Is Michael Mc Dowell a gaelgoir? ...

flogen

Cork wrote:

But why criticise him for using our natioal language or implementing legalisation already agreed at an EU level?

Criticism is deserved if he is using our national language without relevant skill, and criticism is deserved if he is trying to put a law through that will impact upon our civil liberties.

I like that he stands up to the provo's, I don't like that he names and shames people without evidence just because the DPP can't get a conviction on them in the proper avenues.

Judt

I think that as much as the Irish language is our national heritage, it has not been taught in a particularly good way. In the old system, which I would presume the majority of those posting here were taught under in primary school (where you essentially either get the language or get left behind into secondary and beyond), many teachers complained that it was an out of date and not particularly effective method of teaching. Hence the change in syllabus. Indeed, the old system was so outdated that I recall a chapter on begging travellers which would send the PC brigade into a tizzle if they saw it published today…

In primary school I never really picked up on the language, and can I or the legions of other Irish people who do not actually speak Irish be blamed? Quite aside from methods of teaching, when you have a language which is not the primary spoken language in day-to-day affairs in most areas then you are going to encounter problems. Indeed, I do believe that speaking English has helped us economically and in other ways in the past, when we've been quite happy to exploit what the British gave us linguistically after they took away our native language.

Now, to points on people in the Dáil and the general public being able to understand the speech or tough, or to the issue of perhaps mandating that so much Dáil work should be done through Irish, would be folly in my opinion. Whatever we say about Irish being our national language, one must face facts in that many people simply do not speak the language for various reasons – what about the legions of people who left school before or just after their inter cert, for example? Or those taught under the old regime in primary, and then left behind when they couldn't grasp the language? "Tough, you can just deal with it and no matter that we're leaving you out of the democratic process."? Frankly, I think that Irish freedom fighters in the past fought for freedom first and the Irish language second…

Irish shouldn't be such a disadvantaged language, but the fact of the matter is that it is. All we can do now is try and rectify this with new methods of educating young people in primary to speak and enjoy the language. In the meantime you cannot simply get on a high horse and tell those who cannot speak the language that that's their tough luck.

Diorraing

Judt wrote:

Irish shouldn't be such a disadvantaged language, but the fact of the matter is that it is. All we can do now is try and rectify this with new methods of educating young people in primary to speak and enjoy the language. In the meantime you cannot simply get on a high horse and tell those who cannot speak the language that that's their tough luck.

One of the best ways of rectifying the language is to show people that it is useful. If we conduct the running of our country with some Irish people will see that it has uses and then make more of an effort to learn it

SeanW

Conor74, I am the original poster, and much as my post may seem "paranoid" to you, I stand over what I said.

There is always going to be concern about the ability of the State to pry into peoples private business to prevent/punish crime and terrorism versus the rights of law-abiding citizens not to be secretley spied on and harassed.

So any attempt to deal with this balance, should in my view be as open and transparent as possible - unless the proposer has something to hide - and that this minister uses English primarly but chooses THIS TIME to get all cultural, and deliver a speech about it in a language many Irish people don't undersand, or in some cases care about, would make me want to look at this legislation very carefully.

Not only that but his speech was being criticised as being poorly worded and incomprehensible by the listening gaeilgeors such as Michael D.

This would indicate to me that McDowell didn't really know what he was saying, but rather utilised his right to make the speech as Gaeilge for some other reason.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this legislation or that there's anything bad about it per-se, indeed it many be perfectly fine and agreeable. But McDowells actions make this look very dodgy in my opinion, and I would be cautious about it. That's all.

constitutionus

its patently obvious that the reason macdowel did his speach in irish is the same one certain politicians use when forced to apologise to the dail I.E the vast majority of the population havent a clue what he's on about.
and comparing irish to greek is ridiculous, a better analogy would be to have a greek politician reading leglislation in macedonian:)

whats bothers me and what no ones actually mentioned yet is thats this is EU leglislation thats protected by previous treaties. in other words boys and girls its a fait acomplie.

this is going to be law and theres nothing anyone can do about it.

it was nice to have sovereignty once :rolleyes:

Judt

Diorraing wrote:

One of the best ways of rectifying the language is to show people that it is useful. If we conduct the running of our country with some Irish people will see that it has uses and then make more of an effort to learn it

Well in this particular case, I wouldn't want my reason for having to learn the language to be so that I can ensure that my government doesn't sneak one by me. And I think you can, on the whole, say that the adult population who do not speak Irish to any major degree do not have the time or inclination to pick up the language - our time in the education system has been done, time is limited and apart from said government one-liners, the reasons for learning the language beyond promoting cultural élan are few and far between. Teach the children to speak and love the language, but punishing adults for not speaking it - through no fault of their own, as neither I nor any of my peers set the curriculum by which we were taught as children - merely promotes an "anti-Irish" feeling towards the language.

If it is seen to be used, for example, as a tool to seemingly push past otherwise debate-sparking legislation, or if you have the pro-Irish lobby getting snobbish and saying "Tough" if you can't understand it, well this attitude will be passed onto children who, for the first time in a long time, are being given a real chance to become fluent Irish speakers in their formulate years.

constitutionus

constitutionus wrote:

whats bothers me and what no ones actually mentioned yet is thats this is EU leglislation thats protected by previous treaties. in other words boys and girls its a fait acomplie.

this is going to be law and theres nothing anyone can do about it.

it was nice to have sovereignty once :rolleyes:

Well said,further highlighting how undemocratic the EU actually is. Excerpts from a recent interview with a former Sovier dissident:

"The European Parliament is elected on the basis of proportional representation, which is not true representation. And what does it vote on? The percentage of fat in yoghurt, that kind of thing. It is ridiculous. It is given the task of the Supreme Soviet. The average MP can speak for six minutes per year in the Chamber. That is not a real parliament."

Calling it "blackmail," Bukovksy pointed out that citizens in countries like Ireland, Denmark and Switzerland were being forced to join the EU via means of endless referendums despite the fact that they consistently vote against it.

In other words they can do whatever they want and there's f all we can do about it. And all because of the Nice Treaty. Thanks Bertie

www.threatstodemocracy.com

ballooba

I think talking about the rights and wrongs of the Irish language and so on is merely fudging the issue. The issue at hand is why the language was used.

Someone mentioned above that this is a "loophole". Loophole's are mechanisms employed by wrongdoers to avoid the issue at hand i.e. the offending behaviour.

Is this something we should accept or come to accept from our expect of our representatives.

simu

Judt wrote:

if you have the pro-Irish lobby getting snobbish and saying "Tough" if you can't understand it, well this attitude will be passed onto children who, for the first time in a long time, are being given a real chance to become fluent Irish speakers in their formulate years.

Is there some pro-Irish lobby out there calling for the banning of speeches given in Irish from being translated into English? Coz I ain't heard of any...

Judt

simu wrote:

Is there some pro-Irish lobby out there calling for the banning of speeches given in Irish from being translated into English? Coz I ain't heard of any...

If an Irish speaking TD says that the translation is poor then you obviously have a problem. Either do it well or don't do it at all.

arbeitsscheuer

Judt wrote:

If an Irish speaking TD says that the translation is poor then you obviously have a problem. Either do it well or don't do it at all.

This would be my attitude also.

simu

Judt wrote:

If an Irish speaking TD says that the translation is poor then you obviously have a problem. Either do it well or don't do it at all.

No, he said the speech read out in Irish by McD. was poor. It was presumably first written in English and then translated into (poor) Irish by somebody for him before he read it out (or maybe he tried to do it himself?). My point was that English translations are provided for things read out in Irish afaik so it's not like people who read things out in Irish are saying "tough luck" to non-Irish speakers for not understanding.

constitutionus

simu wrote:

No, he said the speech read out in Irish by McD. was poor. It was presumably first written in English and then translated into (poor) Irish by somebody for him before he read it out (or maybe he tried to do it himself?). My point was that English translations are provided for things read out in Irish afaik so it's not like people who read things out in Irish are saying "tough luck" to non-Irish speakers for not understanding.

except for the public,you know , the people who vote? who unlike the opposition might actually vote for these guys and might think twice if they heard the speech in english. AFAIK the speech isnt even available in english on the web (but correct me if im wrong:D )

there's no way around the fact this stinks to high heaven and its a deliberate act to bypass public debate. i mean honestly, how many news reporters in the sennate actually knew what he was on about?

simu

constitutionus wrote:

except for the public,you know , the people who vote? who unlike the opposition might actually vote for these guys and might think twice if they heard the speech in english. AFAIK the speech isnt even available in english on the web (but correct me if im wrong:D )

there's no way around the fact this stinks to high heaven and its a deliberate act to bypass public debate. i mean honestly, how many news reporters in the sennate actually knew what he was on about?

Yeah, the same public that watches Oireachtas Report with zeal every time it's on air? There should have been translations to English available - of course, maybe our houses of parliament are so badly organised that this is not so but tbh the furore over the whole thing shows that all McD. did was draw attention to his speech and I think he could have prediceted this so I'm not convinced that it was some plot on his part to sneak legislation through.

Sand

Mick isnt an Irish speaker, hes just taking the piss out of the idea that its our first national language. As much as the Clare country council (afair) noting that they spent thousands on transalating their anuual reports to Irish as required by law, but no one actually asked for an Irish one.

But who cares about reality, when we know that theoretically everyone speaks Irish.

SeanW

Sand wrote:

Mick isnt an Irish speaker, hes just taking the piss out of the idea that its our first national language. As much as the Clare country council (afair) noting that they spent thousands on transalating their anuual reports to Irish as required by law, but no one actually asked for an Irish one.

But who cares about reality, when we know that theoretically everyone speaks Irish.

Finally: Someone with the nuts to tell it like it is! Best post in this thread.

GaryOR

A Dhia, I decide for the first time ever to go to the Politics fourm, and one of the first things I see is Sean (I hate Irish) W, baytin' (sic) out another anti-Irish post..

Maith Thú a Shéan, Maith thú..

ballooba

Sand wrote:

Mick isnt an Irish speaker, hes just taking the piss out of the idea that its our first national language. As much as the Clare country council (afair) noting that they spent thousands on transalating their anuual reports to Irish as required by law, but no one actually asked for an Irish one.

But who cares about reality, when we know that theoretically everyone speaks Irish.

That would be alright if he was talking about the price of tomatoes. But he's talking about an emotive issue such as people's right to privacy.

This comes down to people like those involved in the McBrearty scandal having access to your most intimate details without your knowledge or permission.

Elmo

"I circulated an exact translation of the speech in English to all of the members at the same time because I knew that, like myself, many of the members of the Seanad wouldn't be in a position to follow proceedings on a technical matter if they didn't have a translation available to them."

In his own words he isn't a gealigor but can Read As Gealige. Which is good. Always good not to really know what your saying but that you have a written translation to which you can refer back to.

Quote take from the Irish Times.

SeanW

GaryOR wrote:

I decide for the first time ever to go to the Politics fourm, and one of the first things I see is Sean (I hate Irish) W, baytin' (sic) out another anti-Irish post..

Not this again :mad: For the last time I don't hate the Irish language, any more than Russian or French, or indeed the languages more relevant in modern Ireland like Polish and Mandarin, I'm just sick of the nonsensical politicial and government (gaelgeoiri) stance on it and the constantly ramming it down our throats.

80 years of linguistic-fascism has achieved less than nothing.

Except its handy to have Irish as an "official" language when you want to try to pull a fast one.

A Dhia,
....
Maith Thú a Shéan, Maith thú..

No idea what you're on about mate.

BTW You don't seem to be the only gaeilgeoir who "just decided" to start posting in the politics just now, half the Gaeilge forum crew came out in force after I started this thread ...

NavanJunction1

The good minister is a grand son of Eoin McNeill of 1916 cancellation fame and is an Irish speaker in the sense that he can

His grand father was very prominent in Conradh na Gaeilge / Gaelic League.

Evolution set in, a civil war happened and the PDs were formed. McDowell jumped ship from Fine Gael to the PDs, making PDs Fine Gael like when it came to posturing on crime, policing etc.

He can speak the lingo, but does not seem passionate about it.

Elmo

I would have assumed that McD is actually fairly fluent in the Irish lanuage with his background. 1. His family History (Don't mention the border) and 2. He was a Solicitor/Barrister.

I some how don't think he was coming to the conclusion that Irish isn't important but he could have at least translated the speach correctly. I mean can you imagine if McD had doen the speach in English (or any other lanuage), full of Gramatical errors, it could be total taken out of context. You have to take each word in any complex contract or bill seriously, a word out of place and your ****ing yourself.

I don't like McD, but I don't think he was suggesting that Irish is a waste of time. What he was doing was preventing questions being asked, at least that is better then not answering questions.

I haven't read the speach in Irish or English, and I don't know much about the bill or whatever it is. What McD has done has removed the enphasis from what he was speaking about to a disscussion on the Irish Lanuage. Maith U McD. Avoid avoid avoid, the 3 A's in politics.

Really we all need to read the bill or whatever and then start taking about it and weather or not it is good.

rsynnott

I can't help feeling that all government business should be transacted, or at least translated to, the real world language of the people (that is English). How many people can actually speak Irish well enough for legislative purposes? Very much less than half the population, certainly.

Elmo

There are a 100,000 native speakers. Then their are all the people that when to Gealscoilena (sp?) and a few more that suggest that they speak some of the Irish lanuage.

Note how this converstation still remains about the Irish Lanuage and we have yet to discuss the document contents that we are talking about.

If the government where serious about retaining the lanuage they would put in more support for it. (That comment is neither anti or pro Gealige, it is simply a fact.)

monument

Freelancer wrote:

Its not like he's deviously sneaking things into the statute books by putting little clauses in in irish but more that he's ensuring the debate about such laws are quickly and painlessly over and done with.

Not "deviously sneaking things into the statute books", just "he's ensuring the debate about such laws are quickly and painlessly", hmm.., interesting.

flogen wrote:

They can now do one of the following; demand the Irish government speaks in English and English only or get off their arses and learn their first language.

Or just make proper translations mandatory? Like McDowell did as quoted above. The question is was this handed out before or after McDowell's speech.

SeanW wrote:

I'm guessing that many of our TDs, like a lot of Irish people, can't speak Irish, either very well or at all. For all the linguistic facists ramming this gibberish down our throats, we largely can't even speak the language.

First Language or not, that's the reality.

Some people don’t like reality.

Sand wrote:

Mick isnt an Irish speaker, hes just taking the piss out of the idea that its our first national language. As much as the Clare country council (afair) noting that they spent thousands on transalating their anuual reports to Irish as required by law, but no one actually asked for an Irish one.

But who cares about reality, when we know that theoretically everyone speaks Irish.

I had my reply to SeanW's post written before I read this, honestly.

Maskhadov wrote:

i heard Mc Dowell made heavy work of going through the entire bill as Gaegile. Personally I belive that 50% of items in the Dail and Seanad should be in Irish.

Why?

Elmo

Why?

If there was serious government effort to promot Irish they would be.

McD is fairly fluent in Irish as I said before (take a look at his background, Solicitor/Barraster and Eoin McNeill (Don't mention the border) )

Again nice to see another post with nothing to do with the bill, speech or whatever.

An a maith ar fad, McD.

Is maith liom é.

SeanW

monument wrote:

Some people don’t like reality.

Most gaelgeoirs live in a reality-free zone.

If the government where serious about retaining the lanuage they would put in more support for it. (That comment is neither anti or pro Gealige, it is simply a fact.)

For example, the government has not dropped the useless compulsory Irish requirement even though things like European languages and IT literacy are far more important these days.

That seems like a government committed to Gaeilge IMHO.

monument

Elmo wrote:

If there was serious government effort to promot Irish they would be.

At least then no one could give out about an empty Dail.

Elmo wrote:

Again nice to see another post with nothing to do with the bill, speech or whatever.

Correction - My main and first comment was directly replying to another poster’s comments on the speech.

Elmo wrote:

An a maith ar fad, McD.

Is maith liom é.

If you're going to reply to my comments could you please keep your full post in English, thank you.

Elmo

If you're going to reply to my comments could you please keep your full post in English, thank you.

Na bi dana, ta mo litiur agus mo gramadach i ngealige ufascach.

Nil aon feabhina agam ag caint foin an teanga eile.

Ta se talamhilteach (l?) cheapim.

Nil tu ablta a duirt cen teang a usoide me i mo phosti.

Bron orm don an gach gealigor ag leabh an rud seo.

SeanW

Eh??? You seem to be doing what Michael McDowell was doing with his speech. What are you on about?