Electricity

Tazz T

Just got my electricity bill today 275 euro for a 2 bd apt - my highest bill ever - mostly due to those crap storage heating that keeps the place warm while you're at work, but due in a big way to the governments inability to encourage competition. Just five years ago, my equivalent bill in the UK where there's real competition was 75 euro.

Airtricity is pulling out of the market, so where's all the competition that we were promised when they were hiking the prices a few years ago.

Needed a rant cos I can't afford to put anything in my holiday fund this month thanks to this bill.

gerrycollins

what have you done to lower your bill firstly

Energy efficent lightbulbs?

Timers for night lights(not that you will need them in an apt)
setting on those storage heaters,if set right they can work perfectly,use them at night to "warm up"(when ESB is cheap) then they will dissapate the heat during the day

And dont forget the temp setting 2 degree change to 18 degree celcius can save you loads i had those heaters in a similar apt and my bills were never that high.

Have you checked the temp of your fridge,the colder you want it the more it uses set it at 3 and you will be fine

What about emersion heater?do u have an electric shower instead,an emersion heater is like a big kettle heater and can use about 1400kilo watts in an hour.if you have to use it set it to sink its good enough for showers anyways. otherwise buy a basic electric shower (triton TS90 no need for extra pump) about €250 and fit in about 2 hours save loads in the long run

do you leave things on over night?if the light is on its using electricity ie the little diode on the TV,DVD player,surround sound system and PC

at the end i do agree with you regarding competition but this is ireland and im sure that anyone that comes in will charge relatively the same as ESB look at BUPA vs VHI no difference IMO. It would take a few companies to come in to offer real competition like in the telephone and internet market but for such a small island can you see many coming in? Dont forget there is an election soon start writing all this down for when they come knocking at your door i know i am

parsi

Tazz T wrote:

Just got my electricity bill today 275 euro for a 2 bd apt - my highest bill ever - mostly due to those crap storage heating that keeps the place warm while you're at work, but due in a big way to the governments inability to encourage competition. Just five years ago, my equivalent bill in the UK where there's real competition was 75 euro.

What would your bill be now? Reports in the Uk papers regularly criticise the cost of electricity and increases..

Tazz T

gerrycollins wrote:

what have you done to lower your bill firstly

Energy efficent lightbulbs?

Got 'em.

Timers for night lights(not that you will need them in an apt)
setting on those storage heaters,if set right they can work perfectly,use them at night to "warm up"(when ESB is cheap) then they will dissapate the heat during the day

What night lights? Radiators are on 'Nightsaver' already.

And dont forget the temp setting 2 degree change to 18 degree celcius can save you loads i had those heaters in a similar apt and my bills were never that high.

Temperature rarely manages to get to 18 degrees. We have thermoneters throughout the house (for baby).

Have you checked the temp of your fridge,the colder you want it the more it uses set it at 3 and you will be fine

What about emersion heater?do u have an electric shower instead,an emersion heater is like a big kettle heater and can use about 1400kilo watts in an hour.if you have to use it set it to sink its good enough for showers anyways. otherwise buy a basic electric shower (triton TS90 no need for extra pump) about €250 and fit in about 2 hours save loads in the long run

This is a good idea.

do you leave things on over night?if the light is on its using electricity ie the little diode on the TV,DVD player,surround sound system and PC

We try to leave as little as possible on standby.

at the end i do agree with you regarding competition but this is ireland and im sure that anyone that comes in will charge relatively the same as ESB look at BUPA vs VHI no difference IMO. It would take a few companies to come in to offer real competition like in the telephone and internet market but for such a small island can you see many coming in? Dont forget there is an election soon start writing all this down for when they come knocking at your door i know i am

Agreed. It's just very frustrating that the government allowed all the price hikes before the energy increases to 'encourage' competition.

Tazz T

parsi wrote:

What would your bill be now? Reports in the Uk papers regularly criticise the cost of electricity and increases..

It certainly wouldn't have gone up by 100% every year. But the point is, there's still no competition here. When competition was introduced to the UK market, prices plummeted not just from the new entrant but the incumbent too.

parsi

Tazz T wrote:

Agreed. It's just very frustrating that the government allowed all the price hikes before the energy increases to 'encourage' competition.

The same thing happened with Directory Enquiries - they used be free butthen Telecom were made charge for them so that other compnaies could then come along and undercut them slightly in a form of competition. Of course this ignored the fact that we are now paying for something that used be free (and our line rental has goneup..)

deman

Tazz T wrote:

Just got my electricity bill today 275 euro for a 2 bd apt - my highest bill ever - mostly due to those crap storage heating that keeps the place warm while you're at work, but due in a big way to the governments inability to encourage competition.

Forgive my naivity but is that per month or bi-monthly or quarterly?

My Feb bill is €55, here in Finland, but that doesn't include heating. We have community heating here which is billed seperately.

edit- that's a 3 bedroom terraced house.

Tazz T

Bi-monthly.

byte

gerrycollins wrote:

What about emersion heater?do u have an electric shower instead,an emersion heater is like a big kettle heater and can use about 1400kilo watts in an hour.

1400kW? I would think it'd be more around 3-6kW? Unless I don't understand the context of your point.

gerrycollins

byte wrote:

1400kW? I would think it'd be more around 3-6kW? Unless I don't understand the context of your point.

if you look at an imersion heater it has two loops one half the size of the other these represent the settings of "sink" and "bath"
when set to sink the smaller is on and uses obviously hafl the energy of the full emersion.
the full on bath can use anything up to 6kW
in modern apartments space is a necessity so hot closets are smaller requiring smaller tanks so smaller imersions unless the developer fails to tell the local authority

gerrycollins

other energy saving ideas
when do you use household applainces such as washing machine,tumble dryers(especially a combi),dishwashers?
leave them till after 6 cheaper electricity(or later) but i guess this can be a problem with a child in the house
when i refer to night lights ,my wife likes a ligh in the hallway at night in case she has to get up etc so i have a 8w light overnight uses feck all energy

my last bill was in credit by €56 for a number of reasons.i regularly pay €50 a month into the bill (helps dull the pain when the bill comes in) but when my last one came in like yourself it was mental high. But noted that all reading were estimated i know that this makes no difference to what you eventuall pay but the bill before i read the meter my self was €77debit so over the course of 16 months i nearly paid ESB €133 for nothing,dunno if this is any help to you or can you personally check your meter(you never know)
again i repeat i agree totally with the lack of competition but if i remember correctly from my job airtricity were never really in the consumer side only business,a few peoples houses were less valusble than a business cause of loading

LFCFan

Tazz T wrote:

Airtricity is pulling out of the market

This is the second person to state this but I've heard nothing about them pulling out. In fact, the last I heard they were in the process of doubling their capacity in Ireland. Where did you hear this?

BendiBus

LFCFan wrote:

This is the second person to state this but I've heard nothing about them pulling out. In fact, the last I heard they were in the process of doubling their capacity in Ireland. Where did you hear this?

http://www.rte.ie/business/2006/0220/airtricity.html

kc66

gerrycollins- Is it not after 11pm the cheap rate of electricity starts. I think it is.
I heard something about Airtricity pulling out, but my father is with them and when he threatened to leave them they did their best to hold onto him. The head man even called out to the house. Why would they do this if they were definitely pulling out? This was only a couple of weeks ago.

Also see - http://www.rte.ie/business/2006/0111/airtricity.html

TheGrabbingHand

This cheap electricity at night thing.

Do you not need a second meter for this to work ie athe second meter would kick in at a crtain time and spin at a slower speed thus clocking up less units

slave1

[PHP]This cheap electricity at night thing.

Do you not need a second meter for this to work ie athe second meter would kick in at a crtain time and spin at a slower speed thus clocking up less units[/PHP]

You get the ESB to install a new meter in your house - assuming you don't already have a 2 rate meter.
Before you do this you must get a RECI to signoff the wiring of your house - I was having some storage heating installed at the same time.

You pay a higher rental charge for the benefit of having this meter.
You must commit to 12 month term at minimum.

Electricity cost drops to about 40% - look it up on the ESB website - from 11-8 in the "winter" ie NOW, and from 12-9 in the "summer"

dingding

gerrycollins wrote:

other energy saving ideas
when do you use household applainces such as washing machine,tumble dryers(especially a combi),dishwashers?
leave them till after 6 cheaper electricity

The Night rate is 11:00 pm to 8:00 am or 12:00 to 9:00 am depending on Summer or Winter time. Using appliances after this time assuming you have a day / night meter would probably save 20 to 30 euro a bill.

remember a couple of years ago they had to RAISE the price of electricity to make it more profitable for more competitors to enter the market.

Sparky

The type of meter that has to be installed is called a 'Night Saver'.
Most new houses will use this feature to avail of the cheaper cost if they use storage heating.
If you have storage heating more than 6kw, you will require a second meter, but this is highly unlikely in a residential house.
As a "sparks" myself, we have one installed and use it for the tumble dryer etc.

Set your storage heaters to Boost: 7-9 and Output to about 1-3, as you dont want the heat escaping too quickly. I dont know how many times I have see the output on full open.

As for energy saving. If you have a gas boiler etc, you should have a heat exchanger feeding your immersion cylinder, so no need to have the immersion switched on. Which is mostly a dual immersion. Sink=2kw Bath=3kw.
Energy saving bulbs now come in different shapes and sizes.
New to the market is the CFL candle bulb.

2D fittings, also know as Golf fittings (16watts) or Club (28watts) are available also. You may of seen these fittings before, in bathrooms and hallways.

If you are going to install an instant shower (triton or mira) make sure that it is backed up by a RCBO and that the main tails to your board are at least 10sq (16sq is the normal size). It is not advisable to have an instant shower running if your main board is fed with 6sq. The ESB wont allow it.
Also only one instant shower is allowed per house, unless a priority relay is installed, in which no two instant showers are on at the same time, because if they are, your mainfuse or esb service fuse will blow.

dts

Look at this report

Where's the Electricity competition?


Value Ireland Commentary - First Published February 20th, 2005

It appears to have been a very well-kept secret that on February 19th, 2005, it has become possible for you to choose who you buy your electricity from. On that date, not only will all businesses (irrespective of size) be able to choose their electricity supplier, but all home residential electricity customers will also be able to change their electricity supplier.

Irish residential electricity consumers will no longer be tied to the ESB and their regular price increases, including 4% at the beginning of 2005, quickly on the heals of a 9% increase in September last year.

In the same way that we recently began to choose alternative suppliers for our home telephone calls and benefit from competition in the market once dominated by Eircom, we should soon be able to receive the same benefit of competition in the home residential electricity market.

The Commission for Energy Regulation (CER) has the responsibility for introducing full competition to the electricity market in Ireland by 2005. The stated objective of the CER is to protect the interests of final customers, and therefore it is with this in mind that the electricity market is now, officially, fully open to competition.

But will we actually have that choice? Will there be any immediate benefit to the Irish residential consumer of this electricity market de-regulation?

The CER website informs consumers that there are 6 active independent electricity suppliers now operating in the Irish market. Add in the ESB, and there is the appearance of quite a choice for the consumer.

Value Ireland, in pursuit of it's aim to help Irish consumers make "better purchasing decisions through better information", contacted each of these 6 independent electricity suppliers to find out what benefits they'll be providing Irish residential electricity consumers from February 19th next. Here is what we found out.

Airtricty - www.airtricity.com
While confirming that at present, Airtricity supplies green electricity to over 35,000 small and medium sized companies in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland, they also informed Value Ireland that they have no immediate plans to enter into the Irish residential electricity market.
Update - April 17th, 2005 - It has been reported that Airtricity are now supplying electricity to domestic consumers. Their prices are exactly the same as the ESB. However, if you want your electricity to be from renewable resources (such as wind energy), then this would be a reason to change to Airtricity. For more, check their website - here.

Direct Independent Energy Limited - www.directindependentenergy.ie
Direct Independent Energy has confirmed to Value Ireland that they will not be entering the domestic electricity market in time for de-regulation. They also do not appear to have any timeframe for they intend to supply residential electricity customers.

Energia - www.energia.ie
Value Ireland has discovered that at present Energia have no plans to enter the domestic market. They did confirm that this may change "in the coming years".

ESB Independent Energy - www.esbie.ie
When contacted by Value Ireland, ESB Independent Energy (a separate entity from the ESB as we know it) confirmed that it does not plan to enter the home electricity market in 2005. The company plans on continuing to focus their attentions on the Industrial/Commercial Sector during this period.

Bord Gais Eireann - www.bordgais.ie
Bord Gais stated that they expected to be in a position to provide a full service to residential customers from next winter onwards. They say that they are finalising their tariff structures for residential customers at the moment.

CH Power - www.chpower.ie
CH Power was the only company contacted by Value Ireland that was even considering offering supply to residential consumers in the February 2005 time frame. They confirmed to Value Ireland that they will be offering % discounts to domestic users and that they "hope that this will come into effect from February 2005".

Not much choice there then. Of 6 possible competitors to the ESB, only one company "hopes" to be supply residential customers with electricity when the market opens in February 2005.

For residential customers therefore, it doesn't appear that the Commission for Energy Regulation has been entirely successful in "introducing full competition to the electricity market in Ireland by 2005". While there is competition evident in the business and commercial sector, it appears that the residential sector has been neglected completely - an evident failure on the part of the CER to introduce competition for the Irish residential consumer.

Despite the fact that there will be only one possible competitor to the ESB in the short-term, on a brighter note, for those that do want to change suppliers, the process appears to be relatively straight forward.

You start by signing a customer agreement with your newly selected supplier, and return this to them with a copy of your most recent electricity bill.

Your new electricity supplier should do the rest for you. They will send your details to the Meter Registration System Operator (MRSO) whose primary role is the provision of a central registration process and for the transfer of the responsibility of supply to you, the customer, from your old supplier to your newly chosen supplier.

The MRSO will inform your new supplier of the start date from which they must begin to supply your electricity - normally this will be from the point of your most recent meter read date.

Then, as a customer of your new supplier you will receive your bills from them depending on their own chosen billing cycle. You'll have nothing more to do with the ESB.

While it is positive to have such an easy process to help you switch suppliers, it is a let-down for the Irish consumer that despite all the possibilities of a de-regulated market, we still don't have much of a choice of suppliers to switch to. For the moment, www.valueireland.com will be updated with each company's offering as and when it is launched.




This stinks. We moved from the UK wher I used to pay 25 quid a month and always be in the black. My last bill was for 365 euro for a two month period. I thought that can not be right so I checked the meter, it wasnt right as we had used more than ESB had estermated. Rip off Ireland yet again!

rogue-entity

Sparky-s wrote:

Also only one instant shower is allowed per house, unless a priority relay is installed, in which no two instant showers are on at the same time, because if they are, your mainfuse or esb service fuse will blow.

This is not true. We have 4 electric showers. Three are upstairs and one is in the granny-flat. We also have a 16A Tumble dryer and a submersable water pump, all feed from the same single-phase 63A mains supply. The granny flat has a seperate fusebox, which is isolated by a main fuse before connecting directly to the meter. The tumble dryer is fed from the same ringmain as the sockets for the dishwasher and washing machine in the utility room.

All the showers are isolated by a 40A MCB. And we have never had any problems with two showers running at the same time. In theory a power-shower will draw up to 8KW when running, but this is the peak load at full power. Like I said, we have never had any problems, but then the 4 showers are never run at the same time anyway, so we get away with it.

Sparky

rogue-entity wrote:

This is not true. We have 4 electric showers. Three are upstairs and one is in the granny-flat. We also have a 16A Tumble dryer and a submersable water pump, all feed from the same single-phase 63A mains supply. The granny flat has a seperate fusebox, which is isolated by a main fuse before connecting directly to the meter. The tumble dryer is fed from the same ringmain as the sockets for the dishwasher and washing machine in the utility room.

All the showers are isolated by a 40A MCB. And we have never had any problems with two showers running at the same time. In theory a power-shower will draw up to 8KW when running, but this is the peak load at full power. Like I said, we have never had any problems, but then the 4 showers are never run at the same time anyway, so we get away with it.

You said yourself, you get away with it. If the esb knew they wouldn't allow it without relays installed.
The fact that you have 4 installed means that at any one time even if two of them were on, on hot at the same time, your service fuse would blow.
Plus I do hope that they are backed up by an RCD aswell (as you say its on a 40a MCB).

If your house was a new re-wire and the sparks stated that 4 instant showers were in the house (as they are classed as a fixed appliance), the ESB would either say, get some sort of priority relay installed, or get a 3 phase supply into the house.

dts

So do we know if there is anyone else to go to for lecki yet? Or are we still just stuck with ESB?

11.3 SECONDS

deman wrote:

Forgive my naivity but is that per month or bi-monthly or quarterly?

My Feb bill is €55, here in Finland, but that doesn't include heating. We have community heating here which is billed seperately.

edit- that's a 3 bedroom terraced house.

THAT'S IT DEMAN I am moving to Finland !! What are average house prices where you are ?

Dun na nGal

doesn't seem to be listed at the minute but e-bay did have domestic wind turbines . I'll keep looking and post the link when i find it . it worked out at around €4,500 (ex. installation) for one that could service a 5bed house and with bills reg in excess of €200 or so it made very good ecconomic sense although i'm sure an taisce would have something to say about it . the company that listed them also stated that they could be rigged up directly to your home(no battery packs) and also that the eu have a rule that if you produce more than you use and you're riiged up to the grid , the e.s.b. have to buy the excess from you . this way you use your own turbine power when it's windy enough and national grid(esb) when it's not and selling some back should cancel out what you use from the e.s.b. don't know if i've made it all very clear but hopefully you'll all get the jist !

paul666

rogue-entity wrote:

This is not true. We have 4 electric showers. Three are upstairs and one is in the granny-flat. We also have a 16A Tumble dryer and a submersable water pump, all feed from the same single-phase 63A mains supply. The granny flat has a seperate fusebox, which is isolated by a main fuse before connecting directly to the meter. The tumble dryer is fed from the same ringmain as the sockets for the dishwasher and washing machine in the utility room.

All the showers are isolated by a 40A MCB. And we have never had any problems with two showers running at the same time. In theory a power-shower will draw up to 8KW when running, but this is the peak load at full power. Like I said, we have never had any problems, but then the 4 showers are never run at the same time anyway, so we get away with it.

Thats a fire hazzard with a 16a tumble dryer a dishwasher and a washing machine all running at once and whatever u could have running on the other sockets which is very possible the cable could possibly melt and catch fire with the amount of current passing thru it ive seen this happen before. If u had 2 or more showers running at the same time u could possibly blow the esb fuse and they'd charge u a fortune too replace that. if r.e.c.i. came into see ure house they'd report it to the esb and they'd make u get it done properly as sparky s was explaining.

RoundyMooney

rogue-entity wrote:

This is not true.

Yes it is.

rogue-entity wrote:

We have 4 electric showers. Three are upstairs and one is in the granny-flat. We also have a 16A Tumble dryer and a submersable water pump, all feed from the same single-phase 63A mains supply.

:eek:

You're living on a knife edge, my friend. You need at the very least, a Priority switch, as its known, which will only allow one shower operate at a time.

Your main fuse may be 63A, however, the ESB main fuse, which you can't access, may only be 60A, or 80A if the yellow van has been out recently.

rogue-entity wrote:

The granny flat has a seperate fusebox, which is isolated by a main fuse before connecting directly to the meter. The tumble dryer is fed from the same ringmain as the sockets for the dishwasher and washing machine in the utility room.

That's fine.

rogue-entity wrote:

All the showers are isolated by a 40A MCB. And we have never had any problems with two showers running at the same time. In theory a power-shower will draw up to 8KW when running, but this is the peak load at full power. Like I said, we have never had any problems, but then the 4 showers are never run at the same time anyway, so we get away with it.

Yes, however, unless these are older units, your figures are off, with newer units drawing 10kW or up. As Sparky (electrician presumably, judging by his post) says, you should ensure now, right now, that the showers are not protected by an MCB alone, look for an RCD on your board, or a combined MCB/RCD unit, probably the former, judging by your description of the setup.

There's a lot of misinformation on this thread. gerrycollins, I'm looking at you

Tazz T, IMHO, storage heaters are a waste of time, and are only suitable for offices, which vacate at 5:30, as opposed to residences. Follow Sparky's advise regarding the settings, and you will see a benefit, both in terms of consumption, and storage of heat.

You are probably already on a proper double tariff setup if your apartment is fairly new. Use your appliances after 11pm, washing machines, dishwasher and what have you. This will help too. It would be no harm to take a walk down to your meter cabinet and verify that your timeclock is reading correctly, as these are by no means infallible.

HTH