Is Michael Mc Dowell a gaelgoir? ...

SeanW

... Or does he just have something to hide?

According to the Sunday Tribune, Michael McDowell, Justice Minister, has chosen to use the Irish Language to introduce controversial legislation on phone-tapping and communications monitoring. Article here.

And some people say the Irish language is useless.

But I disagree, it's really useful when someone in power has something to hide, because of course, everyone knows what "text message monitoring" and "electronic telephone recording" is as Gaeilge.

I'd be looking at this legislation very carefully, that is, if I could speak a word of Gaelic.

Diorraing

Not sure if he is gaeilgoir, pretty sure he is a gaeilgeoir tho.

Freelancer

Yup, he's made huge speechs usually over controversial legislation entirely as gaegile......

Its not like he's deviously sneaking things into the statute books by putting little clauses in in irish but more that he's ensuring the debate about such laws are quickly and painlessly over and done with.

flogen

Are they complaining because they can't understand what is in front of them or because they can't engage in debate?
I would say it's a horrible abuse to use this tactic, but who is more at fault here, McDowell for speaking Gaeilge in the Dail or those TD's opposed to the bill being unable to engage in the same tongue?

I'm generally opposed to McDowell's tactics, and I am extremely weary of this bill (can't say I totally oppose it because I haven't read it), I am also far from a fluent Irish speaker but if people in the Dail aren't able to debate or read bills in Irish as well as they do in English they have no one to blame but themselves.

They can now do one of the following; demand the Irish government speaks in English and English only or get off their arses and learn their first language.

SeanW

I'm guessing that many of our TDs, like a lot of Irish people, can't speak Irish, either very well or at all. For all the linguistic facists ramming this gibberish down our throats, we largely can't even speak the language.

First Language or not, that's the reality.

And here was me thinking the Irish language was useless, but if you want to sneak in some dodgy legislation without debate, Gaeilge seems to be the answer.

Diorraing

SeanW wrote:

And here was me thinking the Irish language was useless, but if you want to sneak in some dodgy legislation without debate, Gaeilge seems to be the answer.

Complete rubbish. All leaders of the opposition can speak Irish fluently: Enda Kenny, Pat Rabbitte, Trevor Sergent, Caoimhín Ó Caoileáin, Joe Higgins - even Tony Gergory. If McDowell thinks this is a good method of 'sneaking' legislation in he has got another thing coming.

SeanW

It was introduced in the Senate.

The Tribune wrote:

"I know he has the cupla focal, but it is highly unusual for this minister to deliver a speech in Irish. It would immediately raise questions in my mind to look carefully at the detail in this piece of legislation, " Labour's Joe Costello said.

From RTE today:

Labour TD Michael D Higgins criticised the Minister for using Irish in what he said was an abusive way.

He said the translation was poor and he could not understand some of the words used.

Oh dear oh dear.

simu

That Tribune link doesn't work but I'd like to see the article - Micheal D. Higgins was on the RTÉ 9 o'clock news today talking about it and he claimed it was a bad translation from English. A failed attempt to sneak legislation through? - I'm surprised McD. thought it would go un-noticed tbh. Odd.

arbeitsscheuer

Well, Michael D. Higgins is 100% fluent in his mother tongue, so if he was on the 9 O'Clock news criticising McDowell's translation, then there's something bloomin' shifty bout the whole thing.

gilroyb

He seems to like speaking in the Seanad 'as gaeilge' , this was a continuation of that policy. He did not speak in the Dail in Irish. I presume the Minister only speaks in the Seanad on matters of great importance and that is why it looks like his policy is an attempt to hide legislation. I'm not a big fan of his, but I don't think an Irish politician speaking Irish should be a source of disgust.

simu

gilroyb wrote:

I'm not a big fan of his, but I don't think an Irish politician speaking Irish should be a source of disgust.

I think it's good to use Irish there but he should be sure it's accurate!

Maskhadov

i heard Mc Dowell made heavy work of going through the entire bill as Gaegile. Personally I belive that 50% of items in the Dail and Seanad should be in Irish.

SeanW

SeanW wrote:

And some people say the Irish language is useless.

Substitute 'you' for 'some people'...

SeanW wrote:

this gibberish

I don't understand Greek yet those Greeks are always speaking it in their Parliament. I'm going to get paranoid...

SeanW

Oh dear, looks like I just fired up the Irish language enthusiast brigade.

I don't understand Greek yet those Greeks are always speaking it in their Parliament. I'm going to get paranoid...

It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that Greek people SPEAK THE GREEK LANGUAGE? Err ... no ... of course not.

So the translation for the speech was so bad that Michael D Higgins couldn't understand it. It seems clear that McDowell exploited what is basically a loophole to make the speech in a language many don't understand in an attempt to fudge some legislation through.

Electroic surveillance is a dodgy, fundamental issue pitting the need for civil liberties against the need for safety, and any legislation on the matter should be dealt with openly and honestly. But, apparently, McDowell picked this time to show his cultural side?

flogen

SeanW wrote:

Oh dear, looks like I just fired up the Irish language enthusiast brigade.

It wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that Greek people SPEAK THE GREEK LANGUAGE? Err ... no ... of course not.

So the translation for the speech was so bad that Michael D Higgins couldn't understand it. It seems clear that McDowell exploited what is basically a loophole to make the speech in a language many don't understand in an attempt to fudge some legislation through.

Electroic surveillance is a dodgy, fundamental issue pitting the need for civil liberties against the need for safety, and any legislation on the matter should be dealt with openly and honestly. But, apparently, McDowell picked this time to show his cultural side?

If McDowell spoke in Irish and people couldn't understand him that's their problem.
However, if McDowell spoke in Irish but did so so poorly that other Irish speakers had difficulty understanding him then he should be questioned as Gaeilge about the bad translations. If he can't really speak Irish that well someone should have the brains to put him on the spot.

SeanW

SeanW wrote:

Oh dear, looks like I just fired up the Irish language enthusiast brigade.

On the contrary, I don't speak it at all myself. Hence I don't go around knocking people who do, or getting all paranoid about someone who choses to speak in our native tongue. Fair play to them. I wish I had the time to study it.

ballooba

As I said in the Digital Rights forum. This has secured a vote against McDowell from me. I probably would have voted against him anyway, but now I'm putting him in the same category as Sinn Fein as in they won't even appear on my ballot paper.

This inspired me to join Fine Gael yesterday. I intend doing everything I can to try and stop this scumbag (in my opinion) getting back into the Dail.

[edit]P.s. Did this bill get through? also just to point out that I have never been political before to any great extent. On the face of this it looks like cosying up to the US again and their Patriot Act. [/edit]

The_Minister

I have heard of TDs doing this before. I was watching Dail Beo once and some Green made a speech in Irish and nearly the whole house left.

Bogger77

ballooba wrote:

As I said in the Digital Rights forum. This has secured a vote against McDowell from me. I probably would have voted against him anyway, but now I'm putting him in the same category as Sinn Fein as in they won't even appear on my ballot paper.

This inspired me to join Fine Gael yesterday. I intend doing everything I can to try and stop this scumbag (in my opinion) getting back into the Dail.

[edit]P.s. Did this bill get through? also just to point out that I have never been political before to any great extent. On the face of this it looks like cosying up to the US again and their Patriot Act. [/edit]

McDowell may have issues speaking in Irish, but at least he can use English fluently. Try using spaces and spell checker.

Michael D. is complaining about the translations, but in a language such as Irish, with 3 very different dialects, with each having differing spellings/words/grammar, it will be hard to get a translation that satisfies all readers.
I deal with translators for many languages, and we will often have complaints from other native language speakers about words and phrases used.

SeanW

ballooba wrote:

As I said in the Digital Rights forum. This has secured a vote against McDowell from me. I probably would have voted against him anyway, but now I'm putting him in the same category as Sinn Fein as in they won't even appear on my ballot paper.

This inspired me to join Fine Gael yesterday. I intend doing everything I can to try and stop this scumbag (in my opinion) getting back into the Dail.

[edit]P.s. Did this bill get through? also just to point out that I have never been political before to any great extent. On the face of this it looks like cosying up to the US again and their Patriot Act. [/edit]

Forget it Ballooba, FG supports this legislation.

The article wrote:

JUSTICE minister Michael McDowell took the unusual step of speaking in Irish in the Seanad to introduce controversial measures which will allow EU states to tap phones and monitor text and email messages in Ireland, without first seeking permission from the Irish authorities.

The phone tapping proposals are part of new measures to allow EU countries fight international criminal gangs and will make it easier for national governments to monitor bank accounts and confiscate the assets of criminals living outside their jurisdictions.

McDowell signalled that the legislation would be important in fighting the situation where "an Irish person is entitled to go to the 'costa del crime' and buy a villa there."

Fine Gael supports McDowell, but the Labour Party has said there are not enough safeguards about personal privacy and individual rights in the legislation. The party will table amendments, when the bill is debated in detail next week, seeking a monitoring mechanism to ensure any information gathered is not misused.

The fact that the minister delivered his entire secondstage speech in Irish was commented upon by several of his political opponents, as McDowell has only spoken in Irish a handful of times in his Oireachtas career.

"I know he has the cupla focal, but it is highly unusual for this minister to deliver a speech in Irish. It would immediately raise questions in my mind to look carefully at the detail in this piece of legislation, " Labour's Joe Costello said.

However, a spokesperson for McDowell said the minister "liked to make speeches in the Seanad in Irish" and had done so previously.

The proposals to facilitate the interception of telecommunication messages between EU member states for criminal investigation purposes are contained in Part 3 of the Criminal Justice (Mutual Assistance) Bill.

The legislation would make it possible for police forces in other EU states to monitor telecom messages of a person in Ireland while "retrospective permission" was being sought. The legislation says that any information gathered could only be used if permission was ultimately granted. It is not clear how this situation would operate.

Independent Senator Joe O'Toole, who spoke in the Seanad last week, said that the monitoring proposals "should not lead to a deterioration in the rights of citizens". He warned that "there has to be a full debate to ensure that people's rights are safeguarded. Otherwise, this proposal will become a pension fund for lawyers who challenge every line in the legislation."

McDowell's legislation would also make it a legal obligation on all telecommunication companies to facilitate phone tapping and email monitoring of people, regardless of where they are located in the EU.

Irish authorities could refuse requests for assistance where it was believed that state security interests would be threatened, or where it was thought assistance might result in a person being subjected to torture.

ballooba

ballooba wrote:

This has secured a vote against McDowell from me. I probably would have voted against him anyway

No, you don't say...I'd never have guessed from the rest of your post

ballooba wrote:

This inspired me to join Fine Gael yesterday.

So you joined a party that supports McDowell's position? How bizarre...

ballooba wrote:

I intend doing everything I can to try and stop this scumbag (in my opinion) getting back into the Dail.

Please let us know how your campaign goes. I would suggest chaining yourself to the door of his constituency office. Others may have other ideas to contribute, but keep us posted. Just assure us that 'everything' stops short of hanging around book depositaries with a high powered rifle bought through a catalogue...

ballooba

Bogger77 wrote:

McDowell may have issues speaking in Irish, but at least he can use English fluently. Try using spaces and spell checker.

I did. Care to clarify?

[edit] Also with regard to the above, I'm disappointed to hear that Fine Gael are supporting this legislation.

They'll still get my preference in the hope that McDowell won't get back in. I have a problem with a lot of the things McDowell does and feel that he abuses his power.

With regard to what I can do to try stop him getting back into the Dail. I can first of all exercise my vote in favour of every other candidate than FF & PD (& SF). Encourage members of my family to vote likewise. Also I can help by helping out with FG campaigns.

One of my friends is a legal eagle with FG. I must ask him what the thinking behind this decision was.

I disagree with other elements of FG policy including those with regard to Credit Card surcharges but you can't have everything.[/edit]

shuushh

On the contrary, I don't speak it at all myself. Hence I don't go around knocking people who do, or getting all paranoid about someone who choses to speak in our native tongue. Fair play to them. I wish I had the time to study it.

yet you manage to both knock someone and get paranoid about people who oppose Mc Dowell. Good work.

biko

I don't mind whether he uses Irish or English, it's the fact hat he is trying to allow foreign/EU police to tap/monitor our telephones and mail that gets to me.
Is he to trying to turn Ireland into a "security state", following the British and american examples?

shuushh

shuushh wrote:

yet you manage to both knock someone and get paranoid about people who oppose Mc Dowell.

Yeah, I got all paranoid alright. I suspect the original poster is trying to foist legislation on this country on the sly just like McDowell, so your analogy/comparison is perfect.

The reference to the rifles and book depositaries, as many will notice, was Lee Harvey Oswald - the assasination of John F Kennedy? Ex President of the US? Hate to burst the bubble but it wasn't paranoia, it was tongue in cheek, I wasn't really suggesting the poster would kill the Minister...although he did say he would do everything he could...

SeanW

Deleted User wrote:

Yeah, I got all paranoid alright. I suspect the original poster is trying to foist legislation on this country on the sly just like McDowell, so your analogy/comparison is perfect.

What exactly are you referring to?

And as for the poster who said he would do "everything he could" to stop McDowell, it should be assumed (though not necessarily) that he meant any legal, democratic measure, like campaigning for Fine Gael which I think was mentioned. No clue what you were getting at with the JFK reference.

ballooba

What I got from Conor74's post was that he was making a joke.

Some might say in bad taste, but a joke all the same. Take offence if you must but I didn't.

SeanW I would hope that most people would assume what you derived from my post i.e. legal, democratic means.

Zebra3

Interesting to see McDowell on the news today. Seems like he's 'suddenly' realised there's a gun problem in Ireland. :rolleyes:

SeanW

SeanW wrote:

What exactly are you referring to?

Sigh

The initial poster suggested that MacDowell was trying to foist something on us on the sly, using the Irish language as a cloak.

I said that that was paranoid.

Someone else suggested that I was paranoid for suggesting that the initial poster was...paranoid.

I merely pointed out that I wasn't suggesting the initial poster was passing off legislation that would bind everyone. I felt it wasn't a good comparison at all. Suggesting that someone is paranoid is not, in itself, paranoid.

SeanW wrote:

it should be assumed

Should it?

Good, I can go smoking on the grassy knoll again.

ballooba

Deleted User wrote:

Should it?

Good, I can go smoking on the grassy knoll again.

Innocence (should be assumed) until proven guilty



Yes indeed it should.

Cork

Is Michael Mc Dowell a gaelgoir? ...

I don't know - but he is certainly one of the best TDs in the Dail.

Some don't like him for standing up to the Provos or their supporters. But why criticise him for using our natioal language or implementing legalisation already agreed at an EU level?