Did Del Horno Deserve a red card?

CountryWise

Well everyone has seen the challenge a million time over by now i assume. What is the general opinion on this red card, Mouriniho states that Messi was Rolling rolling rolling after the challenge, am i seeing things or did the culprit of the challenge Del Horno not do the same to try and con the Ref?

super_furry

It was a foul that deserved a yellow, a red was too harsh. Del Horno jumped over the ball and into Messi but I don't think it was Messi's reaction that got him sent off, more the referee's position.

p.pete

Anyone got a clip of it?
I think it's funny that this happens to Chelsea, BBC5 were pointing out earlier that it was on almost the same patch of grass where Robben got Reina sent off - but I'd like to see a clip

Big Nelly

Think everyone on here with a brain will agree it was only a yellow at best. Both players didnt want to tackle and thats why it happened. If Del Horno had kicked the ball he wouldnt have hit Messi as bad as it looked


Just a point that I mentioned on other thread, Messi should be banned for 3-4 games. Sick of the crap in the game, was waiting for a great game last nite and after that happened I knew it wouldnt be a great game but a struggle for Chelsea. If it is so clear from TV pictures that the player was only rolling around to try and get a player sent off they should get a 3-4 game banned and the player who gets sent off should be allowed to play

Only way to stop this, was funny the Cantona ad on after that! great timing!

Dempsey

It was a red card and the panel on RTE gave the exact reasons why. Mourinho is a sore loser and his ego was too badly hurt to admit Barca are a superior side

Thanx 4 The Fish

I have a brain, seems Dempsey does too (as if he didn't he would most likely be dead) and yet he disagrees with you, what do now nelly ??? I do not agree with you either btw. Dell Horno got nowhere near the ball and had messi not got out of the way he could have been very badly injured. It is not always about the amount of contact made, it is often about intent too and it seemed that he made absolutely no attempt to play the ball.

CountryWise

http://home.skysports.com/football/

There is an interview with Mouriniho on the right and clips of the incident

Washout

Del hornos foot did seem to be quite high.

I thought the ref was barave and made the correct decision.

and as far as messis reaction...what about Del hornos display of being "knocked down by a car"

I think its fair to say that EVERY team feigns injuries in order to try and get players sent off. we dont like it but im afraid to say its part and parcel of the game.

at the end of the day the ref has to view the tackle and block player reaction out of his mind.

CountryWise

He didnt play the ball and if Messi's standing leg had not of left the ground before he hit him he could have been seriously injured! I agree no need for the rolling around but did nobody see Del horno doing the exact same

copacetic

neither of them looked at the ball, they both chickened out of the tackle at the same time and collided. hate chelsea but there was no way that was a red card. yellow for both of them..

happy enough though was loving when he was slagging off barcelona and their theatrics when chelsea are the most cynical team in the league.

super_furry

Indeed. Jose seemed to forget Robben's histrionics against Liverpool in a hurry.

gracehopper

I thought the ref was right. Del horno didnt go for the ball. Messi tried to get out of the way and Del horno went in maliciously and still caught him so a red card was the right decision

ishnid

p.pete wrote:

Anyone got a clip of it?
I think it's funny that this happens to Chelsea, BBC5 were pointing out earlier that it was on almost the same patch of grass where Robben got Reina sent off - but I'd like to see a clip

Grass?!? I thought it was played at Stamford Bridge :rolleyes:

iregk

Dempsey wrote:

It was a red card and the panel on RTE gave the exact reasons why. Mourinho is a sore loser and his ego was too badly hurt to admit Barca are a superior side

Yawn, another anti chelsea loving the loss rant.

The thing is, I think del horno was trying to get the ball adn the man, in other words give the lad a kicking but get away with it on the basis that he got the ball. He mad a mess of it and got stuck in no mans land and got only the player. It was a yello card, never a red.

What annoys me is that the ref made no effort to talk iwth teh linesman who was right on top of the incident.

kaimera

Big Nelly wrote:

Think everyone on here with a brain will agree it was only a yellow at best. Both players didnt want to tackle and thats why it happened. If Del Horno had kicked the ball he wouldnt have hit Messi as bad as it looked

I have a brain...and anybody with eyes could see that Del Horno made no attempt to play the ball. In fact, he pulled his leg up away from the ball if anything.

Deserved red tbh.

Just a point that I mentioned on other thread, Messi should be banned for 3-4 games. Sick of the crap in the game, was waiting for a great game last nite and after that happened I knew it wouldnt be a great game but a struggle for Chelsea. If it is so clear from TV pictures that the player was only rolling around to try and get a player sent off they should get a 3-4 game banned and the player who gets sent off should be allowed to play

Like Robben perhaps not too long ago?

TheDoc

definatly not a red. del horno had a fresh air swipe. clearly evident from replays. typical barca surrounding the ref and clearly pressuring him.

he was a joke of a ref tbh.

super_furry

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote:

definatly not a red. del horno had a fresh air swipe. clearly evident from replays. typical barca surrounding the ref and clearly pressuring him.

he was a joke of a ref tbh.

Thing is, I think he realised his mistake at half-time and tried to 'level things up' because in the second half he gave absolutly EVERYTHING Chelsea's way. Barca were denied a stonewall penalty when Terry not only ploughed into a Barca player (can't remember which one) in the box, but then grabbed the ball with his hands while on the ground despite no whistle being blown.

Jivin Turkey

All talking of divng and feigning injury aside because this is about the tackle and nothing else, if this was WBA versus Chelsea and the exact same tackle happened with a WBA defender walking there would be outrage of bias on this site in favour of Chelsea.

It was no way, at all, that it was a straight red. It was not malicious or cynical, just a little clumsy. I think everybody here knows it, but is letting their dislike for Chelsea cloud their judgement.

Who cares about Robben against Liverpool, or how Messi or Del Horno reacted. The tackle was no way deserving of a red.

Dempsey

iregk wrote:

Yawn, another anti chelsea loving the loss rant.

The thing is, I think del horno was trying to get the ball adn the man, in other words give the lad a kicking but get away with it on the basis that he got the ball. He mad a mess of it and got stuck in no mans land and got only the player. It was a yello card, never a red.

What annoys me is that the ref made no effort to talk iwth teh linesman who was right on top of the incident.

Yawn yerself, anti-chelsea? I couldn't care less about any of the english clubs. Chelsea were 2nd best on the night, end of story, even before the sending off.

Del Horno jumped over the ball into Messi and didnt make any attempt to take the ball. The referee did consult the linesman if you were watching the incident properly.

LegacyUser

Lets dissect the incident objectively...

1. Robben & Messi chasing down ball towards Chelsea goal-line.

2. Robben tries to shepherd ball out for goal-kick, without actually trying to even play the ball.

3. Messi swiftly nips around him, and then megs Robben fruitless diving challenge.

4. Del Horno comes in at pace, and completely misses the ball, which is moving at less than walking pace towards him.

5. With his leg raised high enough to miss the ball , Del Horno clatters Messi, who had quickly jumped in the air when seeing the onrushing defender.

6. Del Horno immediately realises this could be a disaster, and feigns injury in the hope of avoiding drastic action, for what was a ridiculously stupid tackle.

7. He glances towards ref and then writhes around in "agony"

8. Messi immediately realises this could be a disaster for Chelsea.

9. He glances towards ref and then writhes around in "agony"

10. Referee waits until Del Horno makes a full recovery and brandished red card to Del Horno.


You could also subscribe to this opinion - Even if you wanted both players booked for the theatricals, Del Horno should have been at the very least also booked for the challenge, and also the previous tackle when advantage was played. Using simple maths, Yellow + Yellow = Red


IMO, with all things considered, the challenge warranted a straight red.

TheMonster

iregk wrote:

Yawn, another anti chelsea loving the loss rant.

The thing is, I think del horno was trying to get the ball adn the man, in other words give the lad a kicking but get away with it on the basis that he got the ball. He mad a mess of it and got stuck in no mans land and got only the player. It was a yello card, never a red.

What annoys me is that the ref made no effort to talk iwth teh linesman who was right on top of the incident.

Take a look and this and explain how he was trying to get the ball.

[URL="[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/9461/messitackle1zt.jpg[/IMG][/URL]"][/url]

CountryWise

Del Horno didnt get near the ball??
Why should Messi have got a yellow for trying to get out of the way?
so i guess Messi's yellow should have been for rolling around then in peoples opinions....??
In my reckoning then a yellow then for Del Horno for the kick and another yellow for the rolling around by Del Horno also means a sending off....if thats the view people would like to take!
Im not being biased but if that had of been Rooney that had of kicked Messi like that people would have said he deserved a red without debate and every paper in england would have a special pullout supplement on the tackle

Headshot

Mouriniho is always talking ****

look at the reaction of del Horno after the tackle
rolling around

Messi was bad but Del Horno tried to get of the booking

im delighted barca winning
it shows football wins in the end
not chelsea way of football [which i find boring]

Barca last night played great stuff,such a lovely side to watch
such great skills and passing

Dempsey

CountryWise wrote:

Im not being biased but if that had of been Rooney that had of kicked Messi like that people would have said he deserved a red without debate and every paper in england would have a special pullout supplement on the tackle

LOL

county

CountryWise wrote:

Im not being biased but if that had of been Rooney that had of kicked Messi like that people would have said he deserved a red without debate and every paper in england would have a special pullout supplement on the tackle

very true and i also remember ronaldo getting sent off in the manchester derby for kicking fresh air,no contact at all

CountryWise

Robben's reaction was also sickening to try and make out to the REF that it was a bad challenge from Messi, i mean he is a great player no doubt but his off the ball actions are making him the most hated of Chelsea's players,their is a certain amount of respect for others at least

Ardent

I also have a brain and it was a definite red - if Del Horno had got anywhere even remotely near the ball there might be some element of doubt.

As for the poster looking for a 3-4 game ban for Messi, what your own player Del Horno? Or even Robben v Liverpool. Holier than thou, I don't think so.

Big Nelly

p.pete wrote:

Anyone got a clip of it?
I think it's funny that this happens to Chelsea, BBC5 were pointing out earlier that it was on almost the same patch of grass where Robben got Reina sent off - but I'd like to see a clip

Difference is Reina raised his hands so deserved to be sent off! Del Horno didnt deserve to be sent off

Thanx 4 The Fish

Raising your hand is not an offence that can get you sent off though. Do you know the laws of the game or do you just rely on sky to inform you ?

Striking a player is an offence that can get you sent off, as is a "Dangerous tackle" if messi had not got his standing leg out of the way it would have been broken in half, I have seen it happen too many times to talk about and you can never gets used to seeing it. If you look at the clip posted above you will see that there was absolutely no attempt to play the ball, it was all about the man and if in the refs opinion he endangered another player then it is an offence that can be punished by a red, as it seems it was. The ref has followed the laws of the game and without being able to read DH's mind he cannot know if there was intent to hurt the oppo player, which there seems there was, or a bloody clumsy effort to get a ball that was already away from him in a different direction.

PHB

Well, if Messi was playacting, then he deserved to be booked. So if Del Horne was play acting, he also deserved to be booked.
Since the tackle definally deserved a yellow, then it was a red card.

Also, the taclkes he made earlier on on messi, 2 of them, both deserved yellows, so he shoulda been on his 4th yellow by the time of the sending off.

CountryWise

Messi was making a show of him, i agree with an earlier post that he initially probably meant to get a bit of the ball and alot of the ball to let the kid know he was there ,but he didnt get any of the ball

Ardent

Big Nelly wrote:

Difference is Reina raised his hands so deserved to be sent off! Del Horno didnt deserve to be sent off

You are clearly on a wind-up mission. This doesn't warrant a serious reply.

LegacyUser

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

Raising your hand is not an offence that can get you sent off though. Do you know the laws of the game or do you just rely on sky to inform you ?

Striking a player is an offence that can get you sent off, as is a "Dangerous tackle" if messi had not got his standing leg out of the way it would have been broken in half, I have seen it happen too many times to talk about and you can never gets used to seeing it. If you look at the clip posted above you will see that there was absolutely no attempt to play the ball, it was all about the man and if in the refs opinion he endangered another player then it is an offence that can be punished by a red, as it seems it was. The ref has followed the laws of the game and without being able to read DH's mind he cannot know if there was intent to hurt the oppo player, which there seems there was, or a bloody clumsy effort to get a ball that was already away from him in a different direction.

Very well put.

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

....and without being able to read DH's mind he cannot know if there was intent to hurt the oppo player, which there seems there was, or a bloody clumsy effort to get a ball that was already away from him in a different direction.

Given that Del Horno, who is a professional footballer, failed to complete the simple task of making any contact with the ball, there is overwhelming evidence to support the allegation that there was intent to hurt/injure/take out the opposing player.

iregk

TheMonster wrote:

Take a look and this and explain how he was trying to get the ball.

[URL="[URL=http://imageshack.us][IMG]http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/9461/messitackle1zt.jpg[/IMG][/URL]"][/url]

Right well thats conslusive isn't it? The ball is behind him and is legs is waist hight. Christ when i kick the ball my leg goes waist high!!!

RustySpoon

Andy Gray was right "you reap what you sow"

last night i thought it was a bit harsh but after looking at the clip in the cold light of day, it looked like Del Horno raised his left leg for a bit of a kick at Messi and deserved to go. No attempt for the ball, high, late and dangerous.

Jimboo_Jones

I remember when this use to be a mans game

Saw the highlight on the news and I think its diabolical the lengths that some players will go to now days - I also find it sad that so many people above seem to think its exceptable now days.

I suppose if it happend against my teams rivals, derby county, that I might have a sly smile on my face - but I really, really think that this is something that should be stamped out on.

Maybe there should be a manatory 3 minutes off the field of play for every roll a player does along the ground

TheMonster

iregk wrote:

Right well thats conslusive isn't it? The ball is behind him and is legs is waist hight. Christ when i kick the ball my leg goes waist high!!!

he didn't kick the ball - its rolling the other way:rolleyes:

Mr Magnolia

IMO, a yellow card, the 2 of them bottled it, no malice in the collision, though he did knee Messi in the face a couple of minutes previous(if my memory serves me, feel free to correct)

Robben + Del Horno + Messi = 3 big girls blouses

Yellow card for anyone play-acting or arguing with the ref(except the captain, his approach should be permitted), this needs to be stamped out IMO.

LegacyUser

Sparks400 wrote:

Robben + Del Horno + Messi = 3 big girls blouses

For "Robben + Del Horno + Messi" insert "most professional footballers"

It high time soccer took a leaf from rugby's book:

Referee is mic'ed up = the public realise the language and abuse the ref receives from not the fans, but the players!

Backchat = yellow card

Referee talks to captains only, and only when he requests it, and additional players involved if he deems necessary.

It pisses me off to see referees walking backwards when confronted by a group of players. He immediately puts himself on the back foot.

If I were a ref, I would even go as far as give post match interviews to explain my actions and counteract the mostly laughable claims made by the managers/players etc.

The tabloid media also have a problem when they constantly see the referee's as "ruining the game" when they actually discipline anyone at all!

Jimboo_Jones

another thing that really irks me is when a player does that 'card motion' after they have done a couple of rolls along the floor :mad:

redspider

I didnt vote. For the tackle, a definite yellow, no doubt about that, but it was touch and ago if it deserved a red. In real-time from the Ref's angle, perhaps, but in slow-mo from many angles a straight red was slighlty harsh. It was a key decision as it affected the game.

However, Del Horno's acting afterwards was diabolical. For that I would have given him a yellow just for the bad acting. It is a rule that you can get a yellow for diving and playacting, which is what Del Horno did, so I dont think any Chelsea fans can say that a Red was completely out of order.

Overall, a good game last night from a neutrals point of view. One thing I did notice. The pub I was in, the lads and the few lassies started clapping when Barca's second went in. There is clearly an ABC (anyone but Chelsea) feeling out there at the moment. I'm never anti- anyteam although there are obviously attitudes and shenanigans that players/managers get up which I clearly condone (or was that condemn :-0 ), and I'm more of an ABA (anyone but Abramovich) due to his level of corruption and the way that his loss-spending "investment" is influencing the sport/business/game.

redspider

Villain

T4TF If by raising your hand you mean putting your hand on an opponent's face or chest your incorrect, once you put your hand on an opponents face you CAN be sent off, now the laws of the game leave enough room for a referee to decide whether or not he wants to sent off a player, but he is well within his rights to send off a player for raising his hand to an opponents face.

Now in relation to Del Horno, both incidents were yellow cards, i.e. the one where he rips Messi's shorts by raising his foot and the one where he colides with Messi.

If anyone on here thinks referee's should be sending players off only for the incident where he received the straight red, I think they need to start watching some more premiership or even division 1 football, because incidents happen like that week in week out and if Referee's start producing straight reds for them we'll be seeing an awful lot of red cards every week.

The referee made 2 mistakes imo, he should have booked him for the first incident and he didn't he should have booked him for the second incident and he didn't he gave him a straight red, maybe in the Norway league that is a sending off but not in any other league I watch every week.

ferdi

PHB wrote:

Well, if Messi was playacting, then he deserved to be booked. So if Del Horne was play acting, he also deserved to be booked.
Since the tackle definally deserved a yellow, then it was a red card.

Also, the taclkes he made earlier on on messi, 2 of them, both deserved yellows, so he shoulda been on his 4th yellow by the time of the sending off.

agreed. the tackle itself was a yellow. the fact that Del Horno rolled around like a bitch afterwards makes it a red. Messi should have got a yellow for faking injury too. i hate that kind of BS.

Mr Magnolia

Jimboo_Jones wrote:

another thing that really irks me is when a player does that 'card motion' after they have done a couple of rolls along the floor :mad:

Yup, book him too. They'd only have to do it for a while, the players wouldn't be long catching on.

bruachain wrote:

For "Robben + Del Horno + Messi" insert "most professional footballers"

I know what your saying, I was just dealing with the 3 players that are being discussed, there are a lot of pro's acting like t!ts, and it's impressing no-one.

I missed that new Cantona add last night, look forward to it.

Big Nelly

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

I have a brain, seems Dempsey does too (as if he didn't he would most likely be dead) and yet he disagrees with you, what do now nelly ??? I do not agree with you either btw.

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

Raising your hand is not an offence that can get you sent off though. Do you know the laws of the game or do you just rely on sky to inform you ?

usual cr*p ranting from you on every post I make, why don't you grow up!!!

So you think Players should be allowed grap people around the face, ahh sure its ok once they don't knock someone out. The rule is that you are not allowed raise your hand, end of story, he grabbed Robben on the face. doesnt matter about his reaction. He also nearly cleared someone out of it a few secs beforehand but I suppose this doesnt matter because its Liverpool. Sure they can do no wrong, Liverpool are great, blah blah blah

Thanx 4 The Fish

No, you are wrong irish, there is no law that states that you can be sent off for placing your hand on a players face, chest, testicles or any other part of their body. If the ref interprets that act as striking another player you can be sent off but the act of raising a hand is not punishable under the laws of the game. I can understand that you leave yourself open to calls that you struck or attempted to strike a player but as stated above, the act of raising a hand or placing a hand on another player does not in itself warrant a booking.

Nelly, perhaps you should read what I said instead of going off on another of your mini I hate liverpool crusades without understanding. I am a ref, firstly lets set you straight on a few things, there are no rules in football there are LAWS. The Law you are misunderstanding is law 12 and mentions "striking or attempting to strike an opponent". As I have already said, it is down to the interpretation of the act by the ref but raising your hands is not an offence under the laws of the game.

As for the can do no wrong bit, get over yourself, you do not like liverpool, of that there is little doubt, why I do not particulalrly care, I did not say that Reina did not deserve to go, I merely pointed out that the act of raising a hand is not an offence punishable by a red card as you suggested. You are wrong, accept it and move on, reminds me alot of another poster whi seems to not like liverpool or any threads related to them, name escapes me atm.

Villain

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

No, you are wrong irish, there is no law that states that you can be sent off for placing your hand on a players face, chest, testicles or any other part of their body. If the ref interprets that act as striking another player you can be sent off but the act of raising a hand is not punishable under the laws of the game. I can understand that you leave yourself open to calls that you struck or attempted to strike a player but as stated above, the act of raising a hand or placing a hand on another player does not in itself warrant a booking.

Raising you hand to a players face can be considered by the referee to be either striking a player or to be serious foul play. Both of which you can be sent off for.

Now as I said already "now the laws of the game leave enough room for a referee to decide whether or not he wants to sent off a player, but he is well within his rights to send off a player for raising his hand to an opponents face"

But imo you were incorrect when you said "Raising your hand is not an offence that can get you sent off though" because you can clearly be sent off it, it just depends on how the referee see it.

Thanx 4 The Fish

You are entitled to your opinion, however all that I have said t=is that raising a hand is not an offence. If it was I am sure there would be some mention of it in the laws. Striking or intent to strike is, foul play or misconduct is but if you look at a refs report you will never see raising a hand as the reason quoted for a sending off, it will be in part of the description of the events around the sending off but the offence of raising a hand does not exist as some people here seem to think. That is the only point I am making, nothing to do with wheter a player should have gone or not, just that raising a hand is not something you can be sent off for but if the ref interprets that act as either serious foul play or violent conduct you can be off.

PHB

Raising you hand to a players face can be considered by the referee to be either striking a player or to be serious foul play. Both of which you can be sent off for.

Yeh, just like raising your foot to a players leg can be considered by the referee to be either striking a player or to be serious foul play. Both of which you can be sent off for.

It does not make raising your foot illegal. You are using silly logic.

CountryWise

there is definitely a ABC feeling out there and as a Man Utd fan im more than willing to admit there is a certain element of jealousy out there as there premiership run seems relentless but i truly believe the premiership is poor at the moment and making them look good and i was certain Barca would find them out......in saying that they are still a very good team!
But the ABC feeling is more because of people like Arwen Robben's play-acting and the arrogance and post match comments from Mouriniho.
I still have alot of respect for the rest of the chelsea players, i think its because there main players(Terry,Lampard, and Makelele) have a high degree of honesty about them.

Thanx 4 The Fish

PHB wrote:

Yeh, just like raising your foot to a players leg can be considered by the referee to be either striking a player or to be serious foul play. Both of which you can be sent off for.

It does not make raising your foot illegal. You are using silly logic.

Not really comparing like with like there PHB. The only person who should be raising a hand to get a ball is a keeper or Stephane Henchoz and so it is easier to determine than with kicking a player when going for the ball, which can just be clumsy or late with out any malice involved.