Dublin Riots as an excuse to attack working-class people

A Dub in Glasgo

seamus wrote:

Did I say that?

Maybe, clarification required though. Majority? Some? All? Minority?

'Sinn Féin's only real support came from the "working class" areas'....

seamus

Sorry clarification, the bulk of Sinn Féin's support came from those areas, where a higher proportion of people happened to vote Sinn Féin in comparision to other more traditionally affluent areas. That's not saying (and I don't believe) that all of Sinn Féin's supporters are scumbags.

Akrasia

Commander Vimes wrote:

that article mentions anarchist organisations. isn't that an oxymoron?

no. it's not. Anarchists are highly organised when we want to be. Anarchists are opposed to heirarchy, not organisation.

seamus

Akrasia wrote:

no. it's not. Anarchists are highly organised when we want to be. Anarchists are opposed to heirarchy, not organisation.

But doesn't organisation inherently require some form of authoritarian structure and purpose, thereby offending puritan anarchy?

(OT here btw).

That is, Anarchists don't spontaneously find themselves all in the same room at the same time, nodding their heads in agreement. Someone has to take charge.

fly_agaric

seamus wrote:

There are people in Darndale earning more than GPs.

There are people living in Dublin's "posher" areas who have no money. Great.

You are just engaging in sophistry, zooming in close when people (incl. yourself of course) are discussing generalities.

Anyway, nobody in Dublin is really poor if you want to define poverty at 3rd world levels, or even just at the level of Ireland 50 years ago. It's all good in our meritocratic state where everyone gets just what they deserve.:)

seamus wrote:

If you were saying that what would have typically been 1980s-early 90s working class areas, then I for one have never hidden my belief that a higher proportion of scum come from those areas. I don't tar them all with the same brush, but looking at the last general election, Sinn Féin's only real support came from the "working class" areas, and for the last ten years while the rest of us have been realising that the North is eating itself, they have only themselves to blame, the "working class" areas have still been chanting and fighting in the name of some long-dead soldiers who would turn in their graves at the sight of the ill-bred moronic monkeys who have no idea about Irish history past "Tiocfaidh ár la".

Do you really think "the North" is the main reason why SF support has grown so much in these places recently? Take Dub. Central constituency for example. Cabra was always a republican stronghold but I don't think even Cabra had SF councillors until recently. Now SF support in the entire constituency is so strong that it almost sent a TD to this Dáil and it is looking like they will send one to the next Dáil.

SF put in more effort in these areas than the other parties over the past decade or so and have reaped the reward now that, however objectionable they may be, they are not closely linked with blowing up and shooting people any more.*

(*edited before someone points out it was the IRA which actually did the blowing up and shooting...)

billy the squid

fly_agaric wrote:

You have the wrong end of the stick here. The person was advocating that the kids of the adult Dublin rioters/criminals be taken from them and put into state care. I could link to the post on that thread (on the TCD board) but I'm too lazy.



What are you replying to me for? I don't know what all that has to do with anything I wrote. I'd agree with most of what you wrote. Would you like a round of applause?

I was agreeing with the point being made concerning the hypocrisy of some of the suggestions on what should be done with the rioters (battling street thuggery with extreme right-wing policies).

I also found it especially ironic to see so much of this coming from a bunch of students (who are usually quite left-wing)! Just goes to show how a witnessing riot can change your perspective I suppose.

the first paragraph was directed to you, the restof the post was just my contribution to the thread and not directed in anyones direction. sorry if that was not clear.

Sand

Sorry clarification, the bulk of Sinn Féin's support came from those areas, where a higher proportion of people happened to vote Sinn Féin in comparision to other more traditionally affluent areas. That's not saying (and I don't believe) that all of Sinn Féin's supporters are scumbags.

Seriously, how else would you define people who vote for criminals and terrorists other than as scum? Do you consider voters for the BNP to be good decent upstanding people? Dont worry about offending Glasgo, he doesnt vote for SF.

gurramok

fly_agaric wrote:

Do you really think "the North" is the main reason why SF support has grown so much in these places recently? Take Dub. Central constituency for example. Cabra was always a republican stronghold but I don't think even Cabra had SF councillors until recently. Now SF support in the entire constituency is so strong that it almost sent a TD to this Dáil and it is looking like they will send one to the next Dáil.

SF put in more effort in these areas than the other parties over the past decade or so and have reaped the reward now that, however objectionable they may be, they are not closely linked with blowing up and shooting people any more.*

(*edited before someone points out it was the IRA which actually did the blowing up and shooting...)

Very true, SF give a sh!t about deprived areas unlike other parties. Its a sad reflection of how politicians are out of touch with a substantial section of cityfolk.
Alot of people in affluent areas live on a different cosy planet compared to alot of 'working-class' areas which cover vast swathes of the city.
You'd swear that when those cars were burned in Nassau Street that it was the first time the middle class had ever seen a car been burned.
Cars are burned every day in the suburbs with rampant anti-social behaviour that I must of witnessed a few hundred going up in smoke in my lifetime, no kidding.

DublinWriter

The Original Indymedia Article wrote:

The people who took part in the rioting were largely drawn from the urban poor, mostly disenfranchised young men from impoverished estates around Dublin

B*llocks, quite frankly. These people are not poor. Do you know how much a Kappa-top and/or Celtic jersey costs these days?

The rioters weren't working-class, they were underclass.

As for being 'disenfranchised young men from impoverished estates around Dublin', again b*llocks. Most were from the inner city. Have a walk around many of the flat complexes around the north inner-city. Any of those so-called flats would fetch 500K in the private market.

And as for being 'disenfranchised', if Chinese and Poles can travel half-way around the world to work here, then what's stopping some of our own people?

fly_agaric

gurramok wrote:

Very true, SF give a sh!t about deprived areas unlike other parties. Its a sad reflection of how politicians are out of touch with a substantial section of cityfolk.

I don't know if they give more of a crap really but maybe they are far hungrier for votes.
Instead of seeing an area where turnout is low as a somewhat of a waste of time they see it as an opportunity to win support by being active and taking populist stances on local issues.

billy the squid wrote:

the first paragraph was directed to you, the restof the post was just my contribution to the thread and not directed in anyones direction. sorry if that was not clear.

That makes more sense. I should have guessed it from the context.

Savman

HelterSkelter wrote:

I posted the below in response to many comments I've read on boards where people seem to be using the riots as an excuse to class all working class/people on the dole/people who wear track suits/football jerseys as scum. I'd like to hear people's opinions on this. Thanks.

Interesting, agree somewhat

pork99

I think the point about the scum underclass rioters is that they are a non-working class subsisting mainly through parasitism on working/middle class people (i.e. the productive members of society) through crime and welfare. As smart c--t David McWilliams put it

For all our talk about our great education system, new figures reveal that the indigenous Irish are the least skilled people in the workforce.

According to the ESRI, 32.9pc of Irish workers in the labour force are unskilled and uneducated. (This figure measures the amount of our workers who have left school at or before Junior Cert.)

This compares to only 3pc of our new immigrants from the EU.

As a group, these largely eastern Europeans are 10 times better educated than we are.

According to the ESRI, 87pc of other (non-EU) immigrants - mainly Chinese and Africans - are skilled, as opposed to only 67pc of us.

These are truly shocking comparisons, implying that, when the going gets tough, the greater skill level of the foreigners will ensure that they will be the ones who will weather the storm.

We have already seen the first signs of trouble as new figures reveal an alarming rise in unemployment among Irish school leavers in the past year or two.

Think about the following choice.

You are faced with two candidates for a basic manual job. One is an enthusiastic, well-turned out, numerate, multi-lingual Polish graduate; the other is a snarling, barely-literate local in full-tracksuit mufti, who left school before the Junior Cert.

Which one would you pick?

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=36&si=1570696&issue_id=13735

pork99

HelterSkelter wrote:

If I was to have the same viewpoint as you I would believe that all businessmen are parasites also, getting grants left right and centre, avoiding paying their fair share of tax through loopholes. IF they paid their fair share then I would not be screwed paying 42%. And the farmers, sure they're all a bunch of parasites as well, claiming benefits from the Government and EU, getting money for growing nothing in their fields, what a load of wasters.

Ludicrous

I've never heard of a farmer or business man threating people on the street or attempting to break into people's homes to help himself to their property.

HelterSkelter

pork99 wrote:

Ludicrous

I've never heard of a farmer or business man threating people on the street or attempting to break into people's homes to help himself to their property.

A percentage of self-employed/farmers/etc steal also but in different ways, i.e. by not paying their fair share of taxes, investing in offshore accounts, claiming benefits/grants they are not entitled to, etc. The point here is that people are more than willing to tar all working class people with the same brush even though it is a minority of these people that were involved in or support the riots.

HelterSkelter

HelterSkelter wrote:

A percentage of self-employed/farmers/etc steal also but in different ways, i.e. by not paying their fair share of taxes, investing in offshore accounts, claiming benefits/grants they are not entitled to, etc.

Also a tiny minority.

pork99

HelterSkelter wrote:

A percentage of self-employed/farmers/etc steal also but in different ways, i.e. by not paying their fair share of taxes, investing in offshore accounts, claiming benefits/grants they are not entitled to, etc. The point here is that people are more than willing to tar all working class people with the same brush even though it is a minority of these people that were involved in or support the riots.

I'm not condoning white collar crime - it needs to be treated as severely as any other kind. I am also not tarring all working class people with the same brush. I am from a working class background and believe me my family are certainly not in the same class as those scum rioting in O'Connell St. My point is that those people are NOT working class they are more of a criminal underclass.

HelterSkelter

pork99 wrote:

My point is that those people are NOT working class they are more of a criminal underclass.

Yeah I agree with you. My initial post was because of many comments I read on threads related to the riots which were attacking people on the dole, people who wear track suits and all the other stereotypes and linking them to the people involved in the riots.

Incidentally although I disagree with the riots I think they have been blown out of all proportion. There are much more serious issues in this country but they don't get half the media coverage this has.