Did Del Horno Deserve a red card?

Villain

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

You are entitled to your opinion, however all that I have said t=is that raising a hand is not an offence. If it was I am sure there would be some mention of it in the laws. Striking or intent to strike is, foul play or misconduct is but if you look at a refs report you will never see raising a hand as the reason quoted for a sending off, it will be in part of the description of the events around the sending off but the offence of raising a hand does not exist as some people here seem to think. That is the only point I am making, nothing to do with wheter a player should have gone or not, just that raising a hand is not something you can be sent off for but if the ref interprets that act as either serious foul play or violent conduct you can be off.

If Fifa were to start making laws to cover everything the rule book would soon be too long for refs to remember everything, striking or attempting to strike a player covers slapping, boxing, pushing, headbutting and anything else you want to include. It's up to the referee to decide whether or not he sees it as such.

My point is that you are incorrect by saying "Raising your hand is not an offence that can get you sent off though", it clearly is, what you are now saying is that there is no specific law that relates to raising your hand, that very different.

Thanx 4 The Fish

irish1 wrote:

If Fifa were to start making laws to cover everything the rule book would soon be too long for refs to remember everything, striking or attempting to strike a player covers slapping, boxing, pushing, headbutting and anything else you want to include. It's up to the referee to decide whether or not he sees it as such.

My point is that you are incorrect by saying "Raising your hand is not an offence that can get you sent off though", it clearly is, what you are now saying is that there is no specific law that relates to raising your hand, that very different.

So in a game if I patted you on the back of the head in a concilliatory fashion after missing a shot for example, I could get sent off as I have raised my hands. What have said is wrong. You will often see in a game where somebody pats a player on the back of the head, keepers do it to thank players for giving the ball back to them, should they get sent off because they raised their hands ? No they should not, it is all about the intent and the referees interpretation of that intent as an infringement upon the laws of the game.

Villain

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

So in a game if I patted you on the back of the head in a concilliatory fashion after missing a shot for example, I could get sent off as I have raised my hands. What you are saying is wrong. You will often see that in a game where somebody pats a player on the back of the head, keepers do it to thank players for giving the ball back to them, should the get sent off because they raised their hands ? No they should not, it is all about the intent and the referees interpretation of that intent as an infringement upon the laws of the game.

Ok now you have gone from raising your hand to someone to tapping someone on the head!!

Listen to what I am saying, I am saying a referee CAN send a player off for raising his hand. I NEVER SAID A PLAYER HAS TO BE SENT OFF FOR IT, so what I am saying is not wrong, what you said was wrong i.e. "Raising your hand is not an offence that can get you sent off though" you clearly CAN be, depening on how the ref sees it.

Once again I am NOT saying if you raise your hand you have to be sent off I am saying a ref CAN send you off. What you have said is clearly wrong, what I have said is clearly correct.

It's very simple really.

cruiserweight

CountryWise wrote:

I still have alot of respect for the rest of the chelsea players, i think its because there main players(Terry,Lampard, and Makelele) have a high degree of honesty about them.

Don't know about Makelele I remember a certain incident against Monaco a couple of years back!

As for the ABC the pub I was in last night a alot of people were cheering for Barcelona, in fact I think there was only one guy in the place supporting Chelski!

As for the sending off, I like a couple of other people here have mentioned believe that Del Horno should have been booked for the earlier tackle where he cuaght Messi around the knee and ripped his shorts! The incident where he was sent off was probably a yellow but you can see how the ref could give a red! As for the rolling around both players were doing it and both should have been punished! I have noticed this creeping into Chelski's play make an awful tackle and then pretend to be injured so you can get away with it e.g. Essien versus Bolton! Finally all I can say is what goes around come around!

TheMonster

cruiserweight wrote:

I have noticed this creeping into Chelski's play make an awful tackle and then pretend to be injured so you can get away with it e.g. Essien versus Bolton! Finally all I can say is what goes around come around!

Its happened a few times - Maureen has prob told them if they make a bad tackle to pretend they are injured in the hope of leniency.

okden

mourinho is a genius, at missdirection, we should not look at the full 90 minutes, just a 1 second foul, we should not look at del horno leaping at messi, just messi jumping forward, we should not look at del horno rolling around, just messi rolling AFTER.

BEFORE the 1 second foul messi and del horno had met on the pitch

12th minute del horno foul on messi ....warned by ref

30th minute del horno high-foot studs-showing, studs messi's knee ...ref takes no action

35th minute mesi goes on a 40 yard run, del horno fouls him at both ends of the 40 yards ....then ref red cards del horno

hawtornes commentry on messi's 40 yard run,
'now messi, caught again by del horno, the referee had his whistle to his lips, so he may want to speak to del horno, bearing in mind the accumilation factor, robben, [del horno] dives in'

so why isnt the accumilation factor an option in the poll.... because mourinho is a genius, at missdirection.

well messi is a genius on the pitch, and he will be entertaining us long after we tire of joses tricks. we should enjoy messi while hes not injured because this kid is going to get a lot of kicks in his career, all it takes is one like the 30th minute one to end it.

Thanx 4 The Fish

What i said though was "Raising your hand is not an offence that can get you sent off though" not as you suggest that raising your hand will not get you sent off. Note the use of the word offence. Raising your hand can get you sent off but it is not an offence in the laws of the game. As have been highlighted in the situation described above.

Accumulation will get you a yellow not a red, probably the reason that it is not an option.

Villain

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

What i said though was "Raising your hand is not an offence that can get you sent off though" not as you suggest that raising your hand will not get you sent off. Note the use of the word offence. Raising your hand can get you sent off but it is not an offence in the laws of the game. As have been highlighted in the situation described above.

Accumulation will get you a yellow not a red, probably the reason that it is not an option.

No what you mean is, there no offence that directly describes raising your hand as been a sending off but other offences can include it, all I was saying was that you can get sent off for raising your hand I'm gald you agree raising your hand can get you sent off because it can be seen as a sending off offence.

Thanx 4 The Fish

And I am glad that you agree with my original point that raising your hand ins not an offence under the laws of the game.

Do we hug now or is it later on ?

BaZmO*

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

So in a game if I patted you on the back of the head in a concilliatory fashion after missing a shot for example, I could get sent off as I have raised my hands. What have said is wrong. You will often see in a game where somebody pats a player on the back of the head, keepers do it to thank players for giving the ball back to them, should they get sent off because they raised their hands ? No they should not, it is all about the intent and the referees interpretation of that intent as an infringement upon the laws of the game.

And today's thread has been sposored by the words "Silly" and "Pedantic"

Why aren't we discussing the more important issue of John Terry and Frank Lampard's fake tans?? I remember when football used to be a man's game!!

For what it's worth, I thought that the tackle was certainly worthy of slightly more than a yellow but not quite a red, so in lieu of his previous tackle I reckon he deserved to go. What's that about things generally evening themselves out over the course of a season......

county

BaZmO* wrote:

And today's thread has been sposored by the words "Silly" and "Pedantic"

Why aren't we discussing the more important issue of John Terry and Frank Lampard's fake tans?? I remember when football used to be a man's game!!

For what it's worth, I thought that the tackle was certainly worthy of slightly more than a yellow but not quite a red, so in lieu of his previous tackle I reckon he deserved to go. What's that about things generally evening themselves out over the course of a season......

lol:D

GuanYin

Tbh I thought it was a harsh red, but a red none the less.

I actually though Robben was very lucky to escape, when the ball was taken off him he lunged two footed studs showing and didn't get near the ball. If he'd have made contact it would have been nasty.

county

posts all over the place:eek:

okden

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

Accumulation will get you a yellow not a red, probably the reason that it is not an option.

he was going to get a yellow for accumilation when the ref finaly stopped the advantage play.
then he runs 40 yards and fouls messi, so he got a red for intent. but the intent was built by accumilation and then another foul = dangerous play. perhaps it would have been easier if he gave a 2 yellows. but mourinho would have gone gaga.

sprinkles

Del Horno deserved to be booked for 2 previous tackles which would have seen him sent off before this.

It is plainly obvious that he was not going for the ball as the ball was along the ground and del horno has leaped into the challenge, feet off the ground with no chance what so ever of gettign the ball. Then as soon as he realised he wa sin trouble he starts rolling around...then messi follows suit. Both players should receive a fine for theatrics but in the end justice was served.

Straight red seemed harsh at the time but susequent replays showed the intent Del horno had. Every time I see the tackle I think it would have been so easy for messi to have his leg broken. A dangerous and unacceptable "lunge".

Even if you don't agre with the straight red then you must agree that Del Horno deserved a yellow, not only for that but for his earlier tackles which would have seem him dismissed in any case. As I said Justice was served.

segadreamcast

super_furry wrote:

Thing is, I think he realised his mistake at half-time and tried to 'level things up' because in the second half he gave absolutly EVERYTHING Chelsea's way. Barca were denied a stonewall penalty when Terry not only ploughed into a Barca player (can't remember which one) in the box, but then grabbed the ball with his hands while on the ground despite no whistle being blown.

Bingo. Bottom line - these things happen in football, shame on Mourinho for trying to sway talk of the game towards this "controversial" incident as opposed to talking about Chelsea's very real flaws that have been exposed by a better team. As RTE said last night - real football won last night.

sprinkles

Just one more point on the debacle, the mimiking of waving the card by certain Barca players before the ref gave the red was disgracefull and should be stamped out of the game.

for professional athletes all of their attitudes to the game should be questioned. Diving, rolling around on the ground (which by the way if they were actually hurt they would not be doing...it seems ridiculous) and the waving of cards to the ref should be foremost on the list of things for FIFA to sort out and not messing around with the bloddy offside rule every week.

theCzar

Definite red, Del Horno hit messi like an cannon ball with the intent to injure, then rolled to try and make it look like a 50-50 collison. As for Messi, it looked cynical but then he just got blasted, no sense in putting a brave face on it.

Comparing Robben's disgrace to Messi's rolling is ridiculous. There's a difference between "making the most of" and just inventing an attack.

These things balance themselves out anyway, since Barca should have had a peno for Terry's challenge.

I'll put up with rolling when Messi can entertain me like he last night. Can't wait for next leg, or for the world cup.

Mourinho was talking rubbish as usual, but that's his perogative. Chelsea and indeed the premier league, were shown up for what it is last night by a stunning exhibition of the beautiful game.

CountryWise

"Chelsea and indeed the premier league, were shown up for what it is last night by a stunning exhibition of the beautiful game"

I think most would agree with this statement although i still dont think Barcelona have been tested, when robben got at them early in he second they looked vulnerable

Big Nelly

theCzar wrote:

Definite red, Del Horno hit messi like an cannon ball with the intent to injure, then rolled to try and make it look like a 50-50 collison. As for Messi, it looked cynical but then he just got blasted, no sense in putting a brave face on it.

Comparing Robben's disgrace to Messi's rolling is ridiculous. There's a difference between "making the most of" and just inventing an attack.

These things balance themselves out anyway, since Barca should have had a peno for Terry's challenge.

I'll put up with rolling when Messi can entertain me like he last night. Can't wait for next leg, or for the world cup.

Mourinho was talking rubbish as usual, but that's his perogative. Chelsea and indeed the premier league, were shown up for what it is last night by a stunning exhibition of the beautiful game.

Trouble is I dont want to have to put up with players rooling around the pitch, its a joke and if UEFA have any b*lls they should ban Messi for the carry on, might stamp it out of the game. Sick of it to be honest, for refence to what "it" is loke at this

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7045842692422634666&q=soccer+am

One with mophead from Arsenal was better but cant find link anywhere

Ruskie4Rent

On the chelsea website it has 54% agreeing with the ref. That's funny!

theCzar

Big Nelly wrote:

Trouble is I dont want to have to put up with players rooling around the pitch, its a joke and if UEFA have any b*lls they should ban Messi for the carry on, might stamp it out of the game. Sick of it to be honest, for refence to what "it" is loke at this

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7045842692422634666&q=soccer+am

One with mophead from Arsenal was better but cant find link anywhere

lol the video, but to be argumentative for a minute (I think I'm in the right place) If you were getting your breath back after a collision, and ball materialised in front of you, wouldn't you have found the breath to make a shot at it? The Lehman is better though (the one where he falls down, jumps to complain then collapses again?).

back to Messi, you can't ban him for rolling, pure and simple. I don't understand how you can so angry with him when he was clearly fouled. There's a lot of cynicism in the game, and the card waving is bad sportsmanship but maybe the world needs to wake up to the fact that in the professional world of modern soccer, refereeing decisions swings millions of pounds one way or the other, so goodwill needs to be left in the school yard and sunday league.

It's not pleasant, but if you want to go back to old days, tough, it ain't gonna happen. There are yellow cards for diving and it hasn't done a thing and frankly I don't trust a disciplinary board to examine video evidence impartially either.

Thanx 4 The Fish

If Messi were to be banned for rolling does that also follow that after his ban for the red card ADH will get banned for rolling around too ? The only fair result surely. ADH was trying to trick the referee by going down and rolling (ala Essien, must be taught in the training ground) after catching somebody.

Necronomicon

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

ADH was trying to trick the referee by going down and rolling (ala Essien, must be taught in the training ground) after catching somebody.

Beat me to it, it was as soon as I saw Del Horno roll around my mind went back to the Bolton game when Essien rolled around after that horrific tackle on Ben Haim. Have to disagree Nelly, if you're going to ban Messi for rolling around, then you have to start dishing out bans all over the world, because it happens all the time. I don't know how Mourinho could complain so much after what Robben did a few weeks back against Liverpool.

BaZmO*

Necromomicon wrote:

I don't know how Mourinho could complain so much after what Robben did a few weeks back against Liverpool.

Because he is the Special One. A position that comes with having the God given right to contradict yourself on a weekly basis.

scuba steve

i thought it was a yellow and thats it. It looked like both players were afraid to challenge for the ball and were trying to get out of the way, but ran into each other. Maybe a yellow for Messi too for rolling around like a looder, maybe ref thought Del Horno was acting a fool rolling so gave a red

deadduck

redspider wrote:

However, Del Horno's acting afterwards was diabolical. For that I would have given him a yellow just for the bad acting. It is a rule that you can get a yellow for diving and playacting, which is what Del Horno did, so I dont think any Chelsea fans can say that a Red was completely out of order.

redspider

simple as that, yellow for the tackle, yellow for the acting. noone should argue with that (but probably will)

~Rebel~

First off, its probably very fair to say that regardless whether it should have been a red or yellow, everyone should agree that Del Horno should have been off the pitch either way after previous fouls (particularly the one on Messi's knee that went out for a chelsea throw) and so either way, justice is done, Barca would still have gone on to play a 10 man team and the result = the same.

For the tackle itself, definate yellow verging on red, depending entirely on the ref. Some would give it, some would not. When they have to make the split second decision, i think its fair to say that the ref would presume that a defender in one of the best teams in the world will not "wimp out" of a chance to win the ball and instead collide with the opponant. It should be a given that he either tried to get the ball or activly didn't try to get the ball in favour of hitting the man. Now. If you were to put yourself in Del Horno's exact position (for those who play), and the ball is slowly rolling to your left hand side having run slightly on from the attacker, you stick a leg out and its out for a corner. Simple. Probably still collide but its something that will happen thousands of times in a defenders career. Del Horno didn't really try and play the ball, and jumped into Messi. In reality a player would have the ball in his mind first, player second, and wouldn't even have time to get his body into the position he had it in and instead just collide naturally.

From ref's POV, i'd accept either decision anyway, but dont think it was stonewall red, just stupid and rash from del horno.

Pepe LeFrits

The foul itself was only a yellow, but he was deservedly sent off. He committed two yellow-card worthy tackles in that sequence alone, came down on Messi's knee with studs earlieir (how that wasn't at least a booking I don't know), and made himself look like an idiot by feigning injury. Ref should have flashed two quick yellows and then the red.

super_furry

super_furry wrote:

It was a foul that deserved a yellow, a red was too harsh. Del Horno jumped over the ball and into Messi but I don't think it was Messi's reaction that got him sent off, more the referee's position.

yes had he had a clean slate (i dunno if he was booked at that point) a red was way OTT, however Del Horno acted the maggot through periods of that match in my opinion. minutes earlier he caught messi with a dangerous high foot. he did win the ball but your foot should not be that high. the follow through was pretty malicious. he was having a go at the linesman too minutes earlier. it was a catalog of things. in fairness messi did make a meal of the sending off....but so did ADH. anyways barcelona were the better team id say even if chelsea had 12 on the pitch they would have been 2nd best

cournioni

Del Horno should have been booked (at least) for his knee high tackle on Messi minutes beforehand, the sending off itself was a yellow card offence.

Two yellows = Red.

adeypius

red card - yes

blu_sonic

i think jose was whinging, i think he just can't take a beating

okden

"I feel it is important to see the situation live.

"When you see it in slow motion, you can be fooled by how he (del Horno) got into the situation.

"It was a wild challenge and he went in at such pace that he was not in control. I had no option. I saw it straight away as a red card. It was nothing to do with the reaction. I had made my decision. I thought it was a red card when it happened. The Chelsea player came in at high speed and it didn't look like he came in with any focus on the ball.

"The assistant referee and myself agreed it was a red card. We both had made our minds up as soon as we saw it. It had nothing to do with the reaction of any of the other players.

"I understand that people will look at it and say that it was just a yellow, although others will agree with me. That's up for discussion. But I felt it was a red card at that time."

so you had to be there, it was worthy of a red card, but were allowed discuss it

jesus_thats_gre

Red Card.. Del Horno knee capped Messi 10 minutes before and should have got booked for it..

Then he tackles Messi by jumping over the ball, swinging his foot after he passed the ball and bounces into Messi.

The Clown Man

If it was Bolton V Man City it would have been a yellow.

And everyone here would agree that it was a very bloody harsh sending off. Clumsy as hell but not malicious.

But it's Chelsea. And everyone wants to see Chelsea lose and Mourinho proven wrong. It's a pity that the Robben incident happened because that has blinded most people in seeing the challenge for what it actually was. I just think Essien was blessed becuase it wasn't him. He can be a bloody clumsy oaf when he wants but hes already been crusified for it.

Thanx 4 The Fish

I think the problem is not that he has done it once as far as Essien is concerned, it is that he did it and got away with it, then went in and did it again.

As regards just because it's chelsea, get real will you, read back over the Bolton Arsenal thread, there was blood being bayed for there for two challenges that if they had connected could have ended careers, just as this one could have, when it happens football fans will not like it regardless if it is somebody on their team that has done it or somebody on the oppo.

growler

Deleted User wrote:

yes had he had a clean slate (i dunno if he was booked at that point) a red was way OTT, however Del Horno acted the maggot through periods of that match in my opinion. minutes earlier he caught messi with a dangerous high foot. he did win the ball but your foot should not be that high. the follow through was pretty malicious. he was having a go at the linesman too minutes earlier. it was a catalog of things. in fairness messi did make a meal of the sending off....but so did ADH.


anyways barcelona were the better team id say even if chelsea had 12 on the pitch they would have been 2nd best

what you my have done earlier in the game should not be a contributing factor to a straight red card, arguing with the linesman doesn't have any bearing on it either.

Barcelona the better team even if Chelsea had 12 , LMAO, get real, very unbiased of you.

Ruskie4Rent

The ball was a good bit away from where del horno made the challenge so there is no doubt that the foul was aimed to get messi. That is by far worse than any rolling around in my opinion. I've seen people gatting sent off for much less and have listened to far less moaning as a result.

okden

jose mourinho post match interview
(mario rosenstock podcast from thesun.co.uk)

blu_sonic

i think it was also because of the player he "challenged" messi had been causing a lot of problems to them and just prior to the incident has made a fool of the lad, so the ref may have read into it as intent to cause injury

YeatsCounty

Putting Del Horno's two atrocious "tackles" together, then yes, he definitely deserved to be sent off. Football doesn't work like that though. He wasn't booked for lashing at Messi's knee with his studs, and I don't think that his second challenge on Messi was a straight red card. A yellow? Certainly. Can't say I was all that sad to see him go though.

PHB

Did his tackle deserve a red? No,
Was it an injustice to Chelsea or Del Horno? No. He deserved to be sent off