Confusing remembrance of 1916

lostexpectation

the failed rising was an idealistic but bloodthirsty minority who didn't have popular backing at the time

so we're told, so why are people so keen to claim it as there own I just can't figure it out.

pretty much all the political parties have links to the time and the men its aims, every grouping has dismissed it and praised it at one time or another (apart from SF to varying degrees) and all there roles and positions have changed

apart from that who would want to disrupt it, SF are despised by so many in this country but no-one spontaneously or otherwise tried to disrupt their dress-up parade a few months ago?

does anyone know what other events are occuring on the 75th anniversary, i really can't find mention of anything other then the military parade...

Sand

does anyone know what other events are occuring on the 75th anniversary, i really can't find mention of anything other then the military parade...

Didnt they have a re-enactment there last Saturday?

gurramok

Sand wrote:

Didnt they have a re-enactment there last Saturday?

Yes, there was a enactment of a military parade last Saturday.
Extremists dressed in red military uniforms backed by 6 sectarian loyalist bands were parading at the Parnell Square & the Dail.

Cork

Sand wrote:

Didnt they have a re-enactment there last Saturday?

They had and digraced themselves before the eyes of the world.

But on the 1916 thing. We don't need it.

March 17th is our National Holiday. It is known worldwide.

Ireland has grown up since 1966 etc.

We are now a self confident nation and we don't need to bang the green drum or wrap the national flag around ourselves.

Why can't we have a Good Friday Agreement Day?
Celtic Tiger Day?
EU day?

We should be forward looking and thinking.

Hagar

The trouble with 1916 is that it is too recent. There are still too many people with direct family connections to the event in public office and too many open wounds in our society as a whole.

Many other countries celebrate "bloody events", such as the American Revolution, but enough time has not yet passed for the event to be associated with the birth of a nation not the death of a grandfather.

We shouldn't forget 1916, We shouldn't be ashamed of it. We should commemorate it.

The Irish Army have their roots in the Rising. They should not forget 1916. They would be marking the event on our behalf, so let us decide how it should be marked. We are not a military nation, our army's primary role is one of peacekeeping in foreign lands. Why not lay some emphasis on the positive role of an army? Highlight the change from the war we came from to the peace we maintain?

Mostly we should find a way to make it a cultural celebration. And for God's sake lets try to avoid the Paddy Whackery that goes hand in hand with St. Patrick's Day.

ateam

Cork wrote:

They had and digraced themselves before the eyes of the world.

But on the 1916 thing. We don't need it.

March 17th is our National Holiday. It is known worldwide.

Ireland has grown up since 1966 etc.

We are now a self confident nation and we don't need to bang the green drum or wrap the national flag around ourselves.

Why can't we have a Good Friday Agreement Day?
Celtic Tiger Day?
EU day?

We should be forward looking and thinking.

I suppose you think the commemoration of Bastille Day and July 4th should be scrapped then.

lostexpectation

if ireland were bigger our army wouldn't be so glossed in positivenss it was simply to small to conquer elsewhere, happy conincedence not design. Our army now occupies the role of the people the 1916 people were fighting, that's not black and white, that's relative.

the rising might have been daring but it was military failure whats there to highlight in the army for that, the only good thing is the proclamation, as aspirational as it was.

ateam

In celebrating 1916, we are celebrating being a republic as opposed to a monarchy. So all Irish people that think Ireland should not have a monarchy are republicans.

The people who were involved in last weeks riots don't understand republicanism and they should not be allowed to deride the commemoration events.

flogen

Cork wrote:

They had and digraced themselves before the eyes of the world.

But on the 1916 thing. We don't need it.

March 17th is our National Holiday. It is known worldwide.

Ireland has grown up since 1966 etc.

We are now a self confident nation and we don't need to bang the green drum or wrap the national flag around ourselves.

Why can't we have a Good Friday Agreement Day?
Celtic Tiger Day?
EU day?

We should be forward looking and thinking.

You're allowing SF style nationalism to fog your brain in relation to Irish history, you don't have to be a hardline extremist just to be proud of your country and its past, although SF have done their best to make it so.

Ireland should celebrate its independence, maybe not a bank holiday, but something.. St. Patricks Day is not an inclusive holiday, and while it is no longer religious to most people it still isn't a celebration of our nation, it's a celebration of our religious history (supposed to be...)
by 2016 we'll have a national holiday for Irish independence, I'm sure of it. Celtic Tiger Day? EU Day? GFA Day? How about we celebrate all of those things when we can be certain that they're going to last and prosper

Cork

[I suppose you think the commemoration of Bastille Day and July 4th should be scrapped then/QUOTE]

Let the French decide on that on.

In celebrating 1916, we are celebrating being a republic as opposed to a monarchy.

In Ireland, we had a President before we became a republic.

This 1916 thing makes no sense. St Patricks Day is our National Holiday.

There is no need for a 1916 gig. Those involved like Lamass (excluding the 50th 1966 gig) and DeValera did not see the need for this type of thing.

flogen

lostexpectation wrote:

the rising might have been daring but it was military failure whats there to highlight in the army for that, the only good thing is the proclamation, as aspirational as it was.

I agree the rising was a failure, and if one was available there should be a better day to focus on, but I think 1916 is seen as the first skirmish in the war of independence; at what point did we really gain independence? When the treaty was signed, when DeV brought in the second constitution? When FG proclaimed a Republic? When we withdrew from the commonwealth?
then some would say that we (the we of the Proclamation) still don't have independence.
I think it was because the proclamation stated our right to independence and that was the basis for our future freedom.

lostexpectation

so er then we're celebrating are independence then... /

do people see Britains rule over Ireland as particularly monarchist? maybe before 1916?

holy **** I really do need to read more endless history apparently george the sixth was our monarch up to 1937!!! what we're we doing between 1916/22 to 37

lostexpectation

flogen wrote:

I agree the rising was a failure, and if one was available there should be a better day to I think it was because the proclamation stated our right to independence and that was the basis for our future freedom.

ok:) were these violent looneys the first or last to do this? (proclaim independence)

flogen

Cork wrote:

In Ireland, we had a President before we became a republic.

This 1916 thing makes no sense. St Patricks Day is our National Holiday.

There is no need for a 1916 gig. Those involved like Lamass (excluding the 50th 1966 gig) and DeValera did not see the need for this type of thing.

St Patricks Day is not a celebration of our nation though; it's a national holiday, but so is Christmas and that has nothing to do with Ireland.

I see nothing wrong with celebrating your independence, it's not anti-British, it's not pro-IRA.. if you let Sinn Fein become the official party of the Irish Independence celebration then it does.

DeV didn't see the need for it because for most of his career he was working out Irish Independence, and celebrating something from 10 years before was a bit odd.
Only for the troubles an annual parade would be a normal thing, I don't see why people are so unwilling to support it.
Take the flag out of SF's hands, take it from the IRA, celebrate your country and its history. It's not about being stuck in the past, it's about respecting it

flogen

lostexpectation wrote:

ok:) were these violent looneys the first or last to do this? (proclaim independence)

Neither, but it was the first serious manover in the War of Independence, a bad one, yes, but the first.

Cork

flogen wrote:

Take the flag out of SF's hands, take it from the IRA, celebrate your country and its history. It's not about being stuck in the past, it's about respecting it

The Provos always had zero mandate. Shooting dead gardai, activity around Dublin port or blowing up rail links showed their true colours. The Joe Rafferty murder is still unresolved.

The flag deserves better than being in their grubby hands.

I respect the rising and progress this nation has made. I surpse we should celebrate this country. As a nation, we have come a long way.

lostexpectation

flogen wrote:

Take the flag out of SF's hands, take it from the IRA, celebrate your country and its history. It's not about being stuck in the past, it's about respecting it

i was going to say that surely seeing as the vast majority of Irish despise SF/IRA this is a non-problem (but it seems it can get messy occasionaly )

but here we have everyone quoting that patroism is that last resource of the scoundral.

flogen

I think celebrating Irish Independence is valid, but as it stands SFIRA are the only ones celebrating it, in their own blinkered way, what that means is people begin to make the association that the War of Independence has something to do with the SFIRA of 2006, something they're happy to have people think but that couldn't be further from the truth.

Patriotism can be a very dangerous thing, that's no lie. It just depends how you view your country, you can be proud of your country and its past but some people use that to condone extreme actions as they claim it is the only way to protect progress. Most people, thankfully, know that isn't true.

Sand

I see nothing wrong with celebrating your independence, it's not anti-British, it's not pro-IRA.. if you let Sinn Fein become the official party of the Irish Independence celebration then it does.

Unfortunately thats not true. 1916 is entirely about violent, anti-democratic republicanism. SFIRA and their idealogical fellow travellers are entirely about violent, anti-democratic republicanism. The two fit like hand and glove. Legitimate liberal democratic parties are embarrassed by 1916 and are trying to keep the glow whilst turning it into some Disney version of history where no one died, no one was hurt, and no laws or democratic principles were broken and the rebels were all quadraplegic, ecumenical, lesbian members of the travelling community.

SFIRA and their ilk arent embarrassed about the baggage 1916 brings with it. Theyre happy to endorse 1916 without reservation, whereas Bertie will be a politician attempting to venerate men who directly attacked the idea of a political settlement to "the Irish Question". Whose going to look better when it comes down to the celebrations? The confident SFIRA saying yeah, we think 1916 was great, or Bertie mumbling inanities about the spirit of 1916, whilst condeming violence? You cant praise violence by the men of 1916 without praising the violence carried out by all violent republican groups against oppressive Brits throughout history. That is exactly why the celebrations were stopped throughout the Troubles.

I remember reading an article on the 1966 celebrations and the man who put together a heroic Michael Collins style TV series called "insurrection" today is troubled that the simplistic, nationalistic tone of the celebrations contributed to the violence in Northern Ireland only a few years later. Glorification of violence will have an effect on the Republic, and indeed in Northern Ireland. Weve already seen unprecedented rioting by republicans only last week attacking marchers.

SFIRA will always be the party of Irish independance so long as we continue to define Irish independance in violent terms. If you want to celebrate Irish Independance then mark the founding of the Republic in 1949, or if you want to celebrate Irish liberators mark Daniel O Connells achievment in 1829 of Catholic Emancipation. Unfortunately, neither of these events involved hundreds dead, thousands wounded and cities burning so are never as fun to celebrate as violent revolutions. Pearse knew that himself, arguing that independance was best achieved through violence rather than politics. And by celebrating 1916, were agreeing with him.

flogen

Sand wrote:

Unfortunately thats not true. 1916 is entirely about violent, anti-democratic republicanism. SFIRA and their idealogical fellow travellers are entirely about violent, anti-democratic republicanism. The two fit like hand and glove. Legitimate liberal democratic parties are embarrassed by 1916 and are trying to keep the glow whilst turning it into some Disney version of history where no one died, no one was hurt, and no laws or democratic principles were broken and the rebels were all quadraplegic, ecumenical, lesbian members of the travelling community.

SFIRA and their ilk arent embarrassed about the baggage 1916 brings with it. Theyre happy to endorse 1916 without reservation, whereas Bertie will be a politician attempting to venerate men who directly attacked the idea of a political settlement to "the Irish Question". Whose going to look better when it comes down to the celebrations? The confident SFIRA saying yeah, we think 1916 was great, or Bertie mumbling inanities about the spirit of 1916, whilst condeming violence? You cant praise violence by the men of 1916 without praising the violence carried out by all violent republican groups against oppressive Brits throughout history. That is exactly why the celebrations were stopped throughout the Troubles.

I remember reading an article on the 1966 celebrations and the man who put together a heroic Michael Collins style TV series called "insurrection" today is troubled that the simplistic, nationalistic tone of the celebrations contributed to the violence in Northern Ireland only a few years later. Glorification of violence will have an effect on the Republic, and indeed in Northern Ireland. Weve already seen unprecedented rioting by republicans only last week attacking marchers.

SFIRA will always be the party of Irish independance so long as we continue to define Irish independance in violent terms. If you want to celebrate Irish Independance then mark the founding of the Republic in 1948, or if you want to celebrate Irish liberators mark Daniel O Connells achievment in 1829 of Catholic Emancipation. Unfortunately, neither of these events involved hundreds dead, thousands wounded and cities burning so are never as fun to celebrate as violent revolutions. Pearse knew that himself, arguing that independance was best achieved through violence rather than politics. And by celebrating 1916, were agreeing with him.

I think you can respect the violence of 1916 and not the violence of the modern IRA, because the truth is that the War of Independence was fought by freedom fighters and the "war" the IRA fight today is fought by terrorists.
Anyone paying attention (without dillusion) knows that the IRA are not the natural successors of the ones fighting in 1916, the Oglaigh na hEireann are.

When I said it was not anti-British, I meant a celebration is not something that will offend Britain today; it will only offend those who oppose Irish freedom. It's not pro-IRA because it is celebrating our independence, something the IRA still claim to be fighting for.

Violence is never something to be happy about, but the principle is what people celebrate, not the death; I'd be happy to see an Irish Independence Day that focuses on another aspect of Irish freedom, such as the official diplomatic declaration of the Irish Republic, there's no point in ignoring the deaths though, and I don't think anyone should. Commemorate the lives of people who fought and died for freedom, realise that we have that freedom and respect the past of this country, which is far from peaceful.

It's not easy, but people can celebrate the likes of 1916 without condoning violence, it's just about understanding that violence may have been needed then but is now a thing of our past.

Skalragg

Cork wrote:

They had and digraced themselves before the eyes of the world.

But on the 1916 thing. We don't need it.

March 17th is our National Holiday. It is known worldwide.

Ireland has grown up since 1966 etc.

We are now a self confident nation and we don't need to bang the green drum or wrap the national flag around ourselves.

Why can't we have a Good Friday Agreement Day?
Celtic Tiger Day?
EU day?

We should be forward looking and thinking.

are you for real....

The reason some people which to comemorate the easter rising is because it is the main event which turned the public opinion in Ireland towards independence. The execution of the leaders of the rebellion angered the public...etc etc

we should be proud of our history and not ashamed.

p.s.your 3 days are a waste of webspace,becuase
>There aint much to celebrate about Good Friday agreement since the situation in the north is at a standstill
>Celtic Tiger Day....hahaha ur some muppet, i didnt happen on anyday,.....oh look the tiger is after waking up........;)
>EU Day....how exciting, well it wasnt the EU back then, and we werent the origanil members,...so like u want to celebrate our joining or the founding of it

if you want weird and wacky days have a look at this day
http://steakandblowjobday.g-spotting.net/

you guessed it,march 20th is steqak and blowjob day lol lol

Skalragg

Cork wrote:

The Provos always had zero mandate. Shooting dead gardai, activity around Dublin port or blowing up rail links showed their true colours. The Joe Rafferty murder is still unresolved.

The flag deserves better than being in their grubby hands.

I respect the rising and progress this nation has made. I surpse we should celebrate this country. As a nation, we have come a long way.

shooting dead gardai.....well i presume u mean shooting gardai dead,cause i dont see the logic of going around shooting dead bodies, haha. anyway, we're not celebreating the provos or anything. get facts rite, its the beginning of irish independence

Cork

Skalragg wrote:

its the beginning of irish independence

No. Irish Independence did not start with 1916.

we should be proud of our history and not ashamed.

No - We should learn from history. We should see how far we have come.

The 1916 thing should be a celebration of achievement.

lostexpectation

flogen wrote:

I think you can respect the violence of 1916 and not the violence of the modern IRA, because the truth is that the War of Independence was fought by freedom fighters and the "war" the IRA fight today is fought by terrorists.
Anyone paying attention (without dillusion) knows that the IRA are not the natural successors of the ones fighting in 1916, the Oglaigh na hEireann are.

yes ff/fg are their political siblings, there the people that carried out this violent hopeless fringe rising, and can we stop pretending that violence is not the currency of the present Irish Army.

flogen

lostexpectation wrote:

yes ff/fg are their political siblings, there the people that carried out this violent hopeless fringe rising, and can we stop pretending that violence is not the currency of the present Irish Army.

they're an army, while they mainly act as a peacekeeping force no-one is going to deny that they exist for any reason other than to fight violence with violence; they're not there for diplomacy, they're there if diplomacy fails.

Skalragg

Cork wrote:

No. Irish Independence did not start with 1916.



No - We should learn from history. We should see how far we have come.

The 1916 thing should be a celebration of achievement.

i ment irish independence movement, like i said in the post above it!!!!!!!!

we should learn from history?and see how far we have come???what are u on about child,
what are we going to learn, that taking seige of a large building with an inexperienced and poorly trained group of men with weapons is a bad idea when ur out numbered and have a highly trained army agianst ya,.......
1916 should be celebrated for what it is, the turning point in irish history,where after it public opinion was turned towards independence.it was an event which set independence in motion and should not be forgotten, we are a republic and should be proud of it!

Skalragg

lostexpectation wrote:

yes ff/fg are their political siblings, there the people that carried out this violent hopeless fringe rising, and can we stop pretending that violence is not the currency of the present Irish Army.

know your facts mate before you talk crap

p.s. its far from a hopeless rising u unpatriotic individual u ! :P without such a large event, people of the time would still be in large content of the idea of home rule instead of independence, would u reallly have prefered it didnt happen. we could still be under britains rule today if it wasnt for them

Cork

Skalragg wrote:

we are a republic and should be proud of it!

Yes - We should be proud. Look at our economy, our unemployment rate etc.

We have much to be proud of.

But it has to be remembered the 1916 rising did not have popular support and today in a democratic society - actions similar to 1916 would not hold up.

A Dub in Glasgo

There are many many things that happened in history that if happened today would not hold up! We could go around constantly embarrassed and ashamed of these things.

The millions of lemmings who where massarced in WW1. The wholesale slaughter of millions of civilans in WW2. Any uprising/rebellion/insurrection that gave hundreds of countries around the globe their independence.

Diorraing

Cork wrote:

But on the 1916 thing. We don't need it.

March 17th is our National Holiday. It is known worldwide.

Ireland has grown up since 1966 etc.

What are you talking about? This has got absolutely nothing to do about being 'grown up'. The military parade will give us the chance to commemorate those who bravely gave their lives for Irish freedom. Perhaps you find it difficult to see the causal link between 1916 and our independance so I'll make it easy for you: After 1916 people started to sympathise more with the national struggle, the prisoners (amongst whom were Collins and deV) went to places like Frongoch where they organised the WofI. They came back as heros and with the full support of the population they fought and won independance. You see, 1916 sparked it all off.

We are now a self confident nation and we don't need to bang the green drum or wrap the national flag around ourselves.

You are arguing against points that no-one has made. No-one said that banging drums made us feel more confident in ourselves. The parade will give us the chance to say: We are proud of the sacrifice of the patriots of 1916, we appreciate that we would be subjects of a foreign crown if it wasn't for them. We recognise the proclamation as a ground-breaking document. We also recognise that 1916 inspired other countries such as India to pursue their own independance.
Its far too simplistic to say that its about bashing the green drum and making us feel good about ourselves

We should be forward looking and thinking

And....celebrating 1916 makes us backwards?

Diorraing

Cork wrote:

But it has to be remembered the 1916 rising did not have popular support and today in a democratic society - actions similar to 1916 would not hold up.

Moral Relativism. You cannot impose todays standards on another time in different circumstances. True, actions like 1916 wouldn't hold up in todays society. However, in case you didn't notice we are not being oppressed anymore. Few would frown upon the actions of the ANC in South Africa nad few would deny their right to resist oppression. Nelson Mandela is a world icon for god's sake!!
Also, 1916 was fought at a time where blood sacrifice was viewed as a heroic action (WW1 etc.)
So when we celebrate 1916 we are not saying we would like to see another one in the Ireland of today. We say: 1916 was a glorious event in its time and by its times standards