When should the FAIR march be rescheduled for?

murphaph

catholicireland wrote:

I had a post here but it was deleted. And talk about freedom of speech!

You mean this one? :rolleyes:

diddler

What the Pat Finucane centre has to say about FAIR:

In a press statement the Pat Finucane Centre has criticised Families Acting for Innocent Relatives (FAIR) accusing the S.Armagh organisation of "attempting to create a hierarchy of 'good' and 'bad' victims and by implication a hierarchy of 'innocent' and 'guilty' relatives." Earlier this week FAIR announced a campaign for all 'genuine' victims and called for an end to the early release of prisoners. Martin Finucane from the PFC slammed the " hypocrisy of those who call for an end to prisoner releases whilst exempting those who killed 'republicans'. At the launch of FAIR spokesman Brian Mc Connell stated that those convicted of killing 'republicans' should be released and added that such individuals were deserving of a medal from the government."

The PFC statement continued, " Even more galling is the attempt by FAIR and Mc Connell to imply that some relatives are 'innocent' while others, such as the Loughgall relatives, are somehow 'guilty' by association. It must be made clear that all relatives are by definition innocent, whether those of RUC officers, British soldiers, members of the IRA, UVF or UDA. There is no such thing as a guilty relative.

Brian Mc Connell is himself an innocent relative. This holds true irregardless of the fact that his uncle, Robert Mc Connell, a member of the UDR who was killed by the IRA in 1976, was one of the four main suspects in the worst atrocity of the past 30 years, the bombing of Dublin and Monaghan in 1974. Thirty three people died in the combined car bomb attacks. Robert Mc Connell, who was named in the First Tuesday television documentary into the bombings as one of the main suspects, was also suspected of involvement in a series of sectarian assassinations in the mid 1970s. Given Robert Mc Connell's alleged role as a mass murderer and sectarian assassin it ill behoves his nephew to talk of 'genuine' victims and innocent relatives as if to suggest that one particular group in this society has emerged from the past thirty bloody years with clean hands and a monopoly on Old Testament righteousness." Martin Finucane, brother of murdered Belfast solicitor Pat Finucane, told the Irish News, "all victims have a right to be remembered equally. It is time that FAIR, the DUP and their friends in the Tory right wing who wish to sabotage the Good Friday Agreement realised this simple truth. FAIR recently met Conservative MP Andrew Mackay who did not feel it necessary to break off his holiday in the wake of the Omagh bombing. Andrew Mackay MP is exploiting the emotions of those relatives opposed to the present peace process in order to make cheap political points. FAIR has the right to campaign for recognition and better compensation. The group does not have the right to malign, insult and marginalise others who have lost loved ones. Grief does not differentiate between a lost child on the streets of Dublin, a lost brother at Loughgall, or indeed a lost uncle as is the case with Brian Mc Connell. The self righteous and arrogant contribution of FAIR to the discussion around victims has done nothing to secure better understanding of the real human problems faced by those represented by the group.

http://www.serve.com/pfc/weekly/inu19feb99.htm

FAIR planned to carry a banner in honour of Robert Mc Connell, the aforementioned suspected DUBLIN BOMBER. Why was that deemed to be acceptable in the city he quite possibly murdered many people in? It's not like no-one knew about it. Gerry Ryan discussed the matter well in advance.
Seems to me someone should be answering that question.

axer

murphaph wrote:

Hmmm, I wonder would you say that if you were prevented from airing your views. Freedom of speech means defending the right of people you totally disagree with to say their peace in the manner of thir choosing, not on your terms.

There is a difference between airing one's views and trying to provoke people/cause trouble.

murphaph

axer wrote:

There is a difference between airing one's views and trying to provoke people/cause trouble.

You believe it to be provoking which you are free to do. It wouldn't provoke me or most of the populace because I wouldn't bother going in to it because I have better things to do with my time than go out of my way to be offended.

Now, even if the march is very provoking, it's no more so that say, youth defence showing pictures of aborted foetuses to all passers by outside the GPO, but as much as I despise youth defence, I defend their right to freedom of (in my opinon some very provokng) speech. That's all I ask of you to do too.

gurramok

murphaph wrote:

You believe it to be provoking which you are free to do. It wouldn't provoke me or most of the populace because I wouldn't bother going in to it because I have better things to do with my time than go out of my way to be offended.

Most of the populace didn't even know an Orange march was planned yesterday hence my suspicion that the authorites tried to sneak it through with lack of publicity hence lack of interest from the public.
A march of hate yesterday is bound to provoke a reaction from the population they hate which hundreds of young people fell for yesterday.

murphaph wrote:

Now, even if the march is very provoking, it's no more so that say, youth defence showing pictures of aborted foetuses to all passers by outside the GPO, but as much as I despise youth defence, I defend their right to freedom of (in my opinon some very provokng) speech. That's all I ask of you to do too.

Youth defence don't hate everyone who has a different point of view. I intensely dislike YD point of view but they don't wish me an early funeral singing songs about up to their neck in fenian blood unlike the proposed marchers and their 6 sectarian Orange bands in red military uniform yesterday.

Freelancer

axer wrote:

There is a difference between airing one's views and trying to provoke people/cause trouble.

Really and what was SF's goal is succeeding to make "a nation once again" the greatest song ever written? Sod musical appreciation listening to a bunch a bearded sods singing out this sod is better than the Sex Pistols or the Stones? C'mon...........

SeanW wrote:

That seems very clear yet your response is to accuse me of hypocrisy and refute arguments I never made presumably so that your ridiculous rebuttal will be the only thing to stand.

Nope I stand by the claim. You've made suggestions about limits to free speech considering where you are, and wear an av talking about freedom of speech, Pick a point and stick with it.....

Freelancer

gurramok wrote:

Youth defence don't hate everyone who has a different point of view. I intensely dislike YD point of view but they don't wish me an early funeral singing songs about up to their neck in fenian blood unlike the proposed marchers and their 6 sectarian Orange bands in red military uniform yesterday.

YD have links to anti abortion groups that have commited 1700 attacks on doctors nurses and admin staff involved in abortions, theres freedom of expression in action.

gurramok

Freelancer wrote:

YD have links to anti abortion groups that have commited 1700 attacks on doctors nurses and admin staff involved in abortions, theres freedom of expression in action.

Where, in Ireland or are you quoting those figures worldwide???
AFAIK, YD are Irish based with couple hundred members who hate a profession of people not the general populace.
An Orange march with 6 sectarian bands yesterday hates about 90% of the population that are Catholic and anything remotely Irish in ROI rather than, are we supposed to judge that every single person of that 90% is supposed to react peacefully to provocation?

Freelancer

gurramok wrote:

Where, in Ireland or are you quoting those figures worldwide???
AFAIK, YD are Irish based with couple hundred members who hate a profession of people not the general populace

Yeah cause that happened in Ireland, thats a US fact. The fact remains UD supports such an organisation(s)

An Orange march with 6 sectarian bands yesterday hates about 90% of the population that are Catholic and anything remotely Irish in ROI rather than, are we supposed to judge that every single person of that 90% is supposed to react peacefully to provocation?

Seriousky whats your f*cking pointing that they could have be violent ergo the violence from dubs was okay. Seriously? They hate us, so it's okay we hate them? Thats your point?

samb

catholicireland wrote:

What i say is that if there is even the chance of the same carry-on as what happined on saturday then it should not go ahead. It is a joke to say that the orange men should be allowed near Dublin again!

One point that republicans have failed to notice here is that if they want a united Ireland they will have to share that country with loyalists. Shouldn't we get used to them now or are we going to become the oppressors. The march was about thier beliefs it was not an attack on others.

88.4% of Irish people are roman catholic, and falling.

murphaph

gurramok wrote:

Most of the populace didn't even know an Orange march was planned yesterday hence my suspicion that the authorites tried to sneak it through with lack of publicity hence lack of interest from the public.
A march of hate yesterday is bound to provoke a reaction from the population they hate which hundreds of young people fell for yesterday.

Firstly, it wasn't an Orange Order march. There were 6 flute bands present, none of them were OO bands. They would play at OO marches but they are not OO bands and this march had nothing to do with the OO, though I'm sure many OO members were present.

Secondly, this march has been very well publicised in the print, radio and TV media. How much more coverage would you expect? I dare say anyone who reads a newspaper would have been perfectly aware of this parade, and a paltry few hundred turned up to boo it, ergo most of the >>4 million populace couldn't give a toss about the march.

gurramok wrote:

Youth defence don't hate everyone who has a different point of view. I intensely dislike YD point of view but they don't wish me an early funeral singing songs about up to their neck in fenian blood unlike the proposed marchers and their 6 sectarian Orange bands in red military uniform yesterday.

YD make provoking dpeeches-that was your original beef, so let's not start moving the goalposts. YD provoke and I hate them but defend their right to provoke by uttering their free speeches, that's all I ask of you to do wrt these NI marchers.

catholicireland

catholicireland wrote:

I had a post here but it was deleted. And talk about freedom of speech!

No post of yours was deleted on this thread so dont be telling lies.

gurramok

murphaph wrote:

Firstly, it wasn't an Orange Order march. There were 6 flute bands present, none of them were OO bands. They would play at OO marches but they are not OO bands and this march had nothing to do with the OO, though I'm sure many OO members were present.

Secondly, this march has been very well publicised in the print, radio and TV media. How much more coverage would you expect? I dare say anyone who reads a newspaper would have been perfectly aware of this parade, and a paltry few hundred turned up to boo it, ergo most of the >>4 million populace couldn't give a toss about the march.


YD make provoking dpeeches-that was your original beef, so let's not start moving the goalposts. YD provoke and I hate them but defend their right to provoke by uttering their free speeches, that's all I ask of you to do wrt these NI marchers.

Firstly, it has been described in mainstream media as an Orange Order march. Some described it as a loyalist march, hardly a victims march.
You admit that OO members are present, fact is the majority of them(from RTE news plus my own and many eyewitness account of the 300 or so gathered) were dressed up in red military uniform with flutes/lambeg drums ready to play sectarian tunes, they were hardly going to play the latest pop tunes were they?
It just so happens that 6 sectarian flute bands from an unknown organisation comprising over 200 members gather for a march which had nothing to do with Orangeism?..Pull the other leg.
Anything or anyone connected with Orange Order under any name is sectarian in nature due to their hatred of anything or anyone Catholic, they bar Catholic membership, they bar their members from associating with Catholics.
Catholic and 'anyone that is not loyalist' victims are hardly welcome at this march, they are hated by them.

Secondly, this march was not majorly publicised. It was never mentioned in main bulletins until the Saturday morning in mainstream media, it occupied a minor teletext page on RTE, it was a little snippet of a few lines hidden amongst adverts in newspapers the day before.
I stand by the view that many people did not know this was taking place, at least 46 people (from my own work/friends/relatives in Dublin, yes i did count them) did not know it was taking place.

If you were there yesterday, many shoppers who were caught up in events hadn't a clue an Orange march was due to take place down their streets.

Comparing YD to OO is like comparing apples and oranges excuse the pun.
The OO hate a whole religion of people no matter what nationality and hate anything distinctly Irish in nature.
Marches of hate whether its OO/Nazi/KKK should not be allowed IMHO.

axer

murphaph wrote:

and a paltry few hundred turned up to boo it, ergo most of the >>4 million populace couldn't give a toss about the march.

Just because some people decided to ignore the march doesn't mean that they "couldn't give a toss about the march.". I wouldn't expect everyone in Ireland who gave "a toss about the march" to travel to O'Connell street just to boo it.

Diorraing

catholicireland wrote:

They should neverbe allowed near Dublin again, it was a terrible mistake to allow them to march in the first place.
The idea of allowing this whole fiasco to take place again is mad, I can never see it happening. What would be the point? Ok, we can go on about freedom of speech, but even if there was the slightest chance of a repeat of saturday then it would simply be not worth it.

Also, from what I saw on the news of this so called "love ulster" march, all I could see was orange men in their orange uniform with drums etc. Exactly the same as an orange parade!

I disagree. What differs us (and makes us better) than Unionists is that we are prepared to grant people their civil rights. If we start banning their right to free speech, then we are as evil as they were for so long. It would be hypocritic of us to complain about the human rights abuses that the Unionists carried out while at the same time denying them their fundamental rights.
Having said that, I think that FAIR are unbelievably pathetic organising this march. Anyone who thinks they weren't looking for trouble is deluding himself. I agree with the general consensus in this thread that a rally commemorating all the victims of the troubles should be held to show its sincerity
I think the FAIR march lost its credibility when marching bands were invited. Unionist marching bands commemorate "Croppies lie down" and the oppression of the Irish. There is no need for such bands in a protest about the victims of the troubles, indeed I believe that it contradicts the whole purpose.

ronbyrne2005

gurramok -what evidence have you that these people(orange men,love ulster people) hate all us catholic southerners?

ronbyrne2005

Diorraing wrote:

. Anyone who thinks they weren't looking for trouble is deluding himself.

maybe they were looking for trouble but whether or not they were they were certainly given trouble by the crowd down here,the protestors lowered themselves to the alleged standards of the orangemen/unionists/loyalists.

why cant anyone on this island march peacefully in the largest city on this island? republicans are just intolerant easily offended louts who live in the past and shout hysterically of 800 years of oppresion while crying selectively about civil rights abuses

oscarBravo

ishmael whale wrote:

We're secure enough in our own belief in the Republic not to mind seeing the Union Jack flying in our streets. Others are not.

I remember being at the Dublin Horse Show a few years ago, with the Union flag flying, and standing for "God Save the Queen". I didn't spontaneously combust.

Elmo wrote:

IMO Wearing your national flag is disrespectful to that flag.

This I agree with.

Voipjunkie

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

maybe they were looking for trouble but whether or not they were they were certainly given trouble by the crowd down here,the protestors lowered themselves to the alleged standards of the orangemen/unionists/loyalists.

why cant anyone on this island march peacefully in the largest city on this island? republicans are just intolerant easily offended louts who live in the past and shout hysterically of 800 years of oppresion while crying selectively about civil rights abuses

This is not true any republicans I know believed that the march should have been allowed to proceed and what happened yesterday played into the hands of groups like FAIR.
The people who went on a rampage yesterday are not republicans they have no concept of what Irish republicanism means.
The fact that 3 of the people arrested yesterday for rioting were from Latvia proves that the people involved in this riot yesterday were not politically motivated they were people taking advantage and looting.

I am an Irish republican and I find the FAIR organisation and the agenda behind it of suggesting that one set of victims of the conflict are innocent and obviously by extension the other set are "guilty" to be highly offensive However in a democracy everyone is allowed to have their say no matter how wrong they are.

sceptre

Rather than let this thread meander along when there's another thread discussing the exact same thing with the exact same people saying the exact same things, which is doubtless enthralling to read, I'm closing this one as it's long served its purpose.