On my last nerve... training dog to walk on leash.

Dave!

Hey folks,

I know there's probably a few threads on this already, but I don't want to bump a really old thread, so I'll post this.

We got a boxer bitch around August last, and she's ~6 months old now I'd say. I've been the one training her since we got her, and she's actually quite good at learning gimmicky tricks, which I suppose teaches her discipline and shows her who the leader is and so on and so forth. So far she's able to sit, lie down, roll over, give paw, jump, speak, and hug.

However, I'm having alot of trouble making her walk on the lead properly. When I take her out, I generally walk her around the neighbourhood, which is a residential estate, and so has lots of front gardens, which she likes to walk into. Most of the time when she's being walked (it's often at night-time, dunno if this is relevent), she has her nose to the ground like she's tracking something! And she starts walking across in front of me and into gardens, tripping me up. Or she'll see something on the ground just ahead and try to drag me to it. And if a person walks by, she tries to jump onto them of course, and if a dog is nearby, god help us! she goes mad, spinning around in circles, jumping in the air, barking, everything!!!

It's incredibly frustrating, because I would consider walking the dog something that could be relaxing! But not like this...

Now, I've obviously been reading up on this, and asking opinions from plenty of people, and watching programmes like 'It's Me Or The Dog', and there's a few different ideas...

(a) when she pulls on the lead, stop, say heel, wait for her to calm down and look at you, treat or praise, and then continue on.
This has been the main one I've been trying, because it seems to make sense, and it's not uncomfortable for her. But it's just not been working It seems to work a bit better when I have treats, and I say "heel", but I haven't really been able to do that too often cos the cold means I'm wearing gloves all the time! I'll have to explore this one a bit further maybe.

(b) when she pulls on the lead, turn around and walk the other way.
We tried this at the start after seeing it on that programme, but it's not really practical unfortunately.

(c) when she pulls on the lead, yank it hard.
Now, in the last few years there's been a more softly softly approach introduced for training dogs, which probably works (see a!), but almost everybody I've talked to about the problem says that this is the method they used (most of them have older dogs at this stage), and they swear by it. I've reluctantly tried it because we use a harness and not a choke collar for her, and she's got a big chest! so I was hoping she'd get the message and not be hurt at the same time. It doesn't seem to work though, she basically just ignores it which I think is to do with her having a harness and not the collar (so she doesn't get as much discomfort).


Would the harness have anything to do with the problem? Most people advise against choke collars for obvious reasons, but it seems like the harness is confusing her, because whatever way she walks, it kinda leads her another way, so she's all over the place! If this is some of the problem, what's the alternative?


Sorry for the length of the post, but hopefully someone will be able to gimme a hand!!! I want to exhaust any chance of us being able to teach her before getting a trainer; I've been able to teach her other things, so I'd say I just need to find an appropriate method.

Thanks for any help or advise!

madness

had many of dogs that i had a few problems with it ended up i was nervous to walk them, im not a lover of the choke chains but i gave up and got a few of them, it took a while for the dogs to get used to them but it done good at the end, i will always use them now.

craggel

Hi Dave
We have a Boxer bitch aswell allbeit 8-9 months older than yours. Anyway we had and still have these problems. Sniffing the ground, walking haphazardly in front of you, pulling to get to gateposts and greeting every dog thst passes. It has got better over the last couple of months but when the kids are with us it is a nightmare walking her 'cos she just pulls and pulls as she wants to run around after the kids. We managed to get her away from running at other dogs by giving her a little treat as other dogs passed. By stopping everytime she pulls on the lead we have managed to limit the amount of times she does that but its still a work in progress. I can't count the number of times I've promised to bring her to proper training classes but never seem to have the time.
In short I suppose the best thing to do is bring her to classes as this would get her used to other dogs aswell.
Having said all that don't let it get you down too much as you have with you one of the best family pets you could ask for.

peasant

Please do not use choke chains. They hurt the dog and in the end result they are just as innefective as anything else. A chain or even just a collar, when yanked hard, can injure a dogs windpipe and neck vertebraes ...especially in a young dog. And if it keeps on pulling, it just devolps neck muscles like a buffalo, rendering the whole thing pointless. A good harness lets you hold the dog much more effectively and safely.

A word of consolation: Even the best trained dogs pull and act the maggot sometimes. Why? Because "walk" first and foremost means excitement, things to do, things to see, things to sniff. So trotting along mannerly is not exactly on the dogs agenda, it wants to go places.

Look at your walkies round ...is there a way you can start off in a safe area, where she can let off some steam first ...maybe even run off the lead?

Asking her to be "good" right from the start is asking a bit much ...she's just to excited. Do your training nearer the end of the walk, when she is less excited or even tired and the message will eventually get through to her. Heap her with praise, when she does it right and gradually pull your lessons forward into the earlier stages of your walk. It will take time, lots of it ...but it will work eventually.

The "stop-start" and "walk the other way" techniques are quite effective really ...just not right in the first few minutes, while the dogs mind is preoccupied with sheer excitement.

Once you are sure that she really understands what is meant by "heel" you can then try and use it right from the start. Still indoors, let her "sit" to put on the lead, let her "wait" before going out the door and have her walk "heel" from the very first step. Any failure and the lead doesn't go on, the door doesn't open or the walk doesn't happen. Ideally you do these training rounds when your not under pressure timewise yourself ...

Yes, there are quicker ways to get the dog to walk to heel, but they all involve brutality of some sort. Ideally what you want ist the dogs co-operation though ...not just submission because she fears pain.

Another tip: Once you notice her excitement level rising (because there is somebody coming or there is an interesting scent) try and get her attention (possibly before she is completely focussed on whatever it is) and get her to "sit". Initially you can reward her for sitting with a treat. Done right and trained regularly, she will end up "sitting" next to you whenever somebody comes along. You can then praise her instead of having to "yank her chain".

She is still young and it will take some time, training and patience ...also some "refreshers" every now and then ...but it will work ...promise !!

karlin

Dog Training Ireland have a special class coming up to deal with just this issue. I've been on their courses and can recommend them! More info:

www.dogtrainingireland.ie

Nala

A headcollar might be a good bet. With a collar or harness she is able to put all her weight into pulling you (hence why horses wear a harness to pull a cart) but that will be much more difficult for her with a headcollar as it is around her head and she won't be able to lean into it.

Rogueish

Try a halti or an easy leader, they are head collar type things. I have heard people swear by them.

I've tried a Halti on my boxer but she's between sizes sot she's able to scrabble it off. I'm exactly where you are now with my boxer bitch - she's 5mths old and it a toss up sometimes on who is taking whom for a walk and there are times when I could just cry.

A dog trainer has advised the use of a choke chain but I think that they are cruel out and can't bear the thought of putting it on my baby, so it's the stop start and to 'heel' commands that we are perservering with - sometimes I think I see a glimmer of hope and other times I think that I'm deluding myself (she temporarily stays at my heel - for all of five seconds - but then tears off as far as the lead and my poor arm will let her).

I wish you luck and offer my sympathies.

peasant

A head collar should be used only as a training aid and only in combination with another means of holding the dog (collar, harness).

Due to its design, a headcollar pulls the dogs head towards you, once the dog starts pulling away from you.
This is good for getting the dogs attention, because it has to look at you and you can then try to influence it with your commands.

It is very bad as a means of controlling and holding your dog. As the head collar can really yank the dogs head and neck around if it runs into it, doing it serious injury.

The only force transmitted through a head collar should be a light, one fingered pull, to get its attention ...never the full weight of the dog at full speed.

This means you would need two leads to train your dog ...one for the head collar and one for the normal collar/harness. Personally I find this way to complicated and confusing (for the handler) to achive the desired results.

Maggs

We rehomed a male boxer a few months ago who was not lead trained. He is now a year and half old and I have been using a canny collar on him which is working great. I use a lead that is long enough so that I can hold the handle in one hand and hold the other end of the lead close to the dog with the other hand and therefore I have great control over his movements. I had been just walking him on our local green (no distractions) but this week I have brought him out on the road with great success. Please please do not use a choke chain!!!

Just to add, you need to give the dog a bit of time to get used to the canny collar as at first he did not like the strap going across his nose but now he is fine with it.

Good luck

Nala

i was in Turkey once and saw someone walking his dog with a collar with spikes that dug into the dog's neck if he pulled...horrible.

Rogueish

Just a quick update, after my last post I took Jackie (my boxer baby) for a walk and yes for over half of it she stayed by my side on a loose lead!!! Saying that the next day it was back to square one and I thought that I had dreamed it.

But today again she walked some of her walk on a loose lead so there is progress in motion. This has come after 2 months of me speaking like a broken record 'Back to Heel' every three seconds each time we were out for a walk (most of the neighbours think that I'm a bit in need of some psychiatric help!!)

Karlin thanx a mil for that tip about Dog Training Ireland. I'm hoping to start their course in April.

karlin

Hey that's great news! I might do that course myself but agility is tempting too. Dog Training Ireland have a private arena (not the IKC one) out near the back of the airport and brand new agility equipment so it is tempting!

FranknFurter

Might be a good idea to make sure there is always a "goal" to the walk.

For example, a dog who is just walking a route constantly on a short lead will "make the most" of that walk every few seconds.

However, if the dog learns that when you get to a certain place (park or such) its going to have the chance to RUN AROUND, (on a long lead or such), it will be more focused on getting there as opposed to concentrating on every second of the route.

If its bad, you turn around and come straight back home IMMEDIATELY during the bad behaviour (so it will know what = what). When its GOOD it gets to "go to the park!"

It will take time and patience, but does work.
Worked very well for me with my mothers wicklow collie, hes a huge dog and is now very well behaved on walks, he *was* terrible, every single little thing was stopped at and explored. Since he knows hes going for a run at the end, that is pretty much *all* hes focused on.

(IMHO, the harness beats the choke chain or regular lead hands down).

b

Dave!

Just an update... I've been mainly using the method of saying heel about 100 times in a walk, and giving her treats every time she obeys, which is having moderate success... But I really don't see it working quick enough, or well enough.

So, I'm going to give in and give the choke chain a go. My mother and sister were walking the dog yesterday, and bumped into a man walking his boxer, who he breeds for shows, and he advocates using the choke chain too, and says that the harness is useless for her. While they were chatting, and my dog was jumping in the air like a gazelle going crazy, the man's dog sat still and didn't move.

So I'm reluctantly going to try it out, and see what success I get out of it. I'll be using it for training, and when she gets better I'll change back again.

Thanks for the help, I'll let you know how it goes.

peasant

Just because some breeder chokes his dogs into submission, doesn't mean that this is the right way to go ...

Besides the pain and loss of trust your dog is going to experience with the choke chain, there is also the very high risk of injury / lasting damage to its neck and throat to be taken into consideration.

Maybe your not conveying the message properly to your dog?
You need to be consistent and consequent. Especially when rewarding good behaviour with food, it is easy to make the mistake and give the reward at the wrong time. (having to fish the treat out of your pocket first usually doesn't help) You might be rewarding too late sometimes, she might be getting her food while she is already pulling again?

If she has made the wrong connection, she might actually have "learned" to pull first, then heel to collect her reward only to pull again to start the game all over.

Cut down on the food and rather reward with praise ..that can be given on the dot much more easily.

If this sounds too difficult, try and get some advice from a dog trainer ...preferably not one from "the old school"

And patience, patience, patience ...

Keep the lessons short. Only use the "command" heel when there is actually a chance of her obeying ...just shouting "heel" over and over without result renders the command useless.

Start training on a certain section of your walk only, for a short time (three or four times) only. Use a quiet spot and a time when the first excitement has worn off so that you can get her full attention. Once you've had repeated success in that one spot (meaning several days in a row), extend your training to different places and different times during your walk. But keep the lessons short and the build up gradual.

When training, be serious, use only your chosen commands, don't talk to her otherwise. Your signals must be clear, precise and always the same. Things like "now, you bad dog,you're pulling again, don't do that" aren't produvtive at all and only confuse your dog ...a simple "NO" will work much better

Clearly announce training as such (maybe get her to sit and focus on you before you start) and also clearly give her some time off (preferably off the lead) as a reward and and play session.

This can then later be extended, so that most of the walk becomes "work" ...where she walks to heel, leading to "play" where she can relax and run about.

Most dogs are quite willing "workers" and quite eager to please ...once they understand what is wanted off them ...conveing the message is the difficult bit.

babybundy

i agrere mostly with your technic but disagree with your view on choke chains if they are put on correctly they work fine short snappy tug on the lead and the word heal should work soon but when slacken the lead the chain should release if not its on the wrong way round

peasant

fine short snappy tug on the lead and the word heal should work

That "fine short snappy tug" nonetheless strangles the dog, sqeezing its windpipe.

I still fail to see how this would be a) a good idea, b)without health / injury risk or c) a training method.
Depriving someone of air to breathe in my eyes is neither "training" nor "educational" but torture.

mountainyman

peasant wrote:

Depriving someone of air to breathe in my eyes is neither "training" nor "educational" but torture.

Dogs aren't 'someone' in fairness. I would reccommend stopping when the dog tugs the lead. The dog will stop and wait.

The choking tug won't be understood so the dog gets hurt but doesn't really understand why. I am not against something like that if it works but not if it doesn't.

MM

karlin

There are those who can use a choke chain correctly, but in my experience, they are few and far between. Chokes remain a major point of controversy and part of an old school view of how to train a dog, that has been left behind by almost all current, certified dog training programs (though you can still find strong adherents to this way of training). I grew up in the era of all dogs wearing chokes; thankfully, the mindset has changed towards training dogs through positive motivation rather than training dogs by throttling them, jerking them around, or slapping them.

A choke chain on its own is still not a solution (a halti or canny collar or gentle leader would be a much better choice if you are seeking a training aid). What dogs tend to do when a choke is placed on them is pull just as hard and risk damage to their trachea -- which can be quite serious if it collapses. What these other collars do is simply remove the ability for the dog to pull at anything -- there's nothing there for them to resist. If they start to pull they simply end up looking back and as they want to go forward, they get no reward for their former pulling behaviour. Hence they stop pulling. These collars don;t twist their heads in an uncomfotable way, they are somewhat like a halter on a horse. A horse pushing its head out against a halter or bridle doesn't do much (and can't pull against it) but reach the end of the length of the reins which then causes its head to turn slightly to the left or right. A dog weants to go straight ahead so it simply slows down to your pace so its head stops turning.

Overall, it's much better to get some professional guidance on how to motivationally train a dog not to pull. I know from experience that this is not hard to do; it just takes understanding some very simple techniques, and some practice in places where your dog is not distracted (part of the problem here is that your young boxer needs the training indoors or in a garden where she can focus on you, until she gets the hang of what you want from her, not on general walks where the whole world is of intense interest to a puppy -- she is still, after all, only a puppy at six months!).

Thus I do strongly recommend the special course on pulling from Dog Training Ireland as this is very intensive and focused on this one issue in order to bring fast success, it's a small class with half the number of students as would normally be in a class, and gives people techniques they can continue to hone. I have had a look through the basic approaches for the class and it looks excellent.

I'll be doing the agility class with them in about a week and am looking forward to that! I know both these trainers from involvement with rescue groups (one does dachshund rescue, one does Tibetan terriers) and also from having done their classes before and they are really fun courses.

Dave!

Hey folks, just a bit of an update...

I got the choker, it's not actually a chain but rather made from nylon or somethin similar. I tried it a good few times, but it's not making a difference to her at all, she still pulls on it, and I'm afraid that she'll end up aggressive as a result of it.

So I got her a Halti after our vet recommended it to me. Haven't really had a chance to try it out other than walking her back from the pet-shop where we bought it! She was obviously not impressed by this new monstrosity around her face, so she was trying to take it off (and succeeded for the most part!), but when she wasn't trying to take it off, she was walking quite well at my heel!

It's a bit too early to tell if it's going to work well or not, but I'll let ye know how it goes.

Maggs

So happy to hear you're not using the choke.

With the halti, try putting it on for a few mins around the house or garden and taking it off again. I did this with my boxer and now he's used to it and I can walk him anywhere. Best of luck

Rogueish

Dave,

Just wondering how yourself and Jessie are getting on with the Halti?

AlanD

like the OP, we've a 1 year old Boxer bitch who has always been a struggle to walk. We went to lots of classes, used a choke chain which didn't work in the long term and only seemed to temporarily scold the dog. Moved on to a halti which worked wonders for our walks but the snapping of the neck is slightly worrying as a previous poster has pointed out. Also, because the boxer has a short snout, the constant pulling would sometimes move one of the straps almost across and under her right eye which doesn't look safe or comfortable. So I stopped using it.

Next step though is to go back and use more treats again and maybe find something to replace the halti, I like the sound of that canny collar. Treats work temporarily too, so I need to find that balance to keep her on side.

She can be very good on a walk, but lately she's been like a dog possessed. Boxers seem either completely deaf or they will listen intently. As scatty as they come really. We love her to bits, but she requires a lot of patience.

Maggs

The strap that goes across the nose with the canny collar does not run up into the eyes. You are also controlling the dog from the top of the neck, not under the muzzle, so there is no jerking of the head.

The joyous feeling I got when walking Bruno on a public busy road for the first time was great. I would never have been able to do this without using the canny collar

luckat

I got a gadget called a Pleasure Walker, also sold as a Gentle Walker, in Breffni House pet shop in Dundrum. Works much better than anything I tried before - my dog seems to feel secure and happy in it.

A lot of your dog's behaviour sounds like she's jumpy and scared of street traffic. It might be an idea to walk her (preferably using a Pleasure Walker, and calling her back by patting your thigh and then praising her like mad when she comes to heel) late at night or early in the morning when there's less scary traffic.

padi89

Due to a back injury i found it very difficult to walk my ladrador.He is well behaved but used to get a bit excited at times when he picked up a scent and it resulted on him pulling on the lead which used to jerk my back and give me alot of pain.I have been using the Halti collar with him for the past 2-3 years and its been a God send.He no longer pulls on the lead and it only takes the strenght of my finger to control him.In fact he does not need any controling at all as he walks perfectly to heal now.There is no jerking on the neck at all with this colar as said in a previous post in fact a regular colar is alot worse.A first they will try to remove it but with time they get used to it and its no problem.The key to dog walking is to walk your dog regularly,not missing days,feeling to lazy to walk,as this just causes the dog to get more wound up for their next walk.

Dave!

Ok bit of a further update.

We've been having a bit of success with the Halti! My dad and sister have been walking her mainly recently, cos I'm busy with college etc, and they say she's easier to walk. The 3 of us took her to the beach today cos it was quite warm, and had a body harness, and the Halti, on her, so she looked like a bloody dominatrix! We walked her around using the lead and she was much easier to control, even though she looks like she's about to cry most of the time. She wasn't trying to take it off really, but she went a bit crazy when we were passing a bird on the ground.

We let her off the lead too, cos it was fairly deserted, and she was great!!! It was a pleasure watching her bound around the place, chase her ball, and run around in the water (she even swam once ) I was afraid she would find the closest person and sprint at them then knock them over, but the 2 or 3 times she saw people, she just walked up to them and let them pet her (wagging her tail too), and then came back (or else we'd run away and she'd chase us).

So yeh, relatively happy with the Halti, I'm sure she'll get better with it (she had it on for the whole time she was running around the beach, and didn't try take it off, she could pick up her ball with it on too, so it wasn't a problem), and really happy that I can let her run around without the lead Still, I'd be too afraid to let her off anywhere where she could jump a wall to get at the road even... she's pretty fast

I'll try and post a video of her in the water, probably on Tuesday (when I'm at the laptop).

padi89

Good to know everything is working out and im sure it will get better and better.