carling cup final(man utd v wigan)contains scores

Hobart

Triton wrote:

Pot. Kettle. Black. That's my three word contribution.

Oh!!! A Rabble, ffs :rolleyes:.

Jivin Turkey

PHB wrote:

If somebody does not agree with you it does not mean he is winding you up, no matter how much you think he is wrong. I have my opinions on football and I think i'm right most of the time.
I assume Hobart called me a troll or something, don't know have him on ignore, if you feel the same about me, I suggest you do the same.

I never said you were not entitled to your opinion. Of course you are. If people say things though which are so completely far-fetched they may well be on a wind up mission. It would not be uncommon around here.

I don't think you are trolling to be honest. I don't think you ever do. I just think you are having a gross attack of the rose tinted ones.

PHB wrote:

Rooney is a great striker, and a huge potential for the future. What he isn't is a wing forward in the lines of Ronaldo or Duff or Robben. This can been seen very easily if you watch him when he has played in that position for United, and was quite ineffectual. Sure he made lots of clas runs all the way up the pitch, but he does from corners when he'd be back anyway. On the whole he is ineffectual in that position, and his position is that inside a 4-4-1-1, playing the deep striker who drops back. He would not fit into the a 4-3-3, and hasn't in the past.

I could dig up posts of you saying the complete opposite last year. I can guarantee it. Unfortunately I'm in work at the moment and don't have the time.

Last year, and at the beginning of this season, you harped on ad nauseum about United and their 4-3-3 system, with Rooney wide. You weren't short of praise for his performances then.

I think even Eamonn Dunphy would be proud of this U-turn to suit your current argument.

PHB wrote:

Ronaldo, as you can imagine we will disagree one again and again and again
I rate him as one of the best prospects in the world and I think his recent form is once again showing his talents. He is nowhere near consistant enough yet, as all will accept, but he has more talent than any of the Chelsea wingers, perhaps bar Robben.

Ronaldo is now 21. It's about time people stopped talking about him as a prospect or someone with potential and started talking about how good he actually is now. In his three years at United he has not put in consistently solid performances for a period of longer than a few weeks. While you can't argue with his goals tally over the last four games, he still hasn't done that well. In the CC final his crossing was abysmal. I was counting. Five attempts in the first half alone (I forgot to count the second) that were no where near a team mate.

He doesn't have more talent than Cole, Duff or SWP, he is just a showboater. He may look like a classier player, as the other three are just direct runners. But the other three have proven themselves to be far more consistent performers than Ronaldo, over the years and are just all round better players.

PHB wrote:

Cole, while getting much better, is still not of the quality of Robben Duff or Ronaldo. There is something missing in his game, and I'm not sure what it is. I think he is being carried by Chelsea atm, and I don't know if he will be shown up. That said, he has consistantly proved me wrong again and again, so I expect him to do as again.

Up until the arrival of Jose Mourinho, Cole was wasting away. Over the last 18 months he has turned in good performance after good performance. He has scored goals at vital times in big games. This is the level that Ronaldo should be aiming for. If he could be as good and consistent as Cole, even just in attack (even Cole offers far more in defence than I think Ronaldo ever will), then we could have a basis for discussion. But he is not.

A couple of goals have saved face for Ronaldo for a while, and to be fair a total of 10 so far this season is a decent return, but I would bet we will see him go off the boil again before the season ends.

gracehopper

As a United fan. I'd much rather have Duff on my team than Ronaldo. But i'd pick Ronaldo before i'd pick Joe Cole for the simple reason that i think he's a better player. Joe Cole is what 25? 26? he still has that "player for the future" tag and whatever anyone else says he has been equally inconsistent for chelsea as Ronaldo has been for Man Utd over the last couple of years.

United dont need good prospects they need players that are going to stand up and win trophies for the club this season and the next not in 5 years time.

An interesting thing Rafa Benitez pointed about Arsenal when they played a couple of weeks ago. He said "As a football manager it is dangerous to look too far into the future. Thats what Wenger has done and to a certain extent its also what fergie has done. Ronaldo and joe Cole wont win a title for a club but the likes of Duff, Rooney, Gerard, Lampard will.

PHB

I could dig up posts of you saying the complete opposite last year. I can guarantee it. Unfortunately I'm in work at the moment and don't have the time.

Last year, and at the beginning of this season, you harped on ad nauseum about United and their 4-3-3 system, with Rooney wide. You weren't short of praise for his performances then.

I don't deny he played well there, but you can see from his preformances this year he is infintly better in the center.

Ronaldo in all his time at United, has always played very strongly in the second half of the season. He did it last season, and the season before, and he is starting to do it this season.
He has had a troublesome start of the year, and has now moven on, and begun to preform as he can.

p.s.
United have always based their teams on youth teams, we don't buy the finish product almost ever, and when we do they normally fail. We can't compete with Chelsea in their way, we must compete in our way.

Hobart

PHB wrote:

I don't deny he played well there, but you can see from his preformances this year he is infintly better in the center.

Ronaldo in all his time at United, has always played very strongly in the second half of the season. He did it last season, and the season before, and he is starting to do it this season.
He has had a troublesome start of the year, and has now moven on, and begun to preform as he can.

p.s.
United have always based their teams on youth teams, we don't buy the finish product almost ever, and when we do they normally fail. We can't compete with Chelsea in their way, we must compete in our way.

I think you have hit the nail on the head there. It's exactly that he only performs for half a season, albeit to his potential, that he could not in any way be compared to the likes of rooney/cole/duff/robben etc... You are talking about two teams who are trying to compete at the very highest level in world football. Somebody who performs to their potential for only half a season/latter part of a season. is not worthy of their place.

ianomccabe

Hobart wrote:

I think you have hit the nail on the head there. It's exactly that he only performs for half a season, albeit to his potential, that he could not in any way be compared to the likes of rooney/cole/duff/robben etc... You are talking about two teams who are trying to compete at the very highest level in world football. Somebody who performs to their potential for only half a season/latter part of a season. is not worthy of their place.

Agree 100%

TheMonster

Hobart wrote:

I think you have hit the nail on the head there. It's exactly that he only performs for half a season, albeit to his potential, that he could not in any way be compared to the likes of rooney/cole/duff/robben etc... You are talking about two teams who are trying to compete at the very highest level in world football. Somebody who performs to their potential for only half a season/latter part of a season. is not worthy of their place.

Correct me if I 'm wrong but don't think Joe Cole has been playing to his potential for very long. Duff certainly hasn't performed for Chelsea this year.

BTW - you will be waiting a long time for a reply from PHB(see above)

Hobart

TheMonster wrote:

Correct me if I 'm wrong but don't think Joe Cole has been playing to his potential for very long. Duff certainly hasn't performed for Chelsea this year.

BTW - you will be waiting a long time for a reply from PHB(see above)

PHB can have a hissy fit all he wants and put me on ignore, it's just an extra click for him everytime he comes onto a thread I have posted in. I've actually taken him off ignore and added him to my buddy list (it does serve a purpose ).

PHB is a guy who said that Forlan had a strike rate of something like 2 goals every 3 games when he was with Manu (this is despite been shown that he was clearly wrong). PHB's "footballing" knowledge is summed up in that comment for me.

As for Joe Cole, there is no doubt that he "swung the proverbial...." in his early times as a chelsea player. It was embarrasing to see Jose publically rebuke him and tell him to shape up or ship out. The difference is that he has been managed by Jose and has turned his career around.

Ronaldo, on the other hand, has still continued to show his lack of commitment to the "team" and his petulance sometimes is astounding. I will admit that his performances of late have showed an improvment, but as PHB has correctly pointed out he has a habit of only performing at the latter stages of any season. Not good enough in my opinion.

dirkey_wynne

Hobart wrote:

I think you have hit the nail on the head there. It's exactly that he only performs for half a season, albeit to his potential, that he could not in any way be compared to the likes of rooney/cole/duff/robben etc... You are talking about two teams who are trying to compete at the very highest level in world football. Somebody who performs to their potential for only half a season/latter part of a season. is not worthy of their place.

Erm, while i would agree with you saying it's not good enough for Ronaldo to be playing to his potential for only half a season, likewise, implying that Duff, Cole or Robben have is absurd. Robben has had an extremely poor season in my opinion - witness Mourinho stating he needed more from him recently. Cole has had quite a good season I think, but Duff certainly hasn't. So to state that these 3 have performed at full potential for more than half a season is wrong, in my opinion. Perhaps Cole has.

Fighting Irish

Hobart wrote:

PHB can have a hissy fit all he wants and put me on ignore, it's just an extra click for him everytime he comes onto a thread I have posted in. I've actually taken him off ignore and added him to my buddy list (it does serve a purpose ).

PHB is a guy who said that Forlan had a strike rate of something like 2 goals every 3 games when he was with Manu (this is despite been shown that he was clearly wrong). PHB's "footballing" knowledge is summed up in that comment for me.

As for Joe Cole, there is no doubt that he "swung the proverbial...." in his early times as a chelsea player. It was embarrasing to see Jose publically rebuke him and tell him to shape up or ship out. The difference is that he has been managed by Jose and has turned his career around.

Ronaldo, on the other hand, has still continued to show his lack of commitment to the "team" and his petulance sometimes is astounding. I will admit that his performances of late have showed an improvment, but as PHB has correctly pointed out he has a habit of only performing at the latter stages of any season. Not good enough in my opinion.

Isn't ronaldo still young, wisdom comes with age. I would put ronaldo on a team before joe cole anyday.

Hobart

dirkey_wynne wrote:

Erm, while i would agree with you saying it's not good enough for Ronaldo to be playing to his potential for only half a season, likewise, implying that Duff, Cole or Robben have is absurd. Robben has had an extremely poor season in my opinion - witness Mourinho stating he needed more from him recently. Cole has had quite a good season I think, but Duff certainly hasn't. So to state that these 3 have performed at full potential for more than half a season is wrong, in my opinion. Perhaps Cole has.

Both Duff and Robben have had injury issues this season, so they have been out for some games. Aswell as that you are not comparing like with like. Chelsea have a squad bursting with players. There is competition for every single place on the pitch coming from quality players. Robben, as is well recognised now, is not a fan of the rotational system employed by Jose. Yes he has expressed issues in the past about it and has been frustrated, but I would not agree that he has only performed for half or the latter part of the season.

Now look at Manu. Their problems in defence and mid-field are well documented. You have a player of the potential of Ronaldo. They are 3 or 4 players off a squad of quality players. And yet he only performs for the "latter part of the season"? This is reprehensible imo. He should be putting in a performance which benifits the team, ala Rooney, Gary etc... Not prancing around like a headless chicken doing 40 odd stepovers a game. Look at some of his performances earlier this season, both in the PL and the CL.

Fighting Irish wrote:

Isn't ronaldo still young, wisdom comes with age. I would put ronaldo on a team before joe cole anyday.

No. Not by todays standards. He has had what, 5 maybe 6 years of professional soccer under his belt. He has the privelage of playing for one of the best clubs in the world. and yet he decides to perform to his potential only in the latter half of the season. He should be given one more chance, and if he has a season wherby he is not performing, he should be sold or sacked.

astrofool

Hobart wrote:

Both Duff and Robben have had injury issues this season, so they have been out for some games.

Ronaldo had his father die, and was the centre of rape allegations. Better/worse than an injury?

ZENER

I don't think you're being fair to the guy. How could he possibly be able to play to his best with a rape accusation over him and his father dying ? He's a young lad in a relatively new country/culture being accused by complete strangers of rape. I don't care how much someone gets paid that stuff must effect his performance and commitment, he's human after all.

Only recently the rape case has gone away but he would still be wondering why someone would want to do this to him. To top it all his dad dies before he is cleared of the rape !! Whatever you expect of him on the pitch you must expect that it will be effected by life off of it.

He is clearly capable of great things but my opinion is that it's not going to be with ManU. He is better suited to Spain or maybe is home country, Portugal. In 4 or 5 years time he will be strong enough mentally to come back to the premiership.

ZEN

Lemlin

Duff, Robben and Ronaldo have all been inconsistent this season.

One left winger who hasn't is Morten Gamst Pedersen. He's scored against the big teams (Man United, Arsenal) and the poor (Portsmouth) and he's performed well for Rovers all season. He also showed his promise towards the end of last season when he got his chance and I can't wait to see him next year (hopefully he'll still be at Blackburn).