Roaming Users in School Network

KAGY

Hi, as the IT teacher in a small school I would like for students to be able to log on with their own username from any PC and have access to their files. Basically i would like to have a central file server. Currently all computers are networked and connnect through the internet through a hardware router, which assigns all the IP addresses.
Is there an easy way to do this, or do I have to go down the route of setting up a W2k machine as a domain controller and server, and if so is that going to mess with the router?

Any links to a introduction to setting up a network (domain based rather than p2p) would also be appreciated.

Thanks
Karl

jamesd

Karl,

Proper setup would be a server based network -
Server running Server 2003 (Domain) and the usual hareware ( 3 scsi drives in raid 5 and a ups )

A user account setup for each student with a mapped drive for each student to store their data so if they go to any pc they get their data straight away there via the mapped drive to the server

Your router i assume is controlled by the NCTE and is providing broadband and giving out DHCP so you can ask them to turn off the dhcp function on ti and allow the server to pass out dhcp to the clients

If the client pcs are xp pro you can have a massive lockdown on them from the group policy function in windows 2003 server and restrict the students from doing alot of the messing on the pc's they seem to always get up to.

The above would reduce the number of call outs you will need from your IT company as the pc's can be locked down so well.

philologos

don't use Novell, or NetFort to do this, as they are both pure rubbish in my experience

ntlbell

Your router doesn't really come into it(depending on how it's setup now)

depending on the IT budget going down the 2k3 route can be very costly but is the simplest way.

On budget if your willing to do a bit of work you could impliment it with FreeBSD/Linux and OpenLDAP/Samba

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Yea, linux is probably the best option, if slightly more tricky that windows if you haven't used it before. I currently have a set up quite similar to what you're looking at, at home ,albeit not failsafe as i don't require it to be failsafe, i just use the linux machine as a file server

shabbyroad

rather than expose the school to risk/liability from whatever the students might store on their "personal" shares perhaps you could get the students to use USB drives ?

I'm familiar with the setup that is in place for (primary) schools to access their (state provided) broadband connection and would not recommend putting servers on top of this because it'll make troubleshooting more difficult if (when) you encounter problems.

Another possibility would be to purchase a NAS device and manage that. You should be able to use something like the LinkSys NSLU2 to create user accounts without having to setup domain controllers etc.

ntlbell

shabbyroad wrote:

rather than expose the school to risk/liability from whatever the students might store on their "personal" shares perhaps you could get the students to use USB drives ?

I'm familiar with the setup that is in place for (primary) schools to access their (state provided) broadband connection and would not recommend putting servers on top of this because it'll make troubleshooting more difficult if (when) you encounter problems.

Another possibility would be to purchase a NAS device and manage that. You should be able to use something like the LinkSys NSLU2 to create user accounts without having to setup domain controllers etc.

Why would putting an internal file server in place cause problems trouble shooting an external internet connection?

A NAS is just basically a fancy file server so if not one why the other?

doesn't make any sense.

p2kone

if your pcs are windows 2000 pro/ windows xp pro,m you best option is to go down the windows 2003 server option and use active directory, group policy, user profiles etc for setting up users/ home directories locking down desktops.

would be costly, but would be worth the money, and mapping users to home directories

if your getting a server for windows use a raid drive for the studenst data as jamesd suggests but also get an extra hard disk to use Volume Shadow Service, this will greatly reduce backup calls/recoveries.

TimTim

Last time I heard MS have some nice prices for academic places and so on. I'd look into that.

Where I go to school we have some sort of open license with MS

azzeretti

An Acedemic MS license will be very cheap, you should look into the SBS2K3 if possible.
Don't even think about going down the open source route if you are not familiar with it, I have seen sites trying similar and it was very difficult for them.

jamesd

MS still only recommend SBS2003 for 75 users max ish so depends on the size of the school - Licensing for schhols is cheap comparded to business but beware you will need to buy a license ( CAL ) for each pc that will access the server - I think €12.50 each or so.

Cormic

I think the thing you need to ask yourself is do you have the time and interest to learn and support a Linux system. If you do then great but if you don't then it is probably better to get a MS solution. It might also be an idea to compare the NAS box and a MS solution as the NAS box might come in a lot cheaper.

rogue-entity

*restrains from bashing Windows Server2K3 people over head*

Dont waste your time using Microshafts server software, it is overpriced and overkill. Completly unneeded and frankly, not as stable as a Linux system IMHO.

Newtown School Waterford has impliamented a "roaming profile" system using a few spare desktops and a decent server. They have a proper server with SCSI HDDs working as a router, DHCP, File Server and Porno filter. All using Open Source Software.

To do what NSW have done, for almost 0 cost, here is what you do. You get a decent Server machine with at least two disks in a mirror array (so if one disk dies, you just replace it with no data loss). Install SuSE (or any handy Linux distro) onto it, and install Samba too. Samba will easily let you setup file shares that can be mapped as drives under windows. And Samba can be used (with or without OpenLDAP) to handle Domain logins. All you do is configure Samba to work as a Domain Controller, set to Domain Master. (I can send you instructions that I got on doing this if you want).

Now take a spare PC and add a second network card. Download Censornet and install it onto the PC. Connect the "external" network card to your internet connection, and the other to your network switch/hub along with your PCs and your login server. The Censornet box is configurable with a web interface and will happily restrict access to the more unsavoury parts of the net.

Since Censornet just uses Dansguardian and Squid to do what it does, you can install smoothwall onto that spare PC and then install Squid and Dansguardian onto that to combine a good firewall with net filtering.

Anyway any questions, drop me a PM, but for the love of God, consider going down the OSS route and the money you will save on licence fees by not using Windows Server. (Every PC needs a CAL)

jamesd

Ahh - I wont even comment!!

Karl I hope you can read from the above posts what you need.

azzeretti

rogue-entity wrote:

*restrains from bashing Windows Server2K3 people over head*

Dont waste your time using Microshafts server software, it is overpriced and overkill. Completly unneeded and frankly, not as stable as a Linux system IMHO.

Newtown School Waterford has impliamented a "roaming profile" system using a few spare desktops and a decent server. They have a proper server with SCSI HDDs working as a router, DHCP, File Server and Porno filter. All using Open Source Software.

To do what NSW have done, for almost 0 cost, here is what you do. You get a decent Server machine with at least two disks in a mirror array (so if one disk dies, you just replace it with no data loss). Install SuSE (or any handy Linux distro) onto it, and install Samba too. Samba will easily let you setup file shares that can be mapped as drives under windows. And Samba can be used (with or without OpenLDAP) to handle Domain logins. All you do is configure Samba to work as a Domain Controller, set to Domain Master. (I can send you instructions that I got on doing this if you want).

Now take a spare PC and add a second network card. Download Censornet and install it onto the PC. Connect the "external" network card to your internet connection, and the other to your network switch/hub along with your PCs and your login server. The Censornet box is configurable with a web interface and will happily restrict access to the more unsavoury parts of the net.

Since Censornet just uses Dansguardian and Squid to do what it does, you can install smoothwall onto that spare PC and then install Squid and Dansguardian onto that to combine a good firewall with net filtering.

Anyway any questions, drop me a PM, but for the love of God, consider going down the OSS route and the money you will save on licence fees by not using Windows Server. (Every PC needs a CAL)

Fear the penguin!

ntlbell

azzeretti wrote:

Fear the penguin!

He's not a real penguin, no penguin with an ounce of dignity would recommend SuSE

KAGY

Thanks for all those comments. We're a small school and the budget is probably hitting negative numbers. (We were running on 6/7 year old machines until about 2 months ago when I squeezed 8 XP-pro machines from somewhere) With such small numbers of I don't mind setting up group policies etc on each machine if necessary.
RE: the usb key solution, we're doing something like that at the moment with floppies (if anyone remembers them, there may be one under your coffee cup) but the problem with that is I have to collect each one to correct work...

I might try out the Unix route at home first, plenty of spare machines there, and CAT5 network thoughout like all proper nerds should. I know I'm going to regret asking this, but what flavour should I go for? Has to be free though! and remember I'm a newbie

And based on that, any good starter courses out there on the web?

Thanks again

rogue-entity

ntlbell wrote:

He's not a real penguin, no penguin with an ounce of dignity would recommend SuSE

Ah, what is so bad about SuSE? When NSW got there Linux server online, they chose to use SuSE and that is what I started using too. I have also tried Ubuntu, Xandros (both Debian based), Red Hat 9, Fedora Core 3, Slackware and I have even tried FreeBSD. I will probably download and test CentOS and FedoraCore 4 as well when I get a chance.

I recommended SuSE because A) IMHO It is a lot better then Red Hat or Fedora It has a decent Firewall C) YaST, one of the easiest to use installers. This makes it a good beginners OS and like most all the Linux Distros, a decent Server OS too.

I dont recommend Debian because although its packages are stable, they are also old and it is a lot harder to setup and rather daunting if you are unfamilier with the linux command line. That said, I have some experience with installing packages but I dont know how to get them to start with the system or to start/stop/restart services though.

Fedora Core IMO is more of a "desktop" distribution and I just never really liked the Red Hat way of doing things. I always got the impression of RedHat/Fedora that it was the most "windowsy" of the Linux distros.

There is also CentOS, based on RedHatEnterpriseLinux used by a number of Irish Webhosts.

shabbyroad

all fair comment rogue-entity but where is this school going to go when the opensource needs support ? wiki ?

TCO for opensource has not been proven to be less than commercial offerings from companies like Microsoft. To say it's a zero or near-zero TCO is not true. You get what you pay for.

rogue-entity

I did not say that the TCO of OpenSource was 0. I said that the software cost can be as LOW as 0 because some distros are free UNSUPPORTED downloads. If he was to buy a commercial Linux distribution such as SuSE/Novell or Red Hat, the company would provide support at an additional cost.

The way I see Windows V Linux in terms of TCO is this.
1) The Initial Cost, Windows Server software is commercial and *****ing expensive, you have no hope of getting SBS2003 and 10 CALS for 100Eur.
Linux on the other hand ranges from free to 100Eur depending on what distro you buy/download.

2) Support and Maintainance costs, Windows is dead easy to use, Windows has security problems that are worsened by the integration with its key componants. Linux in contrast by itself is like fort knox, only the server programs (such as SSH (remote Shell)) that connect to the outside world provide any possibilities for the system to be compromised and even then, it is limited to the access rights of the user that the server program runs under.

The perceived cost of Windows is higher because of the licencing fees, and the fact that these licences also need to be renewed on a yearly basis, where as Linux is a once off payment (if any at all).

Linux is also supported by a wide community of users and developers and they are only too happy to help.

Anyway, the guy said that he had no budget so I doubt he was planning on spending the $$$ for Windows server. That is one of the reasons why I am suggesting the open source route. And what he is asking for has been done by Newtown School. I know the admin that set the system up, I tested the system myself and I know that it works. It cost the school 0, because they just used the same copy of Linux that they installed on there main file server.

ntlbell

rogue-entity wrote:

I have even tried FreeBSD.

You say that like it was a bad thing.

Anyway, I didn't want to start a religious war, I was just giving you a jab about SuSE.

The most important thing here is if you do decide to go down the OSS route is you document the implimentation and document it well, so someone coming in to fill your shoes that may not be expirienced in OSS can easily maintain and troubleshoot any problems that may arise.

You should also mail ilug@linux.ie for suggestions.

jamesd

rogue-entity wrote:

The perceived cost of Windows is higher because of the licencing fees, and the fact that these licences also need to be renewed on a yearly basis, where as Linux is a once off payment (if any at all).

You dont have to renew windows licenses yearly - where did you get this from?

niallb

jamesd wrote:

You dont have to renew windows licenses yearly - where did you get this from?

I think you do in some cases, if you later want to qualify
for a product 'upgrade' when a new release emerges.

NiallB

jamesd

You can rent out the licenses yearly if thats what he meant but I strongly doubt he meant that as thats just in this year or late last year

axer

KAGY wrote:

Hi, as the IT teacher in a small school I would like for students to be able to log on with their own username from any PC and have access to their files. Basically i would like to have a central file server. Currently all computers are networked and connnect through the internet through a hardware router, which assigns all the IP addresses.
Is there an easy way to do this, or do I have to go down the route of setting up a W2k machine as a domain controller and server, and if so is that going to mess with the router?

Any links to a introduction to setting up a network (domain based rather than p2p) would also be appreciated.

Thanks
Karl

Why not just set up a workgroup with an extra pc acting as a file server. From the way you are talking you just dont want to have to go through 20 odd floppy disks and would prefer to have all the files stored in a central location. You could password protect each students folder on the file server and give them the password. I don't think it is worth your time setting up domain controllers etc. for 8 pcs

KAGY

axer wrote:

Why not just set up a workgroup with an extra pc acting as a file server.

I've done this on a class wide basis to get assignments to them, but I'm a geek at heart so had always planned on getting to know how networking worked. you have to remember that they are just kids so you are almost guarenteed that the file will be saved somewhere else!
To be honest I was hoping I could somehow convert a w2k machine into a server somehow at no cost. But I'm going to set up a linux net at home and check this out

rogue-entity

jamesd wrote:

You dont have to renew windows licenses yearly - where did you get this from?

I was referring to certain types of site licencing. I know of one instance where an entity that has a site licence for 58PCs to use XP Pro and another licence to use Office 2000. They pay more then ~1500/year for this licence and they have to renew it on a yearly basis.

For all intents and purposes, most linux distros are the same with a lot of them being based on other ones (most notably debian). The commercial ones will usualy include proprietary programs and drivers that wont be available in some of the free distros which are often composed of ONLY free software.

So just try all the major ones and which ever one you like best, go for it. Each one has its strenghts and weaknesses. Mandriva has a good WiFi tool that SuSE lacks. SuSE uses more up-to-date packages which Debian often lacks etc