B/B Comparision - Smart Still the Best Deal.

replytohere2004

I'm on Smart Telecom atm and I was just looking around to see what my B/B options and I have to say Smart is certainly the best deal, for me anyway. Eircom are nearly as bad as those guys who put the fasle covers on the ATM machines and take your money.
It will be interesting to see what NTL's upgrades will be. I think I would perfer NTL as I don't use a LandLine. Although, an extra €20/€30 for TV isn't for me either, esp when most of the TV channels are free these days.
It bamboozles me why Irish people are prepared to pay hundreds of euro for tv when they could get most of the channels free.
I suppose at €35 pm for Smarts 3mb/256k it dosn't matter about the line rental as it's so cheap.
Anybody got any news on the NTL upgrade?
It wouldn't supprise me if Smart upgrade their speed again if NTL increase their rates significantly.:)

Smart (Free Line Rental - Eircom Line Req/No DlL Caps/No Contention/Free Modem/Free Connection) (3Mb/256k at the moment - other packages coming in March)
3Mb/256k €35
4Mb/384k €45
5Mb/512k €55
6Mb/512k €65

NTL (First 3 mths Free/No Phone Line Req/Must Have Basic Cable TV €19.99pm - First Year Free(€5-€10 extra for Digital TV) Free Modem/Newsgroups)
1mb/100k €24.99 (€44.98 inc Cable - 1st Yr Free) 16GB 17:1 (Select Digital €5 Extra PM 50 Channels/Go Digital €10 - 100 Channells)
2mb/200k €29.99 (€49.98 inc Cable - 1st Yr Free) 30GB 17:1
3mb/300k €39.99 (€59.98 inc Cable - 1st Yr Free) 40GB 17:1

IBB (No Phone Line Req/No D/L Caps/Free Connection)
512/128k €18.95 40:1 No Contract
1Mb/1Mb €35.99 48:1 1 Year
2Mb/2Mb €48.40 24:1 Contract

Eircom (€24.18 Line Rental Applies/Eircom Line Req - Install Fees: InSitu or Pre-Cabled=Free Otherwise €121.93/Free B/BConnection if ordered online, otherwise €29.99)
1Mb/128k €19.99 (€44.17 inc LR) 48:1 20hrs PM/4c per min thereafter;up to €30- Free thereafter.
1Mb/128k €29.99 (€54.18 inc LR) 48:1 10GB/1GB up
2Mb/256k €39.99 (€64.18 inc LR) 24:1 20GB/Unlimited
3Mb/384k €54.45 (€78.63 inc LR) 24:1 30GB/Unlimited

BT (Phone Line Req/€40 Connection applies or Free if transfering from another ISP + don't require modem, 6month Contract)
1Mb/128k €20 or €35 with LR 10GB
2Mb/256k €30 or €40 with LR 20GB
3Mb/384k €40 or €50 with LR 30GB

paulm17781

IF NTL do upgrade to the rumoured speeds. Very few operators will be able to keep up with them. Smart and Magnet would be the only ones who could try but the distance factors, line quality and contention would most likely prevent them.

Blaster99

Contention? I think you're getting confused now. NTL's customers will be the ones to suffer contention, if there's any contention to be suffered. I would be surprised if NTL can (or will) deliver 10Mbps consistently and reliably, but we'll see.

There's nothing stopping eircom from "trying" either and hopefully they will do something to counter any NTL moves. Significantly many more can technically avail of high speed ADSL than can get NTL's broadband service in any shape or form, to put this into perspective.

As we've discovered before, it's pretty difficult to make a reasonable comparison. Those who believe that paying NTL €20 a month for largely free TV in crappy analogue format is a good deal tend to favour NTL's broadband, if it is available which is a big if. Even NTL Digital lags behind Sky Digital in most aspects, never mind the general flexibility of satellite where you get what's available, not what NTL decides to give you. Price, quality, Sky+, launch of HD, multi-screen viewing, easy access to free channels. The only thing I can think of in NTL's favour is that they provide Ch4 out of the box.

Anyways, been there, done that, made my point.

paulm17781

No dear I'm not getting confused. Despite what Smart say about no contention, I can imagine them running into this trouble with backhaul before NTL would. I'm not sure where your hatred of NTL comes from but they have been running a smooth 3Mb service for a long time, from what I have read here, Eircom and resellers are having difficulty doing this, that is called contention.

Now I'm not getting into the TV arguement again as I find it tedious, Eircom can not compete with NTL on speed, ADSL 1 can not compete with DOCSIS 2.

Blaster99

It would be handy if you understood the difference between maximum point to point speed and maximum sector bandwidth and how contention works in those two cases. I'm sure bk can do the details, but if I recall DOCSIS 1.0, 1.1, and 2.0 has 40Mbps downstream channels and DOCSIS 2.0 has improved upstream channel speed (30Mbps I believe). So unless I'm mistaken, DOCSIS 2.0 does not improve downstream performance. That's what DOCSIS 3.0 will do with channel bonding, but that's not going to make a major difference as you will still be sharing out the available bandwidth, whether it's bonded or not. But these speeds are theoretical as they are contended. With proper planning and a cable network built to deal with broadband from day one, this can be dealt with. I don't think 3Mbps combined with fairly low takeup proves all that much, but let's hope it works out.

The problem is not the backhaul for any real ISP, by the way.

paulm17781

Yeah you are right about DOCSIS 2.0, my bad. None the less, NTL claim to have the lowest contention packages, I have no reason to doubt them. As for low take up, where available NTL have a higher ratio of subscribers than Eircom generally do, they also provide better services.

I am well aware of the differences between maximum point to point speed and maximum sector bandwidth however I believe the Eircom family are all currently suffering from not having enough bandwidth.

Anyhoo, I'm not here to have this old argument with you. The OP asked about best value and I was adding some input. Theoretically Eircom can not compete with NTLs packages and I would be surprised if Smart can.


EDIT: looking at the OP. Currently Smart have the best deal at the mo'. Are they offering above 3Mb yet?

Blaster99

The new Smart packages can be ordered in March, I believe.

Theoretically eircom can exceed NTL's speeds, by the way. I doubt they will for marketing reasons but hopefully NTL will put a bit of pressure on them. Eircom can stifle the LLU competition quite successfully, but there's nothing can they do about NTL.

paulm17781

Blaster99 wrote:

Theoretically eircom can exceed NTL's speeds.

ADSL 1 max speed is 8mb. NTL plan to offer 10mb.

replytohere2004

paulm17781 wrote:

EDIT: looking at the OP. Currently Smart have the best deal at the mo'. Are they offering above 3Mb yet?

Yeah everyone has the 3Mb/256k. We were on 6Mb/512k from Dec 15 to Feb 15.
Personally I won't be upgrading. If they offered a 1Mb up I would consider it.

Blaster99

paulm17781 wrote:

ADSL 1 max speed is 8mb. NTL plan to offer 10mb.

ADSL2+ is only a firmware upgrade away.

replytohere2004 wrote:

If they offered a 1Mb up I would consider it.

Yeah 1Mbps up would be sweet. This throttling of the upload speed is a bit annoying.

bk

EuroDOCSIS 2 supports 51 Mbit/s downstream and up to 30.72 Mbit/s upstream. Of course this is shared, with the users on your segment of the local node.

I do believe NTL will be able to do 10Mbit/s consistently. Yes there may be a few people in some areas that will have problems, but even at that they will probably be getting 6 - 8 Mbit/s. Remember that night when all the NTL users accidentally got 10Mbit/s, we all tried to download the entire internet that evening to try it out, yet nearly everyone was reporting speeds at about 9+Mbit/s

In the US, cablecos are delivering speeds of 15Mbit/s using DOCSIS 2 without any major difficulties.

I do believe that Eircom are going to have major difficulty in competing with cable. ADSL maxs out at 8Mbit/s and realistically most people will only get much lower speeds due to distance.

The problem that Eircom face is that upgrading to ADSL2+ isn't going to be just a firmware upgrade, it is going to be a major, expensive exercise. They are going to have to replace all the ADSL line cards with ADSL2+ line cards in all the exchanges and also replace all 200,000 customer modems with ADSL2+ capable models. This work is going to cost an awful lot of money and time. I think that Eircom is going to be slow in making this investment, there are going to want to milk ADSL for at least another year, probably 2, before they upgrade. Instead Eircom will hope that people will just be too lazy too move from them and fight using marketing rather then speeds or product quality.

BTW DOCSIS 3 is going to make a massive difference. Even if it is still shared, I don't think I'd mind sharing potentially 5Gbit/s with 400 other people

Contention isn't actually a bad thing, the reality is that the entire Internet is contended. As long as it is correctly managed, contention on DOCSIS 3 will be able to give you speeds far in advance of anything possible on DSL and in fact, equivalent or even faster then affordable fibre (FTTH).

Either way I suppose we will just have to wait and see.

paulm17781

Blaster99 wrote:

ADSL2+ is only a firmware upgrade away.

Meanwhile in the real world Eircom offer ADSL 1 which can not match NTLs theoretical maximum. If we are going to play the "down the line" game Co-ax will still win over telephone wire higher bandwidth etc.

Honestly, what is your problem with NTL? If Eircom were to offer superior services to NTL I would praise them and probably go back to them but they don't. Infact the only operator who I think realistiacally competes with NTL is Smart, competition in this case is dependant on your TV options / desire. As BK said down the line cable seems the most likely option (other than fibre). You seem to be determined to rubbish NTL, is there any reason for this?

kaizersoze

I don't want to get drawn into the cable v copper argument, but....

bk wrote:

The problem that Eircom face is that upgrading to ADSL2+ isn't going to be just a firmware upgrade, it is going to be a major, expensive exercise. They are going to have to replace all the ADSL line cards with ADSL2+ line cards in all the exchanges and also replace all 200,000 customer modems with ADSL2+ capable models.

Eircom and the other resellers have been supplying ADSL2+ modems for the past year (give or take). The older Netopia models just require a firmware upgrade to make them compatable. The only ones that may need to be replaced are the older USB modems (Alcatel etc.).
The 200,000 customers you're referring to aren't all Eircoms. It will be up to the resellers to look after their own.
AFAIK Eircom have long since begun to upgrade the exchanges with the new gear and all the new exchanges comming onstream will have it.
I agree with you that cable has the advantage over copper with regard to speed, but where it falls down for me is it's non-availability outside major cities. Smart aswell for the same reason.

dub45

I notice nobody has mentioned line quality - one of the things that surprised me from the Smart experiment was how bad my line is having previously thought it was fine. Irrespective of the speeds that Eircom may offer in the future surely the biggest hindrance will be line quality no?

bk

kaizersoze wrote:

Eircom and the other resellers have been supplying ADSL2+ modems for the past year (give or take). The older Netopia models just require a firmware upgrade to make them compatable. The only ones that may need to be replaced are the older USB modems (Alcatel etc.).
The 200,000 customers you're referring to aren't all Eircoms. It will be up to the resellers to look after their own.
AFAIK Eircom have long since begun to upgrade the exchanges with the new gear and all the new exchanges comming onstream will have it.
I agree with you that cable has the advantage over copper with regard to speed, but where it falls down for me is it's non-availability outside major cities. Smart aswell for the same reason.

Yes, that is true, but it still leaves well over 100,000 customers with the older ADSL 1 modems to be replaced. Just look at how long it took NTL to replace the DOCSIS 1 modems, and there couldn't have been more then 2000 of them. Also getting customers to firmware upgrade their existing modems is going to be a support nightmare, unless Eircom can do it remotely.

BTW Eircom has well over 80% of all ADSL connections, so it isn't worth talking about the other bitsream operators.

kaizersoze

bk wrote:

Yes, that is true, but it still leaves well over 100,000 customers with the older ADSL 1 modems to be replaced. Just look at how long it took NTL to replace the DOCSIS 1 modems, and there couldn't have been more then 2000 of them. Also getting customers to firmware upgrade their existing modems is going to be a support nightmare, unless Eircom can do it remotely.

BTW Eircom has well over 80% of all ADSL connections, so it isn't worth talking about the other bitsream operators.

Well 100,000 is still half your original figure:p .
BT have around 35,000. I don't know about UTV and the rest but as you say Eircom would have the lions share. I still don't think there would be that many very old modems out there.
Didn't NTL's modem change require an engineer to call out as opposed to popping it in the post?

Blaster99

How many DOCSIS 2 channels can NTL run on a loop, i.e what's the total bandwidth available? I presume this to some extent depends on plant noise, but a rough guess.

redspider

Quick question guys, maybe its been asked before, in a FAQ somewhere
or at Ireland Offline or some other consumer-friendly site:

I'm in Dublin and currently paying for:

bb 2mb/256 - u.tv - eur 30 pm
line rental - eircom - eur 24 or so pm
tv - NTL basic - eur 20 pm
voice - u.tv (part of bb deal), telestunt, skype - pay per use
(I'll keep mobile/wi-fi out of this)


Its high-time I set myself up with a better deal, but does anyone
know of a source where this has been researched, where prices
for options have been analysed and where its updated?

Smart at 35 with line rental included is obviously a saving.
Magnet have a couple of bundles although when asked they
said that line rental was included in their price but I have recently
seen that in small print on their website that eur 24 for line rental
is mentioned so presumably extra.
BT also are an option.

For TV I expect the options are outside aerial (less on offer I expect)
BBC Freeview/Freesat or whatever its called, etc and
remaining with NTL Basic or getting Magnet.

Obviously for many people there are personal requirements for TV so
there is no single right answer.

I am located in Dublin with access to all of those providers.

Any hints or analysis/price comparison welcome.
Even letting me know what costs you are on might be a help.

Thanks,

redspider

Blaster99

Can you get Smart or NTL? If so, one of them will do the best BB deal. With NTL you can drop your phone line and go VoIP, which will typically save you some money if you're making a lot of landline calls.

NTL's analogue service... can you install a satellite dish? If so, you'll get plenty of digital channels from Sky for the same price, except Ch4. You can also with a bit of work install an FTV system that gives you all the British terrestrials for free. There's a satellite forum for this type of stuff.

Some people get a lot of value out of UTV's free national/UK evening calls. If you're not, BT Ireland's BB/line rental bundles will give you a lot better value.

paulm17781

Redspider, this is an eternal debate here.

My opinion of good value is my set up.

NTL BB Max (39.99)
NTL Analogue & Digital TV (29.50)
http://www.blueface.ie VOIP 5hrs free calls. (10)

This is perfect for me as I live in an apartment (no dish) and have had bad experiences with phone based DSL. I had the digital TV anyway. So I got better BB and phone services for less than I was paying previously.

Another good set up would be Smart with a free satellite service. I've never looked into this as I can't put a dish up. You can also get cheaper NTL packages that is just my set up which is perfect for my current living arrangement.

redspider

Blaster99 wrote:

Can you get Smart or NTL? If so, one of them will do the best BB deal. With NTL you can drop your phone line and go VoIP, which will typically save you some money if you're making a lot of landline calls.

NTL's analogue service... can you install a satellite dish? If so, you'll get plenty of digital channels from Sky for the same price, except Ch4. You can also with a bit of work install an FTV system that gives you all the British terrestrials for free. There's a satellite forum for this type of stuff.

Some people get a lot of value out of UTV's free national/UK evening calls. If you're not, BT Ireland's BB/line rental bundles will give you a lot better value.

Yes, I have the option of getting Smart or NTL and will be analysing them. Up until recently (last 6 months or so), NTL did not have a BB service in my area. Smart's line rental/bb bundle seems to be around the same price as BT's.

Btw, it says that in early 2006, callcosts.ie will allow comparisons of phone line and broadband, so that may be something to watch.

I'll do some analysis and post it here.

thanks for your help ....

redspider

kaizersoze

redspider wrote:

Smart's line rental/bb bundle seems to be the same price as BT's.

Same price alright but different speeds.
Smart BB is €35 for 3mb down/256 up.
Where as BT's €35 product is 1mb down/ 128 up.

redspider

paulm17781 wrote:

Redspider, this is an eternal debate here.

My opinion of good value is my set up.

NTL BB Max (39.99)
NTL Analogue & Digital TV (29.50)
http://www.blueface.ie VOIP 5hrs free calls. (10)

This is perfect for me as I live in an apartment (no dish) and have had bad experiences with phone based DSL. I had the digital TV anyway. So I got better BB and phone services for less than I was paying previously.

Another good set up would be Smart with a free satellite service. I've never looked into this as I can't put a dish up. You can also get cheaper NTL packages that is just my set up which is perfect for my current living arrangement.

Yes, the debate will rage on as we all have to be vigilant of watching whats available, etc. I re-assess the suppliers every 6 months or so. I'll look at a similar bundle to yours: NTL BB basic, NTL TV basic, VOIP blueface.

I guess the difficulty perceived by me and many others is to rid yourself of the "umbilical cord", ie: the telephone line. Its pschological more than anything else as it has been a mainstay of communications since the last century. Nostalgia shouldnt obscure our choices of course. In terms of putting all your eggs into the NTL basket, is another perception to overcome. Traditionally, I have not been a fan of NTL as they have milked the Irish consumers who are tied with lack of cable provider choic, they were a spin-off from eircom, lest we forget that, and they have dragged their heels in rolling out broadband and have gotten away with not meeting their committments. Its up to the individual if their morals adjust their decisions.

As you say, Smart with a freesat (FTV) is an option to compare.

What about Metro or Magnet for BB? Any thoughts on those ...

Btw, it says that in early 2006, callcosts.ie will allow comparisons of phone-line/voice and broadband, so that may be something to watch.

thanks for your response,

redspider

ps: people should not forget to use telestunt, see telestunt.ie
if you find it good value, pass it on to your friends. and I have
no affiliation with them by the way ....

redspider

kaizersoze wrote:

Same price alright but different speeds.
Smart BB is €35 for 3mb down/256 up.
Where as BT's €35 product is 1mb down/ 256 up.

Yeah, you're right. I'm aware there are differences in the specs of the services but I dont know them all in detail yet.

I'll set-up a spreadsheet and do an analysis and post it here - when I get
around to it.

Thanks,

redspider

bk

redspider wrote:

As you say, Smart with a freesat (FTV) is an option to compare.

What about Metro or Magnet for BB? Any thoughts on those ...

Btw, it says that in early 2006, callcosts.ie will allow comparisons of phone-line/voice and broadband, so that may be something to watch.

callcosts.ie is fairly useless I wouldn't bother with it.

Metro seems to be good, but personally I don't trust wireless BB, I'd try for wired BB first.

Magnet would be ok for BB, but their TV service hasn't been getting good reviews and would be inferior to NTL Digital or Sky.

NTL and Smart are by far the best BB providers in Ireland with the best prices and packages.

If you already have or want to get NTL for TV, then their BB products are by far the best.

If you have or want Sky satellite or FTA sat, then Smart may be the better option.

Of course this may all change in the next few weeks if NTL increase speeds/drop prices.

Which is best depends on what you need and what is available in your area.

replytohere2004

Smart Phone Line Req; 1year Contract; Free Connection
Free Line Rental No DlL Caps; No Contention; Free Modem
3Mb/256k €35
4Mb/384k €45
5Mb/512k €55
6Mb/512k €65

NTL No Phone Line Req; 1 Year Contract; Free B/B Connection ; TV Connection Needed - €50 for Re-Connection or €100 First Time.
First 3 mths Free; Must Have Basic Cable TV €19.99pm - First Year Free(€5-€10 extra for Digital TV) Free Modem; Newsgroups
1Mb/100k €24.99 (€44.98 inc Cable - 1st Yr Free) 16GB 17:1 (Select Digital €5 Extra PM 50 Channels/Go Digital €10 - 100 Channells)
2mb/200k €29.99 (€49.98 inc Cable - 1st Yr Free) 30GB 17:1
3mb/300k €39.99 (€59.98 inc Cable - 1st Yr Free) 40GB 17:1

Magnet Phone Line Req; Free Connection; 6Mth Contract 1mth thereafter
Caps Not Carried Foward; U/L Speed same as D/L Speed if in FTTH Area)
4Mb/512k €28 (€52 inc LR) 100GB 50c Per GB thereafter. 60 TV Channels: €25 exrta
4Mb/512k €38 (€62 inc LR) 100GB 50c Per GB thereafter. Free Anytime Land Loc/Nat Calls - max 60mins. 60 TV Channels: €25 exrta
8Mb/512k €59 (€83 inc LR) 150GB 50c Per GB Thereafter. Free Calls as above. Inc 30 TV Channels, 60 Channels:€10 extra


IBB (Wireless)No Phone Line Req; 1 Year Contract; Free Connection;
No D/L Caps
512/128k €18.95 40:1 (No Contract)
1Mb/1Mb €35.99 48:1
2Mb/2Mb €48.40 24:1

DigiWeb
Metro (Wireless,No Eircom Line Req,Number Porting €55
3Mb/512k €42.35 (inc LR) 30GB 40:1
4Mb/1Mb €108.90 (inc LR) 60GB 20:1
6Mb/2Mb €301.29 (inc LR) 120GB 10:1
DSL (Phone Line Req)
2Mb/? €29.95 (€53.95 inc LR) 20GB
3Mb/? €42.35 (€66.35 inc LR) 40GB
4Mb/? €96.80 (€120.80 inc LR) 100GB
5Mb/? €181.50 (€205.50 inc LR) 100GB
Wireless (No Phone Line Req; €89.66 install Fee)
512k/128k €35.00 10GB 36:1
512k/256k €47.19 20GB 18:1
1Mb/512k €95.59 No Limit 18:1
2Mb/1Mb €175.45 No Limit 10:1


Eircom Phone Line Req/Install Fees: InSitu or Pre-Cabled=Free Otherwise €121.93/Free B/BConnection if ordered online, otherwise €29.99)
1Mb/128k €19.99 (€44.17 inc LR) 48:1 20hrs PM/4c per min thereafter;up to €30- Free thereafter.
1Mb/128k €29.99 (€54.17 inc LR) 48:1 10GB/1GB up
2Mb/256k €39.99 (€64.17 inc LR) 24:1 20GB/Unlimited
3Mb/384k €54.45 (€78.64 inc LR) 24:1 30GB/Unlimited

BT Phone Line Req; 6 mth Contract; €40 Connection - Free if transfering from another ISP
1Mb/128k €20 or €35 with LR 10GB
2Mb/256k €30 or €40 with LR 20GB
3Mb/384k €40 or €50 with LR 30GB

RTÉ PDF here:
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/thebusiness/broadband.pdf

bk

FYI I believe that NTL has reduced the contract to 6 months. Also they will normally connect/reconnect you for free (saves €100/€50) if you are signing up for BB.

positron

What would be the best package for someone outside Dublin? May be that’s a new section for the comparison?

For instance, I am in Drogheda, and there’s no Metro, Smart, Magnet or NTL there – I am trying to compare between Esat BT, Eircom and Digiweb – from the table above I think I will go with Esat BT (with line rental).

Thanks anyway – very useful thread!

BCB

When is Ireland going to fall into line with the majority of Europe as regards Broadband,it's pathetic:(

bk

positron wrote:

What would be the best package for someone outside Dublin? May be that’s a new section for the comparison?

For instance, I am in Drogheda, and there’s no Metro, Smart, Magnet or NTL there – I am trying to compare between Esat BT, Eircom and Digiweb – from the table above I think I will go with Esat BT (with line rental).

Thanks anyway – very useful thread!

Of the Bitstream operators (Eircom, BT, UTV, etc.) BT including line rental is by far the best package.

BTW Metro, Smart, Magnet, NTL (including Chorus) are all available in areas (usually urban areas like Cork) outside of Dublin.

kaizersoze

positron wrote:

What would be the best package for someone outside Dublin? May be that’s a new section for the comparison?

For instance, I am in Drogheda, and there’s no Metro, Smart, Magnet or NTL there – I am trying to compare between Esat BT, Eircom and Digiweb – from the table above I think I will go with Esat BT (with line rental).

Thanks anyway – very useful thread!

The Eircom v BT comparison is easy.
BT
2mb BB incl. line rental is €40p/m
Eircom
2mb BB incl. line rental is €64.17p/m
Are those Digiweb prices up to date? They don't seem to have updated the website to reflect the new speeds??
The RTE PDF in the link is Nov '05 so the prices and speeds are way out of date.