Republican Riots in O'Connell Street

Freelancer

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

No I am questioning the appropriateness of the governemnt to allow a march in O'Connell street when O'Connell Street is a building site with a predicted counter demonstration.

Again its blame shifting most of the burning cars took place on side streets, you can bang on all you want about how "inappropriate" the governments planning was, but it looks more and more like you are trying to shift the focus from republican thugs to government incompetence.

rsynnott

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Just for some clarity here, are you are calling any supporter of that legal political party Sinn Fein scum?

No, that would be unfair. Some of them are merely misguided, or not very clever. Anyone, though, who supports the party in full knowledge of the presence of their terrorist wing...

A Dub in Glasgo

Freelancer wrote:

Again its blame shifting most of the burning cars took place on side streets, you can bang on all you want about how "inappropriate" the governments planning was, but it looks more and more like you are trying to shift the focus from republican thugs to government incompetence.

Is the gist of your argument that you cannot condemn yesterdays violence and question the Government handling of the whole affair. In your world, we have 2 scenerios

1. Condemn the violence but do not question the Government handling
2. If you question the the Governments handling, you are shifting blame for the violence from the perps to the someone else

To me, that argument is not valid

And for the 5th time in this thread No one to blame but the people involved


Do you think the government should have questions asked of them?

Freelancer

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Is the gist of your argument that you cannot condemn yesterdays violence and question the Government handling of the whole affair. In your world, we have 2 scenerios

1. Condemn the violence but do not question the Government handling
2. If you question the the Governments handling, you are shifting blame for the violence from the perps to the someone else

To me, that argument is not valid

And for the 5th time in this thread No one to blame but the people involved


Do you think the government should have questions asked of them?

And if your only comments on this matter are a litany of blame shifting followed by a hastily tacked on "Oh and by the way I condemn the violence"? It would appear that you have a different agenda to your stated point of view.

Tell you what I think.
I think the clearly identifiable people who had their faces on National TV last night pulling down barriers,pegging firebombs and paving slabs should be rounded up and charged for their riotous behaviour and they should have a lifetimes judgement made against their income for the unlawfull damage they did.
Gurriers-pure and simple.

Binomate

Earthman wrote:

Tell you what I think.
I think the clearly identifiable people who had their faces on National TV last night pulling down barriers,pegging firebombs and paving slabs should be rounded up and charged for their riotous behaviour and they should have a lifetimes judgement made against their income for the unlawfull damage they did.
Gurriers-pure and simple.

That would be brilliant.

A Dub in Glasgo

Freelancer wrote:

And if your only comments on this matter are a litany of blame shifting followed by a hastily tacked on "Oh and by the way I condemn the violence"? It would appear that you have a different agenda to your stated point of view.

You do not have any questions of the government then? Your world revolves around the 2 scenerios I highlighted?

I condemned the violence yesterday when this thread started as the violence was happening, I have continued to condemn the violence throughout the thread and I have continued to state that the people involved in the violence are the only ones to blame throughout this thread. I have continued to ask questions about certain aspects of the handling of the violence. Questions, i might add, that many people in the media are also asking.

What is not clear?

The Corinthian

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

No one to blame but the people involved - You disagree with that?

Of course I disagree, it’s an idiotic assertion. It’s not the fault of the people involved, only the perpetrators - otherwise you might as well argue that an abused wife was asking for it. She provoked her husband by your reasoning.

At the end of the day, one may point to factors that may explain what occurred, however that does not justify it or spread the blame on anywhere else. That would simply be the logic of an apologist who’s secretly glad it happened but didn’t have the balls to do it themselves.

A Dub in Glasgo

The Corinthian wrote:

Of course I disagree, it’s an idiotic assertion. It’s not the fault of the people involved, only the perpetrators - otherwise you might as well argue that an abused wife was asking for it. She provoked her husband by your reasoning.

At the end of the day, one may point to factors that may explain what occurred, however that does not justify it or spread the blame on anywhere else. That would simply be the logic of an apologist who’s secretly glad it happened but didn’t have the balls to do it themselves.

You misunderstand - Only those involved means involved in the violence

dabhoys

I think all of yesterdays events were a joke and pretty much highlight how mickey mouse our government is. I found the days events quite funny to be honest.

I can't understand for one minute why unionists probaly none of which even live in Dublin and don't even consider themselves Irish that they had to march through the city to get a point across.

No one need Gardai intelligence (which too is a ****ing joke) to tell us trouble was going to happen. Of course it was going to happen. The people marching yesterday represent a part of irish history that irish people haven't forgot.

I'm all for peace and I don't have problem with anyone marching. Could you imagine a KKK march through Harlem just because its there civil right to be allowed to have a parade no. I can't accept that the gardai think that yestedays march was not going to be a melting pot for violence.

I've don't have the time of day for the gardai or this government. I've lived in a fair few countries and Ireland tops the list of mickey ****ing mouse governments. I do look forward to moving the **** out of here.

Sir Oxman

Earthman wrote:

Tell you what I think.
I think the clearly identifiable people who had their faces on National TV last night pulling down barriers,pegging firebombs and paving slabs should be rounded up and charged for their riotous behaviour and they should have a lifetimes judgement made against their income for the unlawfull damage they did.
Gurriers-pure and simple.

100% agree. There's loads of photo/video footage - why should you and I pay for what they did? Hit them where it hurts, it works against drug barons etc

Cork

And for the 5th time in this thread No one to blame but the people involved

Tribal & sectarian waffle was also a factor. That narrow minded provo mindset played a part.

Sand wrote:

Bertie also said he had no secret deals with SFIRA, and then announced the speaking rights to the Dail for NI politicians after furiously denying any deal was done, probably confusing the hell out of SFIRA because they were (correctly) claiming that a deal had been done.

As far as I know, Bertie has not agreed to speaking deals in the Dail.

I for one would be aganist low grade NI tribal "politics" polluting our National parliament.

civdef

Tell you what I think.
I think the clearly identifiable people who had their faces on National TV last night pulling down barriers,pegging firebombs and paving slabs should be rounded up and charged for their riotous behaviour.

This is how the rioters in the Bradford riots of 2001 were tracked down and jailed.

dabhoys

Thats what great about this country even if they do arrest and prosecute them they probaly won't do jail time and if they do it won't be long. We haven't got the prison's to house them in. Its great to think murderers walk free after a few years. Great judicial system. Not to mention all the judges are self appointed righteous assholes.

Why are judges publically elected like in the states??

That to me seems like a fairer system.

civdef wrote:

This is how the rioters in the Bradford riots of 2001 were tracked down and jailed.

St_Crispin

As far as I'm concerned republicans are solely to blame for the violence yesterday.

Saying it's the unionists fault for having a march is just dim.

Republicans march all the time in the north (which is in the UK). The parades commission is designed to make sure that both sides of NI politics can have peaceful protests.

I have been in a St. Patricks day parade in london. Islamicists have marched both in ireland and in london. People have marches or protest against contraversial issues all the time. It rarely degrades to the level of thuggery that we witnessed yesterday.

One thing I'd like to point out is that the unionists had permission to march yesterday. They came down here after laying wreaths on both sides of the boarder for the lives lost in the conflict. They then proceded to start to pack up when they were told they couldn't march.

The republicans didn't (as far as I know) have permission for a protest. The ppl who were burning cars and looting were wearing tricolours.

One irony I'd like to mention is this. The unionists came down here to march in support of the north staying within the union. They recognise the irish republics right to exist. The IRA/Sinn Fein don't. They don't recognise the irish republic and don't recognise the authority of our state.

St_Crispin

dabhoys wrote:

Why are judges publically elected like in the states??

That to me seems like a fairer system.

Because then the law becomes political. I'd prefer to see judges given their position based on merit rather than who has the best looking campaign poster.

dabhoys

Well the law is supposed to be part of the state so law in it most basic principles is politcal either way. The elections in the states for judges aren't like the campaigns you see for Mayor etc. They're voted in by the people on there merit. There nominated by there peers and then the people decide who gets the job. I'm sorry I have no faith in the judicial system here. Why should a bunch of self appointed wig wearing snobs appoint another wig wearing snob to be a judge. Why do they have the right. I just don't agree with it thats all. I think its a like a small little club that all their friends are in.

St_Crispin wrote:

Because then the law becomes political. I'd prefer to see judges given their position based on merit rather than who has the best looking campaign poster.

dabhoys

I never actually blamed the unionist for yesterdays events. I said I have no problem with them marching.

I know the Unionist had permission to march. I never said they didn't. They hardly just showed up and decided to start marching.

My point is that the gardai and the government seemed to think the whole thing was going to go down peacefully.

Most of the people yesterday rioting don't have a clue what the whole thing is about. There mis informed scum bags. I never said what happened yesterday was right. I just said it was funny because the idea was not thought out on the government parts.

They represent a very soft spot in Irish history. Like I said we all know that a bunch of KKK members marching through harlem is harmless in theory. But its not harmless to the community there. They don't forget what an organisation like that represents. My point is that yesterday parade no matter how much permission they had was never go down peaceful and I don't ever see it happening. Why should people forgot 800 years of oppression?? That what the unionist represent.

I don't consider the 6 counties part of the UK. I had this very same debate about the queen making a royal visit a few years ago and its the same principal.

St_Crispin wrote:

As far as I'm concerned republicans are solely to blame for the violence yesterday.

Saying it's the unionists fault for having a march is just dim.

Republicans march all the time in the north (which is in the UK). The parades commission is designed to make sure that both sides of NI politics can have peaceful protests.

I have been in a St. Patricks day parade in london. Islamicists have marched both in ireland and in london. People have marches or protest against contraversial issues all the time. It rarely degrades to the level of thuggery that we witnessed yesterday.

One thing I'd like to point out is that the unionists had permission to march yesterday. They came down here after laying wreaths on both sides of the boarder for the lives lost in the conflict. They then proceded to start to pack up when they were told they couldn't march.

The republicans didn't (as far as I know) have permission for a protest. The ppl who were burning cars and looting were wearing tricolours.

One irony I'd like to mention is this. The unionists came down here to march in support of the north staying within the union. They recognise the irish republics right to exist. The IRA/Sinn Fein don't. They don't recognise the irish republic and don't recognise the authority of our state.

pork99

murphaph wrote:

I don't even think it'll need concrete proof of any direct SFIRA connection. People aren't gonna risk this sort of stuff being the norm down here. It is the one poditive note out of this I suppose.

Senior SF people were "told to haqve their alibis ready" which is nice

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-1507-2059231-3048,00.html

Manic Moran

I don't think the building site theory holds much water either, now I think of it. Those cars I saw being upturned and set alight were on Nassau street, so unless they brought paving stones/bricks along with them, I think the building materials were incidental.

NTM

Valentia

Poblachtach wrote:

Funny seeing lads still giving out about Sinn Fein here, when they didnt even attend.

SF are the masters of disassociating themselves from things that they are intimately associated with. Dangerous and evil. The crowd of yobbos yesterday are exactly the electorate they target and (handhold to)get on the(northern registered) bus to vote for them.

dabhoys

You've totally mis read the article. It didn't take a rocket scientist to know what was going to happen. Sinn Fein had nothing to do with the protest. Sinn Fein knew what was going to happen as did any person with half a brain. I've no connection with sinn fein or that and I knew that the **** was going to hit the fan. Does that make me to blame? Of course not. The alibis were there to protect the interest of the party because ignorant mis informed people will automatically point the finger at Sinn Fein. Hence the alibis. I hate when people take things out of context!!!

I don't agree with MacDowell no hold bars attitide towards sinn fein. This to me is a step in the wrong direction.

dathi1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlNoEqO2mUY Next time there should be a Garda Unit armed with pump action bird shot rounds. Then we can all cry afterwards about poor Sean and his arse riddled with shot. I dont think there shoukld be any question about this. These riots have set the scene for future protests to be hijaked by town scum. Any one who suggests they come from deprived areas etc should be locked up with them.

Pal

dabhoys wrote:

Sinn Fein had nothing to do with the protest.

don't believe you.

breandan

I think the violence against public property and innocent individauls was bang out of order and should be condemned outright.
But as for the orange scum and the gardai who were willing to protect them as they engaged in their fascist behaviour, well done the rioters I say.
I'll admit that it did play into the hands of the march organizers and Loyalism in general but so what, the cause of Ireland has waited 800 years so another few wont make much difference in the grand scheme of things.
The orange fascist wanted to be allowed march through the streets of Dublin, the Irish establishment gave permission and instructed the Gardai to allow them to engage in their vile activities.

A splinter group of Irish Republicanism apposed this.
They took to the streets and confronted the fascists and those who would protected the fascists and they won.

breandan

breandan wrote:

But as for the orange scum and the gardai who were willing to protect them as they engaged in their fascist behaviour, well done the rioters I say.
I'll admit that it did play into the hands of the march organizers and Loyalism in general but so what, the cause of Ireland has waited 800 years so another few wont make much difference in the grand scheme of things.
The orange fascist wanted to be allowed march through the streets of Dublin, the Irish establishment gave permission and instructed the Gardai to allow them to engage in their vile activities.

A splinter group of Irish Republicanism apposed this.
They took to the streets and confronted the fascists and those who would protected the fascists and they won.

Lord God man, do a little bit of introspection there and see if you can show me how what you've just posted is not biggoted and not a defence of the extremely unwelcome anti social behaviour that went on yesterday.
do you think the people of Dublin supported those rioters and agree with your position?
If you do,I've no faith in your judgement.
In fact I'll just say you are wrong and leave it at that.

pork99

breandan wrote:

A splinter group of Irish Republicanism apposed this.
They took to the streets and confronted the fascists and those who would protected the fascists and they won.

Which is why the Love Ulster march should be rescheduled and carried through even if it takes half the Gardai in the country to do it. I couldn't care less where Orangemen march but the principle that the duly elected and legally accountable authorities are in control in this country not a republican rent-a-mob needs to be enforced. How can we have democracy and rule of law if a mob like that can turn out and get what they want by trashing the place? It's simply not acceptable - they are the fascists.

(You probably wouldn't know what a fascist was if one bit you anyway. Looking at the deomgraphics on this board I'd say you are some 18 year old student whose only experience of oppression is being sent to bed early by your parents.)

“This mob is not fighting in my name,” said John Molloy, who was injured in the Dublin bombing of 1974. “I just feel disgust. There were banners calling for people to remember the Dublin-Monaghan bombings, but not one victim was there. I just feel so angry at the whole anger and bitterness that has spilled out onto the streets.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,2765-2059235,00.html

breandan

pork99 wrote:

Which is why the Love Ulster march should be rescheduled and carried through even if it takes half the Gardai in the country to do it. I couldn't care less where Orangemen march but the principle that the duly elected and legally accountable authorities are in control in this country not a republican rent-a-mob needs to be enforced.

The state is welcome to try but the fact of the matter is that the authorities have been trying to defeat Republicanism in one form or another since the start of the troubles and havnt yet been able to.

pork99 wrote:

How can we have democracy and rule of law if a mob like that can turn out and get what they want by trashing the place? It's simply not acceptable - they are the fascists.

Personally Im not worried about those who stopped the march taking place being branded as 'fascist' or anything else for that matter.
They stood up for what they believed in and were victories and thats the bottom line for me.
As I said Im sorry for the innocents who suffered but thats something for the Loyalist and the authorities and Gardai to deal with.
This whole sorry mess is of their making

pork99 wrote:

(You probably wouldn't know what a fascist was if one bit you anyway. Look at the deomgraphics on this board I'd say you are some 18 year old student whose only experience of oppression is being sent to bed early by your parents.)

I spoke about my views on the events of yesterday, your the one who turned it into a personal attack because you dont like my views.
Id say your comments are far more in keeping with those of an '18 year old student whose only experience of oppression is being sent to bed early by your parents.)' than mine.

Pal

breandan wrote:

I think the violence against public property and innocent individauls was bang out of order and should be condemned outright.
But as for the orange scum and the gardai who were willing to protect them as they engaged in their fascist behaviour, well done the rioters I say.
I'll admit that it did play into the hands of the march organizers and Loyalism in general but so what, the cause of Ireland has waited 800 years so another few wont make much difference in the grand scheme of things.
The orange fascist wanted to be allowed march through the streets of Dublin, the Irish establishment gave permission and instructed the Gardai to allow them to engage in their vile activities.

A splinter group of Irish Republicanism apposed this.
They took to the streets and confronted the fascists and those who would protected the fascists and they won.

hard to know what to say to that load of ****e

breandan

Earthman wrote:

Lord God man, do a little bit of introspection there and see if you can show me how what you've just posted is not biggoted and not a defence of the extremely unwelcome anti social behaviour that went on yesterday.

To clear up any misunderstandings about my above post let me make it clear that I do defend the actions of the rioters yesterday.
As Iv said Im sad that innocents got hurt and damage to hard earned private property was done and that was wrong but it was and is in my view a price worth paying for the greater good in stopping this fascist march from taking place.