[Article] Metro work to begin in April

gobdaw

MarkoP11 wrote:

And DCU is served by the preferred blue alignment

True - my mistake.

Has RPA or DofT put up a map? I have only seen Times and Indo, neither of which seem to be "official"

BendiBus

Metrobest wrote:

This obsession with Glasnevin Junction and integration with the Maynooth line has to end. Right now!

:eek:

Based on the metro map, the distance from the proposed Botanic station to where the Maynooth line passes Prospect Rd is somewhere between 200 and 250m.

Why is this better than having a metro station co-located with a train station? After all the metro will pass under the railway anyway. So the option is there.

And does the Singapore system drop passengers at the airport or at a nearby hotel?

gobdaw

Metrobest wrote:

The metro cannot do everything; it's just one line. But just look what it does do. It integrates with all rail modes, in particular at Stephen's Green, but also possibly at Tara Street. The underground walkways are one of the easiest solutions to put in place; they are common in metro systems the world over. If needed/desired, there can be walkways at Glasnevin and at Tara Street. This obsession with Glasnevin Junction and integration with the Maynooth line has to end. Right now! If you truly believe DART is "metro", then what's the problem with making a change of station en route? For example, Singapore's amazingly efficient MRT systems requires passengers to change once en route from the city centre to the super-modern Chiangi airport. No problem: the connections are easy, the trains frequent. That's what matters more than anything else.

Without Tara Street or Glasnevin there is no one station connection with Maynooth, Kildare, Dundalk or Greystones, but use of Luas or walking would be required. Not great for lugging cases to the airport, but Ryanair might be pleased with people being encouraged to confine themselves to hand luggage! Or we could wait till 2015 for the interconnector for Dundalk and Kildare , tough on Maynooth and Greystones though!

MarkoP11

gobdaw wrote:

True - my mistake.

Has RPA or DofT put up a map? I have only seen Times and Indo, neither of which seem to be "official"

http://www.rpa.ie/upload/documents/Metro%20Line%20News%20Letter%20Feb06.pdf

markf909

Metrobest wrote:

This obsession with Glasnevin Junction and integration with the Maynooth line has to end. Right now!

:rolleyes:

Eh, The metro passes directly underneath the Maynooth Dart line. Are you suggesting that maynooth passengers trundle into Stephens Green and back out on the Metro under the line they came in on?

I dont care so much about what spec the metro is built to, but integration is what makes Public Transit Systems, and the best I have personally used do not rely on one central hub for every connection.

BendiBus

gobdaw wrote:

True - my mistake.

Has RPA or DofT put up a map? I have only seen Times and Indo, neither of which seem to be "official"

RPA map

Transport21 Fan

Can't agree with you Metrobest on Glasnevin Junction. It has the making of a fantastic interchnage.

But the most pressing question in relation to developing a station/interchange at Glasnevin has yet to be asked... WHERE THE HELL IS IE MANAGEMENT IN ALL THIS?

How come some of you can sit there and slag off the RPA for ignoring the junction, but the actual shower who would gain the most in IE management and engineering have neither thought of, shown any interest, nor even considered conducting a basic consultantion on the site which they own being used for an interchange?

Some of you really need to get your heads out of your holes. The RPA owe nothing to developing an interchange behind Des Kelly Carpets. It is Irish Rail who are the culprits here. There are perfectly happy to allow the vast site which they own to be forgotton and they must be pissing themselves laughing at some of you blaming the RPA for something the RPA is not responsible for!

What next the 2900's on the Sligo line is the fault of the RPA!

Now listen to me carefully: Glasnevin Juction belongs to Irish Rail and not the RPA...do you see how that works? - put the blame were it belongs with the biggests shower of uncreative nitwits in IE management.

You Irish Railway Purists really are something else!

mackerski

Transport21 Fan wrote:

The RPA owe nothing to developing an interchange behind Des Kelly Carpets.

As long as the Metro is being built with my tax Euros, you are IMHO mistaken.

Dermot

SeanW

T21 Fan FWIW, I bash the RPA and Irish Rail in equal measure becuase they are BOTH hopelessly incompetent.

No the RPA are not to blame for the 29000s to Sligo. Any brain dead fool could have seen the sh1t storm coming 10 miles away but IE management has it's head so far up it's rear end from it's glorious successes on the Rosslare line that they thought it would be great to try that trick again.

Just because Irish Rail sucks doesn't mean the RPA is any better - they - NOT IRISH RAIL - are the ones building the Metro (a glorified Luas) to be as incompatible with everything else as possible. So they - NOT IRISH RAIL - need to answer for just what the hell they're doing with the Glasnevin area. Did any of these overpaid surveyors ever actually look at a map of Dublin and say "oh gee, there's a huge heavy railway junction existing there with lines to Connolly, the docklands, Maynooth and Islandbridge? Someone might want to use it someday ... for something"

No they didn't and it seems from their plans they want to make sure no-one ever can build an interchange there.

Metrobest what are you on about with this thing in Singapore? From everything you've said about Singapore, it seems to me like the what-not-to lesson in terms of integration.

We've got one shot at doing this right and the RPA seems bent on messing it up. That doesn't absolve Irish Rail of responsibility for it's disinterest in the Junction, but this is the RPAs gig and it's THER responsibility to get it right.

MarkoP11

This time last year I asked for an explanation of why there was no connection to the Maynooth rail line. In response the RPA said there would be a station at Prospect which would allow passengers to changes subject to the provision of a new suburban rail station

The plans made available this week do not include that provision on the RPA side as such it is fully justified to critise

If IE refused to consider a station the logical and accepted practice would be to build the metro to allow for a station to be provided at a later date, you leave an empty box. Those familiar with London will be aware of the St Pancras Thameslink box that was built left empty and it now being fitted out when funds where found

Bill McH

It probably isn't necessary to get into too much of a tizzy about the RPA map. It'd be just inconceivable in the heel of the hunt that the metro does not have an interchange with the Maynooth line, most probably at Glasnevin Junction.

I'd prefer if it were at Drumcondra though, with access at either end of the metro station to whichever rail line suits the customer, assuming that both rail lines (i.e. the one currently used and the one beside the canal) are eventually used.

While Glasnevin Junction is a great location and it would be crazy not to have an interchange there, the disadvantage I see is that a metro line through GJ would be pretty close to the LUAS line to Liffey Junction and Finglas. If the metro line went through Drumcondra there could be a better spread of quality public transport across the northside.

Transport21 Fan

MarkoP11 wrote:

If IE refused to consider a station the logical and accepted practice would be to build the metro to allow for a station to be provided at a later date, you leave an empty box. Those familiar with London will be aware of the St Pancras Thameslink box that was built left empty and it now being fitted out when funds where found

I have to wonder if Fred West was an IE manager would you would find a way to blame the paving slabs?

mackerski

Just to avoid confusion here - and I am getting a bit confused - do we in fact have people in our midst who support the idea of not providing interchange with the Maynooth line? If so, would they care to explain their reasoning?

Dermot

DerekP11

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I have to wonder if Fred West was an IE manager would you would find a way to blame the paving slabs?

That is one misguided qoute if I ever saw one.

Let me clear a few things up for you.

1. We know IE have no interest in Glasnevin Junction.

2. The metro is being built by the RPA.

MarkoP11 has already highlighted how, regardless of IE, Glasnevin junction can be "ringfenced" by the RPA, if they go under and create a "box" for future development. Just because IE are a binch of twats in this regard(unless there's some unknown engineering reason) that doesn't mean that the RPA are totally "immune" from any role in this potential debacle. For too long in Dublin, we have seen a lack of joined up thinking being applied to transport projects. So I suggest you look at this from you're own positive RPA stance. If they can use their heads and futureproof Glasnevin Junction, regardless of the current muppet mindset within IE, then you can spend many years here praising the RPA for their foresight and saving the city, when someone in IE in the future realises the potential of this junction and builds a station there.

So you win, Dubs win, RPA are king and IE remain an outfit that had to be cajoled into doing something decent, because its hand was forced by a sister state company and the will of the public.

Its all about spin and it can be spun any way you like.

Transport21 Fan

Glasnevin should have been included and I am sorry to see that it has not. But not just because of the Metro. Even without the metro that location would be a fab interchange on the IE network if IE bothered to run trains from Connolly to Kildare [queue MarkoP11 doing Barry Kenny's job for free]. As things stands this is NOT going to happen and all I see on this group is people crying over spilled milk. The RPA and IE don't give a flying fcuk about the location.

Contray to the hysterics on this board, the purpose of MetroNorth is not to be all things to all men...it is ONE link with the primary aim of getting people to Swords and the Airport by metro into the City Centre. It is does this, and provides a one change with the Luas and in time the Interconnector at the Green for the people who will use that. It is not a stand-alone line. They way some people on this board act you would think that people who use Metro/Dart/IE/Luas are people who never actually get off at any point and they somehow only want to make changes from one to the other in endless combinations just for the sake of it.

Which bring me to the MetroWest were the link for Sligo/Maynooth/Navan rail passengers to the airport will happen. But no doubt the same arm-wringers will be on this group when that get's announced claiming that MetroWest is also a joke becuase it does not connect with the DART...

and then go on forever with this "well it does not connect with this!" until we all vanish up our own arses and meanwhile the MetroNOrth and MetroWest gets built no matter what...

Bill McH wrote:

It probably isn't necessary to get into too much of a tizzy about the RPA map. It'd be just inconceivable in the heel of the hunt that the metro does not have an interchange with the Maynooth line, most probably at Glasnevin Junction.

I'd prefer if it were at Drumcondra though, with access at either end of the metro station to whichever rail line suits the customer, assuming that both rail lines (i.e. the one currently used and the one beside the canal) are eventually used.

While Glasnevin Junction is a great location and it would be crazy not to have an interchange there, the disadvantage I see is that a metro line through GJ would be pretty close to the LUAS line to Liffey Junction and Finglas. If the metro line went through Drumcondra there could be a better spread of quality public transport across the northside.

Sarsfield

So you don't support an interchange between metro and heavy rail at Glasnevin Junction? And your reason is because it isn't required to get people from Swords to Stephens Green?

So why criticise IÉ over GJ? Using your own argument it's not required to bring people from Connolly to Maynooth.

Transport21 Fan

Sarsfield wrote:

So you don't support an interchange between metro and heavy rail at Glasnevin Junction? And your reason is because it isn't required to get people from Swords to Stephens Green?

So why criticise IÉ over GJ? Using your own argument it's not required to bring people from Connolly to Maynooth.

Hold on now, I am very much in favour of an interchange between metro and heavy rail at Glasnevin Junction. (FFS; I invented the whole Glasnevin Interchange idea in 2002). I spent 3 years of my life wasting my time trying to make it happen and in the end I came to the realisation that neither the RPA or CIE have any desire to make it happen. What happened yesterday just proved this to me (again).

Listen to me. The RPA/CIE couldn't give a toss about Glasnevin Junction interchange and even less about what people on internet message board think of them. These organisations are a law unto themselves and we are nothing.

There is no fairytale ending with rail transport on this island and there never will be either. The MetroNorth Central Option is the best we are going to get - deal with it. Because there is no alternative.

Sarsfield

Transport21 Fan wrote:

There is no fairytale ending with rail transport on this island and there never will be either. The MetroNorth Central Option is the best we are going to get - deal with it. Because there is no alternative.

Interesting attitude. I've been with CIÉ for approaching 20 years and I still haven't given up on making a difference. Just as well you're not in charge if you quit that easy

Metrobest

Perhaps a civil engineering expert can clarify this, but it does seem to me that, running from the Mater northwards, to have a stop at GJ you would have to bore the tunnel under a lot of old buildings in Phibsboro, then under the Botanic Gardens (the Gardens are not suitable for tunneling under? There are issues with the river and soil there..), and for what? Moving the station to GJ away from Botanic essentially renders the line inaccessible for much of Glasnevin proper. It also complicates the tunneling alignment (at Botanic, the tunnel can follow existing street alignment to DCU; at GJ, it must pass under a lot of buildings, which may not be feasible given that the tunnel depth must be on an upward gradient as it approaches DCU where there will be a portal for the elevated section.

To place a metro station in a landlocked section of land below a disused railway line, which might never be used, at the behest of platform 11's pipedream, is not likely to be high on RPA's agenda, perhaps understandably. Far better, and more practical in my opinion, is to put the station at Botanic; and should there ever be a rail station at GJ the two stations can be linked by an underground or overground walkway - standard practice in metro systems everywhere.

A balance must be struck between interconnectivity for existing rail passengers and accessibility for new ones. Leaving aside the ifs/buts about Glasnevin Junction, there is a certain logic to the whole Central route. It's the fastest, most direct route and the stops are positioned cleverly to pick up maximum numbers of passengers. I have no doubt the Central Route will be chosen.

mackerski

Metrobest wrote:

To place a metro station in a landlocked section of land below a disused railway line, which might never be used, at the behest of platform 11's pipedream, is not likely to be high on RPA's agenda, perhaps understandably.

If the line were disused do you honestly imagine we'd be asking for an interchange?

Dermot

jd

Metrobest wrote:

. I have no doubt the Central Route will be chosen.

Hopefully with an amendment to tunnel under the terminal building at DA, rather thann overland to THE Great Souhern Hotel. (I think it is presented as an option)

aliveandkicking

What the Metro should/could look like

Slippin Jimmy

I have not seen this thread before. What parts of Dublin is it going to be linking up with? What is the news on it?

aliveandkicking

Metrobest wrote:

To place a metro station in a landlocked section of land below a disused railway line, which might never be used,

You have made some ignorant statements in the past Metrobest but this one takes the biscuit. Disused????

Dublin to Maynooth 24 trains per day
Maynooth to Dublin 25 trains per day
Sligo to Dublin 5 trains per day
Dublin to Sligo 5 trains per day
Longford to Dublin 3 trains per day
Dublin to Longford 3 trains per day

That makes 65 exclusive trains going through Glasnevin Junction RIGHT NOW. In the future the Maynooth line will be a Dart, Navan will open and Spencer Dock will be built making it a lot busier than it already is.

"Disused" :rolleyes:

gobdaw

aliveandkicking wrote:

What the Metro should/could look like

Nice!

A similar interchange at Tara Street would facilitate Dundalk/Greystones.Is there proposals for a new high rise building on Tara site?

Interconnectivity is the way to get added value from taxpayers investment in infrastructure. Why no Dublin Transport Authority whose proposed remit, per the professor, included "banging heads2 to achieve this.

Elevated (and height of elevation) at Ballymun seems forced by bridging over existing height of embanked M50. Resulting elevated metro here would be monsterous, and unnecessary. Tunnelling or cut n fill would be for less intrusive, esp if tunnel to terminals is the preference.

Winters

Unused? Where do the 8,000 odd commuters that cram into the new 8 carriage trains in the morning peak hour between Maynooth and Broombridge go to?

Of course there are also 4 new stations, new terminal space and extra paths planned on the Maynooth line just for the fun of it..

Yes the Midland line is currently unused but Glasnevin Junction also recieves the Pheonix Park Tunnel from Kildare/Islandbridge, the Maynooth line from Connolly, Spencer Dock and Sligo aswell as the Midland line which now has a direct curve to Connolly Platform 7 to allow for extra paths.

Check your facts.

---

In regard to the tunnel option under Dublin Airport, Fingal County Council and Dublin Airport Authority are both in favour of the central option plus airport tunnel so I can safely assume that'll be the way it goes.

monument

On changing sections, would “Tara” or Tara St be a better stop then "Trinity"?

Sarsfield

monument wrote:

On changing sections, would “Tara” or Tara St be a better stop then "Trinity"?

I don't think so, although there may be a case for one of Metrobests walkways.

Somebody made the argument that a distribution of stations is better than sending everything through the same point. I agree in this case (very central).

It's the Glasnevin Junction/Prospect/Botanic area where I think a real benefit is to be gained from co-located stations. Otherwise getting from much of West Dublin to much of North Dublin isn't facilitated by the various rail options (yes I know about Metro West but that's very roundabout if heading anywhere other than the airport). Nor is getting from Swords/Airport/North Dublin to Docklands/IFSC facilitated. The options are go via Stephens Green or walk up O'Connell St to get a Luas.

I'm not fixated on the actual Glasnevin Junction location. In fact it's in completely the wrong place - too inaccessible. I didn't make this view at all clear earlier. Just allow for an interchange wherever the lines cross but preferably at a point with it's own local traffic (e.g. Prospect Rd.)

MarkoP11

Spot on map aliveandkicking

In 2012 the year metro north is planned to open there will be at least 8 services per hour on the Maynooth line (2 Longford, 3 Maynooth, 3 Pace) inbound with at least 3 outbound, thats 11

The Kildare line would operate 4 services per hour to Spencer Dock, with at least 2 outbound, thats 6

Thats 17 PER HOUR and its only going to increase

The station site is accessible as its on the Phibsbourgh Rd, its there the junction can't be moved, there of course is an option on two entrances

Aliveandkickings map retains the Botanic stop just moving it north a bit thus no one is left out

jd

Winters wrote:

---

In regard to the tunnel option under Dublin Airport, Fingal County Council and Dublin Airport Authority are both in favour of the central option plus airport tunnel so I can safely assume that'll be the way it goes.

I wouldn't safely assume it..
The preferred route for the central option is by the GS hotel, with under the terminal indicated as an option...

mackerski

jd wrote:

The preferred route for the central option is by the GS hotel, with under the terminal indicated as an option...

We could call it the RyanAir Metro.

Dermot

jd

mackerski wrote:

We could call it the RyanAir Metro.

Dermot

Hidden extra
taxi/bus from the station to the terminus for a fiver..
Oh look MOL can sweat his assets

SeanW

It's clear the Metro won't be able to serve both Airport terminals due to it's line of approach. Now, if the Irish Rail DART Airport spur was approved, it could come from the East in a horizontal direction and could easily have served both.

And there would have been 4/6 DARTs - each 8-12 full-spec coaches - each way per hour instead of or in addition to a few souped up trams. Ah, well.

As it stands, Metro will have to serve only one terminal and DAA is prob. going to have to build an internal LRT to connect the other.

Sarsfield

SeanW wrote:

It's clear the Metro won't be able to serve both Airport terminals due to it's line of approach.

I thought the 2nd terminal (the DAA one) is going to be built adjacent to the current one, basically starting where Pier C is now. So only one stop necessary to serve both. Walkways definitely sufficient here.

Here's a lovely map to illustrate (the green bits being the new work)

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/2160/17460.JPG

SeanW

I got some things mixed up The gov't decision on the Airport decided there would be a small Terminal 2, but (presumably to placate the PDs) that there would be an independent Terminal 3, and it would be one of those Terminal West jobs IIRC.

This presumably will complicate matters.

SeanW

Wow, crap. I just noticed the bit about the Hotel at the Airport now - WTF?

Why the hell would one build a Metro to/through the Airport and then bypass the bloody terminal?

So ... let's see, the Metro has become a segregated Luas, has lost a key feature of integration since the publication of T21 (Glasnevin) and WON'T serve any Airport terminal?

Good heavens, this just keeps getting better. One has to wonder how many more rabbits are in the RPAs hat?

Metrobest

aliveandkicking wrote:

You have made some ignorant statements in the past Metrobest but this one takes the biscuit. Disused????

Dublin to Maynooth 24 trains per day
Maynooth to Dublin 25 trains per day
Sligo to Dublin 5 trains per day
Dublin to Sligo 5 trains per day
Longford to Dublin 3 trains per day
Dublin to Longford 3 trains per day

That makes 65 exclusive trains going through Glasnevin Junction RIGHT NOW. In the future the Maynooth line will be a Dart, Navan will open and Spencer Dock will be built making it a lot busier than it already is.

"Disused" :rolleyes:

The facts are, the midland line is disused, and there is no railway station at GJ Junction. And anyway, the Interconnector Tunnel, opening in 2015, will mean the Park Tunnel will not be used for Kildare suburban trains. Should there ever be a station at GJ, an under/overground walkway can be added at reasonable cost. Provision should be made for this in the design of Botanic Station.

Funny, Aliveandkicking, you were always one to accuse me of drawing crayons on maps when I floated my idea of a circle line. Now here you are deciding metro tunnel alignments and station locations with thanks to Adobe Illustrator. If only designing/building metro lines were that easy :rolleyes:

When Platform 11 made its proposals about GJ, it was stated that the proposals were interesting and "merited evaluation". They were evaluated. We can only assume that, taking everything into account, the Botanic Station stood to benefit the most passengers at the lowest cost. I don't think the RPA would reject GJ as a station location just because it was P11's idea: achieving maximum passenger numbers would be in the RPA's interest.

aliveandkicking

Metrobest wrote:

The facts are, the midland line is disused, and there is no railway station at GJ Junction. And anyway, the Interconnector Tunnel, opening in 2015, will mean the Park Tunnel will not be used for Kildare suburban trains. Should there ever be a station at GJ, an under/overground walkway can be added at reasonable cost. Provision should be made for this in the design of Botanic Station.

Funny, Aliveandkicking, you were always one to accuse me of drawing crayons on maps when I floated my idea of a circle line. Now here you are deciding metro tunnel alignments and station locations with thanks to Adobe Illustrator. If only designing/building metro lines were that easy :rolleyes:

When Platform 11 made its proposals about GJ, it was stated that the proposals were interesting and "merited evaluation". They were evaluated. We can only assume that, taking everything into account, the Botanic Station stood to benefit the most passengers at the lowest cost. I don't think the RPA would reject GJ as a station location just because it was P11's idea: achieving maximum passenger numbers would be in the RPA's interest.

Where above did I mention Kildare line, Park Tunnel or Midland line? I simply pointed out that at present there are 65 trains a day going through a place you said was "disused" and after Navan and Spencer Dock opens it will be a lot busier. You are right there is presently no station at Glasnevin Junction and Irish Rail management are a bunch of twats for not developing this site years ago but that does not take away from the RPA's failure to even make provision for an interchange here. Integration me arse. As for the underground walkway idea, the Botanic stop is approx 400 metres away from GJ and to be honest I can't see anyone building an underground walkway almost half a kilometre long.

As for my fit of crayonism, yes I hold my hands up i am no engineer and I realise designing metros is more than just drawing lines on maps but I thought it would be good to see that it is possible to retain a stop at Mater, curve to GJ then curve back to the original alignment and still retain a stop at Botanic road thus nobody loses out. It is possible the curvature is not too tight. Space for station boxes could be a problem but there is a large green space at Dalcassian Downs for the GJ station box so thats not an issue either.

Any gob****e can see the potential for Glasnevin Junction to be the Stephen's Green of the northside, in fact when everything is built there will be more passengers going through it than at Stephen's Green. If it fails to happen both Irish Rail and the RPA should hang their heads in shame.

maxheadroom

aliveandkicking wrote:

As for the underground walkway idea, the Botanic stop is approx 400 metres away from GJ and to be honest I can't see anyone building an underground walkway almost half a kilometre long.

Just thinking out loud here, but in the context of a 20 metre drop to the station platforms, would it be possible to have a 'station' for people to buy tickets etc at / under glasnevin junction and then have them access the platforms of the 'botanic' stop?

mackerski

The funny thing is that one of the CIE lines used to have a station close to Cross Guns Bridge on the Whitworth Road side, more or less where the central alignment is proposed. I don't think it was the Midland line - can't see that there'd be space in the cutting.

The problem trying to reinstate the station today, of course, is that it can only provide interchange with one or other of the lines, where Glasnevin Junction provides full flexibility (and allows CIE, which presumably owns stacks of land there to earn mucho bread from retail opportunities).

Dermot

MarkoP11

So from 2015 onwards the train numbers passing through Glasnevin will exceed even what the loop line manages currently

For the morning rush

12 inbound services
4 Maynooth, 4 Pace, 2 Longford, 2 Navan

10 outbound services
4 Maynooth, 4 Pace, 1 Longford, 1 Navan

Total 22

Thats before you consider the use of the Park Tunnel and noting that there will be 6 long distance commuter services into Heuston, Kildare and Newbridge are no longer on the DART plans (thanks to the DTO). There will be a 3 platform station sitting in Spencer Dock (and delivered 2 years ahead of the T21 quoted date) which has to cope with only a handful of trains.

Of the 8 tracks approaching Glasnevin 6 are in daily use, the remaining 2 where closed in the late 1990's due to a combination of construction at Croke Park and the opening of Drumcondra station, until then the line was used on a daily basis by both freight and passenger services. The line was relaid and is signalled to the same standard as the Drumcondra route and will reopen when Spencer Dock opens in 2007, part of it is open currently. Having 4 tracks to Spencer Dock provides two routes allowing the autorouting element of signalling system to route trains the way it feels is best and also provides a alternative route.

You need to have a station such that you combine
1 Change Midland (MGWR line, Spencer Dock plus secondary route to Connolly)
2 Change Drumcondra (GS&WR line current main route)
3 Change Metro

Joe Meagher CEO of IE before a joint oireachtas committee said

We certainly intend to use the Phoenix Park tunnel in the short term to bring trains from the Kildare-Newbridge area into Spencer Dock because there is a demand for that.

You could operate a shuttle service between Spencer Dock and Heuston (the interconnector platforms are to be half way between P8 and P10) serving Cabra Phibsbourgh etc. Or some of the long distance commuter services could be sent over to Spencer Dock or indeed Connolly as Heuston is operationally difficult for high frequency services, that gives you at least 3 more inbound and a similar number outbound that brings the total number of services to 30, St Stephen's Green will only see 24. There are lots of options out there and not having the metro pass reasonably close to Glasnevin Junc will prevent this

Centralising the connections in St Stephen's Green introduces a single point of failure, forces people to travel further and make more connections. Every connection looses you potential users as it adds hassle, adds walking distance, adds time, adds ticketing complexity in some cases and most of all increases the potential for it to go wrong. Dublin is a small city and no more than one change is a realistic possibility

The route map the RPA have produced is a crayon map, they picked a few stations where there is green space to stick a station box and did a best fit style line in the absence of ground investigation and locating services such as large sewers and water mains its by no means the actual route.

Botanic is 400+ meters away thats the same distance as Tara Street to Pearse stations its not a realistic, you put a station at Glasnevin Junc accessible from the Phibsborough Rd and reposition Botanic to the green space which is north of its current proposed location.

None of the route options presented by the RPA offer any kind of meaningful integration with the Maynooth line. To my knowledge the RPA have not produced any study into Glasnevin as they have been unable to offer any reason (10 months after the O'Reilly report) whatsoever why its not there. If they had a study surely they would be more than eager to kill the issue. The RPA will meet a nasty end at public inquiry stage if they fail to produce some concrete facts.

Transport21 Fan

aliveandkicking wrote:

Any gob****e can see the potential for Glasnevin Junction to be the Stephen's Green of the northside, in fact when everything is built there will be more passengers going through it than at Stephen's Green. If it fails to happen both Irish Rail and the RPA should hang their heads in shame.

This may sound a bit nuts...but what about taking a legal injunction in the High Court against the Government's proposed selling of Mountjoy Prison on the grounds that developing a major residential and comercial development on the site would be usustainable unless a rail/metro interchange is provided around the corner at Glasnevin Junction?

Victor

Metrobest wrote:

Perhaps a civil engineering expert can clarify this,

I take it you aren't.

but it does seem to me that, running from the Mater northwards, to have a stop at GJ you would have to bore the tunnel under a lot of old buildings in Phibsboro, then under the Botanic Gardens (the Gardens are not suitable for tunneling under? There are issues with the river and soil there..),

Not a problem. Do you think the daffodils would complain?

The Port Tunnel has been dug with material damage to a total of two buildings - both house extensions.

Transport21 Fan

Also maybe a High Court injunction against CIE's implementing further development on the Navan and Maynooth line and the RPA on the Metro on the grounds that both organisation are developing rail plans which are directly in conflict with the aims of Transport21 and the Government guidelines on Land Usuage/Transportation and integration?

The publicity for Glasnevin Junction in the media would be collossal and unlike the M3, there is a real case here which would expose the lack of cohesion between Irish Rail and the RPA and the Government's, DoT and New Dublin transport body complete inability to "knocks head together" in order to have them all singing from the same integration hymn street. The Office of Public Works/McDowell would brick it if they could not sell off Mountjoy for megabucks.

Just a thought, ignore me if I am talking arse. But when all other avenues and used up...Internet warriors talking on the internet won't make it happen.

Not that I can be arsed either, but complaining on Intenet message boards ain't gonna make this happen. The only thing IE management have ever understood is fear and being exposed as the visionless muppets they are. I have stood on podioums and seen them shaking in their designer suits at one time many years ago when P11 was a real rail lobby and not a Inchicore/Fairview/Drogheda works fanclub it is now.

Time for a new rail lobby?

Victor

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Just a thought, ignore me if I am talking arse. But when all other avenues and used up...Internet warriors talking on the internet won't make it happen.

Speak for yourself.

[strike]Brennan[/strike]
[strike]Callely[/strike]
Cullen
Gallagher

I'm doing it in alphabetical order.

Metrobest

Victor wrote:

I take it you aren't.
.

Are you? Or did you major in snide remarks?

Victor

Metrobest wrote:

Are you? Or did you major in snide remarks?

No, I'm a Quantity Surveyor.

By the way, anything to declare? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=126578

Victor

The original Airport Luas routes.

SeanW

Metrobest wrote:

I don't think the RPA would reject GJ as a station location just because it was P11's idea: achieving maximum passenger numbers would be in the RPA's interest.

Uh-huh. That's why Platform 11s highlight of the need for 40m trams to be on the Red Line is, in Ger Hannon's words "nonsense." Because it's OK to have a system running miles over capacity and not try to do anything about it?

Face it Metrobest, the RPA is no better than the Irish Rail you dislike so intensely.

Victor wrote:

By the way, anything to declare? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=126578

Save your breath, Victor, I already asked about 6 months ago.

DerekP11

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Not that I can be arsed either, but complaining on Intenet message boards ain't gonna make this happen. The only thing IE management have ever understood is fear and being exposed as the visionless muppets they are. I have stood on podioums and seen them shaking in their designer suits at one time many years ago when P11 was a real rail lobby and not a Inchicore/Fairview/Drogheda works fanclub it is now.

Time for a new rail lobby?

Ah yes Thomas. You've had your finger on the trigger for a while now.

What a pity you decided to fire in public. I'll let the public make up their own minds on your above quote.

Its amazing how out of touch one can get and so quickly.

Im not going to get sucked into this infantile rant. P11 is still striving to get beyond that. No further comment.