Republican Riots in O'Connell Street

samb

I know this was not orchestrated by SF but we all know that if these scum-bags vote, they vote for SF. The flag waving sh#te that the orangemen were planning was silly, but to counter it with another flag waving session is just ridiculus (the violence not withstanding). Same goes for the 1916 parade, We get our independance from British imperialism (original flag wavers, marchers, and shooting ceremonisly in the are etc) and now we copy them.
I doubt the Queen will make it here now. I don't care (I think the monarchy is a joke) but it would symbolise a normalised relationship between two closely inter-related mature nations.

Solair

Forgetting about the politics for a moment, the entire event was a bit of a fiasco waiting to happen.

Someone in "Love Ulster" and Dublin City Council, or whoever gave this permission to go ahead, was clearly in a fuzzy-huggy overly optimistic mood at the time.

To route it through a building site was absolutely insane too. Not to mention the symbolism of the GPO, various statues etc.

I think perhaps a more sensible idea might have been to run the parade through the phoneix park to Aras an Uachtaran.

Easily controlled space, fewer missiles available and plenty of gardai to hand!

Also, the timing couldn't have been more stupid.

Saturday afternoon when everyone's available to go mental on the streets... When there are thousands of shoppers milling about and WORSE.. on a rugby international weekend when there were thousands of welsh supporters wandering about with no idea what was going on!

I think the media coverage of the early stages of the riots was absolutely abysmal. Even if they didn't have any details, they should have been doing some public safety-oriented "keep out of town" type stuff.

Many people only found out by word of mouth or from Dublin Bus / Taxi drivers!

In typical RTE style there was no live coverage of the situation. Don't they have a newscopter!?

The gardai also clearly wern't keeping in touch with newsrooms as the local radio stations had no updates until well after the situation had blown up into a huge issue.

And finally, I don't know why gardai put themselves in a seriously dangerous position during something like that. I can't really see a problem with the use of water cannon and tear gas... at least you disperse a crazy mob and minimise the number of people who are whacked in the head with flying debris and avoid face-to-face riot squad batton action!
Charging into an angry mob just causes maximum injury on all sides. It avoids potential head injuries, face injuries and certainly reduces the tendency towards police brutality.

I am not in favour of the use of these tools for anything else. But, in a situation like today... I really think they'd have been extremely effective.

ezone

is this ahern / mc dowells version of crystal nacht ?

breandan

stepbar wrote:

It will be interesting to hear comment from the rest of the Sinn Fein / IRA contingent over the next days and weeks.

Im not speaking for SF but I am a Republican and a SF voter.
SF had nothing to do with this march and told their members to have nothing to do with it, its that simple.
Now Im sure there were probably some SF 'supporters' present but equally there may well have been some FF or Labour 'supporters' present, hell two of those who appeared in court this evening were Lithuanians.
Members of the 'Lithuanian Brigade' of the IRA no doubt. :rolleyes:

rsynnott

ezone wrote:

is this ahern / mc dowells version of crystal nacht ?

Surely Gerry's or Ian's?

breandan wrote:

Im not speaking for SF but I am a Republican and a SF voter.
SF had nothing to do with this march and told their members to have nothing to do with it, its that simple.

SF/IRA, of course, is noted for its honesty.

Manic Moran

HelterSkelter wrote:

Call me a cynic but...

You're a cynic.

- why were the weapons (bricks, poles, etc) left in O'Connell Street?

People are apparently asking Dublin Corporation the same thing. However, I think I can see the Corp's point of view: The entire street is undergoing construction, removal of all materials from the length of the street is an unreasonable expense. Similarly, putting up barriers that would be insurmountable by people looking for a bit of ammo to lob would also be ludicrously expensive. They'd have probably found something else to throw anyway.

- why were there so few riot cops?
- why were the "protestors" allowed take control of much of the city centre for up to three hours?
- why were they not contained in O'Connell Street?

Can't answer those, and they're probably all related. If what I'm seeing in the news is accurate, you're talking about 300 rioters, and there were over a hundred uniformed Gardai before the riot kicked off. Not exactly the worst ration in the history of law enforcement. Someone screwed up somewhere when that many Gards can't keep things in line. Still, it's a very tricky business, riot control. Usual technique is to try to split the crowd up into smaller, more manageable groups. My guess is as the Gardai advanced, the rioters retreated faster, so it was kindof like a moving front. It would have been almost impossible to seal off O'Connell street to the extent that rioters couldn't have made their way around the cordon without serious numbers. My guess is the Gards seriously underestimated manpower requirements.

- why were the army not sent in?

For only 300 rioters? I seem to recall they had more trouble than that at Landsdowne Rd a few years back, the Army weren't required. Riots of that size should have been quite manageable by the Gardai's resources, why they were not remains to be seen. But then, only three hours isn't too amazingly long for a riot either, perhaps the Gards did deal with them relatively efficiently.

- why was the march allowed happen at all?

They don't need a reason to march, the government needs a reason to stop them from marching. I can't see any particular grounds for doing so. That some people disapprove isn't good enough.

Arguments like that make it sound like these riots are the fault of the loyalists, or the authorities for allowing the march. Bull. They are the fault of the rioters and their willfull disregard of society, law and order.

NTM

Manic Moran

Solair wrote:

I can't really see a problem with the use of water cannon and tear gas... at least you disperse a crazy mob and minimise the number of people who are whacked in the head with flying debris and avoid face-to-face riot squad batton action!

Tear gas in open terrain (i.e. not in buildings) is of questionable value. It also helps to have the right weather conditions, early Irish spring likely isn't favourable. Besides, for tear gas to work well, the Gards need masks as well so that they can take advantage of it.

The other catch with tear gas/water cannon is that they're great for dispersing a large crowd from any given location, but don't do much when you're dealing with small, mobile groups, as appears to have been the case here given the way they went from the top end of O'Connell street down to Nassau St and Temple Bar. To deal with those, there's nothing for it but to get up close and personal, and start grabbing people.

Charging into an angry mob just causes maximum injury on all sides. It avoids potential head injuries, face injuries and certainly reduces the tendency towards police brutality.

But that's the fun bit!

Seriously, though, put it in perspective. The default riot control equipment for me here in California is 5.56mm rifle with ball ammunition and fixed bayonet (I have it in writing). Tends to quieten things down quickly, although the hospitals become busy. A little head-cracking isn't so bad by comparison and in this case, is pretty much unavoidable. There are 40 arrests made? The -only- way to do that is by going in close and grabbing people. I don't want to see in the news that the crowd was 'dispersed'. I want to see in the news that people are hauled into court and jailed for this embarassment.

NTM

pork99

Solair wrote:

To route it through a building site was absolutely insane too. Not to mention the symbolism of the GPO, various statues etc.

Total incompetnece to allow the protest to assemble on a building site and then not have enough riot cops available to nip it in the bud. They seem not have known this was coming - all they had to do was buy the "Republican" Sinn Fein rag "Saoirse" (only believes in Saoirse for Celtic shirt wearing morons and criminals) to find out that a riot was being organised

Solair wrote:

And finally, I don't know why gardai put themselves in a seriously dangerous position during something like that. I can't really see a problem with the use of water cannon and tear gas... at least you disperse a crazy mob and minimise the number of people who are whacked in the head with flying debris and avoid face-to-face riot squad batton action!
Charging into an angry mob just causes maximum injury on all sides. It avoids potential head injuries, face injuries and certainly reduces the tendency towards police brutality.

I think they should have had enough Gardai deployed to block off the esacpe routes, corral them and then EVERYONE involved in the riots beaten into submission and arrested especially these guys;

But behind them all, maybe up to 100 metres from the frontline, were middle-aged men with Bluetooth earpieces, co-ordinating the whole thing, organising the mob. One man, in trendy Caterpillar hiking boots and Tommy Hilfiger jeans, talked coolly to his associates - to pull back towards Leinster House, or to hold their ground at O'Connell Street - that was the question.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=36&si=1569638&issue_id=13729

Stealing for a united Ireland
author by Bystanderpublication date Sat Feb 25, 2006 20:41Report this post to the editors

Some 'patriot' tried to steal my girlfriend's handbag off O'Connel street. I managed to catch him with a restraining elbow to the face. Luckily there was an american tourist there who helped me give him a hiding ... it's amazing how tough these guys aren't when they're isolated.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74504

pork99

Manic Moran wrote:

Seriously, though, put it in perspective. The default riot control equipment for me here in California is 5.56mm rifle with ball ammunition and fixed bayonet (I have it in writing). Tends to quieten things down quickly, although the hospitals become busy.

NTM

That's the way to do it

I'd love to have one of those Bluetooth earpiece wearing RSF f-ers at bayonet point - we'd see exactly how cool calm and collected he'd be then. I'd say that the Hilfiger jeans would need a good wash

But seriously the riot organised by mobile phone point is interesting in that this means that the riot organisers communications are not secure so apart from spending a few cents on Saoirse shouldn't the Special Detective Unit be getting intel by monitoring those phone calls? I'm sure every single Republican Shinner organising that riot has a profile with the Garda already.

GerardKeating

Nuttzz wrote:

If this was a football match

unionists 1 (RSF og 01mins) - Republicans 0

fecking morons dressed up in "my" flag without understanding of it meaning....

Those fecking morans are national traitors and should be treated as such.

they have set back any change of convincing the nothern unionist they we might actually take an interest in thier views.

pork99

Republican heroes at work

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlNoEqO2mUY

Sir Oxman

pork99 wrote:

Republican heroes at work

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlNoEqO2mUY

Disgusting alright.

But why call them Republican heroes? Why be part of dissemination of untruths?

To any normal eye they would be skanger kids taking advantage of a lawless situation. Maybe they are RSF or SF members, but you don't know that...

Hope all these videos/pics are passed onto the Guards.

pork99

delah wrote:

Disgusting alright.

But why call them Republican heroes? Why be part of dissemination of untruths?

To any normal eye they would be skanger kids taking advantage of a lawless situation. Maybe they are RSF or SF members, but you don't know that...

Embarrassing though it may be to many middle class Sinn Feiners that sort of person is what a lot of people think of the core SF support. One minute they are waving tricolours and chanting "Brits out" the next they are destroying and looting your property.

murphaph

pork99 wrote:

Embarrassing though it may be to many middle class Sinn Feiners that sort of person is what a lot of people think of the core SF support. One minute they are waving tricolours and chanting "Brits out" the next they are destroying and looting your property.

Indeed, SFIRA and anyone who supports them are scum. That mob are the target audience for SFIRA propoganda and they swallow it hook line and sinker. All my local SFIRA reps are like those scumbags-wouldn't be surprised if they were in attendance.

TheVan

I'm just waiting for the potential photographic/video evidence that SF members were involved.......bam!....drop in support....one positive from a disgusting day

Freddie59

rsynnott wrote:

I must say, I didn't like the way they were recently threatening not to go into coalition with anyone if that law wasn't lifted. Does anyone WANT to go into coalition with them?

I have a sneaking suspicion that FF, on the basis of some recent throwaway comments, would get into bed with them in the morning to stay in power.:mad: And I vote FF normally. If that happens I would never, ever vote for them again.

Sir Oxman

pork99 wrote:

Embarrassing though it may be to many middle class Sinn Feiners that sort of person is what a lot of people think of the core SF support. One minute they are waving tricolours and chanting "Brits out" the next they are destroying and looting your property.

But you don't know that.

Cork

Freddie59 wrote:

I have a sneaking suspicion that FF, on the basis of some recent throwaway comments, would get into bed with them in the morning to stay in power.:mad: And I vote FF normally. If that happens I would never, ever vote for them again.

Bertie made it pretty made it clear he would not go into government with the likes of sf/ira.

If he did, FF would never get my vote wither.

SF peddling their tribal crap with their criminal IRA operational?

SF's aim is indeed to hold the balance of power.

They are many idiots who vote for these people.

pork99

TheVan wrote:

I'm just waiting for the potential photographic/video evidence that SF members were involved.......bam!....drop in support....one positive from a disgusting day

I think any well known Sinn Fein figures are far too cute to go any where near that sort of thing

murphaph

TheVan wrote:

I'm just waiting for the potential photographic/video evidence that SF members were involved.......bam!....drop in support....one positive from a disgusting day

I don't even think it'll need concrete proof of any direct SFIRA connection. People aren't gonna risk this sort of stuff being the norm down here. It is the one poditive note out of this I suppose.

dbnavan

murphaph wrote:

I don't even think it'll need concrete proof of any direct SFIRA connection. People aren't gonna risk this sort of stuff being the norm down here. It is the one poditive note out of this I suppose.

I dont support SF and never have but somehow I highly doubt they had anything to do with this yesterday, did some of their supporters I am sure the probably did but if I arrange a couple bus load of lunatics that all support FG or FF does it then become a FF or FG riot.

You can join a party just by filling in an internet form, granted if you want to vote at their conventions you need to pay membership.

Now had Gerry Adams or Martin Mc Guiness been there it would be a vaild claim but they werent infact they spoke out about it. Most of the people yesterday probably never voted in their life and alot of them where too young to vote.

Sand

I don't even think it'll need concrete proof of any direct SFIRA connection. People aren't gonna risk this sort of stuff being the norm down here. It is the one poditive note out of this I suppose.

Itd be nice to think so, but lets face it. People were saying the same thing about SFIRAs vote last year when the Northern Irish bank raid happened and McCartney was murdered in a bar full of SFIRA politicians and party members. SFIRA have 10% of the vote, and the rioters yesterday are very typical of the SFIRA voting base. As SFIRA themselves boast, their supporters are the dregs of society.

Robberies, murders and rioting is not exactly going to bother the type of person who votes SFIRA to begin with. The only positive is that it makes it harder for SFIRA to present themselves as lovey dovey socialist-lite ecologists to the middle class vote.

One thing that makes me laugh is the similarity to 1916 - bunch of guys fighting on the citys main streets for the patriotic cause, both times demonised by the ordinary dubliners and both times SF had nothing to do with it, and both times theyre being associated with it - at this rate well be commemorating the rioters in a few decades as true Irishmen...

Bertie made it pretty made it clear he would not go into government with the likes of sf/ira.

Bertie also said he had no secret deals with SFIRA, and then announced the speaking rights to the Dail for NI politicians after furiously denying any deal was done, probably confusing the hell out of SFIRA because they were (correctly) claiming that a deal had been done.

Simply, Berties word is worthless, even for a politician. I can easily see him planning to shack up with SFIRA after the next election.

A Dub in Glasgo

murphaph wrote:

Indeed, SFIRA and anyone who supports them are scum.

Just for some clarity here, are you are calling any supporter of that legal political party Sinn Fein scum? If i said I support Sinn Fein, you would call me scum?

A Dub in Glasgo

murphaph wrote:

I don't even think it'll need concrete proof of any direct SFIRA connection. People aren't gonna risk this sort of stuff being the norm down here. It is the one poditive note out of this I suppose.

It will not need any sort of proof for the anti-SF people to pin the blame for yesterdays violence on SF. This thread yesterday was a perfect example of that.

ishmael whale

I know its frightening to find yourself agreeing with McDowell, but there you go.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2006/02/26/story246554.html
Gardaí 'were unprepared for Dublin riot'
26/02/2006 - 13:11:57

Justice Minister Michael McDowell today admitted An Garda Siochana had prepared for a low key peaceful unionist parade through Dublin city – not the hours of rioting instigated by republican counter-demonstrators. As opposition parties questioned why gardai were not ready to deal with the hundreds of thugs who fought running battles with officers, the Minister said a preliminary report would be on his desk in the next 24 hours……
“Obviously An Garda Siochana had prepared for a low key event in which these 200 to 300 hundred people from the border regions effectively of Northern Ireland who wanted to bring to the attention of the people of Dublin that they too have had their victims in all of the troubles,” Mr McDowell said. “They intended to do a peaceful march down O’Connell Street and over to Dáil Eireann. They intended to bring a number of loyalist bands with them. They intended to do shopping and then go back up north and this was their democratic right.”
……..
Mr McDowell suggested senior gardai would review whether O’Connell Street should have been closed off, or if the marchers should have been offered a different route. And he also said one alternative would have been to have up to 2,000 gardaí lining city centre streets to prevent any trouble.

In all, gardaí made 41 arrests including two women and two foreign nationals.
Some 13 people were charged at special sittings of Dublin District Court but detectives believe video evidence will be crucial in catching ringleaders who led rampagers through the city’s busiest shopping districts. All those who appeared in court were aged between 17 and 30, gardaí have confirmed…..

The Corinthian

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

It will not need any sort of proof for the anti-SF people to pin the blame for yesterdays violence on SF. This thread yesterday was a perfect example of that.

Apparently, according to you, the violence was all the fault of the unionists because they provoked it - Hell, they were looking for it.

So you are in no position to feign the moral high ground.

Binomate

The Army should have been called in in stead of taking Gardaí who were probably needed elsewhere.

A Dub in Glasgo

The Corinthian wrote:

Apparently, according to you, the violence was all the fault of the unionists because they provoked it - Hell, they were looking for it.

So you are in no position to feign the moral high ground.

No one to blame but the people involved - You disagree with that?

Questions need to be asked and they are very valid questions - You disagree with that?

The whole thing is a farce - You disagree with that?

1. Who allowed this in O'Connell Street when O'Connell Street was a building site. Very handy for people to get their hands on things to throw - You think that the building site was a good thing with a predicted counter demonstration?


2. This is exactly what was predicted ages ago. This is exactly the type of reaction that LU wanted. - You disagree with this? A lot of people are saying the exact same. It cemented in the LU minds that the RoI is not to be trusted therefore how can we expect to join a UI? You think is is not reasonable assessment?

---

What I wrote yesterday is similar to what a lot of commentators are asking in now in the media and you do not think they are valid questions to ask?

Finally I will repeat


No one to blame but the people involved

Freelancer

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

No one to blame but the people involved - You disagree with that?

Questions need to be asked and they are very valid questions - You disagree with that?

The whole thing is a farce - You disagree with that?

1. Who allowed this in O'Connell Street when O'Connell Street was a building site. Very handy for people to get their hands on things to throw - You think that the building site was a good thing with a predicted counter demonstration?


2. This is exactly what was predicted ages ago. This is exactly the type of reaction that LU wanted. - You disagree with this? A lot of people are saying the exact same. It cemented in the LU minds that the RoI is not to be trusted therefore how can we expect to join a UI? You think is is not reasonable assessment?


No one to blame but the people involved

But look there you are fobing off blame on the location and the LU crowd.

A Dub in Glasgo

No I am questioning the appropriateness of the governemnt to allow a march in O'Connell street when O'Connell Street is a building site with a predicted counter demonstration.