse themselves in a failed honours systems because they can't deal with current society, or that guys who do MMA are simply confused about there sexual orientation and looking for a way to rub up on another man.

Both of the above are highly inaccurate, offensive statements, and i'm sure that if i just posted them and them alone that there would be a lot of backlash on the board, hopefully you can all see what i am getting at.

Obviously i don't agree with either, they were just made for comparison purposes.

Having gotten involved in Martial Arts at the age of 11 only one thing has been constant about the scene. The stout refusal of a lot of people to stop acting like a pack of kids and get on with what they want to do, leaving other people alone.

Roper

silat liam wrote:

[
It was a very simple message to offer a different view point on realities of grappling with a knife attacker. At least the thread got people writing and expressing there view instead of just talking about the next UFC dvd.

I don't think that there was anyone on here who didn't know that there were differing view points. Pretty much everybody knows there's a slight danger of a knife attack, even MMA guys. It's just that most of them don't bother themselves worrying about it. The chances are that remote.

Now you might say well hey, I don't want to be that remote chance guy. More power to you, but as mentioned above there are a 100 things you should probably take care of first if you're genuine about wanting to stay alive.

I didn't mind his 20 rant on Wing Tsun/Wing Chun & Silat being crap however he actually did basically say, (and I can't remember his exact words), that if you train for self-defence then you are better off seeing a therapist as you have emotional problems. This for me is silly but then he is an American with a product to sell. You are also more diplomatic than Judo Mick who feels we SD people are full of ****.

Michael, you can say his name you know! It's funny how people interpret things, I didn't take this message from that 'rant' at all. What I got was that people who claim to train for self defence but ultimately do not look after their bodies are not genuine because they neglect the "far more likely's" of heart disease, etc.

And I certainly think you've misinterpreted JudoMick. You are full of **** if you follow that introspective thought process and still come up with the answer "I train for self defence". After that, ask yourself, "and if I achieve my goal of being able to defend myself against anyone, where will that get me?" What next?

judomick

Michael some good points,

i spar hard as in rolling during training so im fighting guys who know what im trying to do and are resisting, this ultimately lets me know my limitations, so in any street situation i usually have a pretty good notion of what my course of action should be, i work a door in the city in the scores of people i have physically ejected ive onll ever took 2 guys to the ground, my reasons were they were alone so there was no risk, if they had 3 mates would i take them down ? hell no thats silly

Liam you started a thread saying is grappling safe on the street? i could come up with thousands of scenarios some grappling would be safe others it wouldnt, im sure its the same with silat tbh, i dont know much about knife fighting but when it comes to grappling i know a little and the techniques i saw at the silat seminar if used in the street would mean a very bad beatdown for the practitioner thats my honest opinion. knife fighting thats your game but i dont carry one and im a humble guy when it come to confrontations if im not workin fights dont come my way for some reason

Roper

Dragan wrote:

or that guys who do MMA are simply confused about there sexual orientation and looking for a way to rub up on another man.

Uh. I'll just leave now cos that statement um.... offended me... or something









How did he know?

judomick

Dragan i think alot of people have missed my point
when i ask someone why they train and they say for the street they are ultimately lying, the reason everyone continues to train is because its fun and they enjoy it, my point is that if some one doesnt enjoy training but only trains abc kung fu for eye gouges no other reason then they are a little unstable! im not sure how some can argue this point?

i train for fun , i love to compete i teach a few classes too i love to impart my knowledge to others, i know one on one there are few people that could beat me in a fight this gives me confidence and humility in street situations which ultimately makes me happy

this all im sayin on the matter im goin out to check all these gorgeous swedish girls:eek:

Dragan

judomick wrote:

this all im sayin on the matter im goin out to check all these gorgeous swedish girls:eek:

lol ya lucky bastard !!!

Michael O Leary

Hi Roper and Scramble,

You have both suggested that I misinterpreted the point made at the seminar however there was not much room for misinterpretation. While Matt did say "initially" that if someone does not look after their health but focuses on SD then they are not sincere or genuine then this was further expanded on to say that due to the low level of violence in Ireland that if you do train for SD then there is something wrong with you mentally even if you do look after your health. So rather than misinterpretating him I am paraphrasing what he directly said. However I am able to separate what I feel to be silly points like these from some of the good stuff that he was teaching.

There are two main approaches you can take to attending a seminar like this. You can go away and feeling everything that you have done so far is of no use and immediately want to convert or you can leave and dismiss everything in the previous four hours. I try and do neither but critically analyse what was said, add it to my experience and maybe pursue some of the points further.

Hi Colum,

Granted that not all MMA practitioners compete but those that do and include stomps to the head etc, do you think there is something sinister? If you compare it to someone who trains in the hope that they never have to use their (knife) skills then the former would appear more sinister. But the whole thing is subjective and we could read sinister intentions in anything. It all depends on where we are coming from. It is in our vested interests to read sinister or sad intentions in each others motivations for training. Yes it can make debate more interesting but we seem to going around and around with this.

Hi JudoMick

Yes I have fun practising and teaching Wing Tsun and Escrima. There is also the sense of achievement in seeing my skills increase bit by bit over the years and both arts represented a huge challange initially and currently. However the underlying goal in martial arts for me is self-defence.

Just because your paranoid it doesn't mean they are not all out to get you:D

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

schmooFlan

judomick wrote:

Liam you started a thread saying is grappling safe on the street? i could come up with thousands of scenarios some grappling would be safe others it wouldnt, im sure its the same with silat tbh, i dont know much about knife fighting but when it comes to grappling i know a little and the techniques i saw at the silat seminar if used in the street would mean a very bad beatdown for the practitioner thats my honest opinion.

Ignoring all the self defence type issues for the moment, I don't understand ( and I mean that literally, i'm not trying to argue anything here, just trying to learn something ) how grappling would be useless against a knife?

If someone had a knife, I'd imagine two grappling type ideas would be useful against it :
a) grabbing and controlling their arm, to restrict its movement towards you,
pulling them off balance with it, leading them around by it or even trying
to throw them whilst controlling the arm, so that you would prevent them from thrusting their arm towards you or transferring the knife to their other hand. I can see you might get cut whilst getting a grip like this, but I guess it's better to be cut once than stabbed lots?

b) getting them in a bear-hug type hold, preferrably from behind, where their arms are pinned to their sides, preventing them from pulling a knife.

Obviously, those are just generic ideas, and each individual situation would be different, but, in theory, are those two ideas rubbish against knives?

silat liam

judomick wrote:

Michael some good points,



Liam you started a thread saying is grappling safe on the street? i could come up with thousands of scenarios some grappling would be safe others it wouldnt, im sure its the same with silat tbh, i dont know much about knife fighting but when it comes to grappling i know a little and the techniques i saw at the silat seminar if used in the street would mean a very bad beatdown for the practitioner thats my honest opinion. knife fighting thats your game but i dont carry one and im a humble guy when it come to confrontations if im not workin fights dont come my way for some reason

Mick
Thats the point of the thread why not discuss some of the thousands of scenarios that would work and not work, instead of just talking about eating disorders.

I'm sorry you thought the techniques at the seminar wouldnt work. I wish you would have said something at the seminar instead of now on a internet forum. I respect your views, however you do have to understand that the frist time I met you guys at the seminar you were walking accross the hall to informed me "You wouldnt be albe to train full out as you were carring injuries"
never once during the seminar did you say anything. I do remenber a number of the students trying to help you, and also you walking out when the groundwork section was over and not experience the other areas of the art is a very selective way to view another art form. Silat by it nature is a complete package, seperating it and breaking it down into seperate compartments destroys the art and changes it into something else.

I glad you fully understand the limitation of your training and know when your system works and not. That hopefully is the same with all us teachers. But in small limited experience this is not alwayes the case with students of MMA here is an example.

@ going to sue you" This is typical of experience that me, my students and other Martial Arts Instructor have all seen, read and heard about over the last few years about MMA guys. If this thread stops one person from thinking he untouchable and walking in to a fight, not realising what the situation could turn in to, than its all being worthwhile

Ive taught a number of seminars where MMA guys try to hold on to me saying they could handle a cut or a stab. In my experience a large percentage of these guys dont respect what a blade can do or what the street is like. If you saying you dont teach this and dont believe that knife or any kind of wearpon or multiple attack situations are part of your training thats cool. But then why do so many MMA guys rave about them being the ultimate art and all other arts should be judge against them. If its a sport thans its a sport. Silat is different its a way of life. It like comparing football to Golf, both are ball sports but are very different and cant really be comparred.

Mick I was wondering why do many of MMA / SBG Tattoo themselves with the marking of their gym. Or walking around shopping centers, I even seen them in Pubs late on a Saturday night with flashes MMAt shirts (which I know advertise the classes)Do you not think this a dangerous thing to do, as when you in the real world you setting your self up as a target for any stupid idiot on the street. Is this not the opposite of self defence where you going around making yourself a target.A friend of mines was telling he thinking of getting A sbg tattoo done as he said he seen senior guys with them and was wondering if they were copywrite. I tried to explain to him that maybe this wasnt the wisest thing to do, but the trouble with young adults is that they are inspired by their elders who they look up.

judomick

liam,

in no did i intend to offend your "art" i merely said from my point of view i.e grappling the few techniques i saw wouldnt work for example i held one of your guys in side control i asked him what a silat escape would be and he grabbed a handful of flesh from my torso and squeezed, it was uncomfortable but bearable he looked at me as if i should be cowering in pain well i wasnt, had i started to land elbows eye gouges it wouldnt have been to pleasant for him, there was a couple of other situations like this, im not going to rant on here

just to clarify another couple of points John was carrying an injury i was in perfect health, the reason for us leavin was basically the techniques i saw were not workable when either of us resisted each other i thought them a little ludicrous and askede john could we go, didnt want to offend your art.

and we did the shock and shatter piece of the seminar with the snake stance
so we didnt just stay for the grappling portion

the rest f your post to me is just silly people have free will for me jiu jitsu is a way of life, i wear t shirts hoodies and have never been in a fight outside of work why? who knows?

theres only one sbg guy i know with a sbg tattoo

as for the rest of your points if i knew this mma guy id kick his ass myself thats no way to conduct yourself, i

just as a matter of interest ive searched the web for clips of silat in action but have as of yet failed to find any that show silat in a real life situation, i have found however clips of demonstrations whereby the attackers are fully compliant, if you could point me in the right direction id be grateful, theres tons of clips out there whereby you can see bjj vale tudo judo greco roman wrestling work against street situations

i read this article this morning in my search and tthought it quite interesting might be a good read for you http://dogbrothers.com/article_info.php?articles_id=31&osCsid=6c5970927480c16fab9b48accda43fc2

judomick

why do so many guys rant about how there sport is the ultimate art? im a bjj guy but id guess its because they have not been proved wrong


it would be good if you could attend the next boards meet and exchange some ideas?

fianna.5u.com

Nice post Judo Mick! You are correct. Maybe we'll see the snake dance at your next fight?

Peace

Tim_Murphy

Michael,

Regards all, (even Tim )

What did I do?

Regarding why I personally do martial arts, I do it both to practise my self-defense skills and also to teach it to others. What would happen if I no longer enjoyed it? That happened to me in 2000 and I gave all martial arts up for one year, changed organisations and haven't look back since.

This would imply that you don’t train solely for SD, but because you enjoy your training.

One who trains in the hope that he will never have to use his skills and the other who trains so that in six months time he will elbow someone in face in a competition

For some stupid reason they won’t let us elbow people in the face in Irish MMA!

I personally feel that you MMA guys have enjoyed riding high on the crest of a wave for the past few years and fair play to you. You deserve it. The whole "Raison d'etre" of MMA was to find the best way to fight and yous have done pretty well.

It’s not a case of ‘ours’, people simply train a certain way and eventually everyone will be doing similar stuff. Most of the ‘MMA guys’ on here come from a variety of different backgrounds (TKD personally). I don’t like the idea of everyone simply being lumped together as ‘MMA guys’ as we will all have different perspectives, different backgrounds, and one person does not speak for all.

However now it seems that when we question the validity of grappling in a street fight your now saying we don't train for the street and anyone who does is unbalanced.

I wouldn’t personally say they were unbalanced. At the same time I personally don’t see the point of training for SD but if others do then that’s there business. I did the STAB course well over a year ago and I train it once since then for about 15 mins. I just don’t see the point of doing it (as someone who has lived in ‘stab city’ for 5 years)

Also, I don’t think at any point was Matt ranting during the seminar. That’s not the impression I got anyway. Sounded to me like he was giving a blunt honest opinion on something. I respect the fact that he does that (without necessarily agreeing with everything he might have to say) because there are plenty of MA people out there who won’t. I could be wrong but I got the impression that he would have had no problem debating any points he made with anyone who might object to what he was saying. This is also very different from some other seminars I’ve gone to myself.

silat liam

judomick wrote:

liam,


just as a matter of interest ive searched the web for clips of silat in action but have as of yet failed to find any that show silat in a real life situation, i have found however clips of demonstrations whereby the attackers are fully compliant, if you could point me in the right direction id be grateful, theres tons of clips out there whereby you can see bjj vale tudo judo greco roman wrestling work against street situations

i read this article this morning in my search and tthought it quite interesting might be a good read for you http://dogbrothers.com/article_info.php?articles_id=31&osCsid=6c5970927480c16fab9b48accda43fc2

Hi Judomick
I'm not sure what you mean by clips of silat in real life situation? Do you mean someone filming a silat guy fighting in the street? Or is it more to do with 2 silat guys going hell for leather with each other? The former would be very hard, but I could point you in one direction not sure if he has any clips, but one of the teacher I train in the past with Richard de Bordes has I believe many dealing with combative warfare as he is I think a General in the Army and his specialise unit he personally trained is called the "Exterminate and Cleanse Unit" and they deal with political, urban and warfare issue in different countries. These guys are on the front line and they would be albe to explain to you, what they believe works or not. I dont have the exact web address but Im sure you can find it.

If the latter you on about, then thats harder to find. I have some video clips at home, but thats no good for a public forum. Mick there a couple of things thing that you need to understand about Silat. Firstly Its a minority art we dont have the appeal, money, time or people to promote the way other arts do. As far as I know Im the only one in Ireland who really promotes and teach traditional Silat. Over the years I ahve develop a number of students who now teach, but we will alwayes be a minority art, therefore there isnt as much material about. Secondary no two styles of silat are the same there are vast difference and very few silat styles really work together. At this moment in time there is a very big push to take silat away as a Combat Driven martial arts and turn it into a religion and a point sport artform. (I have seen the sports side and its horrific and average thai boxer would creame most of them) on the other side we get JKD' guys who do take some of the techniques of silat and describe it as a add on art, but at least they can elements of it to work. In my honest view I would say only 5% of silat styles now work in combat, so its a very small group. The third point is that silat an Internal art which has physical movements, students are taught to be humble, not to brag, not to invoke violence or show off your art, which is great but meansthat we have very little press. This is probley why you see little info about silat. Out style is A Cimande style. When students advance they must do the art at full speed and power and against a resistant attacker. It is the focus of our style to develop a students so if the time needed he can defend himself. I have taught a number of secruity agencies, I now being asked to teach to a army group knife and counter knife training.I dont teach behind closed doors. Im a public teacher and just doing my bit in promoting an art form which I love very much and has much to offer people. We dont do and never will do compete in contest but this is something I tell every one. Anyone who wants to is more than willing to join one of your classes. I dont close the door on them. I teach a traditional path in a art form which is a way of life. I know some people dont understand this or respect this, but this is the path of my teaching and any of my students would back me up on this.

At the end of the day we are only one path to the top of the mountain, what suiots one person wont suit another.. its all cool.... I'm glad this thread has become so popular and its let people know the limitation different arts have which is fine...

Many thanks to all who took part, hopefully we get another good thread going soon.


Liam
www.silateurope.com

Dave Joyce

Here we go again, with cloud up a good simple discussion with none related topics such as health issues etc. These type of issues can be addressed by oneself if they wish to improve their health diet etc, where as someone, wanting to kick your head in (FOR THE ****ING UPMTEENTH TIME) REGARDLESS of your attempts to talk them down, escape or run away is to all extensive purposes out of your control at that particular moment.

they have not answered honestly imo dave you have said you enjoy your training thats awesome , would you still train if you hated it? i doubt it so then why do you train? because you enjoy it!

No! Not only because I enjoy it! Does this mean I cannot enjoy the self defence aspect of my training, particularly when I can see the benefits of it? There are plenty of parts of training I hate (especially when I competed like all the extra and hard training, dieting, injuries etc) but that doesn't mean I'd quit it. This is where once again the mindset for a sport is different to that of RBSD/TMA.

How often do I train STAB? I dont. I have no interest in knife defence. I'd rather have a lie in or watch a movie. That isnt to say I dont believe the system works but... for me to be interested in a knife defence course wouldnt really tie in with my other self-preservation behaviour as in eating too much salt, aspertame, processed foods etc.

I wouldn’t personally say they were unbalanced. At the same time I personally don’t see the point of training for SD but if others do then that’s there business. I did the STAB course well over a year ago and I train it once since then for about 15 mins. I just don’t see the point of doing it (as someone who has lived in ‘stab city’ for 5 years)

Well then what was the point in doing the STAB seminar? I'm finding it really hard to understand your motivation in EVEN attending in the first place if you think its not in your sphere of interest!

It’s not a case of ‘ours’, people simply train a certain way and eventually everyone will be doing similar stuff. Most of the ‘MMA guys’ on here come from a variety of different backgrounds (TKD personally). I don’t like the idea of everyone simply being lumped together as ‘MMA guys’ as we will all have different perspectives, different backgrounds, and one person does not speak for all.

REALLY!!!??? You could have fooled me. Its an amazing co-incidence then that most MMA guys "think" RBSD guys are dellusional and spend all their time "WORRYING" about a possible attack that may never come, constantly work out to a high work ethic with a good diet, AND of course think that "self defence" training is a waste of time, although MMA is the most practical because of ring/cage fights and/or doorwork.

Musashi

I was just browsing some of the RBSD based forums I frequent and noticed that on one of the most" hard core lunatic fringe" ones, a very prolific poster is Paul Sharp. The Paul Sharp of ISR Matrix and "Fist Fire" pistol Instructor.



When's he coming over John? I like their stuff!

fianna.5u.com

I really worry about you SD guys, genuinely.

I even might open a field of study of you guys with some of my psychology colleagues. I mean just by looking at some of the posts we could open the DSM-IV and have a field day.

"Exterminate and Cleanse Unit" = Scum of the earth (and very poorly educated)

If you are in anyway affiliated with this dude you have serious issues, way beyond self defence. Also, the notion that anyone from a NATO country's army is in someway an expert in "Self" defence is gas, if a little shocking, that people could beleive this.

Peace

Roper

Whenever I hear of people nuthugging some of these so called "special forces" types it actually makes me sick. For that read murderers by another name.
Some of the not too widely reported stories coming out of Afghanistan would make any decent individual ill. Self defence to these guys is rounding them up and calling inthe laser guided bomb. I wonder what percentage of these guys have actually seen live hand to hand combat?

Tim_Murphy

Well then what was the point in doing the STAB seminar? I'm finding it really hard to understand your motivation in EVEN attending in the first place if you think its not in your sphere of interest!

I was meant to be going to a TKD competition but something happened and I couldn't go to that so I headed up to galway instead. I did find the seminar interesting, I just wouldn't be motivated to training the stuff regularly.

REALLY!!!??? You could have fooled me. Its an amazing co-incidence then that most MMA guys "think" RBSD guys are dellusional and spend all their time "WORRYING" about a possible attack that may never come, constantly work out to a high work ethic with a good diet, AND of course think that "self defence" training is a waste of time, although MMA is the most practical because of ring/cage fights and/or doorwork.

I can't speak for most people, only myself. At a guess I would say that most MMA people give all this stuff considerably less thought than those who post on here, and just go train in something they enjoy.

Dave Joyce

I was meant to be going to a TKD competition but something happened and I couldn't go to that so I headed up to galway instead. I did find the seminar interesting, I just wouldn't be motivated to training the stuff regularly

You haven't really answered my question there, as in what was the point in doing the seminar if you're not interested in that area of training not WHY did you go, particularly when you probley weren't going to train the stuff regularly anyway!! Why then do a lot of MMA guys get on the defensive when anyone talks knife material and trot out STAB material EVEN THOUGH the vast majority have no interest/don't regularly train the material.

I can't speak for most people, only myself. At a guess I would say that most MMA people give all this stuff considerably less thought than those who post on here, and just go train in something they enjoy

Fair enough but why then do MMA guys find discussions about RBSD unworthy and yet continually re-inforce how practical MMA is, in the street or doorwork context!!

I wonder what percentage of these guys have actually seen live hand to hand combat?

Don't really want to get into the politics of this but I would say very few, as their main weapon is their primary weapon and they don't look to get into hand to hand combat from talking with the SEALS I had the good fortune to train with. Believe me there is a world of S**** happening on BOTH sides which will not see the light of day, in that conflict. Not sure who you're referring to when you say "people nuthugging some of these so called "special forces" types", but a lot of people who claim to teach SEALS etc are far from that field and ARE very dillusional. This contrasts totally with those that actually teach these guys

Tim_Murphy

You haven't really answered my question there, as in what was the point in doing the seminar if you're not interested in that area of training not WHY did you go, particularly when you probley weren't going to train the stuff regularly anyway!!

Well if you are really interested then...
1. I had nothing better to do for the weekend (had originally planned to go to the TKD comp, but that fell through at the last minute) , thought I'd try something different.
2. I was getting ready for a fight (first MMA fight in a ring) and didn't have a huge amount of training partners were I was so I went to galway and got a bit of extra training in after the seminar.

Why then do a lot of MMA guys get on the defensive when anyone talks knife material and trot out STAB material EVEN THOUGH the vast majority have no interest/don't regularly train the material.

I don't know!
I personally don't go on the defensive, I simply don't have any interest in training to defend myself against knives.

fianna.5u.com

STAB is great because its pretty much MMA against a blade. I've done STAB and I never train it. However I'd be light years ahead of my previous self defence self at defending myself against blades.

You have much more to worry about if you consider yourself fortunate to train with SEALS. Thats akin to me saying I'm lucky to have trained with the Taliban, they have Reality Based decapition techniques. Could they apply the decapition techniques in a situation we are likely to be involved in? No, because they operate in an enviornemnt where the whole culture and social structure support the particluar insident of beheading. Likewise, SEALS raping, murdering and commiting other crimes against society "work" in situations where the rest of the culture supports them.

When they return to a society where their actions are not supported they are usually loosers. Even though I despise the actions that make them the scum of the earth, I pity them that their society uses them to its own ends, then forgets about them. I mean look at vietnam and more recently, gulf war vets.

Those poor guys could have done with a good teacher, a nice background, themoney to go to college. All of those things would have defended their selves (and innocent Iraqis "selfs") alot better than all the so called "training" they have since shared with you.

Ethics my man, ethics.

Peace

Dave Joyce

STAB is great because its pretty much MMA against a blade. I've done STAB and I never train it. However I'd be light years ahead of my previous self defence self at defending myself against blades.

You have much more to worry about if you consider yourself fortunate to train with SEALS. Thats akin to me saying I'm lucky to have trained with the Taliban, they have Reality Based decapition techniques. Could they apply the decapition techniques in a situation we are likely to be involved in? No, because they operate in an enviornemnt where the whole culture and social structure support the particluar insident of beheading. Likewise, SEALS raping, murdering and commiting other crimes against society "work" in situations where the rest of the culture supports them.

When they return to a society where their actions are not supported they are usually loosers. Even though I despise the actions that make them the scum of the earth, I pity them that their society uses them to its own ends, then forgets about them. I mean look at vietnam and more recently, gulf war vets.

Those poor guys could have done with a good teacher, a nice background, themoney to go to college. All of those things would have defended their selves (and innocent Iraqis "selfs") alot better than all the so called "training" they have since shared with you.

Ethics my man, ethics.

Peace

Wow, you're some man, you don't even have to train STAB and its still top notch, and even better than your "previous" knife defence, I'm SO impressed. This of course from someone who thinks there no need for all that RBSD "stuff" and no need to learn anything about knives in this country. AND even better, you know so much about SEALS and Taliban, you are sharing YOUR knowledge with us. So, how many of each group have you met or is that just a generalisation about people you've just posted??? And then you want to lecture me on ethics??? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!!!!