When should the FAIR march be rescheduled for?

murphaph

We live in a democracy and our democratically elected government and the Gardai who report to that government deemed the march yesterday to be quite legal. The democratic will of the population at large was stopped from happening by two or three hundred people. This is patently unnacceptable in a democracy and the march must be rescheduled and proceed as was planned. Of course when this happens, a massive Garda/Civil Defence/Army presence must be felt all along the route, lining it completely. Other measures need to be taken also, such as having the water canon on standby and so on. We must not let a tiny minority of the population tell the rest of us what can and cannot happen in our own city. I'd suggest waiting until O'Connell Street is complete before we reschedule the march. Every decent citizen should be in attendance to show these FAIR/Loyalists and the world that regardless of whether or not we approve of their ways, we will not tolerate intolerance on our streets and will not let mob rule dictate our way of life.

Sir Oxman

No. I do not want that class of people marching through Dublin.

The rioters/looters are scum but think of this - those Loyalists were onto a winner whatever happened yesterday - if they marched they would crow and bleat that they could march through the capital of Ireland so why not be allowed march through Nationalist areas in the North? What's the big deal they would say...rioting trouble and they would say look, look we told you what the south is like...

I'll be honest and say I haven't had the time to research these 'Love Ulster' people but I will. I've heard that many stories about the organiser etc and their ethos that I would be initially suspicious of their motives.

A march for all victims of the troubles (North/South/Britain/Europe) should go ahead, no bloody flag waving or drums beating - why just one side, are Nationalist or non-aligned victims somehow of less value?

Tell you what, when a load of Nationalist/Republicans representing their victims can go up to the Shankill and parade with bands and Tricolours, then I may agree with you.

A demonstration in rememberance of ALL victims of the Northern bloodlust would make more sense

The 'rioters', each and everyone of them should be penalised to the full extent of the law - there are plentyn of photos and video footage including a set of pics showing very brave 'men' beating up an Asian shopworker outside Centra on Portland Row.

Maskhadov

I was disapointed to see the violance. I hope another day can be rescheduled and proper security procedures can be put in place.

lifegamer

I just wanna say that FAIR knew all too well that there prescence would cause a scene like that yesterday. They'd be the ones pelting republicans with bricks if we were waving tricolours up shankhill.

What's worse is that the government knew this would also happen and they failed to pre-empt the riots from happening. Sinn Fein should have made a statement in advance asking people to act civilised during the march, as they should know the kind of reaction the march was going to get. My opinion is that whoever signed for or agreed to this march should resign over this fiasco as no preventative measures were made until it was too late. It was blatantly obvious that people were going to cause trouble at such a contreversial march.

Also worse is the fact the constructuion company neglected to removed basically unprotected tools and materials from the street and therefore gave these people fuel for their fire so to speak and they should be fined at least and made accountable for what happened. Anyone with half a brain would have known to take the construction materials away, yet for some reason they didn't.

A demonstration in rememberance of ALL victims of the Northern bloodlust would make more sense

I agree....

murphaph

Yeah yeah, hindsight is always 20-20, SIAC are not gonna be fined, nor should they be, for the actions of the mob. This thread is not about whether or not you like or dislike FAIR/OO/Lambeg Drums, it's about US and the fact that OUR democracy was interfered with in a most base way by the mob. We cannot sit back and let them 'win'. Society can't afford to send the message to the mob that we will lie down and take their orders. The march must proceed for OUR democracy's sake and we must all support it taking place, even if we don't support it's aims.

gurramok

No, this march by extremists should not be allowed again. The organiser Willie Frazier and his cohorts is linked to loyalist terrorists even that he was refused a gun licence by the PSNI beacuse of his background

I and many thousands like yesterday will be out protesting peacefully if it does plus it will attract the local scum element to destroy our city again.

Murphaph, do you honestly think the cost of a huge security operation to allow extremists march is worth our taxes?

Sarsfield

If Republicans are allowed march in Dublin then so should Unionists. How many marches have there been in Dublin highlighting Republican victims of Northern violence? They're a regular event.

In a genuine democracy (something both sides from the NI troubles are yet to get to grips with) both sides should be allowed express their views. A situation where we have only Republican marches and neutral marches is not fair and balanced.

So I fully support another march in the future. I don't agree with the marchers but I support their right to march. Either that or Sinn Fein/all Republicans should agree never to have a protest march in Dublin either.

gurramok wrote:

..do you honestly think the cost of a huge security operation to allow extremists march is worth our taxes?

The cost of not allowing it is a loss of democracy and freedom. Which is the higher cost?

ishmael whale

Looking back on yesterday, I think people are correctly picking up that, if we deem a parade to be lawful, then we have to take measures to enable it to go ahead. We allowed a few hundred goughers to reverse a decision of our legitimate authorities. That's a problem in itself.

Looking forward, clearly some Unionists have correctly seen that they make a powerful point by marching in Dublin, and yesterday made their point powerfully. They can indeed point out firstly that the authorities in the Republic have no objection in principle to them marching past the GPO, and ask why their nationalist neighbours have such a problem. Secondly, they can point out that while the Republic's authorities have no objection to a march, in practice such a march is not possible.

In this reality, Unionists can correctly point out their traditions cannot be protected in a Republic of Ireland context. Even if we recognise them as having the same rights in principle as nationalists, they can point out our inability to protect their rights at street level.

Their points are valid in this context, and the only way forward is to accept this reality. There's no point in pretending that we can avoid this reality by creating some comforting mindset to the effect that the marchers are sectarian bigots themselves who should not be let march. Firstly, there would be no need for democracies to have robust protections of freedoms if dissent was about listening to people you've no fundemental objection to. Freedom and liberty is all about an Orange band in full regalia marching past the GPO with a Union Jack.

Many of us can accept that image. We're secure enough in our own belief in the Republic not to mind seeing the Union Jack flying in our streets. Others are not. They didn't riot yesterday, but they object to the idea of Unionist marching in Dublin and that makes the Unionist case for them. Their essential point is 'they don't want us down there' and they're right.

If we react to them the way they reacted to nationalists in the North, then we're retrospectively vindicating the existance of the Northern state. The Republic will always be half a country until we learn to accept Unionism.

murphaph

gurramok wrote:

No, this march by extremists should not be allowed again. The organiser Willie Frazier and his cohorts is linked to loyalist terrorists even that he was refused a gun licence by the PSNI beacuse of his background

You're completely entitled to your opinion on him. I find him abrasive too tbh.

gurramok wrote:

I and many thousands like yesterday will be out protesting peacefully if it does plus it will attract the local scum element to destroy our city again.

There were maybe a few hundred protestors at best, let's not exaggerate here. Poulation of Ireland >4m, protestors ~1000 tops. I recognise your right to pacefully protest of course. I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't.

gurramok wrote:

Murphaph, do you honestly think the cost of a huge security operation to allow extremists march is worth our taxes?

Yes gurramok I really do. I believe it's a fundamental tenant of our democracy that when the democratically elected government deems an act legal that we abide by that determination and voice our satisfaction/dis-satisfaction at the ballot box. What happened yesterday was an attack on those principles and we as a nation can't stand idly by and let 0.0001% of the population tell us how to live our lives.

Sir Oxman

gurramok wrote:

No, this march by extremists should not be allowed again. The organiser Willie Frazier and his cohorts is linked to loyalist terrorists even that he was refused a gun licence by the PSNI beacuse of his background

I and many thousands like yesterday will be out protesting peacefully if it does plus it will attract the local scum element to destroy our city again.

Murphaph, do you honestly think the cost of a huge security operation to allow extremists march is worth our taxes?

Ah but you see murphaph will point out that Gerry adams et al have been linked to republican terrorists yet are allowed to march through Dublin city - and I can see his point.

Where were the howls of 'save our democracy' when a planned OO march through Dublin in 2000 was scuppered?

Quote from Mr Frazer in 2005:
“If we can parade in Dublin with no bother what is the problem in Northern Ireland?” said Frazer. “It is only when republicans get involved that there is a problem. This shows that people in the south are more tolerant and mature in their attitudes than northern nationalists.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2091-1920441,00.html

As I said in message #1, the "LoveUlster" crowd were onto a winner whatever happened. I don't want my city looking like it did again yesterday to support a group of highly dubious propagandists. Gardai should take this opportunity to clean up the local thugs involved.

Any chance the FAIR crowd and the Nationalist victims groups would align and demand answers together? Nope, thought not.

Binomate

I can't wait for the next march. Next time the real Irish people can show themselve to be more tolerant rather than these scumbags giving them a false representation of Ireland.

gurramok

murphaph wrote:

You're completely entitled to your opinion on him. I find him abrasive too tbh.


There were maybe a few hundred protestors at best, let's not exaggerate here. Poulation of Ireland >4m, protestors ~1000 tops. I recognise your right to pacefully protest of course. I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't.


Yes gurramok I really do. I believe it's a fundamental tenant of our democracy that when the democratically elected government deems an act legal that we abide by that determination and voice our satisfaction/dis-satisfaction at the ballot box. What happened yesterday was an attack on those principles and we as a nation can't stand idly by and let 0.0001% of the population tell us how to live our lives.

Where u there yesterday?..I was.

There were a few hundred yobs among a few thousand on O'Connell St.
Many people who joined never even knew an Orange march was happening due to the lack of publicity.
There will be more protesters next time as the publicity it will generate bring yet more yobbos with any grievance onto the street.
Your naieve to think that our wonderful gardai can control a riot when they cannot even control vast swathes of everyday lawless Dublin.

Sarsfield wrote:

The cost of not allowing it is a loss of democracy and freedom. Which is the higher cost?

The freedom to march and hate another group of people?
The cost of allowing an incitement to hate march through is not worth the price. (FYI the marchers preach hate of another group called catholic)
Many Dubs do not want Northern problems coming to Dublin.

lostexpectation

NEVER!

not those love ulster bigots anyway.

mike65

I suggest sometime around April 15th.

Mike.

murphaph

gurramok wrote:

Where u there yesterday?..I was.

No I wasn't.

gurramok wrote:

There were a few hundred yobs among a few thousand on O'Connell St.
Many people who joined never even knew an Orange march was happening due to the lack of publicity.

Even if it was 10,000 gurramok, it would still have been a fraction of the national population.

gurramok wrote:

There will be more protesters next time as the publicity it will generate bring yet more yobbos with any grievance onto the street.

Possibly true, but are we as a society going to bow to yobbos with grievances (read: thieves stealing from parked cars etc.)?

gurramok wrote:

Your naieve to think that our wonderful gardai can control a riot when they cannot even control vast swathes of everyday lawless Dublin.

They can in sufficient numbers and with the support of civil defence and the military if needs be, coupled with ordinary decent people who support our democracy and don't walk all over it, coming out on the streets to show they support our democracy.

gurramok wrote:

The freedom to march and hate another group of people?

This is just your opinion of FAIR and the OO etc. which you are entitled to, but you are not entitled to tell me or the rest of society that they can't march when our democratically elected government who represent us, have said they are. I have little in common with many of them either btw.

gurramok wrote:

The cost of allowing an incitement to hate march through is not worth the price. (FYI the marchers preach hate of another group called catholic)
Many Dubs do not want Northern problems coming to Dublin.

Who would be incited to hate? The mindless yobs who destroyed ordinaru citizens' property yesterday? They hardly need any incitement gurramok. If dubs don't want northern problems, then they will have to tell our government to stop any interference with the north. So long as our government continues to dabble in northern affairs then we have to accept northern problems.

axer

Murphaph, since you are so in favour of "Democracy", please answer these questions that you have attempted to avoid here.

Should the KKK be allowed march through Harlem? If such a march was allowed would you expect it to go through peacefully?

murphaph

Axer, give up on the KKK through Harlem question. I'm not gonna answer it because it's pathetic and irrelevant whatabboutery. OUR government who WE elect decided the FAIR march would be legal. A mob decided that our votes count for nothing and that the decision of OUR government didn't suit them.

Back on topic,
I'd imagine a summer date might bring more unionists south, though many may stay away even if invited given what has happened.

axer

murphaph wrote:

Axer, give up on the KKK through Harlem question. I'm not gonna answer it because it's pathetic and irrelevant whatabboutery. OUR government who WE elect decided the FAIR march would be legal. A mob decided that our votes count for nothing and that the decision of OUR government didn't suit them.

Back on topic,
I'd imagine a summer date might bring more unionists south, though many may stay away even if invited given what has happened.

Not answering the question is hypocritical. It is not irrelevant - it is in fact very relevant. You say that in a democracy people should be allowed freedom of speech, then why will you not answer the question which I will pose to you again as it is a question about freedom of speech in a democracy.

Should the KKK be allowed march through Harlem? If such a march was allowed would you expect it to go through peacefully?

If you will not answer this question then I think you should shut up about democracy, freedom of speech and the right of ANY legal organisation to to freedom of speech as it makes you a hypocrite.

hmmm

Ignore the provo apologists on this thread. Your assumption on the thread is correct - the government of this state authorised the parade/demonstration. As a state we failed in our duty to allow this parade to pass off peacefully, and it would be shameful if we allowed a bunch of thugs and bigots to dictate what can be done on our streets.

The content of the parade is irrelevent - it was approved, and we should make sure it goes ahead.

shuushh

i dont understand why they need Union Jacks and marching bands to protest,
its a silly march that doesn't really have much of a point to it and it is designed with the sole intent to provoke people with republican feelings but sure as you said we live in a democratic society so I will give them their march and I would be willing to attend the protest and stick up for their right to protest in our capital city

and also another thing now that we Dubliners have seen what rioting looks like when its right on your doorstep I think it will show us how pathethic and disgusting those rioting against the publication of cartoons is aswell

Sam Vimes

if the next march is by the FAIR group then i'm all for it. ill go out and stand on the sidelines and support them all the way. of course i'd prefer if they let in all victims of violence rather than just one side.

but this march wasn't for victims of violence and we all know it. they wanted to march through our streets to show how much they hate us. as william shatner says "i can't get behind that"

Sand

Should the KKK be allowed march through Harlem? If such a march was allowed would you expect it to go through peacefully?

Yes, assuming the parade and its content did not breach laws against incitement of hatred or incitement to violence. Neo-Nazis and the KKK regularly march in the US and Europe.

Would it go through peacefully? Probably counter demonstrators would attempt to visit violence upon marchers they hate, but law enforcement would and do police these marches and arrest rioters. Again, freedom implies the right to disagree and the state is obliged to protect this right.

BTW the Love Ulster march was led by old men and women on crutches...not exactly the skinheads theyre being portrayed as. Love Ulster are not the KKK and Dublin is not Harlem.

Your point caller?

Sam Vimes

murphaph wrote:

Axer, give up on the KKK through Harlem question. I'm not gonna answer it because it's pathetic and irrelevant whatabboutery. OUR government who WE elect decided the FAIR march would be legal. A mob decided that our votes count for nothing and that the decision of OUR government didn't suit them.

Back on topic,
I'd imagine a summer date might bring more unionists south, though many may stay away even if invited given what has happened.

just calling an argument pathetic doesn't make it so. i think its a valid point. the kkk is legal and if they wanted to march through harlem the government would almost certainly have to let them. of course, they claim their organisation isn't about any other races but about being proud of being white. you'd have to wonder why they'd want to march in a black area.
in the same way you have to wonder why people who love ulster don't just march in ulster. i don't care that they love ulster. it has nothing to do with me or anyone down here. if they want to show their love of ulster they should march in ulster.


just because we voted for the government doesn't mean we have to agree with everything they do in office. that's kind of missing the point of democracy. i'm appalled at the opportunistic scumbaggery that took place yesterday but i would have been equally appalled if there was no counter protest to this hate march

Snickers Man

Marching through a main shopping thorughfare in an orderly manner, across a route approved by the authorities to a pre-arranged point where speeches may be made and petitions handed over is a fundamental right in a democracy.

However much we may dissaprove of the marchers, they followed the law to the letter in organising this march. They should have been let proceed with it and if they stepped out of line they should have been dealt with by the law.

It was not a good day for the Gardai. I don't blame them for the violence. I do blame them for the fact that it got out of hand so quickly and that the rioters effectively won.

They stopped the march going ahead.
They made **** of the city.
They will probably succeed in producing a much more violent and intolerant attitude among policemen.

The loyalists, too, were able to make a point that will bring them much satisfaction. That the Irish government cannot control the extremist elements in its own society to the point where legitimate political protest can be stifled.

The march should be rearranged and properly policed next time.

But only a complete prat would suggest that it take place to coincide with the 90th anniversary of 1916. It would be like organising a 'Free David Irving' march down Whitehall (the London one) to coincide with Armistice Day.

Sir Oxman

hmmm wrote:

Ignore the provo apologists on this thread. Your assumption on the thread is correct - the government of this state authorised the parade/demonstration. As a state we failed in our duty to allow this parade to pass off peacefully, and it would be shameful if we allowed a bunch of thugs and bigots to dictate what can be done on our streets.

The content of the parade is irrelevent - it was approved, and we should make sure it goes ahead.

I haven't heard anyone apologising for the PIRA on this thread.

I've agreed with some points here by pro-FAIR march people, it is a conundrum but my main point is that I believe the wrong decision was made and inadequate security was provided...and that's not in hindsight.
The very same Govt elected on our behalf which gave the go ahead for this march, patently did not think iot through and as a result left a lot of ordinary Dubliners and residents of our capital at risk.

Sam Vimes

Sand wrote:

BTW the Love Ulster march was led by old men and women on crutches...not exactly the skinheads theyre being portrayed as. Love Ulster are not the KKK and Dublin is not Harlem.

Your point caller?

yes, those people were in the front so that they could make the very argument you just made. everyone behind them were members of groups that exist solely to hate the people whose streets they were marching on. did you ever go to loveulster.com before it was shut down? it was reminiscent of stormfront.org.

murphaph

Commander Vimes wrote:

just calling an argument pathetic doesn't make it so. i think its a valid point. the kkk is legal and if they wanted to march through harlem the government would almost certainly have to let them. just because we voted for the government doesn't mean we have to agree with everything they do in office. that's kind of missing the point of democracy. i'm appalled at the opportunistic scumbaggery that took place yesterday but i would have been equally appalled if there was no counter protest to this hate march

I never said we have to agree with what our government decides. I said quite simply that we elect them to make decisions and if we're not happy with the decisions they make we can vote for someone else next time. If you want to debate axer's KKK thru Harlem point, fire ahead. It's pretty much all he's got though.

Sam Vimes

murphaph wrote:

I never said we have to agree with what our government decides. I said quite simply that we elect them to make decisions and if we're not happy with the decisions they make we can vote for someone else next time. If you want to debate axer's KKK thru Harlem point, fire ahead. It's pretty much all he's got though.

the point is that i don't want to wait three years or whatever to voice my dissatisfaction with the government. you're saying that the march was approved by the government so we should just have let it go ahead. doesn't that effectively make the right to protest pointless? if all we do is say "ooo that pissed me off. just wait until 2008. ill show them"

baring in mind i don't support any of the violence from yesterday

Snickers Man

axer wrote:

Should the KKK be allowed march through Harlem? If such a march was allowed would you expect it to go through peacefully?

You're being very stupid. The rule of law, which is essential for any democracy, does make allowances for the application of common sense and the finding of a balance between the right to protest and assemble peacefully and the likely effects on inflaming local tensions.

Comparing a march through the business district of Dublin with a march by a bunch of white supremacists through a black neigbourhood is not comparing apples with apples.Yes the KKK should be allowed to march through a suitable area of New York, (ie NOT Harlem) adequately policed and if any of their banners or speeches infringe laws against race hatred or incitement to violence, then the perpetrators should be arrested.

I reckon that if I can march on a Bloody Sunday Commemoration through London, (and I have) protected by the Metropolitan police from a baying mob of NF/BNP skinheads out to cause trouble, (and I was) then loyalists have the right to march PEACEFULLY through Central Dublin.

Your analogy with Harlem doesn't work.

BTW, you do know that in the 1970s, the Anti Nazi League used to chant at the National Front during their rallies 'Come and march in Brixton'. I think they were fairly confiedent that the local black population would be more than a match for them.

Sir Oxman

Commander Vimes wrote:

yes, those people were in the front so that they could make the very argument you just made. everyone behind them were members of groups that exist solely to hate the people whose streets they were marching on. did you ever go to loveulster.com before it was shut down? it was reminiscent of stormfront.org.

Oh that's a pity. I wanted to have a look. Though maybe it's offline for bandwidth reasons (as stated in the error msg?)
I'd imagine a lot of people are trying to have a gawk.

Sand

yes, those people were in the front so that they could make the very argument you just made. everyone behind them were members of groups that exist solely to hate the people whose streets they were marching on. did you ever go to loveulster.com before it was shut down? it was reminiscent of stormfront.org.

Ive seen the photos of the Love Ulster parade as it set up getting ready to march - all it was was those old folks at the front, some parade bands, and a few union jacks and what looked like an orange lodge banner. Harmless enough, and certainly no violence came from them.

I contrasted that with the republican counter demonstrators with their "Remember Bloody Sunday" banners all dressed in heavy coats, covering their faces and looking like complete and utter scumbags. Who started the rioting again? Those patriots wasnt it? Pure scum.

As for LoveUlster.com, eh....who cares? Dont you get it? It doesnt matter if you dont like the view held by the marchers, they still have the right to express it peacefully. There are limits on free exspression, but none of them are "expressing unpopular views is illegal".